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Monday, February 20, 2012

Deadspin: The Making Of “Homer At The Bat”

How big was this episode:

On Feb. 20, 1992, more American homes tuned into The Simpsons than they did The Cosby Show or the Winter Olympics from Albertville, France. A foul-mouthed cartoon on a fourth-place network bested the Huxtables and the world’s best amateur athletes. Fox over NBC and CBS—its first-ever victory in prime time. New over old.

And how were the players who were on the show:

Showrunner Al Jean has said the players who committed were more than happy to do the show. Well, almost of all of them. “They were all really nice,” Jean said on the DVD commentary, “except for one whose name rhymes with Manseco.”

Mark S. is bored Posted: February 20, 2012 at 08:30 PM | 1075 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: television

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   801. McCoy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4082995)
Do Zombies ####?

Do androids dream of electric sheep?
   802. Something Other Posted: March 17, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4083075)
Am I the only human watching and enjoying The Walking Dead? I almost never hear anyone speak positively of it, but obviously it's doing well, or well enough to be renewed for 16 delicious episodes.

I think I'm a lot more accepting of it because I think it's a clear case of reach exceeding grasp. It's got more characters than most other shows, by a fair margin. It's on location. They went through a showrunner change, and the showrunner just happened to be the guy who developed it all.

This is just a devilishly difficult show to do well, so I accept silliness like a herd of zombies materializing in close proximity to Rick and Carl and instead of insisting the writers get that kind of thing right (not that there's anything wrong with that), I fill in the blanks. A scene or two every episode showing zombies hearing very distant gunshots, and slowly turning in that direction, would have set the scene up much better. It WAS a flaw, a big one, that the best they came up with was zombies appearing in the distance apparently in response to Carl's gunshot. That definitely sacrificed way too much believability for the sake of one startling camera shot. I think it's the kind of show that is best appreciated in broad strokes. Who's a painter whose approach is very crude, but gets results nonetheless? Some of de Kooning is like that. Woman with Bicycle is probably a good parallel to The Walking Dead.

Reminds me, btw, of the zombies appearing in a too-sudden flood seconds after Shane chucked that wrench through a window. Or hey, since he had the time to make it to the car, why hadn't Shane already bolted through the back of the bus instead of barely keeping the door shut? There were houses and buildings nearby. Even if Rick hadn't come back, Shane would have had a pretty good shot at outrunning the walkers and shutting himself in a building. They should have had him injure his leg a bit, or heaped a bunch of junked cars or erected a fence in a semi-circle around the rear exit of the bus that would have forced him back in the direction of the walkers if the car hadn't pulled up.

It's a show that really, really penalizes mistakes like that and shines floodlights on them, and mistakes are inevitable in any tv show, especially one with a lot of different writers. Mistakes and flaws exist even in big budget films that take years to produce and complete. Instead of two years to make one hundred minutes, though, here you've got something like three weeks to make forty three minutes. That's on the order of one-fifteenth the time (and at $275,000 an episode around 1/70th of the budget) you have to make a full-length film. I'm impressed the show is anywhere near as good as it is.

   803. Dale Sams Posted: March 17, 2012 at 01:48 PM (#4083081)
Do you remember Woops! too?


Ha! No....but I remember "The Fantastic Journey" with Roddy McDowell, and Ike Eisenmann.
   804. Dale Sams Posted: March 17, 2012 at 01:55 PM (#4083086)
I haven't watched closely, but I'll bet a lot of hand-wringing over the quality of the show is because of missed potential. I did the same thing over Jericho and Lost...obviously Lost managed to succeed in spite of my complaints.
   805. McCoy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4083099)
Am I the only human watching and enjoying The Walking Dead? I almost never hear anyone speak positively of it, but obviously it's doing well, or well enough to be renewed for 16 delicious episodes.

I'll watch almost anything with zombies in it. My three weaknesses are zombie apocalypses, vampire societies, and angels vs demons movies.
   806. Something Other Posted: March 17, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4083105)
@804: Most of what I hear is

--poor writing
--implausibility
--unappealing characters

It's funny, because I don't really disagree with any of that. The writing certainly could be better. As I noted, there's some awfully implausible stuff. And Shane was one of the more appealing characters on the show. Carl is a completely unlikable child, and last episode the battered woman got on my nerves.

@805: Legion was a good test of one's tolerance for angels versus demons movies. What did you think?

edit: re TWD, I mean, we're talking about a show that's inherently implausible. Any sane group is going to be finding a gated community, holing up, and only venturing out when they need to stock up on supplies. Not a terribly interesting show in that. No one else would survive more than a couple of weeks. Asking for plausibility is probably unreasonable, though that still leaves the writing and the characters. I've also heard complaints about the acting, though I have yet to hear any complaints about the zombie set pieces or make-up.
   807. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: March 17, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4083133)
i think i've come around on matt smith. i just absolutely love his facial expressions.
   808. McCoy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 03:31 PM (#4083167)
This is just a devilishly difficult show to do well, so I accept silliness like a herd of zombies materializing in close proximity to Rick and Carl and instead of insisting the writers get that kind of thing right (not that there's anything wrong with that), I fill in the blanks. A scene or two every episode showing zombies hearing very distant gunshots, and slowly turning in that direction, would have set the scene up much better. It WAS a flaw, a big one, that the best they came up with was zombies appearing in the distance apparently in response to Carl's gunshot. That definitely sacrificed way too much believability for the sake of one startling camera shot. I think it's the kind of show that is best appreciated in broad strokes. Who's a painter whose approach is very crude, but gets results nonetheless? Some of de Kooning is like that. Woman with Bicycle is probably a good parallel to The Walking Dead.

I think they are trying to keep the sound-swarm thing a surprise to the viewer. Just like they did in the comic book. They want you to experience the zombie apocalypse as if you are one of the survivors. So from that perspective you won't see a zombie 5 miles away hearing the shot. I do recall that once it is known that the gunshots draw zombies the comic book would show zombies from miles away responding to the sound.


Reminds me, btw, of the zombies appearing in a too-sudden flood seconds after Shane chucked that wrench through a window. Or hey, since he had the time to make it to the car, why hadn't Shane already bolted through the back of the bus instead of barely keeping the door shut? There were houses and buildings nearby. Even if Rick hadn't come back, Shane would have had a pretty good shot at outrunning the walkers and shutting himself in a building. They should have had him injure his leg a bit, or heaped a bunch of junked cars or erected a fence in a semi-circle around the rear exit of the bus that would have forced him back in the direction of the walkers if the car hadn't pulled up.



I agree with you on the Shane and the compound fight. On thought it was bad writing to have the swarm come out only once Shane breaks the window and I thought it was stupid that somehow a perfectly mobile Shane is pinned at the door of the bus.

   809. McCoy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4083171)
@805: Legion was a good test of one's tolerance for angels versus demons movies. What did you think?

Like I said I'm a sucker for those types of movies. It wasn't a great movie by any stretch of the imagination but I have watched it a few times despite its flaws.
   810. Lassus Posted: March 17, 2012 at 04:01 PM (#4083189)
Shane would have had a pretty good shot at outrunning the walkers

I know this must have been addressed 100,000 times before, but these zombies seem rather specifically slow. I can't imagine how they are that hard to keep ahead of in the country. In a city, given just mobs of them, sure, but even on the show they generally seem rather scarce.
   811. McCoy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 04:30 PM (#4083208)
Cue the next 300 post debate on why a zombie apocalypse would never happen.
   812. shock Posted: March 17, 2012 at 06:10 PM (#4083265)
Am I the only human watching and enjoying The Walking Dead?


Is this facetious? Half the thread has been about that show. At least, that's what people were talking about last time I checked this thread 3 weeks ago.

I'm about 4 episodes behind, I guess. Just kinda lost interest.
   813. NTNgod Posted: March 17, 2012 at 06:39 PM (#4083273)
I almost never hear anyone speak positively of it, but obviously it's doing well, or well enough to be renewed for 16 delicious episodes

It got something like 3.6 in the 18-49 demo last week. As a non-reality cable show. Those are mega-ratings.
   814. Something Other Posted: March 17, 2012 at 07:21 PM (#4083286)
Shane would have had a pretty good shot at outrunning the walkers

I know this must have been addressed 100,000 times before, but these zombies seem rather specifically slow. I can't imagine how they are that hard to keep ahead of in the country. In a city, given just mobs of them, sure, but even on the show they generally seem rather scarce.
Well, wrt your slow twitch zombie, TWD's walkers seem to be of the speedy variety. They seem to move at a fast walk when hungry or agitated, so a human jogging would stay ahead of them, but they'd be a threat to catch someone with a limp or any sort of injury. They move at the right speed for this kind of drama. Romero's zombies wouldn't present any kind of real threat to an armed group with a sturdy house they've had time to prepare, and the infected of 28 ____ don't allow for strategy, or even much in the way of tactics.

