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Monday, February 20, 2012

Deadspin: The Making Of “Homer At The Bat”

How big was this episode:

On Feb. 20, 1992, more American homes tuned into The Simpsons than they did The Cosby Show or the Winter Olympics from Albertville, France. A foul-mouthed cartoon on a fourth-place network bested the Huxtables and the world’s best amateur athletes. Fox over NBC and CBS—its first-ever victory in prime time. New over old.

And how were the players who were on the show:

Showrunner Al Jean has said the players who committed were more than happy to do the show. Well, almost of all of them. “They were all really nice,” Jean said on the DVD commentary, “except for one whose name rhymes with Manseco.”

Mark S. is bored Posted: February 20, 2012 at 08:30 PM | 1075 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: television

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   301. zenbitz Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:17 PM (#4066514)
I just saw the Star Trek reboot again, and it actually ages pretty well. I am looking forward to the pre-sequel.
   302. SouthSideRyan Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:19 PM (#4066516)
I think the key to Locke's character is that life on the island seems much more real to him than life outside ever did. He has a strong feeling of destiny, but life outside the island is a constant stream of humiliation. Then he wakes up on the island and everything makes sense.


And then they killed him and ruined everything.
   303. Greg K Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:29 PM (#4066527)
And then they killed him and ruined everything.

I'm not sure Locke was ever going to be able to be the hero of that story. The way it turned out kind of seems like a lame compromise ot keep Terry O'Quinn involved in the show, but I think Locke was always going to be a tragic figure, and I think his insecurities and self-doubt quite organically led to his downfall.
   304. Lassus Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:34 PM (#4066529)
With Lost, the Sopranos, Battlestar... has there in the past ten years been a popular show that had a finale people LIKED?
   305. Greg K Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:39 PM (#4066534)
With Lost, the Sopranos, Battlestar... has there in the past ten years been a popular show that had a finale people LIKED?

I didn't dislike the ending of Lost. The actual final episode I thought was fine, the last season overall was disappointing. But not unexpectedly so. The resolution is never as exciting as the process of figuring out what's going on, and by the start of the final season it was pretty clear what the general direction of the show was going to be. It was sort of like just marking the days until it was over.

I am assuming though that your point was more about the general consensus of the ending, which does seem fairly negative.

I always thought TNG had a fairly solid final episode. That was...geez...almost 20 years ago now?
   306. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:44 PM (#4066538)
With Lost, the Sopranos, Battlestar... has there in the past ten years been a popular show that had a finale people LIKED?


Futurama?
   307. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:46 PM (#4066539)
The Shield? Rescue Me? Deadwood?
   308. Greg K Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4066542)
Also, I guess it wasn't an extremely popular show but the Christmas special of Extras (which is essentially a finale) was a great and moving TV experience for me. I freely admit that there were some tears. Though with me that's not saying much.
   309. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:53 PM (#4066544)
I was happen when "John From Cincinati" was finished.
   310. SouthSideRyan Posted: February 22, 2012 at 06:56 PM (#4066545)
I'm not sure Locke was ever going to be able to be the hero of that story. The way it turned out kind of seems like a lame compromise ot keep Terry O'Quinn involved in the show, but I think Locke was always going to be a tragic figure, and I think his insecurities and self-doubt quite organically led to his downfall.


He didn't need to be the hero, but it would've been nice if they let him be Locke.
   311. Fred Lynn Nolan Ryan Sweeney Agonistes Posted: February 22, 2012 at 07:08 PM (#4066554)
I was happen when "John From Cincinati" was finished.


"I was only a nipper when the Beatles was on the go, but I was ####### glad when they broke up!" - Steve Jones
   312. Dale Sams Posted: February 22, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4066557)
I *loved* the final ep of BSG. LOVED it. More than anything so I could see all the agnostic dipshits blow a gasket.

"But..but..I thought it was a chip in his head!!"

Me: "They told you it was God. From ep 1. Deal with it."

...but then I adored the Quantum Leap finale too.

Extras and The Office were unwatchable for me. Made me way too uncomfortable.
   313. Zach Posted: February 22, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4066558)
I didn't think Lost's ending was that horrible. The last season lost a lot of momentum cleaning up loose ends, but every character arc comes to a satisfactory conclusion in the main timeline.

I thought the actual last scene was a little lame, though. Usually the alternative timeline exists as a way of putting the events of the main timeline into perspective, but the last scene played more like a cast party or an opportunity for a last bow.

I guess my take on the ending was that it wasn't great, but it was good enough not to spoil the parts of the series that truly were great. That may not sound like much, but it's more than the Star Wars prequels can say.
   314. Gamingboy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 07:30 PM (#4066564)

Bring it.


Okay. As I mentioned, only Revenge of the Sith was really "worth it" as a prequel, and few prequels to anything are ever really "worth it", especially in movies.
However, I've noticed that most prequels that ARE good (ROTS notwithstanding) are usually not prequels in the usual sense. And they usually are GOOD ENTERTAINMENT FIRST and PREQUELS SECOND.

Take AbramsTrek for example. One of the best Star Trek movies in years, and while it was a prequel, it was just as much a reboot (the events of the movie set up a alternate timeline) and a sequel (from Nimoy-Spock's perspective). But the thing was, it was made with it being entertaining as the big goal. Yeah, it had the Kobayashi Maru test, Captain Pike and the like, but that was not the focus of it, the focus was on the story.

Or look at the Genndy Tartakovsky "Clone Wars" miniseries (as opposed to the 3D-animated series, which I haven't watched much): It was lots of stories that, while taking place in the Star Wars universe, only a few of them had anything to do with the Skywalker story, what was there was good foreshadowing. The fact that the long-talked-about Star Wars live-action series apparently will be about the underworld of the Star Wars universe, with few references to Vader, Skywalker, etc, makes it promising.

Then there was the recent Captain America movie. Good film, throwback to derring-do action films. But it also serves as a prequel to basically every other Marvel/Avengers movie. But all those prequely touches were done as extras to the actual story.

So, yeah, if you do a prequel, focus on making it good first and put the prequel stuff in after that.
   315. Greg K Posted: February 22, 2012 at 07:32 PM (#4066566)
I thought the actual last scene was a little lame, though. Usually the alternative timeline exists as a way of putting the events of the main timeline into perspective, but the last scene played more like a cast party or an opportunity for a last bow.

