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Thursday, March 28, 2019

Derek Jeter on trading Giancarlo Stanton and Christian Yelich: ‘We’re fixing something that wasn’t working’

Miami Marlins owner Derek Jeter has turned the team over quite a bit since taking over. When Jeter’s group first assumed control, the Marlins were blessed with talented youngsters like Giancarlo Stanton, Christian Yelich and Marcell Ozuna. A few months later, those players were gone.

Why did Jeter feel it was necessary to make those moves? Because that core wasn’t winning.

Jeter sat down with Harold Reynolds of MLB Network to discuss those initial moves. Jeter tells Reynolds the team was struggling with those players, and that the ownership group was “fixing something that wasn’t working.”

One gets the feeling he spoke with Harold Reynolds because no one else would let him get away with that bulljive and bunkum….

 

QLE Posted: March 28, 2019 at 05:49 AM | 42 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: bullshit, christian yelich, derek jeter, giancarlo stanton, harold reynolds, marlins baseball – helping other teams get better since 1998

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   1. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: March 28, 2019 at 09:45 AM (#5826001)
no one else would let him get away with that bulljive and bunkum


Hey! Watch your mouth!
   2. Adam Starblind Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:13 AM (#5826021)
This is a lot like blaming Obama for the Democrats' woes from 2010 on. Did you ever consider blaming, I don't know, the crappy candidates who actually lost their elections?

Ok, /politics
   3. Davo Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:20 AM (#5826024)
“We tried winning with good players....”
   4. The usual palaver and twaddle (Met Fan Charlie) Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:40 AM (#5826033)
"We lost 100 games last year; we can do that without you." -- Branch Rickey, Pittsburgh Pirates General Manager, to Ralph Kiner during a holdout
   5. . Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:47 AM (#5826042)
And as usual, the truth is somewhere in the middle. Jeter's right in saying that the Marlins as constructed weren't really working, but laughably wrong in saying that his management team is somehow "fixing" it.

But the internet doesn't do the truth is somewhere in the middle very well, and so here we are.
   6. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:51 AM (#5826050)
You don't get better by getting rid of players like Stanton and Yelich, you get better by acquiring them.
   7. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:56 AM (#5826055)
4--I don't understand. The Marlins didn't lose 100 games with Yelich and Stanton. Miami won 79 games in 2016 when Yelich was the best player based on WAR and 77 games in 2017 when Stanton was the best player by WAR. What am I missing??? I mean, not great results but not awful.
   8. jmurph Posted: March 28, 2019 at 11:23 AM (#5826073)
I'd defend trading Stanton conceptually- the contract the new owners inherited was basically designed to be dealt early- it's just that their approach has seemingly been exclusively about saving money, not about acquiring young talent.
   9. Astroenteritis Posted: March 28, 2019 at 12:41 PM (#5826146)
"Hey, this car has two flat tires, so let's remove the engine and see if that helps!"
   10. Blastin Posted: March 28, 2019 at 01:00 PM (#5826158)
I mean, the problem is Fernandez died.

But my god, you've got to communicate better.
   11. Tom Nawrocki Posted: March 28, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5826218)
Yeah, Fernandez would likely have pulled them over .500 in 2017 and given them two charismatic, marketable young superstars, with Yelich on the way. They might even have been in wild card contention. We might look back at Fernandez' death and think that it just destroyed the Marlins' franchise.
   12. Tom Nawrocki Posted: March 28, 2019 at 02:04 PM (#5826220)
.
   13. Blastin Posted: March 28, 2019 at 02:25 PM (#5826234)
Stanton himself said that everything fell apart after that.
   14. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: March 28, 2019 at 02:29 PM (#5826242)
We might look back at Fernandez' death and think that it just destroyed the Marlins' franchise.


I agree with this, kind of how the 1994 strike destroyed the Expos.
   15. The Yankee Clapper Posted: March 28, 2019 at 02:36 PM (#5826250)
You don't get better by getting rid of players like Stanton and Yelich, you get better by acquiring them.