Is this facetious?
No--of a lot of posts here and around the web, the bulk of what I see is lukewarm at best and often less kind than that.

I'm about 4 episodes behind, I guess. Just kinda lost interest.
Er, kind of my point.
   815. McCoy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 07:42 PM (#4083295)
No--of a lot of posts here and around the web, the bulk of what I see is lukewarm at best and often less kind than that.

Well, the second season has been the disappointment for the fans of TWD season 1. The first half of this season was absolutely horrible while the second half was hit or miss. It will be interesting to see how well they build off of season 2 in the ensuing seasons.
   816. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: March 17, 2012 at 07:55 PM (#4083297)
i am just now getting up to the 2-part series 5 finale of doctor who.

so far, i think the build to it has been okay. the growing crack in space and time that's been present throughout the season has done a fine job of tying everything together, but i think the build to this finale has lacked in the same kind of ominous portending that the "bad wolf" thing had in series 1 and that the ghosts had in series 2, and that the watch had in series 3.

i don't know that they can pay off the crack in time in as rewarding a manner as they payed off those things through the first 3 series.
   817. Something Other Posted: March 17, 2012 at 08:29 PM (#4083322)
Well, the second season has been the disappointment for the fans of TWD season 1. The first half of this season was absolutely horrible while the second half was hit or miss. It will be interesting to see how well they build off of season 2 in the ensuing seasons.
I recently re-watched the first half of season 2 with friends and found the criticism of it overblown. Certainly the first three episodes are filled with action, as is the seventh. It only slows down in episodes 4, 5, and 6, but I don't see caesuras as bad things. Daryl becomes a real character in that run, as does Andrea. And Glen. When I press people for details I invariably get some pretty vague stuff: "It drags". "The dialog is lame". It feels like they were expecting 12 * 43m of the Dawn of the Dead remake.
   818. shock Posted: March 17, 2012 at 08:48 PM (#4083331)
The thing is that 3 bad episodes when you're watching in realtime just kinda kills a show. That's three weeks where nothing happens, three excruciating hours of tedium. Even most terrible movies are less than 3 hours long, James Cameron aside, and to have it spread out over three weeks just destroys momentum. It's hard to re-kindle interest after that, at least for me.

WTS, I'm sure I'll go back and watch at some point. Just don't feel like it right now.

edit: And reading the episode list on wiki, I would add episode 7 as well tbph. So four episodes.
   819. McCoy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 08:54 PM (#4083333)
First episode was fine but then they don't go anywhere for several episodes with many of the episodes repeating the same themes over and over. They keep on chugging along with the same storyline (hunt for the little girl) and again dragging out the same themes time after time. Outside of the first episode, Shane's flashback to the Otis killing and the last they had very little zombie interaction. Daryl's storyline in the first half was quite good and many of the critics have praised his work in the first half. Glen's character still wasn't really developed in the first half. He was a gopher with a big mouth who somehow stumbles into sex. Stuff happened to him but he wasn't a vibrant character. It just happened and we got the same blank stare and stutter after each event.

The basically took plot and storylines that could have been handled in two to three shows and dragged them out to seven episodes. The second half suffers slightly from that problem in that the 6 episodes probably could have been done in 4. In terms of storylines and plots they really only had about a half season worth of stuff but they dragged it out to a full season. In the comic book they don't stay on the farm for long.
   820. McCoy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 08:57 PM (#4083336)
The thing is that 3 bad episodes when you're watching in realtime just kinda kills a show.

This. When I download a whole series you can have a bunch of down episodes because you can breeze right through and in about two hours you'll get to something good but watching these shows weekly really kills it. Season 2 started on October 16th and the first half ended on November 27th. So that is around 5 hours worth of content that took around a month and a half to unfold.
   821. shock Posted: March 17, 2012 at 08:58 PM (#4083338)
Glen is painful to watch. I know it's based on source material so the show can't help it, but, guh, I cringe everytime he's on screen. So ####### stereotyped.
   822. McCoy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 09:01 PM (#4083339)
Glen is painful to watch. I know it's based on source material so the show can't help it, but, guh, I cringe everytime he's on screen. So ####### stereotyped.

Glen for the most part was a non-entity in the comic book after the rescuing of Rick in Atlanta storyline. In a lot of ways he is the T-Dog of the comic book. Every so often they give him some lines let him voice some concerns but then they quickly move away from him.
   823. Lassus Posted: March 17, 2012 at 09:24 PM (#4083349)
Glen is painful to watch. I know it's based on source material so the show can't help it, but, guh, I cringe everytime he's on screen. So ####### stereotyped.

Stereotyped? I feel kind of dumb, but how? He seems like a regular kid.
   824. shock Posted: March 17, 2012 at 09:30 PM (#4083352)
I don't know. I feel like I can predict exactly what he is going to say and exactly what he's going to do, and exactly how he's going to react to everything, just based on the typical skinny-nerd role.
   825. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 17, 2012 at 09:33 PM (#4083355)
i don't know that they can pay off the crack in time in as rewarding a manner as they payed off those things through the first 3 series.


Moffat has said that he is working through a multi-season story arc, so don't be disappointed if he doesn't resolve everything (anything?).
   826. Lassus Posted: March 17, 2012 at 09:35 PM (#4083358)
Moffat's resolution of River Song makes me nervous afraid for the 50th anniversary.
   827. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 17, 2012 at 09:42 PM (#4083360)
I've only watched one episode of Season 6 Who so am missing a lot of the puzzle. In fact, I also missed an entire season of Tennant, events from which have apparently been referenced.
   828. cardsfanboy Posted: March 17, 2012 at 09:43 PM (#4083361)
@805: Legion was a good test of one's tolerance for angels versus demons movies. What did you think?

Like I said I'm a sucker for those types of movies. It wasn't a great movie by any stretch of the imagination but I have watched it a few times despite its flaws.



I'm a sucker for those type also, just don't think there are enough made to justify it as it's own niche.
   829. Dale Sams Posted: March 17, 2012 at 10:14 PM (#4083367)
The Prophecy? A Walken-Mortensen hamfest.
   830. NTNgod Posted: March 17, 2012 at 10:35 PM (#4083374)
Mortensen's in that for like five minutes, as I recall. Granted, he was just some no-name Random Dude when that came out.

Eric Stoltz had a much bigger role, and then Jennifer Beals took the "former '80s star/recognizable name" role in Part II.
   831. cardsfanboy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4083474)
Gabriel was a pretty interesting Angel vs Demon movie, but the genre is really untapped. And of course many of these movies want to stay realistic to some extent, when the warrior angel is one of the coolest images imaginable, factor in a well designed demon and the visuals of these type of movies can be great, I just don't think enough of them exist.
   832. J. Lowenstein Apathy Club Posted: March 18, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4083480)
"Have we really come this far an nobody's commented on the revelation that Steve Sax is a life coach now?"

Huh, that one went right over my head.
   833. Something Other Posted: March 18, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4083497)
I'll have to disagree w most of youse wrt especially the first half of season 2 of TWD. I found the deepening arcs of most of the characters thoroughly compelling. The one thing I'd do as showrunner is instruct my writers: "You may not show two people standing still and talking".

I thought Legion wasn't a very good movie, but perfectly watchable with more than enough odd bits to keep me engaged. What did fans think of Constantine? Keanu was surprisingly tolerable, and anything with Rachel Wiesz gets a pass from me.
   834. smileyy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 12:54 PM (#4083500)
I'm a sucker for Angels v. Demons movies, exorcism movies...really, anything with Christian mythology (even better if its Catholic)

(i hope I don't offend with that term, but its the best I can think of, and I'm a non-believer)
   835. cardsfanboy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4083507)
I'm with you Smileyy(and I'm also a non-believer) Although exorcism movies aren't my thing as much as devil movies(I prefer the Omen over the Exorcist) And of course anything that can have a full on battle angel is going to get props from me.(Dogma, even with Ben Affleck works)

I thought Legion wasn't a very good movie, but perfectly watchable with more than enough odd bits to keep me engaged. What did fans think of Constantine? Keanu was surprisingly tolerable, and anything with Rachel Wiesz gets a pass from me.