I always thought that the writers were a bit hamstrung by the format they had established. I think the alternate universe thing was an ok concept to build into the ending, but the need for prominent flash backs throughout the season kind of made us invest more in it than it was worth.

I suppose you have to lay some kind of groundwork to get to that ending without it coming out of nowhere, but there sure was a lot of time spent with Jack and his kid that in retrospect didn't appear totally useful. I guess Desmond's ambiguous existence across all universes played into the story and built a little suspense. But for the most part the alternate flashbacks just seem like an exercise in reminding us "hey, there this other weird universe that's eventually going to pay off!"

EDIT: I'm signing on to your assessment of the ending in the final paragraph Zach
   316. AJMcCringleberry Posted: February 22, 2012 at 07:34 PM (#4066567)
Luck of the Fryish really pulls the ol' heartstrings though.

Probably in my top 5 episodes.
   317. Karl from NY Posted: February 22, 2012 at 07:58 PM (#4066578)
With Lost, the Sopranos, Battlestar... has there in the past ten years been a popular show that had a finale people LIKED?

King of the Hill? Or was that not popular?
   318. Something Other Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4066590)
The first half of the second season of The Walking Dead was simply horrendous. If I hadn't read the comic book I probably would have dropped it but the second half is getting better and better with each episode.
I say pshaw. Twice.

SPOILERS: From the brilliantly terrifying highway scene, to the loss of Sophia, to Shane's descent into madness, Andrea's rediscovery of the will to live and herself as a gun-totin' badass (that scene in the housing development did nothing for you? Seriously?), and the humor of her "romance" with Shane, to Daryl becoming more and more human, and thereby a part of the group, Glen and Maggie's romance, the secret of the barn, and Barnaggedon--just to name some highlights and themes--were horrendous?

Pshaw.
   319. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:30 PM (#4066593)
With Lost, the Sopranos, Battlestar... has there in the past ten years been a popular show that had a finale people LIKED?


I don't know how popular it was, and the show had lost a lot of steam in its later seasons, but the finale of Six Feet Under was damn good.

   320. AJMcCringleberry Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:34 PM (#4066595)
-just to name some highlights and themes--were horrendous?

If you think the Sophia storyline was a highlight then I don't know what to say.
   321. Something Other Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4066596)
When will franchises learn...We don't want to see our heroes* or villianous badasses emascualted or beat-up.

Indiana Jones spends the first movie of the series getting the crap kicked out of him by everything, including the furniture. And then griping about how everything hurts.
Not to mention, after one point (SPOILER ALERT) he has apparently died of drowning, so everything we see after that is I guess his last thoughts or whatever.
The billion dollar Die Hard franchise strenuously disagrees with you. Part of the appeal is apparently that McClane gets the crap knocked out of him time and time again but perseveres and keeps coming back.
   322. Something Other Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:36 PM (#4066597)
@320: I didn't say the storyline, I said "the loss of Sophia".

Anyway, while I doubt it would have been my central story line, as a narrative thread Sophia going missing accomplished a lot of good things. It rooted the group in one place, an interesting place, while creating tension between those wanting to stay and those wanting to leave. It put them in close proximity to another group of survivors (underexplored, granted, but we're talking all of four hours of screen time in the first half of season two once they reached the farm) for multiple episodes. It brought out the character of Daryl. It heightened the tension between Rick and Shane, which has been the most interesting of the serie's many themes. And, of course, it gave us that incredible ending with episode 7.
   323. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:42 PM (#4066599)
Abrams' Trek did a nice job recasting the original characters, and looked great, but had a script that was as horrible as horrible gets. What the #### were they thinking?

It's hard to believe that Trek movies never got better than The Wrath of Khan and The Voyage Home...with all the technology we have now.
   324. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:45 PM (#4066602)
just to name some highlights and themes--were horrendous?


Second season? Then yes.
   325. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:48 PM (#4066604)
Every show, even the very bad ones would look good if we simply write up a 5 line summation of it. Unfortunately the second season wasn't 5 lines long it was several hours long.
   326. Something Other Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:50 PM (#4066605)
Abrams' Trek did a nice job recasting the original characters, and looked great, but had a script that was as horrible as horrible gets. What the #### were they thinking?
Hard to figure. Well, it was written with 8th graders in mind. Having Spock reiterate word for word that he was emotionally compromised (a silly regulation if I've ever heard one) and had to leave the bridge was eye-rollingly bad. And the little kid with a wig playing young Kirk? WTF? Even so, Zachary Quinto did pretty well with impossibly large shoes to fill. Btw, am I the only one who thought the Enterprise's bridge looked awfully small for a starship's bridge?

   327. Lassus Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:52 PM (#4066607)
I guess I rarely hear how a cult/popular show really nailed the finale, which was more my original point. I understand that some of you liked the end of Lost (never watched it) and some of you liked the end of BSG (I was fine with it, but found the wrap-up too quick), and I was ok with the Sopranos. But really, for all those shows, the prevailing and often critical opinion was very negative. I thought Deadwood simply..... ended rather than having a finale.
   328. AJMcCringleberry Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:55 PM (#4066610)
The farm is not interesting, despite zombies being all over, none of them come to the farm for reasons unknown. They were put in close proximity with another group...which they have decided to only turn two of the them into characters (I'm supposed to care about this character who stuck in the bed now? Please.). It brought out the stupid in Rick, Lori, and Dale. Spending a week putting yourself in danger for a dead girl is just dumb. Shane appears to be the only one who realizes they are living in a zombie apocalypse.
   329. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:56 PM (#4066611)
In keeping with the written for and by 8th graders theme how about the fact that Kirk somehow becomes the captain of the flagship of the starfleet basically 48 hours after leaving the academy?
   330. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4066613)
It brought out the stupid in Rick, Lori, and Dale. Spending a week putting yourself in danger for a dead girl is just dumb. Shane appears to be the only one who realizes they are living in a zombie apocalypse.

