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Tuesday, December 20, 2011

Deadspin: Legendary Columnist Bill Conlin Resigns Over Forthcoming Philly Inquirer Bombshell

The Philadelphia Inquirer’s top investigative reporter, Nancy Phillips, has written a story containing what we’re told are allegations of child molestation against sportswriter Bill Conlin, a longtime columnist at the rival Daily News. Conlin resigned just moments ago, according to a source at the Daily News.

Conlin, who turns 78 this May, won the Ford C. Frick Award last May. The story supposedly will drop soon (the newspapers publish under a joint-operating agreement, sharing some resources and a website but otherwise competing for the same readers). Conlin has hired an attorney to defend himself against the piece. We’ll have more details on this. For now, we can tell you that Conlin is at his condo in Largo, Fla.

And Bill Conlin’s articles on BTF...

Tripon Posted: December 20, 2011 at 06:47 PM | 283 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, media, obituaries, phillies, rumors, special topics

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   101. Morty Causa Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:28 PM (#4020638)
Taking the press at their word? When they have multiple corroborated accounts of many different incidents I do take the press at their word. This is an award winning investigative reporter doing her job by the book. If this is made up then she just destroyed her career. There is no rumors or innuendo, this is a story with hard facts.


Crap. You have exactly a one-sided tailored account that is not tested in any way. And people are making assumptions at a highly emotional level every which way, just like with the Paterno thing. You don't enough to be so damn sure of anything, I don't care if she got the Nobel Prize for reporting. That's so elementary it boggles the mind you don't know it.

Your attitude is disturbing to me in that it implies you feel he should not be criticized short of a trial. Why would someone without their own secrets feel that way?


Well, your attitude is disturbing, disgusting, and very scary, because it suggests you don't give a #### about anything except rank allegations.
   102. Morty Causa Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:31 PM (#4020640)
Doesn't the public be do this for every story in the news of any nature?


Yes, they do. Should they? Especially take it to such a heated level. Didn't you guys grow up watching movies or reading books about going off on emotional binges when it comes to things like this?
   103. valuearbitrageur Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:33 PM (#4020641)
Yes, let's not forget that there is a lot of lying and misremembering by accusers, too. (30, 40 years ago?) A whole lot of work in psychology has been done in this area. To begin with, your member isn't what you think it is . Let's not forget the McMartin scandal. I'm surprised at how many people here are so eager to sign up for the Insane Clown Lynch Party.


AFAIK none of the victims remember being flown around on broomsticks by Conlin, so it's not a great deal like the McMartin case.

Some of the witnesses were adults at the time, the father who confronted Conlin is one.

And Conlin snap resigns as these allegations are released, not a good sign either.

I don't think Occam's Razor is favoring Conlin on this one.
   104. Kurt Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:33 PM (#4020642)
Wow. From the Inquirer article.

She said she told a female relative, who in turn confided that Conlin had abused her for years when she was a child. The relative, she said, told her that this led to a long estrangement that ended only after he wrote her a 10-page letter of apology.

If this letter still exists, it would seem to put a damper in any defense he might want to offer.
   105. valuearbitrageur Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:36 PM (#4020646)
If it's not the tip of the iceberg, you have to view Conlin in an infinitely more favorable light than Sandusky. Imagine a guy spending 40 years with impulses to do this sort of thing, impulses as strong as most people have toward adults of the opposite sex, and not acting on them.


I think Society can always help these types control their impulses with a nice clean lynching.
   106. BrianBrianson Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:37 PM (#4020648)
Unless you're a juror, a cop, or a friend, you can safely assume that anyone accused of rape by several individuals did it. Four people, typical false reporting rate for rape is ~5% (which is typical for most crimes, except those related to insurance fraud). One report? Might be innocent - benefit of the doubt. Two? Well, there's one of you born every minute? But four - the did it, to something like 99.999% confidence - good enough for you, as a person with no relation to the case, to not worry about the last .001% chance.
   107. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:39 PM (#4020653)
This boggles me a bit...

Conlin has been called all sorts of names and had plenty of extraordinarily heaping helpings of derision ladled onto him for expressing opinions about baseball that most here find stupid/daft/inane/etc.

Now that we have allegations -- and can we at least agree in reading the story that absent some relatively far-ranging conspiracy, they sound like credible allegations -- he's a child molester; we should hold fire?

There are no more repercussions here than there were in the former case.

People expressed opinions that Conlin was a grumpy, has-been idiot for his thoughts on baseball... He still won the Spinks award and is "in" the HoF.

Now people are expressing opinions that he's a shitbag pederast who ought to have his nuts tased repeatedly... and he's still freely walking the streets.

The minute someone legitimately suggests a primate meetup and provides Conlin's address for it -- I see the harm (and imagine Jim 86's the thread), but we can call everyone an idiot for benign reasons like holding stupid opinions about aspects of baseball... but once that someone is accused of a fairly horrific crime, fire must be held?
   108. LargeBill Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:40 PM (#4020654)
78. Morty Causa Posted: December 20, 2011 at 05:38 PM (#4020588)
I read the ####### story. Why don't you wait for the ####### evidence and trial before you slap your mule on the ass and take off hellbent for leather.


Unless more recent charges emerge, there won't be any ######## evidence or trial. We will all reach some conclusion about whether we think he did what he's accused of or not. Some will find the story compelling. Some will think the story might be exaggerated. Some will be certain he has many other victims from over the years. However, regardless of our belief in his guilt or innocence, NONE of us will ever know what happened. He will wait for punishment or redemption in the next world because he isn't likely to get either in this one.
   109. Morty Causa Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:42 PM (#4020655)
107:

Yes. "Fire" should be withheld.