I really wanted Legion to be a good movie and it really wasn't. As far as Constantine is considered, as long as you don't care about the source material it was a solid C(average) movie.
   836. McCoy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4083539)
I'll have to disagree w most of youse wrt especially the first half of season 2 of TWD. I found the deepening arcs of most of the characters thoroughly compelling.

Well, I guess you can call falling through quicksand deepening.
   837. Lassus Posted: March 18, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4083541)
I'd rate Constantine higher, although not a TON higher, still thought it was a bit above average. Errrrr solid low B, without being a B-. Splitting hairs, probably.
   838. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 18, 2012 at 02:31 PM (#4083563)
I'd rate Constantine higher, although not a TON higher, still thought it was a bit above average. Errrrr solid low B, without being a B-. Splitting hairs, probably.

I agree. B to B- is roughly where I would put it.

Also, I have tried watching the Exorcist, but I was banished from the viewing room for laughing too much...
   839. cardsfanboy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 02:37 PM (#4083570)
Originally I wrote above average, but then I backed off from that comment, figuring the average comment would be safe.
   840. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: March 18, 2012 at 06:22 PM (#4083738)
i am just now getting up to the 2-part series 5 finale of doctor who.

so far, i think the build to it has been okay. the growing crack in space and time that's been present throughout the season has done a fine job of tying everything together, but i think the build to this finale has lacked in the same kind of ominous portending that the "bad wolf" thing had in series 1 and that the ghosts had in series 2, and that the watch had in series 3.

i don't know that they can pay off the crack in time in as rewarding a manner as they payed off those things through the first 3 series.
i actually really liked the finale. i was thinking that they were just gonna bring back all of the big baddies (daleks, cybermen, sontarans, etc) and have the same kind of action-heavy free for all that they had in season 4's finale, but it was nothing like that. it was much more cerebral than i was expecting.

there were some time-travely things that stretched the imagination (namely, that the doctor gave rory the sonic screwdriver at stonehenge, but the doctor was locked in the pandorica at the time, and without the screwdriver, he couldn't get out of the pandorica to give it to rory to get him out of it), and i kind of wish they hadn't ended on such a positive note, but i guess they didn't feel comfortable ending the season with the doctor in the void between universes.


so far, in terms of enjoyability, i'd rank the seasons 2-5-3-1-4, and the finales 2-5-1-3------4. and after a bit of an adjustment, i think matt smith has become my favorite of the 3 doctors in the reboot.

as for companions, martha, rose, and amy are fairly close together at the top. and donna is at the back of the pack by a large margin.
   841. Lassus Posted: March 18, 2012 at 06:44 PM (#4083756)
as for companions, martha, rose, and amy are fairly close together at the top. and donna is at the back of the pack by a large margin.

I was anti-Donna for awhile, but the pretty/hot/snappy/young damsel-in-distress repetition of Amy Pond really gave me a lot more appreciation for her (Donna) as a genuine departure. And she is probably the best actress of any of them.
   842. cardsfanboy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4083798)
so far, in terms of enjoyability, i'd rank the seasons 2-5-3-1-4, and the finales 2-5-1-3------4. and after a bit of an adjustment, i think matt smith has become my favorite of the 3 doctors in the reboot.


Season 6 finale really bites. Half way through the season, when they had the mid season finale, that was pretty decent, but probably should have been drawn out even more. There really was enough that they could have made that one episode at least a true two parter if not a three parter(although they are really avoiding explaining who/what the silence and the rest of the army against him, are)

Because of this thread I went back and watched the episodes I really enjoyed from season 6 and it's telling to me, how many I bothered to skip. I watched the first two episodes with the silence, the doctor's wife, the mid season finale and let's kill Hitler, and begrudgingly the episode with Craig again. But there were just so many episodes that I skipped over because they felt like it would be a chore to watch them a fourth time.

It's hard for me to rank the seasons because some of the seasons had major clunkers with great episodes---season four had some of my favorite episodes(the two part Sontaran episode, Doctor's daughter, two part finale which I absolutely loved I would probably rank the finales almost the opposite of your ranking 3-4-1-5-----2------------6) and utter garbage like the Agatha Christie episode---I'm torn on the worse season but if I had to pick it would probably be season 3, it completely lacks any genuinely great episode outside of the finale.

there were some time-travely things that stretched the imagination (namely, that the doctor gave rory the sonic screwdriver at stonehenge, but the doctor was locked in the pandorica at the time, and without the screwdriver, he couldn't get out of the pandorica to give it to rory to get him out of it),


At that time I felt like I was watching Bill and Ted, which isn't an insult because I've always felt that it was a nice way to take advantage of time travel. That finale was one of my favorite finales.

   843. cardsfanboy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 10:00 PM (#4083912)
Watching the Simpsons and they have robots playing baseball, And even the robots think that the DH ruins a beautiful game.
   844. McCoy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 10:24 PM (#4083921)
Well, tonight's intro on the Walking Dead explained how the horde got formed.
   845. clowns to the left of me; STEAGLES to the right Posted: March 18, 2012 at 10:59 PM (#4083945)
It's hard for me to rank the seasons because some of the seasons had major clunkers with great episodes---season four had some of my favorite episodes(the two part Sontaran episode, Doctor's daughter, two part finale which I absolutely loved I would probably rank the finales almost the opposite of your ranking 3-4-1-5-----2------------6)
i've only seen it the once so i can't speak yet as to how it'll hold up on repeated viewings, but i can honestly say that there has not been a more enjoyable moment of television for me than the moment where the ghosts materialized into cybermen and the daleks emerged from their void-ship in the season 2 finale. the way that some people talk about the sixth sense (or about the reveal at the end of fight club, or probably any of the thousands of other such moments throughout film and television history) is the way i feel about that moment. just pure greatness.


looking back through the episode list, i think my impression of season 2 was enhanced because i marathoned through it, instead of just watching 1 per week, as you would in real time. for me, the buffer between episodes 6 and 7 and the series finale was a few hours or maybe a day, but if i were watching in real time, it would have been at least a month--probably 2, maybe more--in between the introduction of the cybermen and the finale where they took over. with the way i watched it, the episodes in between were only a slight buffer--basically equivalent to the divas match before the main event of a WWE PPV.

Well, tonight's intro on the Walking Dead explained how the horde got formed.
i guess i'll take a look at it, but i think i've checked out of the show for good.

   846. McCoy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 11:01 PM (#4083947)
Michonne!
   847. McCoy Posted: March 18, 2012 at 11:04 PM (#4083949)
Laurie was a huge contradictory bvtch in this episode. Andrea not being able to outrun the horde was inexplicable. And they are going to do the prison!
   848. Something Other Posted: March 19, 2012 at 01:02 AM (#4084003)
Love the way the writers only now show how the herd got rolling, and how last season's cliffhanger took a full season to be resolved.

I simply didn't buy that the group abandoned the farmhouse so quickly. They probably had a deal with the owner that they weren't allowed to trash it. Still, surely a duplicate of the front rooms and porch could have been built, and we could have been treated to a Night of the Living Dead-like scene of walkers busting through the doors and windows provoking the survivors to flee out the back.

What irritated me was the incredible lack of preparation. If I was in a group that was stationary for a while I'd be constantly wargaming scenarios. There would have been tight shutters with gunports on all the downstairs windows. Hell, it's a working farm. Hershel would have had a table saw and radial arm saw in the basement. I understand that if the characters acted the way people who lasted a month in a "real" zombie apocalypse would there'd be no show, but still... it's the job of writers to create as much plausibility as they can within the overall implausibility.

Lori's supporting Rick until the point where she thought Rick left it somehow to Carl to put down Shane was extremely well done, and sadly in keeping with her character as an opportunist who jumps to conclusions. Her special combination of naivete, self-pity, and self-absorption is uniquely unappealing, though. Not surprising that one of her rare acts of kindness, in thanking Shane, is what provoked his final round of murder. Rick's explanation overall both to Lori and to the group of why he killed Shane was weak. He made it sound like it was as much done out of pique as it was that Shane had been on the verge of killing him for a while.