I would put the blame on the comic book for a lot of this but then again the writers of the show haven't had a problem changing the storyline in the past. The comic has had and still has some pretty bad writing and character development.
   331. Something Other Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:03 PM (#4066614)
@329: It was so implausible I stopped paying attention to that part. Was it something along the lines of, "we thought we were just going on a local training cruise, and suddenly much of star fleet was destroyed"? I guess that's not too awful, given the alternative is showing Kirk spending several years doing boring ensign stuff.

@328: well, like I said, when you already have a group of ten then add characters, and have had all of six hours in order to handle multiple plotlines, I can forgive that we only got to know three of the farm dwellers. The business with Beth (zombie scratched girl) will probably be notable for Hershel and Maggie's reaction to what becomes of her, rather than her fate as a distinct character (which she's never been--most viewers probably couldn't even name her before episode 8).

Shane appears to be the only one who realizes they are living in a zombie apocalypse.
Look, Andrea /kidding!

Wait--you're telling me Lori, who was on the edge of aborting her baby, doesn't realize that? I like that Shane and Rick have two very different attitudes towards this new world, and that Shane is an extremely complex character--he could so easily have been a caricature. The writers often make mistakes (if I hear "keep you safe" one more time I'm going to throw something through my tv screen), but keeping Shane in the picture versus the comic's killing him off was a brilliant stroke.
   332. AJMcCringleberry Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4066615)
I would put the blame on the comic book for a lot of this but then again the writers of the show haven't had a problem changing the storyline in the past. The comic has had and still has some pretty bad writing and character development.

Oh, I never read the comic. But still, using shitty source material is just going to make your product shitty.
   333. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:05 PM (#4066616)
King of the Hill? Or was that not popular?


I loved King of the Hill but my recollection was that it didn't really have a "finale" pe se, just a "last episode". A finale implies some sort of resolution or implied finality, like the last episodes of M*A*S*H, Cheers, or Seinfeld, doesn't it? IIRC the last episode of King of the Hill was sort of a throwaway episode where Bobby finds an old Ray J Johnson album.
   334. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:15 PM (#4066623)
but keeping Shane in the picture versus the comic's killing him off was a brilliant stroke.

I wouldn't call it brilliant but simply what happens for TV. It's a lot easier to add and cast off characters in a comic book than adding or removing actors for a TV show.
   335. AJMcCringleberry Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:17 PM (#4066625)
Wait--you're telling me Lori, who was on the edge of aborting her baby, doesn't realize that?

Sure, and other times she sending Glen on pharmacy runs every 20 minutes or running away to pee on a stick in the middle of the night or worried her son might grow up cold because he wanted to shoot a zombie.

Ok, yes Andrea is on the Shane side of things.

I'd still like to know where people got the idea that Shane killed Otis.
   336. SouthSideRyan Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:25 PM (#4066627)
I didn't think Lost's ending was that horrible. The last season lost a lot of momentum cleaning up loose ends, but every character arc comes to a satisfactory conclusion in the main timeline.


I'd argue the season lost momentum creating new loose ends. You're staring 10 more episodes left in the entire series with all these questions, and we're still in the ####### temple? And for what purpose? Not to mention all the time spent in the alternate timeline, which you get invested in, only to find out that none of it really meant anything?

ETA: And they never killed off Hurley.
   337. Dale Sams Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:27 PM (#4066628)
This is as good a place as any to mention that Kirk (Original) never slept with any green-skinned women. Wasn't particularly fist-first. At the Academy was a 'stack of books with legs'. And #######, Shatner did an amazing job with him. Especially in the first two seasons. Admittedly, after second season Trek (1967?) I never saw him do the fantastic job he did on Trek and Twilight Zone, except for some flashes of brilliance* in The Andersonville Trials.

Fast-forward and everyone thinks Kirk is a hot-headed lothario and that Shatner is the biggest ham on the planet. Ugh. This is a planet that also includes BRIAN BLESSED, by the way.

*Not including the amazing self-deprecating "Has-Been" album of course.
   338. Mike A Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:33 PM (#4066631)
I think the way Shane kinda half-heartedly and shiftily answered questions about what happened to Otis made him seem like he was hiding something.

The comic was solid, but I don't agree with those who think it's far superior to the TV show. Some characters were better in the comic (Lori, Andrea, etc), some are better in the show (Shane, Glen, Hershel). I enjoy them both, somewhat equally.

I do think the show could use a little dose of Michonne and/or Tyreese soon. I don't know if I want them to go the Governor route, though.
   339. Dale Sams Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:37 PM (#4066633)
Re: Walking Dead.

I can't get past the silliness of a Zombie Apocolypse in the first place*. I haven't watched admittedly. But from what I've seen, they're the typical shambling zombies right?

   340. AJMcCringleberry Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:46 PM (#4066639)
I think the way Shane kinda half-heartedly and shiftily answered questions about what happened to Otis made him seem like he was hiding something.

He told a whole story when he first came back. I don't remember (I could be wrong) anyone having a problem with it until Dale was pissed at him.

I can't get past the silliness of a Zombie Apocolypse in the first place*.

One odd thing about the show is that they apparently live in an alternate universe where zombies don't exist. By which I mean, no one calls them zombies.
   341. AJMcCringleberry Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:47 PM (#4066640)
And while I have been trashing the show, I still watch it. Can I ask for no spoilers from those who have read the comics and know what is going to happen?
   342. simon bedford Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:51 PM (#4066642)
I will second the Extras final episodes as one of the best , also "arrested development"
   343. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 09:52 PM (#4066643)
Don't worry you won't see the aliens coming.
   344. Dale Sams Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:00 PM (#4066646)
Have they explained what happened? A George Romero situation is going to be a mild inconvience. And after a while, running across a zombie would be like running across a feral dog. Except with possible legal ramifications. "There's a ####### zombie loose in pediactrics!"

Return of the Living Dead is a little more problematical, 28 Days is a BIG problem.
   345. Yonder Alonso in misguided trousers (cardinal) Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:00 PM (#4066647)
The best series finale ever (that I can think of at the moment) is the last episode of Blackadder Goes Forth.
   346. Chokeland Bill Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:03 PM (#4066649)
The finale of The Wire was pretty good, dampened only by the fact that the previous episode was even better.

The Walking Dead had a really good pilot, but the rest of the first season was pretty mediocre up until the abysmal season finale. Just really weak characters and a tendency to leave dangling plot threads (did Michael Rooker ever come back?). I haven't watched since.