108:

You will know more. Knowledge is freedom, and the predicate for doing the right thing. You don't have to shoot indiscriminately at everything that moves in the dark just because you're frightened. In fact, it's part of the compact that you don't.
   110. tfbg9 Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:44 PM (#4020658)
65-you mean the Teachers' Unions, right? Assh*ole.
   111. LargeBill Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:44 PM (#4020659)
86. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Molina Posted: December 20, 2011 at 05:58 PM (#4020608)
Think I might schedule this Sunday's Sports Reporters on the DVR.


I doubt they will find time to cover this story.
   112. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:45 PM (#4020661)
Crap. You have exactly a one-sided tailored account that is not tested in any way.

Not tested? Are you proposing the Mythbusters put him in the room with a nine-year old and come back in a couple hours to see what happened?
   113. Tom was totally clowned by CW Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:45 PM (#4020663)
Morty,

One-sided tailored account? More like vivid first person testimony from victims of crimes.

You have a choice here, either you are saying that these adults fabricated this so their family could go through hell. Or that the reporter is misrepresenting the facts.

Maybe you think if you cried and said that you just had your hand on her leg we would let it go again.

I am sorry Morty, these people, and all victims, deserve to have their story heard. And Conlin can try and tell his story, explain away the facts. Maybe he has been more carefull for the last 30 odd years, but once his picture gets out there with these allegations somebody will put two and two together and he will be looking at a different kind of retirement. Something he deserves more than a house in Florida.
   114. Textbook Editor Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:46 PM (#4020664)
Last year, Blanchet, Kevin Healey, Karen Healey, and another woman from the neighborhood gave prosecutors videotaped testimony about the abuse they said they suffered at Conlin's hands years ago.


Presumably this testimony was taken under oath (since it was intended to help press charges). This isn't just a bunch of people chatting up a reporter; the 4 accusers in question did present testimony under oath.

Now, what was said in that testimony--and if it differs from what was told the the reporter--certainly is the next shoe to drop here.

I can't emphasize enough how massive a story this is going to be in Philly; Conlin is considered the dean of sportswriters in the city (undeserved, but there it is).

If I'm reading the article correctly, though, there won't be any criminal trial here because the statute of limitations is up. Now, I don't know what the civil statute of limitations might be here, and it's possible at some point these 4 might bring civil charges (or Conlin press civil charges against his 4 accusers), but it seems that--barring any future allegations from a more recent time--Conlin will not stand any kind of criminal trial.
   115. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:47 PM (#4020666)
Conlin has been called all sorts of names and had plenty of extraordinarily heaping helpings of derision ladled onto him for expressing opinions about baseball that most here find stupid/daft/inane/etc.

Now that we have allegations -- and can we at least agree in reading the story that absent some relatively far-ranging conspiracy, they sound like credible allegations -- he's a child molester; we should hold fire?


There shouldn't be that connection. If it were someone you liked, say, a Joe Pos, or whoever, and you were convinced the allegations were likely true, would you hold fire? I wouldn't.
   116. Bob Tufts Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:48 PM (#4020667)
Time to inaugurate the BC Johnson Spank Award for misbehaving sportswriters.
   117. Guapo Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:50 PM (#4020671)
Crap. You have exactly a one-sided tailored account that is not tested in any way.


Morty is right, they didn't interview ME or any of the millions of other children who were never molested by Bill Conlin. Everyone calm down and pretend this story doesn't exist right now.
   118. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:54 PM (#4020674)
There shouldn't be that connection. If it were someone you liked, say, a Joe Pos, or whoever, and you were convinced the allegations were likely true, would you hold fire? I wouldn't.


I'm not saying there should -- just that we all regularly express very tart, derisive, and strong opinions about people (with whom we agree and disagree) who do nothing more than offer up contrary opinions... No one jumps into a Chass/Plashke/etc post to say "hey, ease up fellas".

Though... to be honest... I have to say - if the unthinkable occurred and let's say Pos was accused of something like this, I have to admit -- I'd be hunting far and low for shreds of credible doubt. I like to think I'd eventually just face up to the mountain and damn him digitally as well.

Anyway - my point wasn't schadenfreude-based - it was more that we call people idiots and worse all the time for, in the grand scheme of things, pretty darn inconsequential reasons. Given that none of us are sitting on a jury (especially since none will be forthcoming), I just don't understand why it matters in this instance that people are frothing.
   119. Kurt Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:54 PM (#4020676)
There shouldn't be that connection. If it were someone you liked, say, a Joe Pos, or whoever, and you were convinced the allegations were likely true, would you hold fire? I wouldn't.

That's not his point. He's talking about the subject matter about which we're allowed to have opinions, not Conlin himself.

Edit: Coke.
   120. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:54 PM (#4020678)
Detective Stacie Lick?
   121. bob gee Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:55 PM (#4020679)
#107 - at least one reporter has already knocked on his door to get comment, which he declined / gave them his lawyer's number. unless it's a gated area, i don't know if he'll be able to stay at that address anymore; it's trivial to find out the exact address, number within, etc.


and the harm wouldn't come from any BTF people, but from someone non-sports affiliated who feels they're doing the world a favor. i think most BTF people were just hoping conlin would stop writing and retire, without this as a cause.
   122. Tripon Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:55 PM (#4020680)


Morty is right, they didn't interview ME or any of the millions of other children who were never molested by Bill Conlin. Everyone calm down and pretend this story doesn't exist right now.


