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1. The importance of being Ernest Riles Posted: May 09, 2008 at 01:38 PM (#2774471)(emphasis added)
I don't have a problem with Chamberlain' fist pumps, but every day Brian Bruney's statement looks dumber and dumber.
Fist pump.
Fist pump.
America, #### Yeah Fist Pump.
Reverse Fist Pump.
Rival Fist Pump.
Triple Fist Pump.
heheh. Yeah every day his statement looks dumber ... to you, the only person on the planet re-examining some postgame comments made by a random middle reliever over a year ago.
Yes, that's right. I remember stuff that happened and that was said in games in which my favorite team participated. I remember these things from last week, last year, and perhaps many years before that. It's called being a hopelessly addicted fan. Perhaps folks around here are familiar with that concept.
i remember a ton of random crap about baseball too
Did Eckersley point at the batter? I believe Eckersley pointed, and if that is the case, it is over the top. I he didn't point, the only offensive thing on Eckersley was his head of hair.
Eck did a lot of pointing and pumping and screaming. I don't remember if it was targeted at the batter or not. Could've been. I can see other players and fans being annoyed by it, although I don't remember stories about it. K-Rod has taken it to a whole new level, although he waits until the game is over before commencing his squatting-screaming routine. He just looks constipated.
I think Lowe said the direction of the crotch thrust was purely coincidental. But Tejada and some other A's took offense. Whats worse, it was a moved stolen from the WWF, and not even a move stolen from a good wrestler.
I have said this a couple times. You can read whatever you want into it. Pointing or motioning at a player is over the top. Even Krod with his wacky dance moves doesn't point at a player. (not that I have seen, I have obviously seen more Yankees and Sox games, because of the nonstop Yankees and Sox coverage)
Does this mean Joe Borowski is going to have to tone down his celebratory "blown save" dance?
Who was the originator of the crotch chop? Was it being done before X-Pac showed up in WWF? If it was, then I disagree.
Of course the WWE has a sexist issue. Apparently Randy Orton shat in a female wrestler's gym bag once, and as usual they did nothing about it.
Not a lot of posts bother me, but this one sure does. 8-)
I can agree with this completely. A guy hopping and stuff as he runs the bases after a big HR, or a pitcher getting excited after closing out a big inning is great I think. Too many no emotion guys now.
Jumping around like you won the WS in a nothing game, with a 3 run lead, in the 8th is something else though I think. That said, I'm not in Joba's head, maybe he was worried he had lost it or something.
Maybe I phrased it wrong. I meant that if they were doing the crotch chop before X-Pac came to WWF, then I disagreed with you saying Lowe took it from a bad wrestler. (Or, I think HBK and HHH are good wrestlers, but X-Pac I didn't care for). But I don't remember who was doing it first.
#2: I have no problem with Joba fist-pumping there. Personal vindication is personal vindication, whether it's in May or October. He struck out the guy who beat him two days ago. Any competitor would be emotional about that.
#3: I don't mind the fist-pumping, it's the apparent accompanying hooting and hollering that bothers me. I can't explain why I feel this way, but a guy can jump up and down, pump his fist, and do the cha-cha and I find it a reasonable celebration of personal success, but if the guy is obviously screaming and yelling (like Joba seems to, and like Sabathia did against the Yankees, and like Papelbon and K-Rod often seem to), then it really bothers me. There's something about the vocal element that I find unnecessarily calls attention to the person celebrating, as though you are calling out for others to watch you celebrate.
#4: Fist-pumping is joyous. Watching a home run is cocky. Too cocky. If a guy wants to do the Kirk Gibson pump every time he hits a home run, I don't have a problem with it. He quite likely won't be my favorite player -- I prefer the Delucci style of circling after a big home run like that was what you were supposed to do -- but if a guy is the animated sort, I won't deny him his personality. Watching a home run is just ugly arrogance.
I think what you have with Joba is a 22 year old who just picked up the second loss of his career to the same team he lost to the first time. He's facing the guy who hit a HR off him. He's been facing NYY beat writers who have been asking him a ton of questions about whether he has some problem with Cleveland, if there's something about them that gives him trouble. He comes in, faces the guy who hit the HR off him and strikes the guy out. Even if it's not a big deal to the season or the team, I'd imagine it's a pretty big deal to Joba.
I don't see a big yell and fist pump while walking off the mound as a big deal, I've never complained about a pitcher on another team doing it, but even if it really bothers you, you have to consider what the situation was like for Joba and understand it was a bigger deal for him than for the regular ball player.
