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Thursday, August 23, 2012

Dayn Perry: Why do we care about steroids in MLB but not in the NFL?

With all that said, though, the NFL’s richer and deeper history of PED use should invite more outrage. Let’s be frank: while we’re not certain to what extent steroid use affects a player’s ability to play baseball, we do know that it makes a much better football player. Football, of course, is a sport that relies on size and raw strength to a much greater extent than does baseball. To gaze upon your average NFL player and see nothing but the work of genetic good fortune and hard work requires a level of credulity that should elude you.

Moreover, that the cycling of anabolic steroids leads to bigger and stronger football players and, hence, to on-field violence of an increasing scale should concern those who worry about the future of football and those who play it. The NFL tests for PEDs, yes, but when those tests turn up positive, it’s back-page stuff. In 2006, Shawne Merriman made the Pro Bowl after testing positive for steroids. In 2010, Brian Cushing won a re-vote for AP Defensive Rookie of the Year despite having tested positive for banned substances. And so on.

Still and yet, it’s baseball players who are subjected to public floggings far more often. That’s fine, as it goes, but it’s curious that such unequal treatment persists despite what we know about steroid use in football. Put simply, steroids in football almost certainly have a greater effect on competitive integrity than they do in baseball, they’ve been around longer in football, and they help make it a far more dangerous game.

So why don’t we care?

Thanks to Benny.

Repoz Posted: August 23, 2012 at 04:23 PM | 66 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: steroids

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   1. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4216231)
Because MLB is awesome and the NFL is not.
   2. PASTE Thinks This Trout Kid Might Be OK (Zeth) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 04:54 PM (#4216232)
Because football is a less destructive surrogate for war and we expect our warriors to be as beefy as possible. If we're honest with ourselves, we like football players being on steroids.

I've heard for years that steroids are as ubiquitous in the NBA as they ever were in MLB, and no one really cares about that either. As for explaining that, well, no sport's fans are as attached to its history and tradition and the myth of its own purity quite like baseball's.
   3. Gonfalon B. Posted: August 23, 2012 at 05:13 PM (#4216244)
Because steroid use is more harmonious with football's bullshit narrative than it is with baseball's bullshit narrative.
   4. Steve Treder Posted: August 23, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4216247)
Because steroid use is more harmonious with football's ######## narrative than it is with baseball's ######## narrative.

Nails it.
   5. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: August 23, 2012 at 05:21 PM (#4216249)
no sport's fans are as attached to its history and tradition and the myth of its own purity quite like baseball's.


I think this is the big issue. NFL records are fairly meaningless to most fans and when they fall the occasion is celebrated, there is little comparison of the game today vs. yesterday. Additionally, the history of the game prior to Super Bowl I is largely ignored. Baseball records are revered and when they fall there is always discussion of the way the game has changed, hell, when the most famous record, Ruth's 60, was broken there was a debate about 162 vs. 154 games and that pre-dates the Super Bowl era. And of course the history of the game gets much more attention than it does.

Just by way of example, the New York Giants have several lovely t-shirts on their web site proclaiming them as "4 time Super Bowl Champions" rather than "8 time NFL champions". It would be like the Yankees saying they were 7 time World Series champions and ignoring the pre-division era titles.

EDIT: Or y'know, what Gonfalon said.
   6. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: August 23, 2012 at 05:23 PM (#4216252)
The serious answer is two-fold:

1. The vast majority of NFLers are treated as and seen to be interchangable, anonymous pieces of meat. Strip-mine, next man up, repeat.

2. Steroid use in the NFL doesn't affect the play balance. It doesn't matter if the amassed pieces of meat fighting for turf are 270 or 330 pounds. Steroid use in baseball effectively shrinks the ballparks.
   7. Moeball Posted: August 23, 2012 at 05:33 PM (#4216259)
Because no one understood the difference in the attitudes of the two sports better than George Carlin, you've heard it all before but it's worth repeating 'cause it's just funny:

And finally, the objectives of the two games are completely different:

In football the object is for the quarterback, also known as the field general, to be on target with his aerial assault, riddling the defense by hitting his receivers with deadly accuracy in spite of the blitz, even if he has to use the shotgun. With short bullet passes and long bombs, he marches his troops into enemy territory, balancing this aerial assault with a sustained ground attack that punches holes in the forward wall of the enemy’s defensive line.