If we want to be accurate, we should say that Bill Conlin has never molested the billions of children living today. But then again, so hasn't Jerry Sandusky or Bernie Fine.
   123. DA Baracus Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:57 PM (#4020682)
There shouldn't be that connection. If it were someone you liked, say, a Joe Pos, or whoever, and you were convinced the allegations were likely true, would you hold fire? I wouldn't.


Agreed, but since this is slobbering curmudgeon Bill Conlin, we don't have to worry about crossing that bridge right now.
   124. Morty Causa Posted: December 20, 2011 at 11:58 PM (#4020684)
One-sided tailored account? More like vivid first person testimony from victims of crimes.


It's still one-sided. You believe everything that moves you, that calls to your psyche, is reality?

You have a choice here, either you are saying that these adults fabricated this so their family could go through hell. Or that the reporter is misrepresenting the facts.


No, that's isn't the only choice. I can wait. There's are reasons to do so. There are reasons, as good citizens and good fellows, we are urged by state and church to do so. Placing imprimatur on a process where nothing but allegation and a one-sided presentation is sufficient, is an totalitarian ideal--and I'm surprised at how people here so easily and quickly jump on that bandwagon.
   125. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:01 AM (#4020685)
So if we believe Conlin is in big trouble, we're fascists?
   126. Danny Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:07 AM (#4020688)
BBWAA:
“Bill Conlin has been a member in good standing of the BBWAA since 1966. The allegations have no bearing on his winning the 2011 J.G. Taylor Spink Award, which was in recognition of his notable career as a baseball writer.”

-Jack O’Connell, BBWAA secretary/treasurer
Dec. 20, 2011
   127. Zonk is a Doorknob Whisperer Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:07 AM (#4020689)

No, that's isn't the only choice. I can wait. There's are reasons to do so. There are reasons, as good citizens and good fellows, we are urged by state and church to do so. Placing imprimatur on a process where nothing but allegation and a one-sided presentation is sufficient, is an totalitarian ideal--and I'm surprised at how people here so easily and quickly jump on that bandwagon.


But that's the thing -- wait to do what? Type out a diatribe calling for Conlin's head?

I mean - I get where you're coming from on a larger, societal level - and like I said in 107, if anyone was even questionably suggesting organizing a posse... I see the harm and I -- and I think almost everyone else -- would stomp on the breaks.

Especially considering here that the statute of limitations (absent more recent accusations) means he's not going to be charged with anything, I guess I don't see the harm in the digital lambasting and tough guying that isn't going to really affect Conlin one way or another.

There really isn't going to be a process here... Some DA will probably eventually give a presser and say some variant of "statute of limitations"... maybe.
   128. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:14 AM (#4020692)
If you understand, then I'm satisfied.

After all, this is supposed to be a happy occasion! Let's not bicker and argue about who deserves lynching and who doesn't.

Sorry to ruin your fun, boys, but some things are more serious--that's why they're dealt with in special ways under consideration and not by shooting from the hip. But, now that I've been a wet blanket, I think I'll leave at that. I've had my say. Please don't mind me: continue satiating your blood lust. I'll just repress my member elsewhere, to be recovered at leisure later.
   129. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:14 AM (#4020693)

“Bill Conlin has been a member in good standing of the BBWAA since 1966. The allegations have no bearing on his winning the 2011 J.G. Taylor Spink Award, which was in recognition of his notable career as a baseball writer.”

-Jack O’Connell, BBWAA secretary/treasurer
Dec. 20, 2011


So... the only way to not be in good standing with the BBWAA is to not pay your dues?
   130. Guapo Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:17 AM (#4020694)
I'll just repress my member elsewhere, to be recovered at leisure later.


You might want to write yourself a note so you don't forget where you put it.
   131. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:18 AM (#4020695)
You will know more. Knowledge is freedom, and the predicate for doing the right thing.

Sure. But the most important piece of knowledge you will ever acquire, is that you will never acquire all knowledge. To refuse action based on the knowledge you do have, in favour of future knowledge you will probably never know, leads straight to the most dangerous human state of mind of all: apathy.
   132. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:22 AM (#4020697)
So if we believe Conlin is in big trouble, we're fascists?


apparently in Morty's world yes...

you know every now and the the press reports story and it turns out to be untrue... this does not look like one of those times.

Back in September 2011 it was reported that an airline navigation radio was discovered in a Millennium Hotel room rented by an Arab American the night before- 9/10/01. It was reported that the radio had been stolen.

Well he was arrested in connection with the 9/11 investigation, his court appointed lawyer told the police to ask the guy anything they wanted to.... He was held for quite awhile without bail.

It turned out that the radio belonged to an airline pilot staying at the hotel- he'd reported it missing- it turned out that a hotel security guard had taken it from the pilot's room after the Twin Towers attack and planted it in the room rented by a guy with a Muslim name, then "discovered" it, detained the guy and called the police...

The initial news reports were all wrong.

But then, this does not look like one of those times
   133. Lassus Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:24 AM (#4020700)
I'm on my phone, so slow to check, but in order to combat Morty's little monologue, I'm kind of fascinated by what set tfbg9 off.
   134. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:27 AM (#4020702)
Back in September 2011 it was reported that an airline navigation radio was discovered in a Millennium Hotel room rented by an Arab American the night before- 9/10/01. It was reported that the radio had been stolen...
Hadn't heard that one. I hope the dude sued the hotel down to its last individually wrapped soap bar.
   135. Srul Itza Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:38 AM (#4020709)
I'm kind of fascinated by what set tfbg9 off.


When you are a troll and an asshole, does it really take anything to set you off?
   136. Endless Trash Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:54 AM (#4020721)
I'm kind of fascinated by what set tfbg9 off.