...because the regular ball player is a lot more mature.
Makes sense doesn't it? The regular ball player is a lot older than Joba.
Don't see too many young guys acting like idiots out there either actually edit: in the non-Jose Valverde category.
Regardless for his own sake he should probably tone it down about 6 notches unless he wants to hear about this crap day in day out. Everyone would be better off.
Bingo.
I remember an inadvertent fist pump right now that most people would've said: "WTF?"
2003 PR Winter League. First ever appearance, 2nd inning, none on, nobody out. I'm facing Luis Lopez...the RH one w/ the open stance if that helps. He's a PR vet, very well respected and can hit a bit. He also stands REALLY close to the plate, looking to pull everything.
I mix in some of my sidearm slop, away, away, away, away. Count gets to 2-2, catcher calls a fastball (Mediocre-ball) in. I KNOW this is the right pitch, but I'm not very good coming inside at the time (I had "some" command issues), don't want to hit the guy, he likes the ball in.....yadayada. I Gulp, say a quick "F$#k it!" in my head and threw a beautiful sinker than started right on the corner, and it ran and dipped right under his bat for a swinging K.
I gave it a little fist pump. Not cuz I K'd a guy who I respected, hell I had K'd Craig Monroe for my first ever Winter Ball K. This one was more for personal vindication. I had done something that I had been unable to do. To this day, that pitch is in my personal Top 3 in my memory bank of successful pitches.
Sorry to interrupt. Back to work...
I can think of at least two other young closers, K-rod and Papelbon, who act like "idiots" out there as well.
Regardless for his own sake he should probably tone it down about 6 notches unless he wants to hear about this crap day in day out. Everyone would be better off.
People could also stop complaining about it so we wouldn't have to hear about this crap day in day out. Everyone would be better off.
Ummmm when the players are complaining about it, it's an obvious problem that he can solve himself and you're just apologizing for immaturity if you think otherwise.
It's not. Dellucci could just not complain just as easily as Joba could not celebrate. And Dellucci didn't complain, he commented on how pitchers get a free pass on behavior that hitter's usually get called out for. The only complaining is limited to people in this thread and the headline writer.
And I'm not apologizing for anything. I think if you have a problem with someone celebrating after succeeding in a baseball game, you're an unbelievable tight ass. I don't mind when anyone does it, on any team, in any game. I see nothing that suggests that celebrating is immature, I'm not sure how this became a maturity issue or how acting like a Puritan is the mature thing to do. I see nothing wrong with a kid who is 22 and has been a pro for all of a year and half reacting like that to that situation.
It's pretty meaningless to have a bunch of Indians fans compaining about Joba, but I think it's necessary for Yankees fans to do it if they don't like it. If Yankees fans are embarrassed by the behavior of members of their team, the player should be made aware of it. He then has the option to change his behavior to better represent the fan base or not, the consequence (I imagine) being that the fans will be quicker to the boo button during the rough patches.
There's nothing worse than rooting for a team full of players that embarrass you.
/bump, set
Amen, baby. I do the full crotch thrust and rub when I catch a dangling OR misplaced modifier, even if it's a meaningless early-semester in-class essay.
I know you don't feel this way, but I don't think anyone should be embarrassed by Joba. I am a bit embarrassed by Bruney being such a sore loser in the quote at the beginning of the page, but there's nothing Joba did that I can believe is legitimately upsetting Yankee fans.
When they throw at other teams and bush league slide into second base, I'm embarrassed, when they display emotion and passion for the game they play, I'm happy to root for them.
Not pointing at anybody in particular, but generally if you're going to shrug at Joba you are really removing yourself from being able to jump on Papelbon or K-Rod. At least those two are doing all that stuff when the game is won (by and large). Me, I love to watch all of them pitch, but I cannot stand the hooting. Bring back the Tug McGraw thigh slap. But, you know, without the screaming.
Papelbon is my second favorite relief pitcher, after Mo. I love the guy when he's not pitching against the Yankees.
I'm kinda surprised the vocal element bothers you, it seems like a natural part of the game to me. When I'm at a baseball game, the first thing I do after a big strike out for my team is cheer.
I remember he did it in the 8th inning of game 4 of the ALCS in 1992.
I also remember what happened in the 9th inning.
I'm not opposed to cheering, of course. It's the nature of having the person who did something good calling out for everyone to look at him.
I guess the way I break it down is this: if you're version of celebrating can be done behind somebody's back without causing them to turn around, it's fine. It's the difference between celebrating for yourself and insisting that others be included.