Carol's dreadful. "I want a man with honor". She has a funny way of showing it. Comes the ZA, if you're not going to carry a gun, you don't get to whine. I think the writers are making mistakes in having characters almost gratuitously act like assh*!es.

Prison in the background in the closing, crane shot. Nice. I wonder if that's a red herring as apparently The Governor has already been cast. I suppose you could do eight episodes with the Gov and then move on to the prison, or combine some of the plots in the comics and get the group into the prison, and have the Governor's group drive them out...
   849. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 01:38 AM (#4084018)
Prison came first and then the Governor and then prison-Governor. Hard to have the Governor without the prison.

I can see them doing something like 6 episodes on the prison with the arrival of the Governor at the episode 6. Then the break comes and you get 7 episodes dealing with meeting the Governor, aftermath of that, and then the showdown at the end of the season.

I know I didn't think they would do the prison but I really can't see how they can go much past the Governor without seriously veering from the comics.
   850. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 02:47 AM (#4084035)
What irritated me was the incredible lack of preparation. If I was in a group that was stationary for a while I'd be constantly wargaming scenarios. There would have been tight shutters with gunports on all the downstairs windows. Hell, it's a working farm. Hershel would have had a table saw and radial arm saw in the basement. I understand that if the characters acted the way people who lasted a month in a "real" zombie apocalypse would there'd be no show, but still... it's the job of writers to create as much plausibility as they can within the overall implausibility.
This really bothered me, too -- it goes along with the complaints about the fact that the characters spent most of the season whining to each other about the same things over and over again. I have no idea what the characters were doing during the time they spent at the farm -- but it sure as heck wasn't preparing. But not just the farmhouse itself -- they should have been preparing the borders. How about digging trenches? Or building walls? Or something? I don't know whether it would have worked, but it sure would have made sense to try.


And, on the other side of things, apparently the reason that the Imperial Stormtroopers in Star Wars couldn't hit the side of a planet with their shooting was because all the people who could aim were transported to TWD. Every shot hits a zombie in the head?
   851. Something Other Posted: March 19, 2012 at 05:11 AM (#4084047)
Every shot hits a zombie in the head?
In the dark! While running! Under the as much pressure as you can ever be in! Trying to hit grapefruit sized targets jitterbugging towards you! And not hit your friends, who are also running around in the dark! While reloading!

Couldn't we at least gotten a little humor with our headshots? I'm thinking Carol picks up her first gun ever and bolts outside and collapses against a tree. A zombie spots her and lurches towards her, and she fires the first twelve rounds while pitching an hysterical fit without inflicting so much as a necrotic flesh wound. Then BOOM! Bullseye at the last second.

Speaking of preparation, frankly I blamed Shane as much as anyone for the fiasco around the campfire back near Atlanta. If nothing else, snag some roll fencing out of any Agway, ring your tents and campfire with it, and tie all your tin cans to it. It won't keep them out, but you'll hear them coming.

And, you drill for half an hour so that every knows how to jog to and board the RV while the five or six of you with guns form an every shrinking circle as everyone gets into the RV. But nooooo! Blame it all on Rick. Who, by the way, was rather more of a dictator than Shane. Rick would make up his mind to do something then go do it. Going back for Merle. Deciding once again to release Randall after everyone but Dale seemed willing to have him die.

So, what's your preferred defensive posture? Given how long it would have taken to build a real wall all the way around the farmhouse I think you'd be better off driving twenty big rigs back to the farm and dumping the containers in a big ring around it, with only one serious gate to build. And hey, once you sound the alarm, wouldn't sending Daryl off down the road blasting an air horn while everyone else killed the candles and shut themselves up in the house worked? How long do zombies remember that, hey, some food ran into that farmhouse?

SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER
Prison came first and then the Governor and then prison-Governor. Hard to have the Governor without the prison.
Really? It's been a while since I read the comics--are the two related? I would have thought since theoretically you don't need a prison at all, or a Governor for your ZA, one or both could be dispensed with. ---ohhhh. okay--is it that they settle into the prison, the Governor tries to take it over, he captures Rick, Rick loses his hand to the Governor, escapes back to the prison....or was it that they take refuge in the prison, the the Governor finds them, and there's the war between the groups?

I'll still be surprised if there's a prison setting at all in the show. Any rumors on a big set score? I suppose if you're going to spend a season there you might be able to afford to build one, but I think you'd end up green-screening most of it. (I was amazed to read that a ton of Friday Night Lights was greenscreened, that the background for most of rural Texas was in fact a 60 x 200 foor greenscreen. In any case I'd rather they spend at least half a season on the road in a variety of circumstances before settling in again.
   852. Something Other Posted: March 19, 2012 at 05:31 AM (#4084048)
I know I didn't think they would do the prison but I really can't see how they can go much past the Governor without seriously veering from the comics.
At the same time I hope they don't feel beholden to reprising anything from the comic-just because it was in the comic--if it won't work on tv. I suppose the walled community can work at some point, but it also meant going about five issues in the comic iirc with barely a zombie sighting. Given how well the tv show does zombie set pieces and how uneven the writing is, a walled community might be a mistake. They'd have to juice it with some reason to regularly go off the reservation, otherwise the show'll get stale, fast.

What did come after the Governor? Wasn't the prison destroyed, and weren't Lori and the baby killed? I can see that working by season 4. I don't think Lori's an absolutely essential character. At the same time, pining and talking to your dead wife on the phone works better in a graphic novel than it will on television.
   853. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: March 19, 2012 at 05:56 AM (#4084052)
And, on the other side of things, apparently the reason that the Imperial Stormtroopers in Star Wars couldn't hit the side of a planet with their shooting was because all the people who could aim were transported to TWD. Every shot hits a zombie in the head?

That's standard movie hero bonus. Hell, apparently even the Ewoks can shoot better than Stormtroopers. My favourite example of this is in Starship Troopers though. At the start of the movie it takes about 30 Soldiers 30 seconds of constant fire to kill a single bug from about 10 feet away. At the end the 4 heroes are gunning down dozens of bugs every second...
   854. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4084075)
Andrea not being able to outrun the horde was inexplicable

You know, as someone who was actually questioning the speed of the humans vs. zombies earlier, I'll allow this. Given a horde that was rather large, coming from multiple directions, and no needing to rest, someone carrying all kinds of metal for hours on end would certainly get pretty tired.
   855. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: March 19, 2012 at 09:27 AM (#4084083)
Season 6 finale really bites. Half way through the season, when they had the mid season finale, that was pretty decent, but probably should have been drawn out even more. There really was enough that they could have made that one episode at least a true two parter if not a three parter(although they are really avoiding explaining who/what the silence and the rest of the army against him, are)


I'll go further and say the entire second half of season 6 really bites. Let's Kill Hitler was a fun romp. The rest was garbage. When it became available on Netflix instant, all I went back to watch was LKH and the finale. I will say this for season 6 though, I think the Silence (the creatures, not the order) are probably the coolest aliens ever introduced in a Sci-Fi genre.
   856. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4084087)
You know, as someone who was actually questioning the speed of the humans vs. zombies earlier, I'll allow this. Given a horde that was rather large, coming from multiple directions, and no needing to rest, someone carrying all kinds of metal for hours on end would certainly get pretty tired.
That she'd get tired and they'd catch up, seems plausible. That they kept up with her before that does not. (Nor does the fact that zombies can run through the woods without tripping on roots and things.)
   857. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 09:53 AM (#4084097)
What did fans think of Constantine?


Flawed but stylish and entertaining. Kind of a guilty pleasure. To enjoy it, you have to get past the fact that it has virtually nothing to do with the source material, of course.

The one that really disappointed me was the Dylan Dog movie. I wasn't expecting much after I saw the trailer, but boy, was that ever awful. Which is a shame, because you could've probably made a dozen interesting art-house films that were true to the experimental tone of Scliavi's work, but they just had to try for a summer blockbuster...
   858. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4084114)
(Just to be clear: When I ##### about the Dylan Dog movie, it's the one that came out last year, not Dellamorte Dellamore, AKA Cemetery Man, which is awesome.)
   859. Something Other Posted: March 19, 2012 at 10:33 AM (#4084134)
@858: Your rec caused me to check out the trailer at imdb. Definitely worth a look (though NSFW).