Tim Wakefield I think.
   137. jwb Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:54 AM (#4020722)
65-you mean the Teachers' Unions, right? Assh*ole.
I thought Perros was referring to the Catholic Church, an organization well known for covering up for child anal rapists.
   138. Ephus Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:00 AM (#4020727)
I agree that we should withhold final judgment, but the FACTS known to date are pretty damning:

1. Multiple accusers;
2. One of whom is a family member of Conlin;
3. Contemporaneous reports to family members corroborating the accounts;
4. Well-reported media story -- had to be some serious vetting by the Inquirer;
5. No possible civil payoff for accusers.

Everyone who has compared this to prior negative comments towards Conlin has zero sense of perspective. This is not bad sportswriting -- this is damaging real-life children.
   139. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:01 AM (#4020728)
Well he was arrested in connection with the 9/11 investigation, his court appointed lawyer told the police to ask the guy anything they wanted to.... He was held for quite awhile without bail.

See, I hate details like this, because it makes all the other public defenders look bad. Most public defenders I've had any kinds of dealings with are extremely committed to their clients; know rules of court and evidence and criminal statutes like their own last names; and will fight cases like crazy because rolling over and playing dead is completely against their nature.

Unless you're a juror, a cop, or a friend, you can safely assume that anyone accused of rape by several individuals did it.

Or a defense lawyer.
Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't. What comes into evidence is different from what we know (or think we know), and if I was his lawyer I'd chalk everything in the news up to "bad facts," and get to work coming up with a defense strategy.
   140. Endless Trash Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:01 AM (#4020729)
I am going to go home now. Tonight I'll come back and see which thread is more entertaining between this one and the Global Warming one.

Will the Snapper/Joey B/RayDiPerna alliance still be providing guffaws, or will have the focus shifted to the stylings of Morty Causa and his Batman-like rapid-response to all things pedophilia related? Soon we shall see.
   141. Mellow Mouse, Benevolent Space Tyrant Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:28 AM (#4020740)
110. tfbg9  Posted: December 20, 2011 at 06:44 PM (#4020658)
65-you mean the Teachers' Unions, right? Assh*ole.


Nope I looked and I still don't get what set him off, unless there is prior history, or extreme sensitivity. Between this post and Morty's stance I am a bit confused by this thread.
   142. Bob Tufts Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:36 AM (#4020745)
Last year, "Conlin received 188 votes from the 434 ballots cast by BBWAA members with 10 or more consecutive years' service" according to the press release. (You don't need 75% - let alone a majority to get this award!)

I would like to hear from these writers that voted for him.
   143. rr Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:40 AM (#4020751)
As linked on page 1, here is an exchange between me and bads85 on Conlin from one year ago:

5. robinred Posted: December 07, 2010 at 02:13 PM (#3705025)

In the pic with the article, Conlin looks like a severely pissed-off Santa Claus.

In the pic with the article, Conlin looks like a severely pissed-off Santa Claus.
OR
6. Quiet Flows the Don Taussig Avenger (Edmundo) Posted: December 07, 2010 at 02:18 PM (#3705033)

#5, that's exactly how he sounds these days.
7. bads85 Posted: December 07, 2010 at 02:20 PM (#3705035)

In the pic with the article, Conlin looks like a severely pissed-off Santa Claus.


I was thinking a convicted, unremorseful child molester, which I guess is kind of the same thing.
   144. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:53 AM (#4020754)
I am going to go home now. Tonight I'll come back and see which thread is more entertaining between this one and the Global Warming one.

Will the Snapper/Joey B/RayDiPerna alliance still be providing guffaws, or will have the focus shifted to the stylings of Morty Causa and his Batman-like rapid-response to all things pedophilia related? Soon we shall see.


I started this thread from 143 and was working back. Shock, you've convinced me to stop right here. As Fearless Leader, this #### is beneath me. I need to write a national anthem, anyway.
   145. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:59 AM (#4020762)
I would like to hear from these writers that voted for him.


What do you want to hear? Do you think any of them knew he liked to fondle children?
   146. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2011 at 02:04 AM (#4020764)

I started this thread from 143 and was working back. Shock, you've convinced me to stop right here. As Fearless Leader, this #### is beneath me. I need to write a national anthem, anyway.


The suffering of children is beneath Shooty. Noted! :)
   147. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 21, 2011 at 02:11 AM (#4020768)
The suffering of children is beneath Shooty. Noted! :)

I plan on selling children to the Saudis in exchange for nuclear technology I can use to extort Don Mattingly Donruss rookie cards from America. Step 2: ??? Step 3: Profit.

I have got this Fearless Leader thing down cold.

In all seriousness, after Sandusky, Fine and now Conlin, I'm kind of numb. I don't know how you guys with kids trust anyone, sometimes.
   148. Textbook Editor Posted: December 21, 2011 at 02:37 AM (#4020784)
In all seriousness, after Sandusky, Fine and now Conlin, I'm kind of numb. I don't know how you guys with kids trust anyone, sometimes.


Shooty--in all seriousness, we (or at least I) don't. It's irrational to fear everyone--I know it is--but it's my default setting.
   149. a bebop a rebop Posted: December 21, 2011 at 02:52 AM (#4020794)
Shooty--in all seriousness, we (or at least I) don't. It's irrational to fear everyone--I know it is--but it's my default setting.

And this -- no offense to you in particular; I get where you're coming from to the extent that anyone without kids can -- is why we get things like day care rape panics.
   150. Guapo Posted: December 21, 2011 at 02:53 AM (#4020795)
I don't know how you guys with kids trust anyone, sometimes.