In baseball the object is to go home! And to be safe! – I hope I’ll be safe at home!

   8. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 05:40 PM (#4216261)
#6 is nearly as funny as #7 - but for completely different reasons.
   9. Dale Sams Posted: August 23, 2012 at 06:02 PM (#4216274)
Any article that distracts away from the heads at MLB Network proposing ludicrous #### like "Take 10 games off the standings" is allright with me.
   10. Walt Davis Posted: August 23, 2012 at 06:03 PM (#4216276)
Because Terry Bradshaw is dumber than 12 dogs?
   11. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 06:03 PM (#4216277)

Who's this "we" you're referring to?
   12. Joey B. is being stalked by a (Gonfa) loon Posted: August 23, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4216285)
"Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'."

-Mark Twain
   13. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 06:38 PM (#4216295)
I can only conclude from #6 that SBB has never seen a football game.
   14. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 06:43 PM (#4216296)
because of Barry Bonds
   15. Eddo Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:00 PM (#4216300)
My personal feelings (re-posted from another thread on BTF):
Eddo Posted: January 13, 2010 at 01:57 AM (#3436122)
You know, I think partly we romanticize baseball records to a degree we don't in other sports, but I also suspect it has something to do with the fact that since baseball players look more like us than do players in other sports (e.g. than 7-foot basketball acrobats or 6-5, 250 lb. football players that run a 4.5), we think those stars could be us if only we had worked harder or had better coaching or whatever. The use of PEDs seems to violate the illusion.

I've held the same belief for quite some time, with a little more elaboration:

When we think of the best baseball players, they do something physically better than anyone else. Albert Pujols hits the ball harder than anyone else; Ichiro Suzuki runs faster than anyone else; Ken Griffey, Jr., covers more ground in center field than anyone else; Mickey Mantle hit the ball farther than anyone else.

However, when we think of the best football players, they do something mentally better than anyone else. Plenty of quarterbacks throw the ball harder than Peyton Manning, but Manning is the best because he knows to whom and when to throw the ball in a way no one else does. Plenty of quarterbacks were more physically gifted than Joe Montana, but he always managed to keep his wits under pressure better than anyone else did.

(I don't necessarily agree completely with the assessments of these specific players, but this is the way they've been perceived by the general public over the course of their careers.)

The point is, we believe that physical gifts separate the greatest baseball players from the very good, while mental or emotional attributes do the same for football players.
   16. Cowboy Popup Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:01 PM (#4216301)
I think a factor is that football players wear helmets, so you never see their faces unless they are famous, or at least important enough to get sideline close ups. I know what Nick Punto, Jayson Nix, John McDonald, Sam Fuld and a bunch of other scrubs look like and I'm not even sure I spelled all their names right. It humanizes them.

To pick football players that I really liked in college that are now in the pros, I have no idea what Robert Sands face looks like. Or Bruce Irvin. Or even Noel Devine, who was a four year star at WVU. Then again, it could just be me.
   17. Justin T., Director of Somethin Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4216303)
Why do we still wonder about this?
   18. Steve Treder Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:16 PM (#4216306)
Why do we still wonder about this?

Seriously. Hasn't this been thrashed out a few thousand times already?
   19. TerpNats Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:20 PM (#4216307)
As long as the hallowed quarterbacks don't take steroids, no one's going to care. It's the anonymous grunters on both sides of the line who are treated like cattle or WWI doughboys -- easily replaceable.
   20. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:21 PM (#4216309)
Seriously. Hasn't this been thrashed out a few thousand times already?

Yeah, and besides... [1] nailed it.
   21. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:22 PM (#4216310)
If Shawne Merriman was a baseball player, he'd be in his prime instead of washed up at 28.
   22. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:29 PM (#4216319)
Because MLB is awesome and the NFL is not.

Done in one.

Executive producer, Roone Arledge.
   23. Steve Treder Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:31 PM (#4216321)
Yeah, and besides... [1] nailed it.