If you don't want to see Manny stare at a homerun, don't let him hit a homerun. It's that simple.
I hate that mentality. It suggests that the best way to ensure some respect from Manny is to stick it in his ear every time he comes up.
I think that's the guy that punched out Rey Ordonez on the team bus.
I think it's because the natural reaction of a ballplayer at any professional level should be to start running once you've made contact with the ball that I object to this act as uncouth.
Of course, you can stand and watch a home run behind somebody's back, so I guess it passes my own silly rule in that regard. I'm not trying to sway anybody else -- just throwing in my own thoughts on the issue. And, yes, I just keep making up my own rules as I go along.
I don't think it suggests that at all. If I'm an elite athelte and someone of comparable skill beats me fair and square and feels the need to rub my nose in it that's his perrogative. If I don't want him to rub my nose in it I need to beat him. Now, obviously, if I beat my 3-year old in NERF hoops and taunt him that's going overboard but these guys are pros and should be able to handle it. All of this "Well you can fist pump but it must be done like this and not like this" is just silly. Like we need some sort of Celebratory Code of Conduct" distributed thoughout MLB clubhouses. I find all of it at this level pretty entertaining.
I totally disagree. Life is hard, and is full of taller, older dudes constantly dunking on you. The sooner your 3-year old learns that, the better off he will be.
And it's my prerogative to believe he is behaving like an ass.
All of this "Well you can fist pump but it must be done like this and not like this" is just silly.
Again, I'm just stating what I like and don't like. I'm not looking to institute policy.*
If I allow Manny to continue staring at his drives to his heart's content, then will you allow me to continue to believe that it's poor form and classless?
*On edit: Though, again, if Manny were on a team that I root for, I would be embarrassed by it and would vocalize my strong belief that he should stop. For whatever that would be worth, which, to Manny, I'm guessing would be not much.
we need to see the return of one flap down.
And I thought Eckersley was annoying as hell.
I meant to bring this back around to my comment about sticking it in his ear by simply saying that a player deserves Manny's respect by being on a major league field with him, not by being a better player. We're talking about basic respect in conduct. If you are better than me and you're going to keep making a show of it, eventually I am going to realize I can't beat you and stick one in your ear for being douchtastic about it.
Yeah. My comment was trying to summarize in one phrase what you were saying in #33. Everything you brought up - his age, his higher emotions because of who the batter was and what he'd recently done, his inability to handle the NYY beat writers appropriately for his role - stems from his immaturity.
Frankly, I think he has a greater level of immaturity than other players his age, or maybe he has equivalent immaturity but is much more high-strung emotionally. He's Sylvester Marcus with a fastball. (Work with THAT, Repoz.) His upside is Nuke LaLoosh.
I've no problem with his celebratory antics. Throwing at Youkilis' head twice in a row... THAT I have a problem with. If I were a Yankees fan, his inability to do his job because of bugs - even though his teammates and opponents could do theirs - might bother me. His immaturity/emotions will cause real problems down the road if he doesn't learn to harness it.
If Yankee fans ought to be embarrassed by anybody, it should be Shelley Duncan. His utter terribleness with the bat should make it easy.
huh? He's 22, for god's sake. There are plenty of examples of high-strung guys who figured out how to harness it. David Cone comes to mind.
I'm not seeing why Joba is more-or-less torqued than anyone else who pumps their fist, etc. I can see plenty of reasons why he might not suceed as a starter, but maturity seems low on the list. In fact, I wouldn't even put it on the list.
I'm not saying he won't. I'm saying if he doesn't he'll have some serious problems. I could say it a third time, if that'll help.
His dad is dying a slow and painful death at a young age. If we're going to pyscho-analyze Joba, he's got a lot of strain and pressure coming from off the field that most of his peers at his age haven't had to deal with in their lives.
If Yankee fans ought to be embarrassed by anybody, it should be Shelley Duncan. His utter terribleness with the bat should make it easy.
I got to him later in the post, the slide comment was made with him in mind.
He can do it all he wants, but he sure as Hell shouldn't get upset about anything the opposition does. Same with the Yankees. If Manny Ramirez wants to stand at home plate for 5 minutes watching a home run there better not be a peep from their dugout.
You must have been a slap hitter. When one hits a ball well out of the park, the natural reaction is to watch. Hell, I'd say the natural reaction to hitting the ball is to watch where it goes. It takes training to drop the bat and run. If a guy did a little dance rounding the bases, that would be showing the pitcher up (One Flap Down, for instance).