What these high profile cases in recent weeks have driven home for me- for God's sake, if you think/know somebody is molesting kids, REPORT THEM. No, we don't want witchhunts, but we also don't need recidivist molesters ruining people's lives because "somebody else can take care of it," "I'm friends with his wife and I don't want her to suffer," "I was afraid that if my husband found out he'd kill him," etc.
   151. Adam B. Posted: December 21, 2011 at 02:55 AM (#4020798)
For anyone who questions the reporter's talents, Nancy Phillips is the Inquirer report who got Len Jenoff to confess to serving as a rabbi's hitman in the murder-for-hire of the rabbi's wife. She's solid.
   152. Textbook Editor Posted: December 21, 2011 at 03:05 AM (#4020802)
And this -- no offense to you in particular; I get where you're coming from to the extent that anyone without kids can -- is why we get things like day care rape panics.


None taken; your point fully taken.

For me, at least, the "trust no one" really just manifests itself as: don't leave him alone with anyone you're not dead-sure is worthy of your trust. At his age (6) this just seems commonsensical to me, but again, I don't pretend to be rational about this.

Also, what Guapo said in #150.
   153. AndrewJ Posted: December 21, 2011 at 03:09 AM (#4020805)
I don't know how you guys with kids trust anyone, sometimes.


I grew up Roman Catholic, and my mom was friends with most of the priests in our parish. There was one, though, who simply creeped her out -- she once saw him on line in a supermarket trying to get a toddler's attention, and it made her very uncomfortable. My sister and I kept our distance. After his death, the diocese acknowledged that many ex-altar boys/former parishoners had accused him of molestation. One survivor wrote this book.
   154. Juan V Posted: December 21, 2011 at 03:38 AM (#4020811)
I'm already looking forward to the next NBA thread intro.
   155. Rafael Bellylard: The Grinch of Orlando. Posted: December 21, 2011 at 03:42 AM (#4020812)
86. Rafael Bellylard: Built like a Molina Posted: December 20, 2011 at 05:58 PM (#4020608)
Think I might schedule this Sunday's Sports Reporters on the DVR.


111. LargeBill: I doubt they will find time to cover this story.


I hope that's not true. That show has been all over the Sandusky case and has been banging away on Penn State over it for a month. I want to hear what Lupica, Ryan, et al have to say about a guy they've been working next to on the air for the past 20 years or so, particularly since the evidence against Conlin is roughly the same kind as against Sandusky (victims, confessions to others, etc...).
   156. Dale Sams Posted: December 21, 2011 at 03:47 AM (#4020813)
I pointed out at work today that, IF we assume pedophiles are born that way,...they can't even relieve themselves legally with drawings.

It wasn't a popular subject needless to say...I do wonder if even Alan Most Liberal Man in the World Moore has touched on that.
   157. Moeball Posted: December 21, 2011 at 03:49 AM (#4020814)
I hope someone here can remember better than I - wasn't Conlin the one that turned Steve Carlton off of the press permanently? I thought Carlton supposedly told him something in confidence only to see it splashed across the newspaper headlines? After that Carlton quit doing interviews...
   158. rr Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:05 AM (#4020827)
I'm already looking forward to the next NBA thread intro


It is 11 days away. Wonder what kind of threads will pop up in the interim.
   159. valuearbitrageur Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:09 AM (#4020829)
As linked on page 1, here is an exchange between me and bads85 on Conlin from one year ago:

I was thinking a convicted, unremorseful child molester, which I guess is kind of the same thing.


bads85 needs to answer for what they knew and when they knew it;)
   160. PerroX Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:15 AM (#4020833)
All the evidence I've seen are pedophiles are made, not born. People tend to subconsciously act out traumas from childhood they can't access consciously. Mostly, it'd be stuff before language was fully formed. Most people's memories only go back so far because they are linked to words.

My sister - and perhaps my youngest daughter, ironically with thr same birthday - remember the past in images. Sister can remember stuff that I can't despite the fact I am over two years older.

I'm all for exploring this issue rationally and dispassionately, even as concrete cases like this one and from my personal acquaitnaces sicken me. The problem is people would rather not look at the larger societal issues that ensure abuse continues, particularly the second-class citizenship of children. I am not hopeful in a society where even the rights of first class citizenship have little meaning anymore.
   161. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:47 AM (#4020843)
Is it possible that global warming is caused by baseball writers molesting children? Discuss.
   162. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:50 AM (#4020846)
Is it possible that global warming is caused by baseball writers molesting children? Discuss.

no..but the designated hitter is
   163. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:04 AM (#4020850)
Is it possible that global warming is caused by baseball writers molesting children? Discuss.

no..but the designated hitter is


Oh, that's already been established. DH'ing also has led to increases in cretinism, toenail fungus and the rise of the Kardashians. It is well known that letting pitchers bat is what led to the death of Kin Jong Il (although I'm sure Shooty will not be as fine a leader no matter how well he prepares).
   164. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:28 AM (#4020857)
The fact that he resigned immediately lends credence to the notion that he's guilty.
   165. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:38 AM (#4020860)
Those confused about Morty's spirited defense of Conlin should recall that he also defended Roman Polanski.

Morty: The problem is that to believe Conlin is completely innocent, one would have to believe that all of these adults, from those who were molested to the parents to the friends -- all just made it up. But why would they do that? For a good laugh?