There was a near-consensus here that the Marlins had to trade Stanton, since his contract was so back-loaded that it would be a financial albatross for a low-revenue team like the Marlins. I disagreed, thinking marketing the hell out of Stanton for at least 1 year might generate a positive response to the new ownership. Hard to say who was right, but the Total Rebuild scenario seems to have become the near-universal response for non-contending teams. It’s not really a Jeter thing, although singling him out for criticism is a long-standing BBTF tradition.
   16. Tom Nawrocki Posted: March 28, 2019 at 02:39 PM (#5826252)
There was no need to trade Stanton. Even if there were, trading him to Jeter's old team for three piles of dog crap was not necessary.
   17. Jeff Frances the Mute Posted: March 28, 2019 at 02:43 PM (#5826254)
There was a near-consensus here that the Marlins had to trade Stanton, since his contract was so back-loaded that it would be a financial albatross for a low-revenue team like the Marlins. I disagreed, thinking marketing the hell out of Stanton for at least 1 year might generate a positive response to the new ownership. Hard to say who was right, but the Total Rebuild scenario seems to have become the near-universal response for non-contending teams. It’s not really a Jeter thing, although singling him out for criticism is a long-standing BBTF tradition.

The consensus here was/is that the Marlins "had" to trade Stanton because Jeter's ownership group is undercapitalized and cannot afford to run a significant short term loss. Once Jeter's group was approved by MLB it was inevitable that a payroll dump would commence.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 28, 2019 at 02:54 PM (#5826277)
The consensus here was/is that the Marlins "had" to trade Stanton because Jeter's ownership group is undercapitalized and cannot afford to run a significant short term loss. Once Jeter's group was approved by MLB it was inevitable that a payroll dump would commence.

This is all true. The thing that amazes me is that they seem to have given Jeter actual decision making power. I assumed that he was just going to be a figurehead, but apparently not. You could at least have someone competent do your larcenous tear-down.
   19. KronicFatigue Posted: March 28, 2019 at 05:10 PM (#5826395)
Is there any chance that eventually, Arod's reputation will be better than Jeter's? Arod's killing it as an analyst and adviser while Jeter seems destined to become the villain in Florida. Arod's social awkwardness prevented him from getting out of his own way as a player, but Jeter's ego is preventing him from adjusting to his new role.

I would absolutely love it for them to flip in the next decade or so.
   20. Walt Davis Posted: March 28, 2019 at 06:07 PM (#5826437)
Jeter takes a bit too much heat for the Stanton trade. Stanton's contract was such that he was siighly ovrpriced relative to market so you couldn't expect much in return. And the Marlins reportedly worked out better trades with the Giants and Cardinals that were rejected by Stanton. I'd hae just kept him in that scenario but no GM was gonna get back anything in that scenario.

But Yelich and Ozuna had real value and Jeter got back crap for them too.
   21. Rennie's Tenet Posted: March 28, 2019 at 06:19 PM (#5826440)
It's an excuse that can be used again and again.
   22. the Hugh Jorgan returns Posted: March 28, 2019 at 09:52 PM (#5826515)
I'd hae just kept him in that scenario but no GM was gonna get back anything in that scenario.


Balderdash. Sure his trade value was reduced due to restricted teams, but as you said, you hold onto him and trade him at the deadline to a contending team looking for big bat. You'd surely get back more then the magic beans that Jeter got.

To add to #18, I'm quite stunned they seem to be giving Jeter decision making power. Sure, he was a darn good SS, but playing GM against guys like Theo, DD, Beane, Cashman and rest...he is way, way, way out of his depth. Those guys are, well you know, like really smart and Derek, well let's just say he's not the sharpest tool in the shed.
   23. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:00 PM (#5826518)
Balderdash. Sure his trade value was reduced due to restricted team, but as you said, you hold onto him and trade him at the deadline to a contending team looking for big bat. You'd surely get back more then the magic beans that Jeter got.
No team was going to take on Stanton's contract and give back real value too. No one. That's not the way it works anymore, nor should it be.
   24. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:02 PM (#5826519)
(never mind)
   25. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:07 PM (#5826522)
Balderdash. Sure his trade value was reduced due to restricted teams, but as you said, you hold onto him and trade him at the deadline to a contending team looking for big bat. You'd surely get back more then the magic beans that Jeter got.