Well, my view is along the lines of [3], but the point is this is a discussion that has long since been conducted, exhaustively.
   24. SoSH U at work Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4216324)
In 2006, Shawne Merriman made the Pro Bowl after testing positive for steroids. In 2010, Brian Cushing won a re-vote for AP Defensive Rookie of the Year despite having tested positive for banned substances. And so on.


While I agree with the premise that we care more about our baseball players doping than our football stars,* I don't think these examples say as much as Dayn and others suggest. Yes, Merriman made the Pro Bowl, but that accomplishment wasn't greeted with shrugs, but considerable opposition. Enough that the commissioner immediately determined that anyone testing positive wouldn't be able to earn such distinctions. As for Cushing, yes he won the AP's revote. But they had one. When Braun won the MVP, but before the overturn, the BBWAA decided they wouldn't revote the MVP. It's hard to see how either decision is more outragey than the other.

As for why we care more for our baseball guys**, I think SBB and TerpNats have the key reason. Football players, other than a handful of visible stars, are anonymous and replaceable. If Peyton or Tom Brady or Drew Brees tested positive, I think that would activate the rageometer in a hurry.

** For the record, as a baseball fan, I consider the fact that we care about our baseball players and not about our gridiron ones to be, ultimately, a good thing.

   25. Steve Treder Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:43 PM (#4216328)
as a baseball fan, I consider the fact that we care about our baseball players and not about our gridiron ones to be, ultimately, a good thing.

Are you serious with this?
   26. SoSH U at work Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:52 PM (#4216333)
Are you serious with this?


Of course. I think it's good for the sport that fans identify with the players, both the current ones and the ones that came before, that they don't just consider them anonymous and disposable. That their acheievements and records and legacies matter. I don't know why that would be viewed as a negative.

That fans don't think the same about the NFL players is decidedly not a good thing for that sport.

   27. TerpNats Posted: August 23, 2012 at 07:56 PM (#4216336)
For the record, as a baseball fan, I consider the fact that we care about our baseball players and not about our gridiron ones to be, ultimately, a good thing.
Not for the football players.
   28. Steve Treder Posted: August 23, 2012 at 08:01 PM (#4216338)
Of course. I think it's good for the sport that fans identify with the players, both the current ones and the ones that came before, that they don't just consider them anonymous and disposable.

But it's therefore a good thing that we "not care about our gridiron ones"?

Look, to the extent that the problem with PEDs in sports is that they might endanger the health of athletes, that's entirely a good thing. But to then say that it's a good thing that a fan should decide to care about the health of athletes in this sport but not that one utterly undercuts the generosity of spirit of the first principle.

   29. SoSH U at work Posted: August 23, 2012 at 08:10 PM (#4216343)
But it's therefore a good thing that we "not care about our gridiron ones"?


I tried to clarify that in the next paragraph. It's good for baseball that fans care about it, and it's not good for the NFL that its fans are indifferent. As a baseball fan first, and well, last, I view things through the lens of what things mean for baseball.

That this attitude has the side effect of overzealous and oft-illogical anger over the use of PEDs is unfortunate, but the fact that we care about our ballplayers is ultimately a good thing for the sport and its future, I believe.
   30. Steve Treder Posted: August 23, 2012 at 08:17 PM (#4216350)
That this attitude has the side effect of overzealous and oft-illogical anger over the use of PEDs is unfortunate, but the fact that we care about our ballplayers is ultimately a good thing for the sport and its future, I believe.

Okay.

I guess I would say that all of our attitudes would be better focused on what's best (and what's right) for everyone, that they're not "our" ballplayers, and that the most important thing isn't necessarily what's a good thing for any given sport.
   31. adenzeno Posted: August 23, 2012 at 08:23 PM (#4216352)
What 1 said..Succinct
   32. Gamingboy Posted: August 23, 2012 at 08:56 PM (#4216373)
Because LOOK VIOLENCE, GAMBLING AND YOU ONLY NEED TO PAY ATTENTION 1.5 DAYS A WEEK, OOOOOOOOOOHHHH, SHINY!


"Only kings, presidents, editors, and people with tapeworms have the right to use the editorial 'we'."