Andrea not being able to outrun the horde was inexplicable

You know, as someone who was actually questioning the speed of the humans vs. zombies earlier, I'll allow this. Given a horde that was rather large, coming from multiple directions, and no needing to rest, someone carrying all kinds of metal for hours on end would certainly get pretty tired.

Agreed. What I keep coming back to is, not how fast should zombies run, or would they catch up with Andrea but, in order to make an interesting and suspenseful tv series, what properties do zombies need to have? At what speed and with what agility do they need to run in order to create plausible fiction? What they probably need to be able to do is run not quite as fast as a human (since they don't need to rest, they need to be slower, else it'd be over already), but also not trip or stumble often. Their floppy stagger is probably pretty well suited to forest jogging, or we need to allow for the possibility. Or we just have to pretend it is. In the scene where they catch up with the extremely attractive Laurie Holden (who is very unusual looking in the good way) it does look to me like walkers are indeed coming at her from somewhat different directions, which covers one objection to their pace and abilities.

I still have no idea why people in blogs and other sites get so incredibly hung up on plausibility. It's a zombie apocalypse. No doubt it would be exciting for a while, but it really can't happen.

That said, there was a sour tone to the end of the season I didn't like. C'mon, gang! Where was that hearty, we're all (well, what's left of us) in this together feeling? And not even troubling to leave Andrea a note just in case? Carl whining at his dad? And was Rick really on the verge of heading off with Hershel and Carl without Lori? I mean, I'd sympathize if he did, given Lori's behavior, but no real human being is going to act like that, at least not in the presence of his friend and his son. Not aloud, anyway.
   860. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4084161)
I still have no idea why people in blogs and other sites get so incredibly hung up on plausibility. It's a zombie apocalypse. No doubt it would be exciting for a while, but it really can't happen.
It doesn't matter if it's Martian ninja monkeys; it still needs to be done right. It's okay if the initial premise is implausible, but the execution of the premise must be internally consistent, or you're watching a bad cartoon, not a serious drama.

It's perfectly fine to work backwards, in general -- that is, to start by asking, as you suggest, "in order to make an interesting and suspenseful tv series, what properties do zombies need to have? At what speed and with what agility do they need to run in order to create plausible fiction?" But once you pick that, you have to stick with it. They can't run fast one episode and slow the next, can't be able to leap buildings in a single bound one day and the next be unable to get through an open door (*), etc.


(*) Speaking of which, how come the barn was able to hold in all of those zombies that the farm people had captured, so well that none of the gang even knew that the barn contained zombies -- but then when Rick and Carl ran to the barn to escape yesterday, the zombies were tearing through the door in a few seconds?

That said, there was a sour tone to the end of the season I didn't like. C'mon, gang! Where was that hearty, we're all (well, what's left of us) in this together feeling? And not even troubling to leave Andrea a note just in case? Carl whining at his dad? And was Rick really on the verge of heading off with Hershel and Carl without Lori? I mean, I'd sympathize if he did, given Lori's behavior, but no real human being is going to act like that, at least not in the presence of his friend and his son. Not aloud, anyway.
The inconsistency and illogicality of the zombie behavior pales in comparison to the inconsistency and illogicality of the human behavior. Nothing these people do makes any sense.
   861. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 11:20 AM (#4084206)
This really bothered me, too -- it goes along with the complaints about the fact that the characters spent most of the season whining to each other about the same things over and over again. I have no idea what the characters were doing during the time they spent at the farm -- but it sure as heck wasn't preparing. But not just the farmhouse itself -- they should have been preparing the borders. How about digging trenches? Or building walls? Or something? I don't know whether it would have worked, but it sure would have made sense to try.

In a way I can understand their lack of preparation on the farm. In a lot of ways they viewed it as their heaven from all that hell. They allowed themselves to be lulled into thinking the farm was safe. Remember by the time the horde comes they had been there for months and only had to deal with the occasional walker and Hershel had been their even longer and barely had to deal with anything. Plus if Shane hadn't have tried to kill Rick the horde would have passed right on by.

You know, as someone who was actually questioning the speed of the humans vs. zombies earlier, I'll allow this. Given a horde that was rather large, coming from multiple directions, and no needing to rest, someone carrying all kinds of metal for hours on end would certainly get pretty tired.

The issue I have with it is that every time they cut to Andrea the Walkers were to 10 feet away no matter how fast she moved. It was standard zombie movie stereotypes with Andrea.
   862. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 11:30 AM (#4084216)
Speaking of which, how come the barn was able to hold in all of those zombies that the farm people had captured, so well that none of the gang even knew that the barn contained zombies -- but then when Rick and Carl ran to the barn to escape yesterday, the zombies were tearing through the door in a few seconds?


Zombies really, really like being inside barns?
   863. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4084219)
SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER

Prison came first and then the Governor and then prison-Governor. Hard to have the Governor without the prison.

Really? It's been a while since I read the comics--are the two related? I would have thought since theoretically you don't need a prison at all, or a Governor for your ZA, one or both could be dispensed with. ---ohhhh. okay--is it that they settle into the prison, the Governor tries to take it over, he captures Rick, Rick loses his hand to the Governor, escapes back to the prison....or was it that they take refuge in the prison, the the Governor finds them, and there's the war between the groups?


SPOILERSPOILERSPOILER.

In the comic book Rick decides that the farm isn't really safe long term for them. On one of their scouting trips they find the prison and decide to move their. Herschel and his family stay behind except for Maggie who comes along. They clear the prison of zombies and find four inmates barricaded into the cafeteria. The four join the group and have adventures and missteps along the way. Stuff happens, they lose some people, gain some people (Michonne and Herschel and his family), and ruminate on life for awhile. The horde never overruns the farm in the comic book.


Then if I remember correctly the group sees a helicopter go down. Rick and I think just Michonne go to investigate. They encounter the Governor who acts friendly to them and brings them back to his town. He then takes them prisoner and wants to know the location of their base. They don't tell him so he cuts off Rick's hand and routinely beats and rapes Michonne. Rick with the help of a doctor and his assistant make their escape. They free Michonne who systematically tortures the Governor and leaving him for dead before they leave. The doctor is killed on the way to escaping. They make it back and heal. They then head out for the Governor's arsenal and supply area depot. They take what they can and destroy the rest bracing for a reprisal but it doesn't come. Months later just as they think they might have a good life at the prison the Governor shows up with his army that has brought a tank with them. Much of the inhabitants are gunned down in the ensuing fight including Lorie and the baby. Rick and Carl make it and so does Michonne who was sent out on a commando raid with Tyreese but were taken and Tyreese was killed. Glen, Maggie, and Andrea make it while Hershel and the remaining prisoners are killed as well.

Now then if I am remembering correctly Rick and Carl get split up from the rest of the group while fleeing and a bunch of comic books are about Rick and Carl surviving alone out in the wilderness while Rick cracks up. I forget how they all meet up again but they do and the meet the "scientist" and his army redneck buddy who convinces them to go to DC.
   864. Shredder Posted: March 19, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4084226)
Speaking of which, how come the barn was able to hold in all of those zombies that the farm people had captured, so well that none of the gang even knew that the barn contained zombies -- but then when Rick and Carl ran to the barn to escape yesterday, the zombies were tearing through the door in a few seconds?
They seemed a bit more motivated. And there were more of them.

One of my problems with the show is that I read the Videogum recaps the next day, which are hilarious, and totally poke holes in many of the plot points. In fact, the Videogum recaps are probably the only reason I still watch the show. Also, there's a lot of little dumb things that seem to contradict any sense of rationality. Take last night, when Rick explained that they were low on ammunition. Hey, maybe you shouldn't have spent an episode wasting thousands of bullets on target training. Of course, since it turned everyone into next seasons' contestants on "Top Shot", apparently it was worth it. And if everyone automatically becomes a zombie when they die, why were there all of those non-zombie dead people in cars when they first came upon the road block?