Now, I'm sure some of the details are a bit off -- it's been 40 years -- but that can't make the central allegations go away.
   166. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 21, 2011 at 06:06 AM (#4020866)
78. Morty Causa Posted: December 20, 2011 at 05:38 PM (#4020588)
I read the ####### story. Why don't you wait for the ####### evidence and trial before you slap your mule on the ass and take off hellbent for leather.


Unless more recent charges emerge, there won't be any ######## evidence or trial. We will all reach some conclusion about whether we think he did what he's accused of or not. Some will find the story compelling. Some will think the story might be exaggerated. Some will be certain he has many other victims from over the years. However, regardless of our belief in his guilt or innocence, NONE of us will ever know what happened. He will wait for punishment or redemption in the next world because he isn't likely to get either in this one.


Allow me to enlighten you as to the inner workings of Morty's brain:

* Bill Clinton is not a perjurer because he was never convicted of the same.

* Roman Polanski is not a child molestor or a rapist because he was never convicted of the same.

* And, in the same way, Bill Conlin is not a child molestor because he has not been convicted of the same.

The game Morty is playing above -- "why don't you wait for the trial" -- is disingenuous because Morty knows there will never be a trial. (At least not on these facts and circumstances.)

HTH.
   167. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: December 21, 2011 at 08:34 AM (#4020876)
Despite the rush to tear down Conlin, we must acknowledge that none of the children have since developed vaginal or rectal cancer. Early detection is key.
   168. Tuque Posted: December 21, 2011 at 10:19 AM (#4020883)
we must acknowledge that none of the children have since developed vaginal or rectal cancer. Early detection is key.

Wow. Not expecting that one.
   169. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 21, 2011 at 12:05 PM (#4020890)
* Roman Polanski is not a child molestor or a rapist because he was never convicted of the same.

Actually...he was.
   170. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:00 PM (#4020897)
The Polanski thread is one thing, but don't forget the Mel Hall thread, where he went all-in with "why is the range of outrage proportional to the age of the man?"

It's not just about his peculiar reading of the legal system.
   171. ray james Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:01 PM (#4020898)
166. RayDiPerna Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:06 AM (#4020866)Allow me to enlighten you as to the inner workings of Morty's brain:

* Bill Clinton is not a perjurer because he was never convicted of the same.

* Roman Polanski is not a child molestor or a rapist because he was never convicted of the same.


And Barry Bonds is not a steroid abuser and a cheater because he was never convicted of the same?

Ray, don't ever change.
   172. bunyon Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:06 PM (#4020900)
I've not looked super closely, but has Conlin made a statement, beyond that his lawyer made? I realize with legal stuff hanging over your head, it's wise not to say too much, but surely there is a way for an innocent man to say something along the lines of "I didn't do it," without damaging himself at trial, if trial happens. Resigning without a statement in the face of credible accusations is pretty damning.

I get what Morty is trying to say, I think. But, in one-sided stories, the one side talking wins. If Mr. Conlin wishes to have his side heard, he needs to tell it. That side can be as simple as what I said above, "I didn't do it. I'm not guilty." To me, that would buy him some benefit of the doubt, for awhile. But if in response to the question, he simply quit his job and ran away, well, that is a side, too.
   173. Hack Wilson Posted: December 21, 2011 at 01:48 PM (#4020912)
As someone alluded to above Dick Young was worse than Conlin. If you don't believe me google Dick Young--but not at work. I take it back please don't google Dick Young.
   174. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 21, 2011 at 02:14 PM (#4020926)
And Barry Bonds is not a steroid abuser and a cheater because he was never convicted of the same?

Ray, don't ever change.


I have no idea what you're trying to say.
   175. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 21, 2011 at 02:25 PM (#4020932)
I highly doubt The Sports Reporters will cover this story. They can spend entire shows discussing or even attacking other people, but when it's one of their own, they will probably just "let the process run its course."

Incidentally, this is one reason why the steroids moralizing from people is so distasteful. They spew venom at players for sticking a needle in themselves... meanwhile they have molested children.
   176. BrianBrianson Posted: December 21, 2011 at 02:28 PM (#4020933)
Or a defense lawyer.
Maybe he did it, maybe he didn't. What comes into evidence is different from what we know (or think we know), and if I was his lawyer I'd chalk everything in the news up to "bad facts," and get to work coming up with a defense strategy.


Yes, okay. I'd go farther, and say "Unless you're involved with the trial, or the person, you can safely assume someone accused of four separate counts of rape is guilty with the same kind of confidence you have that your office building will be there when you show up to work - while it's true that you could be wrong, it's simply too unlikely to be worth worrying about."
   177. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:13 PM (#4021042)
Yes, okay. I'd go farther, and say "Unless you're involved with the trial, or the person, you can safely assume someone accused of four separate counts of rape is guilty with the same kind of confidence you have that your office building will be there when you show up to work - while it's true that you could be wrong, it's simply too unlikely to be worth worrying about."


Yes. For Conlin to be innocent of these allegations, they would have to have been orchestrated by a real life James Bond villain. Conspiring to frame Bill Conlin because he... says dumb things on The Sports Reporters?
   178. Craig in MN Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:16 PM (#4021045)
#107 - at least one reporter has already knocked on his door to get comment, which he declined / gave them his lawyer's number. unless it's a gated area, i don't know if he'll be able to stay at that address anymore; it's trivial to find out the exact address, number within, etc.


It's a town house, and a relatively nice one. It isn't a gated community, but I don't think he'll have to move. He'll get some hate mail and a few reporters and passersby coming to his door, but with him leaving the limelight and leaving Philly, and with no trial, this will fade quickly.