One of the things I like about the OS Star Trek - Spock has the reputation as the smart one and Kirk as the fighter, but I think most would take Spock in a fight and Kirk in a mental contest (he always seems to win when they play that space chess, for example)

I do like the reboot. The plot is a weak-ish retread of Star Wars, but the actors do a great job. It definitely doesn't feel like Trek, too action-y, which is probably why a lot of hardcore Trek fans seem to hate it.
   347. McCoy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:14 PM (#4066654)
Just really weak characters and a tendency to leave dangling plot threads (did Michael Rooker ever come back?). I haven't watched since.

Only as a hallucination in one episode.
   348. Eddo Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4066656)
Definitely, Arrested Development had a great finale. I also really liked the finales for Scrubs and Veronica Mars.
   349. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:27 PM (#4066662)
The best series finale ever (that I can think of at the moment) is the last episode of Blackadder Goes Forth.


Good call.
   350. Daunte Vicknabbit! Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4066663)
The finale for S1 of Heroes was pretty good, and had the show ended there I wouldve considered it an all-time favorite for single season series. Alas, it didn't end there.
   351. Cowboy Popup Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:34 PM (#4066669)
Not a cartoon thread any more? Great finales are everywhere in cartoons. The aforementioned Cowboy Bebop (which is a far superior science fiction work then nearly everything else being discussed in this thread) has a fantastic finale, it just comes too soon. Trigun also had a totally fulfilling finale. Avatar the Last Airbender too. All of those shows were built to end though.

As for the end of Deadwood, I thought it was appropriate, but I didn't love it. I thought the entire last season of The Wire was awful.

The "finale" of Firefly was great, but it wasn't supposed to be the last episode or anything, so that doesn't count.

Edit: I'm also glad to see a lot of complaints about the Star Trek re-boot. I wasn't impressed either.
   352. Lassus Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:49 PM (#4066675)
The finale of The Wire was pretty good, dampened only by the fact that the previous episode was even better.

I understand the criticisms of the last season, but the final two episodes were excellent.


Edit: I'm also glad to see a lot of complaints about the Star Trek re-boot. I wasn't impressed either.

It had its absolute faults in a vacuum, but compared to every other reboot/remake we've been subjected to? It was ####### platinum.
   353. Cowboy Popup Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4066679)
It had its absolute faults in a vacuum, but compared to every other reboot/remake we've been subjected to? It was ####### platinum.

I guess, I don't think I've watched many recent reboots so I probably can't compare it to the group (although I've heard the Planet of the Apes reboot was pretty good). But it was a pretty thin movie that was just glossed over by loud and pervasive special effects. It was also loaded with attractive people. Other then that, I don't think it offered much of anything.
   354. cardsfanboy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 10:59 PM (#4066682)
You tell kids today that The Simpsons used to be funny and they won't believe you.


You tell adults today that it is still funny, and they have missed a couple of good seasons and they wont believe you.
   355. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: February 22, 2012 at 11:05 PM (#4066684)
You tell adults today that it is still funny, and they have missed a couple of good seasons and they wont believe you.


Especially if they've watched any of the episodes from the last couple seasons.
   356. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 22, 2012 at 11:07 PM (#4066685)
You tell kids today that The Simpsons used to be funny and they won't believe you.

You tell adults today that it is still funny, and they have missed a couple of good seasons and they wont believe you
.


I musta missed the good stuff and gotten stuck with Moe marrying a midget, Moe's talking bar towel, and Moe opening a gay bar. Oh yeah, and Principle Skinner going on your with Tommy Chong and Marge becoming a professional fighter. If I wanted 30 minutes of wacky I could sit through Family Guy, if I could sit through Family Guy.

Fox, once the home of the Simpsons and King of the Hill, now relying on Bob's Burgers for animated comedy salvation. Anyone else think the mom on that series has the most annoying voice in television history?
   357. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: February 22, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4066689)
Anyone else think the mom on that series has the most annoying voice in television history?


Nope. She's awesome.
   358. cardsfanboy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 11:31 PM (#4066702)
DS9 does have the advantage of featuring one of my all time favourite characters...Gul Dukat.


By far the best recurring villain in the Trek universe, and it's not even close, even if you are one of the people who like Q, Dukat blows him away.
   359. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: February 22, 2012 at 11:38 PM (#4066703)
In keeping with the written for and by 8th graders theme how about the fact that Kirk somehow becomes the captain of the flagship of the starfleet basically 48 hours after leaving the academy?


Yes, the worst part of the movie was the travesty they made of Kirk. It's like they remembered every SNL parody (and Shatner parodying himself) and forgot all about the original character.

Kirk was a military prodigy, the youngest captain in Star Fleet history, a genius on a par with Nelson or Nimitz. He regularly overcame his foes by out-thinking them, always one step ahead. Heck, he even was good enough to beat Spock at chess. In the movie all he does is shout at people, fly by the seat of his pants and leer at women. At no point does the character show any particular aptitude for leadership let alone come across as a natural commander.
   360. cardsfanboy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 11:40 PM (#4066705)
Am I the only one on this board who doesn't get Community?


I'm the same way, Community is continuing the cycle of comedies that I do not get at all, like The Office, Frasier, Always Funny in Philadelphia, (someone said Louie was a comedy? Really? guess I'll add that to the list, for some reason I thought comedy implied humor) etc that is the sitcom equivalent of Andy Kaufmann. For some reason every time I hear people liking those shows, I think it's a big ironic joke that people are playing on those who don't watch it.
   361. Lassus Posted: February 22, 2012 at 11:45 PM (#4066706)
Yes, the worst part of the movie was the travesty they made of Kirk. It's like they remembered every SNL parody (and Shatner parodying himself) and forgot all about the original character.

I will agree with this. The most annoying part of the film.
   362. steagles Posted: February 22, 2012 at 11:54 PM (#4066708)
I'm the same way, Community is continuing the cycle of comedies that I do not get at all, like The Office, Frasier, Always Funny in Philadelphia, (someone said Louie was a comedy? Really? guess I'll add that to the list, for some reason I thought comedy implied humor) etc that is the sitcom equivalent of Andy Kaufmann. For some reason every time I hear people liking those shows, I think it's a big ironic joke that people are playing on those who don't watch it.


i'm gonna guess you're not a fan of karl pilkington, either, are you?