Thing is, trading Stanton was business decision, not a baseball one. Holding onto him for 2/3 of the season would have cost them ~$16 million - any attendance boost keeping him on the roster would have generated. I assume that would have been unacceptable to the new owners.
   26. Swoboda is freedom Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:19 PM (#5826527)
Thing is, trading Stanton was business decision, not a baseball one. Holding onto him for 2/3 of the season would have cost them ~$16 million - any attendance boost keeping him on the roster would have generated. I assume that would have been unacceptable to the new owners.


But the Marlins had to pick up $30 million of Stanton's contract, but eat Castro's $10 million.
   27. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:20 PM (#5826528)
Marlins attendance was down 700K last year, but not all of that was due to Stanton. They traded Yelich, Gordon, and Ozuna also. At $30 profit per ticket, that's $21 mil lost, but keeping those 4 would have cost $52 mil.
   28. Misirlou gave her his Vincent to ride Posted: March 28, 2019 at 10:21 PM (#5826531)
But the Marlins had to pick up $30 million of Stanton's contract, but eat Castro's $10 million.


Thus the need to trade everyone else making more than the minimum.

edit: And the $30 mil doesn't go to the Yankees until 2021, if ever.
   29. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 29, 2019 at 09:31 AM (#5826588)
Is there any chance that eventually, Arod's reputation will be better than Jeter's? Arod's killing it as an analyst and adviser while Jeter seems destined to become the villain in Florida. Arod's social awkwardness prevented him from getting out of his own way as a player, but Jeter's ego is preventing him from adjusting to his new role.

I would absolutely love it for them to flip in the next decade or so.


I think so. ARod is legitimately smart, though he's smarmy and I don't really like him. Jeter seems dumb, stubborn, and full of himself. Exposed in public, that's an unattractive combination.
   30. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: March 29, 2019 at 09:51 AM (#5826600)
Jeter seems dumb, stubborn, and full of himself. Exposed in public, that's an unattractive combination.
...to only about 52 percent of Americans. Sigh.
   31. . Posted: March 29, 2019 at 09:57 AM (#5826603)
This is all true. The thing that amazes me is that they seem to have given Jeter actual decision making power. I assumed that he was just going to be a figurehead, but apparently not.


It's not really that amazing; Jeter's job is just to be the face and ####-absorber for the teardown, and the teardown is being done primarily -- almost certainly -- to eventually flip the team. If somehow the endgame of the money guys is to keep the team and move it, Jeter won't be involved in any baseball decision making in the new city.

The only real question is whether the money guys have let Jeter in on the eventual plan, or whether they're letting him persist in the delusion that they actually care about his "baseball decisions."

The Marlins have been an asset to tear-down, strip, and flip for virtually their entire existence.
   32. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: March 29, 2019 at 10:01 AM (#5826608)
Aren't they paying Jeter like $10 million per year (including his travel allowance)? To me, that's the crazy part. You can't pay your superstar MVP $25m but you can pay a lousy figurehead CEO $10 million? Pay Jeter a more reasonable $2 million (if you need to, make up some of the difference with a performance-based equity kicker) and you've freed up nearly $100 million in cash for Stanton over the remaining life of his contract.
   33. . Posted: March 29, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5826610)
Jeter's salary is the effective equivalent of the private equity "special dividend."
   34. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 29, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5826646)
It's not really that amazing; Jeter's job is just to be the face and ####-absorber for the teardown, and the teardown is being done primarily -- almost certainly -- to eventually flip the team. If somehow the endgame of the money guys is to keep the team and move it, Jeter won't be involved in any baseball decision making in the new city.

It's still stupid. You could have a real baseball exec. run the team, save $7M a year, and have a more valuable product (better prospects and young players) after the tear down.

Jeter's only value was in winning the bid. Now he's just an expensive, incompetent GM.
   35. . Posted: March 29, 2019 at 11:21 AM (#5826650)
and have a more valuable product (better prospects and young players) after the tear down.


Those wouldn't add anything to the sales price.