And with regard to last night's episode 1) why did Rick keep what he learned at the CDC a secret?, and 2) why did everyone care? It's not it would have changed everyone's strategy. I can see everyone being upset about not being told the truth, but ultimately it doesn't change anything. And I still don't understand the secrecy behind that bit of information. And considering that everyone we've seen get attacked ends up being skeletonized by the piranha-zombies, it's pretty clear that there aren't very many "bites". They aren't vampires that leave a small mark on the neck. They completely strip the flesh from everthing they come into contact with, except that one cow (apparently that zombie was full about half way through).
   865. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4084232)
That said, there was a sour tone to the end of the season I didn't like. C'mon, gang! Where was that hearty, we're all (well, what's left of us) in this together feeling? And not even troubling to leave Andrea a note just in case? Carl whining at his dad? And was Rick really on the verge of heading off with Hershel and Carl without Lori? I mean, I'd sympathize if he did, given Lori's behavior, but no real human being is going to act like that, at least not in the presence of his friend and his son. Not aloud, anyway.

I think you have to remember that these people are no longer living in a rational world and that they all have been put through hell for a long time especially Rick. Rick just killed Shane the night before and then the farm got overrun by hundreds if not thousands of walkers. They've all witnessed the destruction of the human population and society to these walkers. Rick had every reason in his current state to think that everyone else on the farm was dead. Yet he still had some hope left in him which made his decision extremely difficult to make.

I think what the writers were trying to do with that highway scene to the end of the episode was to really show the transition of Rick and the group. Like he said at the end it wasn't going to be a democracy. The group was not going to behave like it is still normal USA and they are on a reality show. I mean even at the firepit at the end we saw the reality show crap try to pop up and that was when Rick clamped down and told them how it was going to be. Rick is hardening so that he can survive in this new world and that hardening, for better or for worse, is a major theme in the comic books.

As for Lori I don't really accept the shock to Shane's death. I think that was poor writing. Just a couple of episodes before she was whispering into Rick's ear that Shane was going to try and kill him and that Rick needed to get rid of Shane.
   866. zonk Posted: March 19, 2012 at 11:52 AM (#4084245)
Having never read the comic/GN...

So, was that Ninja thing that 'saved' Andrea "death"/symbolism or some sort or a real thing?

I thought the finale was excellent - although, Lori (project much, honey?) has replaced Carl as my least favorite character and Daryl has now replaced Rick as my favorite.

Rick has a peculiar sense of what to lie about, what to keep secret, and when to reveal secrets. I don't think he could make worse choices if he tried.
   867. Lassus Posted: March 19, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4084254)
I gotta tell ya, Jeremiah's sparsely-populated post-apocalypse made a lot more sense.
   868. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4084257)

So, was that Ninja thing that 'saved' Andrea "death"/symbolism or some sort or a real thing?



Spoilerspoiler
That was Michonne! In the comics her introduction is different since the farm isn't overrun but they basically nailed the image of her. The two zombies she has chained up is her boyfriend and his friend. She hacked off their limbs and I think their jaws and uses them to blend in with the zombies.
   869. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:03 PM (#4084260)
And with regard to last night's episode 1) why did Rick keep what he learned at the CDC a secret?, and 2) why did everyone care?
No, those aren't the right questions. The right question is, if he learned it at the CDC, how come his own personal actions didn't reflect that knowledge?

I think caring is actually pretty understandable. It doesn't change "strategy" too much, perhaps, not in the short term -- but it changes one's whole worldview. One can't escape zombification merely by evading the zombies; one can't end the apocalypse even if one manages to kill every zombie out there.
   870. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:04 PM (#4084263)
I thought the finale was excellent - although, Lori (project much, honey?) has replaced Carl as my least favorite character
I can't tell how much is the writing/filming, and how much is the actress. The best thing she ever did on Prison Break was get her head chopped off. Though it didn't take.
   871. zonk Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4084274)
I think you have to remember that these people are no longer living in a rational world and that they all have been put through hell for a long time especially Rick. Rick just killed Shane the night before and then the farm got overrun by hundreds if not thousands of walkers. They've all witnessed the destruction of the human population and society to these walkers. Rick had every reason in his current state to think that everyone else on the farm was dead. Yet he still had some hope left in him which made his decision extremely difficult to make.

I think what the writers were trying to do with that highway scene to the end of the episode was to really show the transition of Rick and the group. Like he said at the end it wasn't going to be a democracy. The group was not going to behave like it is still normal USA and they are on a reality show. I mean even at the firepit at the end we saw the reality show crap try to pop up and that was when Rick clamped down and told them how it was going to be. Rick is hardening so that he can survive in this new world and that hardening, for better or for worse, is a major theme in the comic books.

As for Lori I don't really accept the shock to Shane's death. I think that was poor writing. Just a couple of episodes before she was whispering into Rick's ear that Shane was going to try and kill him and that Rick needed to get rid of Shane.


I suppose... but I would argue that they are living in a rational world, just one with a different orientation. It's not like the zombies can materialize, fly, or teleport.

Maybe this just speaks to the complaints people have raised about the characters, but I don't understand why one has to be "all Shane" or "all Dale"... Self-preservation doesn't mean sociopathy, while maintaining some manner of respect for human life doesn't mean being soft.

   872. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:16 PM (#4084277)
Okay, here's something I don't understand about "everyone's infected" (*): why are zombie bites fatal, then? (I mean, apart from when one is torn limb from limb.) They've been treating the situation as if a single scratch or bite from a zombie is enough to doom a person -- but if the person's already infected, what difference does the extra bite/scratch/etc. make?



(*) Which, not being a graphic novel reader nor a spoiler reader, I did not realize.
   873. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:25 PM (#4084292)
I suppose... but I would argue that they are living in a rational world, just one with a different orientation. It's not like the zombies can materialize, fly, or teleport.

Maybe this just speaks to the complaints people have raised about the characters, but I don't understand why one has to be "all Shane" or "all Dale"... Self-preservation doesn't mean sociopathy, while maintaining some manner of respect for human life doesn't mean being soft.


But the world they are living in is a new world to them and does not act in the manner they are used to. None of them, including Rick and Shane, had to deal with the possibility of death being just around the corner every minute of their life. Think about soldiers in combat. AT some point without a break all soldiers will eventually crack up. You just can't take it anymore.

Which then leads me to my next point is that you have to remember this is a show and that each character is meant to represent, symbolize, or showcase something. You could say Daryl is the lost boy in this new world looking for his place. Shane is the animal side of man or the side of man that cracks up. Rick is the father figure that must stoically look the storm in the eye and get his people through. Dale was the conscious, Glen the survivor so on and so on. So from that perspective you can't really expect the characters to do a reality TV show. You have to remember that at all times the writers are trying to tell you something about humanity and that what is happening on screen or on the page is a metaphor.
   874. zonk Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4084298)
No, those aren't the right questions. The right question is, if he learned it at the CDC, how come his own personal actions didn't reflect that knowledge?

I think caring is actually pretty understandable. It doesn't change "strategy" too much, perhaps, not in the short term -- but it changes one's whole worldview. One can't escape zombification merely by evading the zombies; one can't end the apocalypse even if one manages to kill every zombie out there.


This is true... though, IIRC, he sorta, kinda tries to explain that at the campfire ("wasn't sure...").

Still - the point of no return on spilling that little secret was long ago, and I don't think there was anything to be gained by Rick informing the group of his little CDC secret. They had the regenerated Randall - and since Rick decided to come clean on Shane, he probably should have just come clean in a more convenient way. If it's time to let everyone in the secret for some unknown reason, there's no point in also providing the CDC confirmation... especially if Rick's aim is now to become the benevolent dictator of the group.

He should have just told them Shane clearly intended to kill him -- Daryl/Glenn had already had pretty solid evidence that he had murdered Randall, not to mention the fact that Shane killed Otis seems to be all but common knowledge. If, by this point, Rick isn't secure enough in the group (especially now sans Andrea) believing that Shane was out to murder him and killing him was a pure case of "him or me", then he needs to reassess whether he should be the leader of the group. Herschel obviously backs Rick. Daryl seems pretty clearly to do so as well. Andrea's not around to say otherwise. Glenn - if not for the CDC nonsense - would have. Lori should have. Maggie would have (also sans CDC).

So he presents a better told, but still wholly based in fact version of killing Shane. Add that to the tale of Randall already told by Glenn/Daryl -- voila.... you've got pretty clear confirmation that if you die, you regenerate. At minimum, you have enough evidence that the group ought to pretty much assume it and make it a part of SOP going forward.