   363. Gamingboy Posted: February 22, 2012 at 11:58 PM (#4066710)
Yes, the worst part of the movie was the travesty they made of Kirk. It's like they remembered every SNL parody (and Shatner parodying himself) and forgot all about the original character.

Kirk was a military prodigy, the youngest captain in Star Fleet history, a genius on a par with Nelson or Nimitz. He regularly overcame his foes by out-thinking them, always one step ahead. Heck, he even was good enough to beat Spock at chess. In the movie all he does is shout at people, fly by the seat of his pants and leer at women. At no point does the character show any particular aptitude for leadership let alone come across as a natural commander.


I remember reading somewhere that this was somewhat the point: that without his father as a influence, without having the dream of Starfleet drilled into him from a early age, he didn't become that person, and that he has to grow to become that person*. Of course, I wouldn't be surprised if that's entirely a case of "Kurtzman and Orci trying to cover their asses". That said, if that turns out to be a major part of AbramsTrek II (with Benedict Cumberbatch!), awesome.


*You see hints of SHAT!Kirk at times in the movie, most notably the offer to save Nero- a totally Kirk thing to do.

One odd thing about the show is that they apparently live in an alternate universe where zombies don't exist. By which I mean, no one calls them zombies.


I've often thought about what must happen to the creative people and actors in fictional universes. I know that in Marvel Comics they say that Marvel exists making pseudo-accurate biographical comics about the heroes. And a bunch of old novels would just say that they are writing about real events told to them by somebody. In one of the Ocean movies they make a bad joke about how Julia Roberts' character looks just like... Julia Roberts. But, like, what would the Federation Databases say about Gene Rodenberry and William Shatner? Does anybody remember Fay Wray in the King Kong universe? It's... the Celebrity Paradox.
   364. cardsfanboy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:07 AM (#4066713)
The Prequels were are never a good idea.

Ever.


Conquest of the Planet of the Apes disagrees with this. Arguably the second best Planet of the Apes film ever made. (Haven't seen the most recent ones, and the previews don't make me want to go see it. I can't get over the concept of thousands of apes in one metropolitan city in the very near future, just too hard for me to suspend my belief)
   365. cardsfanboy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:12 AM (#4066718)
I just saw the Star Trek reboot again, and it actually ages pretty well. I am looking forward to the pre-sequel.


There was a Star Trek reboot and I missed it? I did see a movie with Star Trek in the title, and none of the soul of Star Trek a year or two back, it was a good action movie, with by far the dumbest villain motivations in the history of movies, but it sure as heck wasn't Star Trek.

With Lost, the Sopranos, Battlestar... has there in the past ten years been a popular show that had a finale people LIKED?


The Shield had a good ending.
   366. Dale Sams Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4066724)
Conquest of the Planet of the Apes disagrees with this. Arguably the second best Planet of the Apes film ever made


Back in the day it was

1.
3.
4.
2.
5.

These days I can't get through the third one. I greatly enjoy Beneath and Conquest....and at least the fifth one has "Now! Fight like apes!!", and John Huston's bittersweet ending.
   367. zonk Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:22 AM (#4066725)
three thoughts...

1) Just to reiterate from pages ago, the Simpsons has recovered a fair bit. It's not episode after episode of quality - the bar towel ep was a misfire - but I still think the christmas/holiday episode from this season was a gem and the 500th was quite good. It's not season 6 anymore... Deal with it. It's aging -- at 2 1/2 times the age -- much better than Family Guy, which doesn't even seem to be trying anymore.

2) The BSG finale was perfectly fine. It was appropriate. It wrapped up what needed to be wrapped up. Sure - you probably saw it coming... but so what. Overlong? It needed a long goodbye. It was 4 seasons of great television. It needed a good 45 minutes to say goodbye to the characters. The final season was a season of despair and weariness. The ship is falling apart. Key characters are dying. Everything's falling apart... walking around under the sun was a perfect ending.

3) I'm not a big comics/graphic novel fan - so I can't speak to the print version of the Walking Dead... but I've found the 2nd season to be just fine... and Shane is a #########. Zombie apocalypse doesn't give one leave to be a #########.
   368. Dale Sams Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:25 AM (#4066726)
I did enjoy that Pine isn't a pretty boy. He's got bad skin and his eyes are too close together.
   369. cardsfanboy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:26 AM (#4066728)
Back in the day it was

1.
3.
4.
2.
5.

These days I can't get through the third one. I greatly enjoy Beneath and Conquest....and at least the fifth one has "Now! Fight like apes!!", and John Huston's bittersweet ending.


I probably flip flop Escape(3) and Battle(5). I just can't watch Escape at all. I honestly don't think I've ever seen it all the way through, and I love the Planet of the Ape Movies(have the box set with all five, and even the Mark Wahlberg abortion).

I sometimes prefer Conquest over the Original even.
   370. cardsfanboy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:31 AM (#4066729)
1) Just to reiterate from pages ago, the Simpsons has recovered a fair bit. It's not episode after episode of quality - the bar towel ep was a misfire - but I still think the christmas/holiday episode from this season was a gem and the 500th was quite good. It's not season 6 anymore... Deal with it. It's aging -- at 2 1/2 times the age -- much better than Family Guy, which doesn't even seem to be trying anymore.


Agreed, earlier in the thread people were talking about how American Dad is better, which I thought would have been impossible, but over the past season and a half, I find myself watching American Dad before Family Guy(I record them then watch later) I didn't think that would be the case, but I haven't even watched last weeks episode of Family Guy yet and I'm probably about 4 weeks behind on the Cleveland Show.


   371. Red Menace Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:35 AM (#4066731)
IIRC the last episode of King of the Hill was sort of a throwaway episode where Bobby finds an old Ray J Johnson album.


The "finale" of KOTH was the episode where Bobby enters meat cut identification contests. It was a standard episode. but it had a coda where all the characters of the neighborhood were drawn to a cookout by the smell of meat (not the heat, natch). There was a reveal of Boomhauer's occupation.