There's no indication this group cares a single lick about the baseball product put on the field. I'll simply repeat that the Marlins have been an operate on a shoestring, strip, and flip operation since virtually their inception -- no surprise given their market. There's every indication they're still that now, and no real reason to argue that they should be anything but. They got the new stadium, which let Loria flip, and now there's not even that. There's only operate on a shoestring, strip, and hope the next sucker will pay you $1.5 or something -- based primarily on the potential to move -- or that MLB will let you move.

No one with money has been willing to put money into the Marlins and operate them other than for very short periods of time at competitive payroll outlays -- pretty much ever.

The Miami market cannot support the kind of competitive baseball people (pretty much rightly) say they want. Until the market is abandoned, that isn't going to change. It may be that there aren't 30 markets that can support the kind of competitive baseball people (pretty much rightly) say they want.
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 29, 2019 at 01:30 PM (#5826696)
The Miami market cannot support the kind of competitive baseball people (pretty much rightly) say they want. Until the market is abandoned, that isn't going to change. It may be that there aren't 30 markets that can support the kind of competitive baseball people (pretty much rightly) say they want.

Maybe not after 25 years of larcenous ownership, but if Milwaukee and KC can support competitive baseball, Miami certainly could.
   37. base ball chick Posted: March 29, 2019 at 01:36 PM (#5826699)
what was "not working" was the fact that MLB allowed ownership to buy even though they didn't really have the $$$ to run the team because MLB doesn't care

so derek fires anyone earning anything - except his own self natcherilly

they get the income from the empty seats bought by corp $$$ and tv $$$ and they have exactly ZERO reason to bother to put anything but crap on the field

MLB thinks this is fine and i guess most fans/media think this is fine

and #35 SBB is dead right

this is the second time in this year i have agreed with him. if i had any health ins i'd go see a doctor
   38. Tony S Posted: March 29, 2019 at 05:49 PM (#5826817)
Maybe not after 25 years of larcenous ownership, but if Milwaukee and KC can support competitive baseball, Miami certainly could.


This. Yes, it turns out that Miami is a lousy market for steaming dog turds. What's WRONG with that city? :)

The Seattle Mariners share a lot of Miami's geographic limitations, at the opposite corner of the country. For the first decade and a half of their existence, their ownership never made an effort to field a winner (George Argyros was the Jeffrey Loria of his generation), and attendance and local interest in the team predictably lagged. Everybody said Seattle was a lousy baseball market. Then they got real ownership, the organization started trying, and the Mariners are now a local institution -- even though they've been mediocre on the field for years.



   39. . Posted: March 29, 2019 at 06:36 PM (#5826821)
Maybe not after 25 years of larcenous ownership, but if Milwaukee and KC can support competitive baseball, Miami certainly could.


No, snapper, this doesn't follow in the least. Markets vary dramatically in their consumer preferences.

No one with money has ever, in nearly 30 years, been willing to risk anything in the Miami baseball market. That speaks volumes. Pretty much the mic drop, really.
   40. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: March 29, 2019 at 06:52 PM (#5826824)
No one with money has ever, in nearly 30 years, been willing to risk anything in the Miami baseball market. That speaks volumes. Pretty much the mic drop, really.

Yeah, who ever heard of Cubans liking baseball [facepalm].
   41. . Posted: March 29, 2019 at 07:08 PM (#5826830)
Yeah, who ever heard of Cubans liking baseball [facepalm].


No one's been willing to spend money finding out for almost 30 years.(*) That speaks far louder than a bunch of speculative anecdotes.

(*) And of course the question isn't how much Cubans like baseball, but how much money Cubans are willing to spend in support of a major league baseball team.
   42. Dog on the sidewalk has an ugly bracelet Posted: March 29, 2019 at 08:07 PM (#5826837)
Maybe not after 25 years of larcenous ownership, but if Milwaukee and KC can support competitive baseball, Miami certainly could.

The Dolphins sell out every game. The Heat draw well, though their fans don't have a great reputation...

The Marlins drew decent crowds prior to the dismantling of the '97 team. Attendance cratered immediately afterward, and it's never rebounded, save a small new stadium boost.

In that time, no one has made much of an effort to build and sustain a winning product, choosing safe profits instead. I think all anyone can reasonably say is that we don't really know how the city would respond to a good product.

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