-Mark Twain


I believe he included visibly pregnant women in that.
   33. GGC don't think it can get longer than a novella Posted: August 23, 2012 at 09:20 PM (#4216392)
YOU ONLY NEED TO PAY ATTENTION 1.5 DAYS A WEEK


As I get older and have more responsibilities, I find that a point in the NFL's favor.
   34. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: August 23, 2012 at 09:31 PM (#4216395)
Because of baseball's love of numbers and history. Some offensive tackle juiced? He doesn't have any stats, so *yawn.*

Also, because of the media's sick need for baseball to constantly have a crisis.
   35. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 09:57 PM (#4216403)
Aren't we overlooking the NFL's testing regimen? Other than Merriman and Cushing, who else has tested positive? Are we really to believe that there are considerably more baseball players using PEDs than those who play football, despite there being more NFL teams and rosters that are way larger?
   36. JJ1986 Posted: August 23, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4216407)
Other than Merriman and Cushing, who else has tested positive?


Julius Peppers, and a large number of his teammates including the punter, did at one point.
   37. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: August 23, 2012 at 10:15 PM (#4216411)
Julius Peppers, and a large number of his teammates including the punter, did at one point.

Thanks, but weren't all of those individuals tagged pre-Merriman?

So permit me to rephrase the question: Five MLB players have tested positive for PEDs in 2011 alone. How many NFL players have tested positive since Merriman did in '06? Cushing in '10 and who else?
   38. hokieneer Posted: August 23, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4216418)
To pick football players that I really liked in college that are now in the pros, I have no idea what Robert Sands face looks like. Or Bruce Irvin. Or even Noel Devine, who was a four year star at WVU. Then again, it could just be me.


That one is easy. Bruce Irvin looks like the Predator
   39. Eddo Posted: August 23, 2012 at 10:54 PM (#4216425)
So permit me to rephrase the question: Five MLB players have tested positive for PEDs in 2011 alone. How many NFL players have tested positive since Merriman did in '06? Cushing in '10 and who else?

That's a good point - the NFL has at least had an official punishment plan for much longer than MLB has. One of the big issues for baseball was that players were cheating, but had no actual consequences.
   40. Roger Cedeno's Spleen Posted: August 23, 2012 at 11:04 PM (#4216431)
Football at that level is so dangerous that the risks of steroids appear insignificant by comparison... Just playing in the NFL will do more damage to your body and health than any conceivable doping regimen.

Baseball is a much safer sport than football. Many of its fans see it as a more "civilized" sport. PED's and the health risks associated with them add a level of ugliness and danger to the game that did not previously exist...
   41. JJ1986 Posted: August 23, 2012 at 11:06 PM (#4216433)
Wikipedia says 10 players have been suspended, but the chart mixes PEDs and recreational drugs. I think Kevin and Pat Williams are the most famous.

edit: Apparently Dwayne Bowe was suspended a few years ago and he's not on the wikipedia list, so it's probably not worth much.
   42. robinred Posted: August 23, 2012 at 11:24 PM (#4216444)
Looks like PEDs are taken most seriously in cycling:

Lance Armstrong will be banned from cycling for life and stripped of his record seven Tour de France titles after he decided to stop challenging the USADA's allegations that he took PEDs
   43. Hector Moreda & The Generalissimo Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:01 AM (#4216451)
USADA can only recommend, they have no power to strip titles. I gather that they are seen as somewhat of a joke, in the international cycling community.

Lance's statement is pretty detailed: http://www.cyclingnews.com/news/lance-armstrongs-full-statement-on-usada
   44. robinred Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:19 AM (#4216457)
Don't know anything about it, other than the USADA guy specifically says they can, but that the International Cycling Union is the sport's "governing body" according to articles.
   45. The Clarence Thomas of BBTF (scott) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:36 AM (#4216459)
A quick google search shows 4 NFL players suspended 4 games from just this offseason/pre-season, on the first page.

PED use is rampant in the NFL to a degree that vastly outstrips baseball. Anyone who seriously tries to argue otherwise is a fool or making money doing so.
   46. Cooper Nielson Posted: August 24, 2012 at 12:58 AM (#4216466)
#1 and #3 are the correct answers, but isn't it likely that there is some racial element involved?