There were four unaired episodes that later aired in syndication, including that Ray J Johnson ep. Two years previously KOTH was supposed to end and Luanne's wedding was the finale. All the characters were brought together and it ended with the gang drinking in front of the fence, with Hank surprised that he was feeling "emotions". Fox ended up picking up the show for more seasons.

In both cases the finales was understated, sweet and entirely in character.
   372. Something Other Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:42 AM (#4066735)
And while I have been trashing the show, I still watch it. Can I ask for no spoilers from those who have read the comics and know what is going to happen?
The show has already departed significantly from the comics, so you're probably okay. I'm assuming you're up to the current S2 E9 on tv.

I'd still like to know where people got the idea that Shane killed Otis.

I think the way Shane kinda half-heartedly and shiftily answered questions about what happened to Otis made him seem like he was hiding something.
Shane did look very uncomfortable in the aftermath, answered questions obliquely, then to top it off--in a strong scene--shaved his head. It's one of the things people do when they're trying to put something behind them. Not remotely conclusive, but didn't Dale all but accuse Shane to his face, and he didn't deny it? Dale saw Shane hold Rick in his gunsights, so he was more than ready to believe Shane killed Otis. Shane's done enough stuff that's off that others are ready to believe it of him--that's a nice touch, btw. The story Shane told when he returned was thin, and lacked the detail real stories often include. One of the things that made it compelling is that when he told this it was to Otis's widow, so a certain simplification or glossing was to be expected. He took cover in what's often already a cover story. Damned clever fellow is Shane, I really appreciate that kind of subtlety, and it's not rare in the series.

The comic was solid, but I don't agree with those who think it's far superior to the TV show. Some characters were better in the comic (Lori, Andrea, etc), some are better in the show (Shane, Glen, Hershel). I enjoy them both, somewhat equally.

SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER

Agreed--I've been reading them on occasion at a friend's place and I'm up to v15 of the softcover collection. The issues that take place in the prison are solid, creepy entertainment with some thoughtful philosophizing interwoven, while especially v15 in the fenced housing development was awfully tame. Which is to say, like the tv version, it has its ups and downs

I do think the show could use a little dose of Michonne and/or Tyreese soon. I don't know if I want them to go the Governor route, though.
Yup. Another strong character is going to be important, particularly if--as I think they have to--Shane departs during the next couple of episodes. I also don't think the Governor will work that well in the tv series. He's so far gone he's not much more than a cartoon character (and didn't work that well even in a comic), and those are tough to do on-screen without descending into farce. The biggest mistake they could make would be to bring the Governor in AND give the role to a ham like Tom Savini, as I've heard rumored. That would wreck the tone of the series.

I have a weakness for postapocalyptic zombie horror so I'm very probably overrating the series. Still, I'm enjoying it enormously, and was delighted that AMC contracted for 16 more episodes.

For anyone who can't get enough, there's a realistic radio zombie apocalypse drama over at http://www.zombiepodcast.com/The_Zombie_Podcast/Main.html

I've only listened to the first four episodes, but it's pretty good.
   373. Gamingboy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:42 AM (#4066736)
In both cases the finales was understated

In some ways I hope that when the Simpsons does finally end, it's like this. I mean, apparently one of the reasons the Simpsons was saved from cancellation again was so that they'll be able to have enough notice to do a grand finale. I don't like the idea of a grand finale Simpsons episode. If they want to do a grand finale, just make another movie, and make sure Kelsey Grammar is in this one.
   374. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:50 AM (#4066739)
The show has already departed significantly from the comics, so you're probably okay. I'm assuming you're up to the current S2 E9 on tv.

Yes and no. In terms of main story line I think they are basically headed in the same direction as the comics but in the little thing they have changed and added things.

As for your comic stuff I too have thought that the storyline behind the new location has been pretty lame and uninteresting.


The thing is that the direction that the comics were headed after the farm is a direction I don't see that they can head in basic cable TV show. Especially not after they created a feel and mood to the show through two seasons. They'll be added but they'll be minor characters with the violence keyed way down and consequently the mood and such will be dampened as well.
   375. zenbitz Posted: February 23, 2012 at 12:59 AM (#4066743)
AbramsKirk didnt sleep with the green skin girl, he just made out with her ... Kind of OS kirklike.
   376. Something Other Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:01 AM (#4066744)
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER

@374: I don't remember where they went after the farm--it was often a month between times at my friend's so I've lost track of the chronology. Where did they go--was that to the prison?

I dunno--they've done the hand on the crotch thing, and a man's face eaten off in gorgeous, drooling closeup... surely they can do an amputation, and an execution without feeling like they've gone too far?
   377. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:05 AM (#4066745)
One thing about Zombie outbreaks that I never understand is why (or I should say how) they get out of control?

For example The Walking Dead

As of the current episode of the show (as not to give away any possible spoilers) you become a zombie by being bitten by an already infected zombie. The virus then spreads and eventually you turn into a zombie. Okay, that is fine but there are 7 billion people on this planet and zero zombies at this time. So even if the cause of the outbreak is some sort of weaponized virus the zombies are still going to be an extremely tiny segment of the entire population. And they are mindless bags with teeth going up against advanced civilizations. How in the world does the US military lose to zombies? It is an impossibility. It can't happen. Zombies are not going to over run a column tanks and armored vehicles. The human population can simply not get wiped out as depicted in the Walking Dead.
   378. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:08 AM (#4066747)
376: Yes

I'm not saying they can't show violent things or grotesque things. I'm saying the mood and tenor of the show would have to change to the new conditions as well and I don't know if they can or want to do that. Plus it could become a HBO Rome type thing where they simply have no budget to do the sprawling spectacle.
   379. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:09 AM (#4066748)
As of the current episode of the show (as not to give away any possible spoilers) you become a zombie by being bitten by an already infected zombie.