But you are right, it is trivial to find someone's address & phone number.
   179. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:18 PM (#4021050)
Yes. For Conlin to be innocent of these allegations, they would have to have been orchestrated by a real life James Bond villain. Conspiring to frame Bill Conlin because he... says dumb things on The Sports Reporters?

First you'd have to find someone who watches The Sports Reporters. Actually, we should just lock up everyone who watches that show as it's impossible anyone who watches it isn't dangerously insane.
   180. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:34 PM (#4021062)
Those confused about Morty's spirited defense of Conlin should recall that he also defended Roman Polanski.


Wrong. I didn't defend Polanski, or Conlin, for that matter. I defended the concept of an institutional process and definition, as with Clinton.

Morty: The problem is that to believe Conlin is completely innocent, one would have to believe that all of these adults, from those who were molested to the parents to the friends -- all just made it up. But why would they do that? For a good laugh?


No, the problem is you're a retard with an Uzi. History is replete with instances where the initially offered and accepted version is wrong, totally or in part. To say it shouldn't even be tested should be grounds for your disbarment, and should certify you for institutionalization. For your own good, and the good of mankind.

Bill Clinton is not a perjurer because he was never convicted of the same.


That Clinton was never convicted, by court or Congress, is something you and others would never have divulged. Your defense rests solely on intentionally conflating the legal with the every day. That’s despicable. Especially for a lawyer—but for anyone once the distinction is raised. Don’t you think it matters? Don’t you think that keeping the two meanings of perjury, one in the legal sense and one in a loose lay sense, distinct and separate is something worth preserving?

What's the point of having a process if you are allowed to bail of it at will or whim? Why are you so intent on beginning with stigmatizing? Shouldn't that be reserved for after the process?
   181. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:36 PM (#4021063)
The game Morty is playing above -- "why don't you wait for the trial" -- is disingenuous because Morty knows there will never be a trial. (At least not on these facts and circumstances.)


Claims and accusations are tested in other ways beside trials—and not solely by newspaper accounts. What's upsetting about this insane clown posse pursuit of Conlin (and Polanski and Clinton) has little to do with the whether the underlying offense is true or not--it's that you don't want to play by the rules, and you ever take pride in that—many here going so far as to preen about that. People are actually smug about jettisoning all procedures and institutional safeguards. It somehow is supposed to mean they have these superior sensibilities and morals. That’s disgusting. Time and time again, history has shown how that this results in despicable injustice--even if the underlying accusation had merit.
   182. bunyon Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:37 PM (#4021067)
Morty, who is saying Conlin should be imprisoned or harmed based on what is known so far? All I've seen is people say, "That story sounds credible. What do you have to say about it, Mr. Conlin?"

I mean, sure, he's not been convicted, or indicted, on any charges but I submit if you lead your life trusting all who haven't been convicted, you'll end up in bad shape. He deserves a fair trial if he's indicted. However, based on what I've seen so far, without a really good story - not technicalities - I certainly wouldn't let a child within 50 feet of him. Would you?
   183. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:37 PM (#4021068)
The Polanski thread is one thing, but don't forget the Mel Hall thread, where he went all-in with "why is the range of outrage proportional to the age of the man?"


The Very Proper Gander
   184. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:42 PM (#4021075)
Morty, who is saying Conlin should be imprisoned or harmed based on what is known so far? All I've seen is people say, "That story sounds credible. What do you have to say about it, Mr. Conlin?"


No matter what I write, and how finely I argue it, you just ignore it and go back to lynch-cry position one: there are some here who always want to ignore it and revert to there initial position. This is not about Conlin; this is about you (generic you here), and your self-satisfaction in insisting on your right to go off the deep end at will. That you should be respected for feeling that way and acting on it with such fine alacrity..
   185. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:46 PM (#4021079)
But, in one-sided stories, the one side talking wins.


And there goes 3000 years of Western Civilization. Just strip yourself naked, paint yourself purple and gold, stick some feathers up your ass, and do a rain dance in propitiation to the thunder god.
   186. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:47 PM (#4021080)
I have held the firm belief that Conlin is a waste of skin for decades. I see no reason to change that assessment.
   187. Ray (CTL) Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:48 PM (#4021083)
Wrong. I didn't defend Polanski, or Conlin, for that matter. I defended the concept of an institutional process and definition, as with Clinton.


Yes. You placed "process" above all else, which is the same as defending those people. (Not that what Clinton did is remotely close to what Polanski did.)

No, the problem is you're a retard with an Uzi. History is replete with instances where the initially offered and accepted version is wrong, totally or in part.


I invite you to speculate on what possible way Conlin could be innocent here (and not in the sense that some of the details maybe wrong, which I fully grant, but that the thrust of the charges is wrong). Several people are accusing him, from the victims themselves to their parents, etc. Their specific facts seem to align. Are they all making it up? Conspiring against him? Do they have bad memories? Do they have the wrong person? What possible reason? What is their motive? I give you complete license to speculate.

I never said he should be thrown in jail over this without giving him due process (and the statute has run anyway) - I've just concluded that he's guilty of the central claims. If I were on a jury I'd reserve judgment, but I see no reason to reserve judgment here.
   188. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:55 PM (#4021089)
Not only that, but from an institutional standpoint, just think what power that mindset cedes to accusers. Then think if that is so, what that can do to encourage people to make accusations.