Of the NFL, NBA, and MLB, MLB is pretty clearly the "whitest" league (or at least the "non-blackest"). Someone during the NBA lockout made a comment about "plantation owners" and I think there is probably some truth to that -- also in the NFL. Do we (fans in general) think of NFL players as "interchangeable, anonymous pieces of meat" because of the nature of the game, or because of the way they look? I wonder. Maybe fans (in general) care less about the well-being of/have lower expectations for black athletes playing predominantly black sports.

It seems to me that if Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers tested positive for steroids, it would be a pretty big deal.
   47. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 08:04 AM (#4216527)
I think a factor is that football players wear helmets, so you never see their faces unless they are famous, or at least important enough to get sideline close ups. I know what Nick Punto, Jayson Nix, John McDonald, Sam Fuld and a bunch of other scrubs look like and I'm not even sure I spelled all their names right. It humanizes them.


With the rise of Fantasy Football this is no longer true. Most football fans recognize most of the skill guys now, including back-ups. You know what those baseball players look like because you are a very devoted baseball fan, most fans would have no clue who those guys are. I'd recognize Punto, and certainly know who the rest are, but put them in a lineup and I would only guess at who they were based on looks.
   48. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 24, 2012 at 08:28 AM (#4216531)
I#1 and #3 are the correct answers, but isn't it likely that there is some racial element involved?....

It seems to me that if Tom Brady or Aaron Rodgers tested positive for steroids, it would be a pretty big deal.


That's because of their position and (in their specific cases) their accomplishments much more than it is their race. I don't know about outside of Washington, but in Redskins Nation it'd be like the second assassination of JFK if "RG3" tested positive.

(BTW if you want to see media suckup, the RG3 phenomenon in Washington is like Derek Jeter x Bryce Harper, squared, and he's yet to take his first regular season snap.)
   49. Gamingboy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 08:31 AM (#4216536)
Well, the thing is, while fantasy football may make you recognize the NAMES of fourth wide receivers and such, you still really only see the FACES of the QBs and some of the charismatic guys (primarily wide receivers, running backs, and Linebackers like Ray Lewis- If mankind was about to go into final battle against an alien invasion, I'd totally want Ray Lewis to rally the troops).

Baseball, meanwhile, everybody has a face at all times, and while casual fans perhaps only recognize the big stars and the guys on their favorite team, the fact is: you can see their faces. And baseball players all, more or less, look like average Joes, while all of the padding and helmets makes even the most average Joe of NFL players look superhuman.

Which is really ironic, as it really strikes you then when you see a baseball player and a football player next to each other. I once saw Cal Ripken shaking hands and talking with Jim Kelly, and even taking into account that Ripken was famously tall for a SS, it was kind of shocking to see how imposing Ripken was compared to Kelly. But if Jim Kelly had been back in his playing days and in full pads and gear, it probably would have been the other way around.
   50. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 09:23 AM (#4216577)
you still really only see the FACES of the QBs and some of the charismatic guys (primarily wide receivers, running backs, and Linebackers like Ray Lewis


Yeah, but QB's, RB's, WR's and LB's make up a large portion of the players. Sure, lineman are for the most part completely overlooked (aside from defensive ends), safeties, fullbacks and 3rd/4th WR's are too. But I just don't buy that the average fan would recognize a utility infielder and not a tight end.


And baseball players all, more or less, look like average Joes, while all of the padding and helmets makes even the most average Joe of NFL players look superhuman.


I don't know, seeing football players in the ESPN Body magazines actually impresses me more than seeing the player in pads. In pads you don't realize just how much of their bulk is muscle. Naked football players are freaking huge.
   51. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4216608)

Wikipedia says 10 players have been suspended, but the chart mixes PEDs and recreational drugs. I think Kevin and Pat Williams are the most famous.