In the comic anyone who dies of any cause gets reanimated as long as they're appropriately intact.
   380. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:14 AM (#4066751)
Which doesn't alter the point in my post in anyway.
   381. mex4173 Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:23 AM (#4066758)
Not a cartoon thread any more? Great finales are everywhere in cartoons. The aforementioned Cowboy Bebop (which is a far superior science fiction work then nearly everything else being discussed in this thread) has a fantastic finale, it just comes too soon. Trigun also had a totally fulfilling finale. Avatar the Last Airbender too. All of those shows were built to end though.
More cartoons, Justice League Unlimited had a wonderful finale.
   382. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:25 AM (#4066759)
It might. Lots of people die every day for no reason at all, start throwing some hysteria into the equation and you could have a horde pretty quickly. Besides you don't even know the extent to which any vestiges of government exists, the Skull & Bones guys could just be hunkered down at the Bohemian Grove, waiting for the plague to burn itself out.
   383. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:37 AM (#4066763)
And lots of people are alive everyday. Mindless teeth vs very powerful and modern weapons has a clear winner every time.
   384. steagles Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:41 AM (#4066764)
I'd still like to know where people got the idea that Shane killed Otis.
it could be that they ended that episode by cutting back to shane shooting otis in the knee at the high school. i mean, technically the walkers killed otis, but shane definitely had a hand in it.
   385. Dog on the sidewalk Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:42 AM (#4066765)
No one has mentioned The Life of Times of Tim, which I am very much a fan of. I'm not sure if the series is over or not, but if the last episode was indeed the series finale, it was a fitting end, though not the high point of the series.
   386. hokieneer Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:44 AM (#4066766)
Just wanted to state some of my opinoins on current tv shows:

Archer - every time I watch it, I thoroughly enjoy it. My problem is I haven't watched a season thru, I always seem to forget it's on, forget to DVR it, etc.

Community - great show, love it. I'm glad there is at least a date for it coming back.

Family Guy - stopped being funny after the 1st season it was back on FOX. American Dad has far surpassed it in terms of current quality and is pretty damn close to overall catalog quality.

Parks and Rec - For me, this season of Parks and Rec is slowing becoming one of my all time favorite of any tv comedy. It's continuing to be fresh while also being familiar, the characters are starting to break out of their predefined roles, it's been touching and human at appropriate times, and all while being very funny.

Venture Brothers - for some reason I had never watched an episode until a few weeks ago. Now I'm trying to watch all I can. Such a great show.

Big Bang - mildly entertaining at first, now it's just pathetic.

HIMYM - Well, I'm still watching, sometimes begrudgingly. Over the last 1.5 seasons it's recovered some, but not to the point it once was.


I caught the 2 hour premier of The River, but haven't got to check out the next 2 episodes. Seems like it might be entertaining enough.
   387. Something Other Posted: February 23, 2012 at 01:49 AM (#4066767)
The human population can simply not get wiped out as depicted in the Walking Dead.
Well, yeah, there's definitely no way especially slow twitch zombies are going to become the dominant form of life. Zombies are a you-gotta-go-with-it deal, like warp drive and time travel.

SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER

I'm not saying they can't show violent things or grotesque things. I'm saying the mood and tenor of the show would have to change to the new conditions as well and I don't know if they can or want to do that. Plus it could become a HBO Rome type thing where they simply have no budget to do the sprawling spectacle.
Ah, okay. Unless they got a deal on a used prison, budget would definitely be an issue, but I think they could do half a season of truly dark stuff without losing their audience.

They might also be able to scale down a prison to a more affordable setting while keeping the metaphor of the prison alive and well. A gated community of some kind...?

It would make for lousy tv, but the first thing I'd do in an emergency camping out situation would be to jack a few hundred feet of roll fencing and string a few hundred cans from the fencing that I surrounded my tents with. (Not that there's any way in hell I'd be sleeping in anything other than my car if solid housing wasn't available.) Second thing I'd do is aim for a small island close to shore meaning I could clear the island of zombies while keeping access to the mainland for regular food runs. Set up a broadcasting and receiving arrangment and see how things evolved.

it could be that they ended that episode by cutting back to shane shooting otis in the knee at the high school. i mean, technically the walkers killed otis, but shane definitely had a hand in it.
I think the original question here had to do with how the group, or Dale in particular figured out that Shane directly caused Otis's death. Speaking of which, why does Shane get a pass on the whole fiasco at the campground in season one? He was at least nominally in charge when the walkers attacked without warning. Where was the night watch? Why were tents scattered here and there instead of within a circle of vehicles and other obstacles?

What happened with Rome?
   388. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: February 23, 2012 at 02:10 AM (#4066772)
Well, yeah, there's definitely no way especially slow twitch zombies are going to become the dominant form of life. Zombies are a you-gotta-go-with-it deal, like warp drive and time travel.


I think it depends on the initial etiology of the infection. Bubonic plague wiped out half of Europe's population twice, the 1918 flu pandemic infected something like 25% of global population, if you get a virulent lethal bug to give you that initial horde of several million to the millions added every day through other mortality and you'll need to call out the Avengers.
   389. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 02:10 AM (#4066773)
Rome never had the budget for the big battle scenes. I believe they showed cohort or whatever a small group of soldiers is called fighting Roman style in the first episode and then we never had a battle scene again. We would have stuff like Augustus and Antony sitting on a horse while off in the distance a battle was supposedly taking place and then the two leads would charge there way off camera or we had Caesar closing the gates and then gates open and he is triumphant.

I'm not really concerned about a prison set so much as the constant need for a large amount of actors, extras, and special effects that the next area would require in almost every single episode. But yeah, the next chapter would require a lot more sets than they currently have.



I've thought about what I would do as well in a zombie outbreak that got as bad as The Walking Dead. I've restrained my fantasy to me having to deal with the situation where I currently live. So stuff like remote mountain retreats and islands are out of the equation for me. I would basically wall off my block with cars and any dividers I could haul around. Ring everything with barbwire and sandbags. Go door to door on my block clearing them all out. Going around the neighborhood stockpiling goods and weapons. Making sure every house on my block had easy access to the roofs and start some gardens on the roofs. Granted it would all go to hell when the nuclear reactors go through a meltdown but there isn't much I could do about that.
   390. McCoy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 02:13 AM (#4066775)
The bubonic plague wiped a ton of people over many years, decades, and centuries. Nor did the bubonic plague require a 180 pound human to bite you to kick start the infection. Nor did the medieval times have the weapons needed to adequately fight the disease. Whereas we do have the weapons to adequately fight a zombie outbreak. There shouldn't be a military in the world that would lose to zombies as depicted in The Walking Dead.