Carr's classic in historical detection shows how mere accusations, and people who see their chance in making them and supporting them, led to widespread attacks on a minority class and almost civil war. Highly recommended as history and a great read in the detection field.
   189. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:57 PM (#4021094)

Claims and accusations are tested in other ways beside trials—and not solely by newspaper accounts. What's upsetting about this insane clown posse pursuit of Conlin (and Polanski and Clinton) has little to do with the whether the underlying offense is true or not--it's that you don't want to play by the rules, and you ever take pride in that—many here going so far as to preen about that. People are actually smug about jettisoning all procedures and institutional safeguards. It somehow is supposed to mean they have these superior sensibilities and morals. That’s disgusting. Time and time again, history has shown how that this results in despicable injustice--even if the underlying accusation had merit.


What rules are you talking about? I'm interested in exactly what you're saying here. There won't be a criminal trial, at least on these charges due to the statue of limitations. What procedures and safeguards are you arguing for?

Also, can we at least try to talk about this case on its own merits and not make a vague claim about 'History'? I would very much like to see your viewpoint on why Conlin himself may not be guilty of the claims against him, but its hard to do it when you keep on calling on the specter of the past. Lets talk about the present.
   190. rr Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:59 PM (#4021099)
retard with an Uzi


This would make a good handle, or a good name for a band.
   191. Lassus Posted: December 21, 2011 at 04:59 PM (#4021100)
Thanks, Matt. I was afraid I was remembering that thread wrong, so hadn't mentioned it.
   192. rr Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:03 PM (#4021107)
Tripon's not here to talk about the past.
   193. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:04 PM (#4021108)
You, and Matt, are still remembering the thread wrong.
   194. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:09 PM (#4021113)
Their specific facts seem to align. Are they all making it up? Conspiring against him? Do they have bad memories? Do they have the wrong person? What possible reason? What is their motive? I give you complete license to speculate.


Well, there was that one Law and Order episode where a girl was molested, and while questioned by detectives blurted out that it was her Uncle Mark, a well regarded HS teacher and football coach. Shortly after, dozens of girls came forward and claimed that "Uncle Mark" had molested them as well. Turned out that the first girl was really molested by a HS kid who threatened to kill her and her family if she told, and all the other kids were merely influenced and coached by their parents to say he molested them as well, in order to make sure he got a harsher sentence.

but I don't think that this is the case.
   195. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:10 PM (#4021114)
Yes. You placed "process" above all else, which is the same as defending those people.


I never said he should be thrown in jail over this without giving him due process


<smile?|>

(and the statute has run anyway) - I've just concluded that he's guilty of the central claims. If I were on a jury I'd reserve judgment, but I see no reason to reserve judgment here.


And I say that the fact that you've reached that conclusion at this point is putrid.

Ray, be serious: do you really think anyone believes you would reserve judgment. Have you ever reserved judgment?
   196. Tripon Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:19 PM (#4021126)

And I say that the fact that you've reached that conclusion at this point is putrid.

Ray, be serious: do you really think anyone believes you would reserve judgment. Have you ever reserved judgment?


But why would you need to reserve judgement in this case? Why is it putrid? I'm honestly curious.
   197. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:21 PM (#4021132)
Actually, we should just lock up everyone who watches that show as it's impossible anyone who watches it isn't dangerously insane.


And how would you know this, other than by watching the show? Get the straitjacket boys.
   198. Morty Causa Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:30 PM (#4021145)
What rules are you talking about? I'm interested in exactly what you're saying here. There won't be a criminal trial, at least on these charges due to the statue of limitations. What procedures and safeguards are you arguing for?


Nothing can approach a knowing of the truth without some sort of adversarial process--it doesn't have to be legal, but there has to be a crucible of contention. Deciding at the mere threshold of allegation that that's sufficient, that that's all that is needed, in any venue, is uncalled for and atrocious.

This adversarial process can be just a form of Devil's Advocate (as that great institution the Church used); it can be peer-review in science; it can be dueling scholars in the interpretation of a Shakespeare sonnet. It exists everywhere at all levels. But we need to give it its due. There's a real reason why it exists (and also why we tend to want to pooh-pooh it when we too closely identify with an issue or player).

Also, can we at least try to talk about this case on its own merits and not make a vague claim about 'History'? I would very much like to see your viewpoint on why Conlin himself may not be guilty of the claims against him, but its hard to do it when you keep on calling on the specter of the past. Lets talk about the present.


No, sorry. My point does't have to do with the merits. I'm really not defending Conlin (or Polanski or Hall or Clinton--well, yeah, I am defending Clinton). My point here is limited, and it says a lot about people who want to extend it so feel justification to lynch me.

There's an overarching issue that is not being given its due--and I bet that if this were some other scenario, but instead one that called to your hearts, you'd be making the same damn argument I'm making. That's why process (all process, not just legal process) should be substrate neutral. And you need to see that--in fact, I think you do, so the question becomes why do you want to trash it. Why do you want to give it the bum's rush? What is motivating all this intentional disregard for something in other circumstances you would insist be followed?
   199. Kurt Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:36 PM (#4021150)
Ray, be serious: do you really think anyone believes you would reserve judgment.

I refuse to take a position on whether Ray would ever reserve judgment until he's been formally charged, tried and convicted of never reserving judgment.
   200. Biscuit_pants Posted: December 21, 2011 at 05:36 PM (#4021151)
One-sided tailored account? More like vivid first person testimony from victims of crimes.
If you have ever known someone falsely accused of child molestation you might not be quick to judge. Teachers get falsely accused a lot and it ruins their career. There was a case in Indiana in which the girls admitted to the false accusations rather quickly but the teacher had to move to a new school because of pressure by parents, after the admission by the girls. While I did not know that teacher I did know their sister and hearing it from her really made me take a step back and think before I get worked up. I still get worked up because of the thought of it, but I try and say to myself that they might not have done it.
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