Toss the Jenner confirmation down the memory hole and you're still 'honorable Rick', the truth is more or less on the table regarding everything up to that point --- and you're in a much better position to being the undemocratic leader.
   875. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4084301)
Okay, here's something I don't understand about "everyone's infected" (*): why are zombie bites fatal, then? (I mean, apart from when one is torn limb from limb.) They've been treating the situation as if a single scratch or bite from a zombie is enough to doom a person -- but if the person's already infected, what difference does the extra bite/scratch/etc. make?



(*) Which, not being a graphic novel reader nor a spoiler reader, I did not realize.


The comic book hasn't gone into the science of this at all and actually the show has looked more into than the book since the comic never had a CDC chapter. The show made that up as their season one finale. My guess is that a bite is some sort of catalyst. The second trigger to bring back a conversation we had a few hundred posts back. The bite could be a second poison that once it mingles with the poison already in your body converts to a new compound that kills you. Or it could simply be that a zombie saliva is just poisonous all by itself and it kills you. The bite itself might have nothing to do with turning you into a zombie and in fact it appears it doesn't have anything to do with you turning besides the fact that zombie saliva is lethal.
   876. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:34 PM (#4084303)
So he presents a better told, but still wholly based in fact version of killing Shane.

Try formulating a better story on the fly while having not slept in over a day, killing your former best friend, lived through an apocalypse, just lived through a horde attack that killed several people you knew, and have the burden of command. I think we should expect these people to not be perfect and to make mistakes. Especially on the fly and about things like killing fellow humans and what to tell people and what not to tell people. Hell, even in our own real world we constantly tell people things we shouldn't tell them. I don't think we can expect Rick to make all the right moves.
   877. zonk Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4084306)

But the world they are living in is a new world to them and does not act in the manner they are used to. None of them, including Rick and Shane, had to deal with the possibility of death being just around the corner every minute of their life. Think about soldiers in combat. AT some point without a break all soldiers will eventually crack up. You just can't take it anymore.

Which then leads me to my next point is that you have to remember this is a show and that each character is meant to represent, symbolize, or showcase something. You could say Daryl is the lost boy in this new world looking for his place. Shane is the animal side of man or the side of man that cracks up. Rick is the father figure that must stoically look the storm in the eye and get his people through. Dale was the conscious, Glen the survivor so on and so on. So from that perspective you can't really expect the characters to do a reality TV show. You have to remember that at all times the writers are trying to tell you something about humanity and that what is happening on screen or on the page is a metaphor.


Sure, I get that... but survival is survival.

Not to go all BSG Admiral Cain here, but when all else fails, return to your primary objective -- survival. Glenn is the only character who really makes sense to me - perhaps that's because I, without a family or kids, see this primarily through his eyes from a purely survivalist standpoint... but Glenn the survivor hasn't gone sociopathic Shane, either. Obviously, he's the one who saves Rick in the beginning, even though it technically makes getting back out of Atlanta harder on him. He returns back to Atlanta for Merle with Rick and company.

He freezes up due to his developing relationship with Maggie during the saloon shoot-out, I guess... but in that same situation, I think the desire not to return to the farm without Maggie's dad would have trumped my fear of not returning at all.
   878. Shredder Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:38 PM (#4084307)
why are zombie bites fatal, then?
I haven't read the comics, but I would suppose for the same reason that kimodo dragon bites are often fatal: Bacteria. Or perhaps something about the bite activates the virus. You can be a carrier without having the full-blown disease, but perhaps something about the bite accelerates the process.
The right question is, if he learned it at the CDC, how come his own personal actions didn't reflect that knowledge?
Which is kind of another problem with the way the show is written. Why wouldn't he have just told Shane when they saw the zombie-cops, who they noticed hadn't been bitten?
but it changes one's whole worldview. One can't escape zombification merely by evading the zombies; one can't end the apocalypse even if one manages to kill every zombie out there.
This I kind of disagree with. It would simply change the way we handle corpses. Instead of a funeral and a viewing a few days out, everyone either gets cremated or beheaded immediately after death. Obviously, on a grand scale that's a pretty big change, but it shouldn't really change the way our band of survivors approaches things. Plus, if it's a virus that we all carry, there's always a hope that if they get the zombie horde under control, at least in an area like the U.S., further research could lead to a cure or a vaccine. It's not like there's a dearth of test subjects.
   879. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:48 PM (#4084318)
Try formulating a better story on the fly while having not slept in over a day, killing your former best friend, lived through an apocalypse, just lived through a horde attack that killed several people you knew, and have the burden of command. I think we should expect these people to not be perfect and to make mistakes. Especially on the fly and about things like killing fellow humans and what to tell people and what not to tell people. Hell, even in our own real world we constantly tell people things we shouldn't tell them. I don't think we can expect Rick to make all the right moves.
All the right moves? No. But how about "It was self-defense"? A nice simple story that happens to be true. Instead of ranting in a way that makes it look like it wasn't self-defense at all.
   880. zonk Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4084319)
Try formulating a better story on the fly while having not slept in over a day, killing your former best friend, lived through an apocalypse, just lived through a horde attack that killed several people you knew, and have the burden of command. I think we should expect these people to not be perfect and to make mistakes. Especially on the fly and about things like killing fellow humans and what to tell people and what not to tell people. Hell, even in our own real world we constantly tell people things we shouldn't tell them. I don't think we can expect Rick to make all the right moves.


Less is more.

Daryl had already told the group about Randall's broken neck and regeneration, so unprompted, he's already corroborating evidence to the "shane was trying to ambush me" on the table. Presumably - he's also got Shane's gun that the whole group had heard Shane say Randall "took" from him.

Presumably, he's already had the wrestling match with his conscience when it came time to gut Shane.

Especially if he's decided he's the leader, then he needs to act like it. If he wants to be 'mostly honest' with the group, great - so much the better. Then some things need to become need to know.

He can't be publicly wrestling with decisions -- bad leaders are more often bad leaders because they make no decisions, not because they make bad decisions... and if Rick keeps having these sort of internal discussions publicly in the group, he might as well be making no decision because that's how it comes across. If he wants to consult the group, then consult the group - but he shouldn't be joining into the consultation sessions.
   881. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4084320)
Not to go all BSG Admiral Cain here, but when all else fails, return to your primary objective -- survival.

I understand that is your viewpoint but I think you just have to accept that not every survivor is going to immediately enter into that mode especially in fictional portrayals. You'll have people like Dale who want to hold on to some sort of semblance of the old world. You'll have people like Rick who like Dale will hold onto the old world and believe that people should act honorably so on and so on. Then you'll just have people who simply cannot transform into what they need to be in this new world and they check out through various means.
   882. Mike A Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4084321)
As for Lori I don't really accept the shock to Shane's death. I think that was poor writing. Just a couple of episodes before she was whispering into Rick's ear that Shane was going to try and kill him and that Rick needed to get rid of Shane.

Maybe...deep down...she didn't want Rick to be the one to win.

OK, probably not. But it was kinda clear she did still have feelings for Shane despite all the mess.

Ah, analysis, schmanalysis. MICHONNE!!!!!
   883. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4084322)
All the right moves? No. But how about "It was self-defense"? A nice simple story that happens to be true. Instead of ranting in a way that makes it look like it wasn't self-defense at all.

He did say it was self-defense but I don't think you can expect a person to not rant in that situation. He feels guilty. We know he feels guilty because he told Lori that he knew what was happening but he let it happen anyway because he wanted Shane gone. It was a stressful moment in his life and I don't think you can expect him to give the perfect answer or anything close to it.

He can't be publicly wrestling with decisions

Correct. Rick made a mistake and I'm arguing that that is what we should expect from a real human being put into that situation at that moment. Yes if this was a Clint Eastwood movie or Arnold movie they would say or do the perfect thing at that moment but I don't think that would be acceptable or realistic scene based on what the shows seems to be going for.

Plus you have to remember that this is a show. People talk out loud what they are feeling so we the audience can know what they are thinking. If it was a book the author would simply tell us what was going on in all of their minds but since it is not they have to telegraph it more blatantly.
   884. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: March 19, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4084361)
but it changes one's whole worldview. One can't escape zombification merely by evading the zombies; one can't end the apocalypse even if one manages to kill every zombie out there.