He can do it all he wants, but he sure as Hell shouldn't get upset about anything the opposition does.
Every player should observe this rule. Live and let live. It's a ####1ng game.
I understand VI. However, I think it's far too easy to misread a player's behavior due to age. Just last week, CC Sabathia got fired up, punched his glove and screamed after a strikeout - in the 7th inning, when he was down 1 run. Not quite comparable to Joba's behavior, but close, yet no one bats an eye, because he's CC Sabathia.
I guess what I mean to say is, you see Randy Johnson snarl and shout at himself all the time, but since he's Randy Johnson that's just intense competativeness. Joba does it - he's an immature doofus.
Again, not equivalent acts. Manny is standing and watching when he really should be doing something else (running to first). The pitching equivalent would be if Joba was standing around pumping his fist when he should be running to cover first on a groundball to the right side because he's confident the first baseman can take it himself.
If Manny's celebration was that he always pumped his fist as he rounded first, I'm sure there would be a lot less furor.
Also, for my part, you can substitute any name you want to use for Manny. He was introduced as the example and I ran with that. Given that the names we are using are Yankees and Red Sox, we may be leaning toward some misplaced emotion in the discussion.
On edit: You must have been a slap hitter. When one hits a ball well out of the park, the natural reaction is to watch. Hell, I'd say the natural reaction to hitting the ball is to watch where it goes.
Independent of the quality of my hitting, I was trained at every level to start running once I made contact with the ball, and every former ballplayer whom I've heard speak, in broadcasts and elsewhere, says that's the right way to do it. I would suggest that if your natural reaction to hitting the ball is to watch where it goes, you haven't been taught the game properly.
You are also assuming that players who stop to watch home runs only do it when the ball is "well out of the park." I've seen plenty of cases where the ball stayed in.
Remember that home run that Glenallen Hill hit out of Wrigley? The one that landed on the roof of the building across the street?
I think he could be allowed to admire a home run like that.
Sit down and paint a picture of it, for all I care.
Same with Pujols' jack in the playoffs off Lidge.
If you hit a ball so hard that everyone in the stadium says "holy ####!", then you can admire it all you want.
If you hit a frozen rope that barely clears the fence, then you better be hustling your ass the whole time.
Carlton Fisk : not taught properly
I support this completely.
Wait, are you saying those who read him as immature are misreading him? Earlier I had the impression you thought nobody should be shocked that he's immature given his age.
If I had to guess - and I do - I think you're saying his immaturity might be solely a product of his age, and that we shouldn't assume it's something he can't naturally overcome in due time. Sure, I agree with that. I am assuming it is something he can overcome. I'm also recognizing that maybe he can't/won't, and that if that happens it's going to be a problem. There's nothing groundbreaking about my comment.
If you think I'm unfairly judging Joba, that's fine. I think Randy Johnson is immature for his age, too - and maybe I'm unfairly judging him. FWIW, I didn't see Paul O'Neill as immature, nor as someone who was emotionally high-strung; I saw him as someone who absolutely hated failure, at an irrational level. Same for Youkilis, though exactly how that irrational hatred manifests itself is different in each case.
Tejada also supposedly said "There are families/children watching." Yes, that would be the same Miguel Tejada who was [at least back then, dunno if he's changed since] in the habit of cursing a blue streak audible from the entire stadium every time he was fanned.
He was, in fact, doing these things before his dad's situation was as you describe, so this is not the explanation here.
As a student, I'm curious as to why these aer so exciting.
Oh, thanks, now we get to sit through a full-length Ickey Shuffle performance before the next post.
If Manny hits a 500 foot homerun, running to first is not a "job." Yeah, if it's a wall scraper I agree, but some boms are clearly gone...
Again Chamberlain looks like a douche. There is really no denying that.
A comment like this almost makes me wish I had to take English when I transferred to UTA to finish my engineering degree.
Almost.
You don't need me to tell you that you're completely welcome to set your own standards. Mine are that you should be running until the ball clearly the wall, with no exception. There's no harm in admiring the flight of an obvious home run on your way to first. Lots of guys have made that work.
Again Chamberlain looks like a douche. There is really no denying that.
Climbing on Chamberlain doesn't reveal nearly as much about him as it does about the person calling him out. His antics are no worse, and barely any different, than those of at least a dozen other players. The only thing that could set him apart for anybody, in my opinion, is a general anti-Yankee bias.
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