Something like 155,000 people in the world die each day. That is the entire world. Even if there is an initial outbreak that causes a large number of people to turn those zombies have to survive a very long time in an extremely hostile environment to overwhelm the world's societies.
   391. fuzzycopper Posted: February 23, 2012 at 02:23 AM (#4066779)
The first Venture Bros episode I caught was the one where the opening segment's dialogue was largely lifted from the lyrics to Bowie's Space Oddity. I've been a fan ever since.

It would've been nice had Rome tossed in a few large-scale battles from time to time. I fear that Game of Thrones will suffer similarly due to budget constraints.
   392. Dock Ellis on Acid Posted: February 23, 2012 at 02:47 AM (#4066784)
The Simpsons these years are a lot better when the storylines feature Milhouse and/or Nelson. Otherwise I find it putrid and close to watchable.
   393. jyjjy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 03:14 AM (#4066787)
It would've been nice had Rome tossed in a few large-scale battles from time to time. I fear that Game of Thrones will suffer similarly due to budget constraints.


I only watched the first 5 episodes of Rome but I thought what it needed more was a single likeable character.
   394.   Posted: February 23, 2012 at 03:22 AM (#4066788)
The Shield? Rescue Me? Deadwood?


Did Rescue Me end? I think I lost it somewhere around the end of Season 6, when it was just getting far too ridiculous. Damn, was that a good show in the beginning though.
   395. CrosbyBird Posted: February 23, 2012 at 03:52 AM (#4066790)
I've always said that the prequels should have had nothing to do with Darth or any of the characters from the original trilogy outside of the Emperor. It should have taken place 80 years before or something like that and they should have scrapped the whole good turning into evil character study thing. It should have been quite obvious to George that he can't do those kind of stories.

You could make some great movies with these characters.

Episode I begins with Anakin as an old teenager/young adult (mirroring Luke in Episode IV). The pod race, Anakin building C-3PO, and the ship battle at the end become much more reasonable because of Anakin's age. You've still got Darth Maul killing Qui-Gon, but the ending is different. Darth Maul toys with Obi-Wan, clearly the better fighter, but Anakin lashes out at Maul with the Force and Obi-Wan kills Maul). This demonstrates that Anakin is remarkably powerful in the Force; with no training, he was able to shatter the concentration of a highly competent Sith Lord. Obi-Wan trains Anakin against the council's wishes.

Episode II has Anakin and Obi-Wan running around the galaxy righting wrongs (both rogue Jedi, not supported by the council). They meet Padme for the first time, Anakin rescues her, and they gradually fall in love. That really has to happen, and it has to be a really great love affair, because of where it's going to go. Anakin becomes increasingly resistant to limits on his experimentation with the Force, reckless, ambitious, etc. He's already much stronger with the Force than Obi-Wan, but he's not disciplined. He's clearly becoming unstable... we see heavy-handed use of power, collateral damage that he shrugs off as insignificant, etc. Anakin throws his lot in with Palpatine because Palpatine offers him training without restriction; this causes a very pregnant Padme to recognize that he's a lost cause and to leave with Obi-Wan. Padme gives birth to the twins and Anakin shows up soon after. Obi-Wan has taken the twins away in order to keep them from Anakin. Anakin demands to see his son (he doesn't know that there were twins), and when Padme refuses, Anakin kills her in a fit of rage. He blames Obi-Wan rather than himself and we have the battle that practically ends Episode III, where Anakin is crippled and terribly burned.

Episode III has Darth Vader hunting down all of the other Jedi and executing them, while Palpatine seizes more and more power. The Empire starts treating non-humans as second-class citizens. We see Yoda escape, Obi-Wan go into hiding, and the twins placed with their foster-parents. Perhaps we have brief shoutouts to other characters: Chewbacca escaping from the Empire's attack on Kashyyyk on the Millenium Falcon -- perhaps having to dump his cargo to hide Chewbacca is the job gone wrong that causes the trouble with Jabba the Hutt; C-3PO gets memory-wiped and sold to the Jawas; etc.

There's your great prequels.
   396. Red Menace Posted: February 23, 2012 at 04:13 AM (#4066791)
395

Bingo! This was the fatal problem with the prequel trilogy from the beginning; the structure is all wrong. As is Episode 1 is completely irrelevant and everything interesting that is hinted at in the original films happens after Episode 3. Your structure is a million time better.

Also there should be no clone pawns and no robots. There are no stakes when they die. I'd always imagined the "clone wars" as Timothy Zahn's books suggested, with people fighting copies of themselves.
   397. CrosbyBird Posted: February 23, 2012 at 04:25 AM (#4066793)
   398. Greg K Posted: February 23, 2012 at 05:33 AM (#4066799)
I only watched the first 5 episodes of Rome but I thought what it needed more was a single likeable character.

You don't like Pullo? And Mark Antony is one of the all time best characters on television...though it takes him until season two to really shine.

I thought the major strength of Rome was that they kept the characters true to their time. Sure, Vorenus owns slaves and appears willing to kill his wife, and Pullo murders a slave in a fit of jealousy (it's interesting that here Vorenus is more upset that he destroyed some of his property than killed a human being). The most annoying thing for me about hisorical drama is when the main character is obviously a 21st century person stuck in a socially backwards world full of people who "don't get it". It's annoying on two levels - 1) it takes away from the me getting immersed in the environment and 2) it's insulting to the audience, thinking we need a modern character to point out all the cultural differences through contrast (or explicit complaining), rather than simply observation.

In that sense I think Rome is a great template for how to do historical drama.
   399. jyjjy Posted: February 23, 2012 at 07:29 AM (#4066804)
You don't like Pullo?


If I recall properly when I stopped watching his most notable recent activities were stabbing someone through the throat for cheating at dice then attempting to slaughter everyone the man was with followed by helping torture and kill a man for sleeping with his friend's wife... but yeah, he was indeed the most likeable character. Mark Antony didn't figure into the first five episodes much so I can't say much about him. It was clearly a well made show but even a dark, violent political drama needs to have characters you can care about(see Game of Thrones.)
   400. Lassus Posted: February 23, 2012 at 08:02 AM (#4066807)
What happened with Rome?

Burned, duh.
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