Suspended under the NFL PED policy since 2006:

Brian Cushing (hCG)
John Welbourn (steroids)
Dwayne Bowe (diuretic)
Kevin Williams (diuretic)
Pat Williams (diuretic)
Charles Grant (diuretic)
Will Smith (diuretic)
Grady Jackson (diuretic)
Bryan Pittman (diuretic)
Deuce McAllister (diuretic)
DJ Williams ("non human urine")
Virgil Green (Adderall)
Ryan McBean (unknown PED)
Andre Brown (Adderall - suspension lifted)
Garret Brown (unknown PED)
Mike Neal (Adderall)
Antwan Odom (unknown PED)
Joe Haden (Adderall)
Andre Neblett (unknown PED)
Tyler Sash (Adderall)
Brett Hartman (unknown PED)
Phillip Buchanon (unknown PED)
Gerald McGrath (unknown PED)
Luke Lawton (unknown PED)
David Vobora (unknown PED)
Hollis Thomas (steroids - two time offender)

This is not comprehensive, just what I could find on the Google.
   52. JJ1986 Posted: August 24, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4216628)
Those are almost all defensive guys. No QBs and only Bowe and a retired McAllister who put up any numbers at all. I think people would care more if skill position players were being suspended regularly.
   53. JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 10:30 AM (#4216633)
DJ Williams ("non human urine")

I would love to check out that fake web site!
   54. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: August 24, 2012 at 10:41 AM (#4216642)
DJ Williams ("non human urine")


I would love to check out that fake web site!

Or to see the sequel to Pink Flamingos.
   55. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4216682)
cmon, its like the argument about which is really "America's game"? It used to be baseball, but now with all the time outs, betting, choreographed end zone celebrations, military themed play descriptions and tie ins, and faux outrage over the behavior of some of its players on/off the field, it has to be football. Or eggball has some have called it.
   56. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4216685)

Those are almost all defensive guys. No QBs and only Bowe and a retired McAllister who put up any numbers at all. I think people would care more if skill position players were being suspended regularly.


I remember some outrage over David Boston a long time ago. He was one of the first high profile players suspended, and his change was VERY noticeable. He went from being a skinny wideout at Ohio State to being built like a linebacker.
   57. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4216815)
PED use is rampant in the NFL to a degree that vastly outstrips baseball. Anyone who seriously tries to argue otherwise is a fool or making money doing so.

While I am not making an argument, I am curious to know why this is a given. Have their been that many more players suspended? Are there widely known loopholes in the testing program of the NFL?
   58. Joey B. is being stalked by a (Gonfa) loon Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4216826)
My favorite picture of Mr. All-Natural, LaRon Landry.
   59. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:17 PM (#4216838)
Have their been that many more players suspended? Are there widely known loopholes in the testing program of the NFL?


Do people have eyes (see, for instance, the post immediately preceding this one)?
   60. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:27 PM (#4216848)
Do people have eyes (see, for instance, the post immediately preceding this one)?

So the proof is the tried-and-true "just look at them" test?
   61. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: August 24, 2012 at 01:41 PM (#4216869)
So the proof is the tried-and-true "just look at them" test?


If people are, I dunno, 6'8, weigh 275 pounds & run faster than Billy Hamilton ... they might be ducks. Or something.
   62. STEAGLES is all out of bubblegum Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4216903)
I don't know, seeing football players in the ESPN Body magazines actually impresses me more than seeing the player in pads. In pads you don't realize just how much of their bulk is muscle. Naked football players are freaking huge.
that is an awful picture. if you want to link to an example of a freaking huge football player, at least link to one that hasn't been photoshopped to hell.
   63. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:20 PM (#4216922)
If people are, I dunno, 6'8, weigh 275 pounds & run faster than Billy Hamilton ... they might be ducks. Or something.

OK, but that doesn't really rise to the level of proof of, well, anything.
   64. The Chronicles of Reddick Posted: August 24, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4216945)
Speaking of outrage, I am enjoying some of the complaints from people of this fair land over the "witch-hunt" against the fair haired boy, Lance Armstrong. You would think that the past few weeks would have taught us something about suspending belief in an athlete that did amazing things in a sport that is tainted with doping allegations.
   65. Joey B. is being stalked by a (Gonfa) loon Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4217020)
if you want to link to an example of a freaking huge football player, at least link to one that hasn't been photoshopped to hell.

Ironically, your link doesn't work.
   66. smileyy Posted: August 24, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4217054)
[64] As I said in the other thread about Lance Armstrong, I find Bonds and Armstrong to be very similar -- at a time when the "best" players in the other sports were also dirty, Bonds and Armstrong were dirty and still the best of them all.

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