This I kind of disagree with. It would simply change the way we handle corpses. Instead of a funeral and a viewing a few days out, everyone either gets cremated or beheaded immediately after death.
Even after stabilization, this strikes me as a naively rosy view of how differently people would view and approach the world. And from what I understand about TWD, the survivors are nowhere near anything that could be called a stable equilibrium with the walkers.
   885. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4084386)
Even after stabilization, this strikes me as a naively rosy view of how differently people would view and approach the world. And from what I understand about TWD, the survivors are nowhere near anything that could be called a stable equilibrium with the walkers.

I think there would be a lot of preemptive killings in the new world once humanity had turned the corner and started to rebuild. I don't think you'd see a lot of old people in the new world and the sickly wouldn't last too long either. I'd think you'd get things like "leper colonies" again where the old and infirmed either sneak off to or get sent to. You might even have some sort of feudal system arise where people are tied to the land and strangers walking alone out in the wilderness is not welcomed or tolerated.
   886. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4084398)
I think there would be a lot of preemptive killings in the new world once humanity had turned the corner and started to rebuild. I don't think you'd see a lot of old people in the new world and the sickly wouldn't last too long either. I'd think you'd get things like "leper colonies" again where the old and infirmed either sneak off to or get sent to. You might even have some sort of feudal system arise where people are tied to the land and strangers walking alone out in the wilderness is not welcomed or tolerated.
Yes. Think about hospitals generally. (Especially emergency rooms. Or operating rooms.) Or first responders. There's been a car accident -- do you treat the wounded? Or just dispatch them with a shot to the head as you arrive on scene?

Every death is not merely a gruesome scene for rubbernecking, but a mortal threat to bystanders. A guy falls down while walking down the sidewalk. Did he faint, and just needs water? Or did he have a fatal heart attack? A person gets pneumonia. Someone is shot robbing a liquor store. That homeless guy lying on the grate? Sleeping? Or dying?
   887. JPWF1313 Posted: March 19, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4084409)
Okay, here's something I don't understand about "everyone's infected" (*): why are zombie bites fatal, then?


There are infectious agents that manifest quite differently depending upon how they are delivered- on the skin, inhale or in the blood...

My guess is that if the show's creators bother to think and come up with a reasonable response to this query, is that a bite/scratch/physical trauma will act as some type of catalyst as someone above mentioned.

Perhaps:

Zombification is inherent in our genome- something in the environment has triggered it, now when you die you turn unto a zombie.

Zombies produce some type of protein/prion after they have become walkers, if you get bit the zombification process starts right then and there, death no longer proceeds the process, but rather the process causes death along the way...
   888. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4084413)
It is not clear yet and appears unlikely that a zombie scratch will turn you in The Walking Dead.
   889. Shredder Posted: March 19, 2012 at 01:53 PM (#4084418)
There's been a car accident -- do you treat the wounded? Or just dispatch them with a shot to the head as you arrive on scene?
Why would you kill them on-site if they weren't already dead? Once you're at the scene, it's a controlled environment. If the patient dies en-route, you get the job done at that time, but presumably patients in large car accident are monitored while in an ambulance. There's no reason to kill someone in that situation before they're dead. Hell, even Shane took a few minutes to zombify, or at least become a legitimate threat.

Presumably we'd see a lot more euthanasia of old people. Dying in one's sleep would be a lot bigger problem than car accidents. Maybe the invention of strap in beds for the elderly. Also, the second amendment would be rendered completely irrelevant.
   890. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: March 19, 2012 at 01:57 PM (#4084421)
@885 and 886: yes, those were exactly the kinds of things that sprang to mind. Hospitals in particular.

War would be more interesting, too.
   891. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4084435)
Why would you kill them on-site if they weren't already dead?
Because they're wounded and could die at any moment, and then turn right around and kill you?

A couple of cars ram into each other. In one car, parents in the front seat, two kids in the back; in the other car, a driver and a passenger. None of them are conscious after the accident. Maybe some bleeding going on. Any of these people could die while you're checking another one out. If one dies, he or she is an immediate threat to everyone else in his or her car, plus to the first responder. Worse, what if one of them, in shock, stumbles out of his car? Is he about to die? Then he's a threat to bystanders, too.
   892. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: March 19, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4084441)
And how about what I have to assume are the (at least) few dozen people each year who die in the middle of a flight?

And thinking about nursing homes, they'd pretty much have to be run like maximum security, all-solitary, wouldn't they?
   893. zonk Posted: March 19, 2012 at 02:22 PM (#4084442)
Because they're wounded and could die at any moment, and then turn right around and kill you?

A couple of cars ram into each other. In one car, parents in the front seat, two kids in the back; in the other car, a driver and a passenger. None of them are conscious after the accident. Maybe some bleeding going on. Any of these people could die while you're checking another one out. If one dies, he or she is an immediate threat to everyone else in his or her car, plus to the first responder. Worse, what if one of them, in shock, stumbles out of his car? Is he about to die? Then he's a threat to bystanders, too.


Near-term, of course, people are still running from zombies...

But long-term - assuming society ever gets back to a place where we have things like ambulances, traffic, etc - seems to me that you solve this technologically... if it's the brain-stem or whatever that 'powers' the zombies, everyone gets a little "inverse defibrillator" implanted. If you're heart stops for whatever the (presumably, scientifically measurable) amount of time is -- a small charge destroys the brain stem.

   894. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 02:27 PM (#4084447)
Why would you kill them on-site if they weren't already dead?

Because we are very intolerant of life-threatening events. I think events where death is a possibility would be a lot more controlled than they are nowadays. I just read a story where a guy found a hand grenade on his front lawn so he brought it to a police station. He leaves it on his car in the police parking lot as he heads towards the station. He informs the police he has the grenade and would like to dispose of it. The police evacuate the police station, the surrounding buildings, and call in the bomb squad. We just don't play around in dangerous situations. I think all first responders would be accompanied by at least one armed guard and they would have orders to shoot to kill in a lot of situations first responders would find themselves in. I think we'll still need and have first responders because society will want people to call for help but their role will change drastically.
   895. Shredder Posted: March 19, 2012 at 02:36 PM (#4084454)
Because they're wounded and could die at any moment, and then turn right around and kill you?
This still doesn't answer the question. You have paramedics on the scene, monitoring the wounded. You don't go from dead to reanimated in a split second. It was shown at the CDC, and with Shane, that it takes a few minutes to do from freshly dead to a flesh eating zombie. It's not that hard to take a pulse. That's not to say that random citizens wouldn't take matters into their own hands before authorities arrived, but I doubt that killing a living person at an accident scene would become policy unless it was somehow shown that near term death was inevitable. You've got to remember that everyone is already much more vigilant in that situation. And likely armed.
   896. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: March 19, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4084463)
It's not that hard to take a pulse.
It is if you have to worry about both the person whose pulse you're taking, and that of two or three other people in the car, ripping your throat out. You rush over to the driver, check his pulse. He has one, but it's weak. Now what do you do about the person in the passenger seat, who isn't moving? Unconscious, or dead? You go check on that person's pulse, very carefully. Meanwhile, the driver slumps over -- did he just pass out, or die? And while you're worrying about that, did the passenger die several minutes ago or just now?

The fact that you're armed doesn't help you, unless/until you actually use the gun; zombies can't be deterred.
   897. McCoy Posted: March 19, 2012 at 02:58 PM (#4084475)
Snapper, I think you are looking at it from a more one on one controlled environment which isn't really the environment a first responders would find themselves in. Even nowadays the scene is much more chaotic than that in a lot of situations.
   898. zonk Posted: March 19, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4084477)
I'm telling you, if society recovers to a point of having first responders again - we're all getting tiny charges implanted near the brain stem upon birth.
   899. Shredder Posted: March 19, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4084484)
It is if you have to worry about both the person whose pulse you're taking, and that of two or three other people in the car, ripping your throat out.
Right, because when paramedics respond to a major auto accident, it's usually just one dude.
   900. Benji Gil Gamesh Rises Posted: March 19, 2012 at 10:00 PM (#4084790)
I'm telling you, if society recovers to a point of having first responders again - we're all getting tiny charges implanted near the brain stem upon birth.
...because in a society where those charges are technologically possible and that widespread, there's no way anyone could ever figure out how to transmit some kind of signal (or block a signal) that would detonate them at will?
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