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Thursday, May 01, 2008

Detroit Freep: Hard lemonade, hard price - Dad’s oversight at Tigers game lands son in foster care

A couple of lemons, a little sugar, a teaspoon of grain alcohol, a few state-appointed nuts, shake and pour.

The 47-year-old academic says he wasn’t even aware alcoholic lemonade existed when he and Leo stopped at a concession stand on the way to their seats in Section 114.

“I’d never drunk it, never purchased it, never heard of it,” Ratte of Ann Arbor told me sheepishly last week. “And it’s certainly not what I expected when I ordered a lemonade for my 7-year-old.”

But it wasn’t until the top of the ninth inning that a Comerica Park security guard noticed the bottle in young Leo’s hand. ...

 

S. Ransom Posted: May 01, 2008 at 08:33 AM | 306 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: tigers

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   1. Belfry Bob Posted: May 01, 2008 at 12:28 PM (#2764918)
Didn't the Daily News say the same thing happened to Roger Clemens and Mindy McCready when she was 15?
   2. Guapo Posted: May 01, 2008 at 12:59 PM (#2764944)
You got Hundleyed!
   3. Toolsy McClutch Posted: May 01, 2008 at 01:49 PM (#2764986)
Wow, that's crazy. I could see that being an honest mistake, and to go days without seeing your son, or knowing if he was ok would just kill me.

Still, I think the law is well intentioned and has the best inrerests of society behind it. And just because this is probably the .0001 percent of cases where it failed, I don't think throwing the whole process out is the right answer.
   4. Wahoo Werewolf Posted: May 01, 2008 at 01:53 PM (#2764992)
The lack of Common Sense is running amuck in Michigan
   5. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 01, 2008 at 01:58 PM (#2764997)
They should take his kids away.
   6. Dizzypaco Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:03 PM (#2764999)
The lack of Common Sense is running amuck in Michigan

Agreed. Cases in which enforcement of a law a)defies common sense, and b)creates great hardship, should not be enforced. This is one of those cases.
   7. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:05 PM (#2765000)
As a parent, I actually teared up reading this. A horrible situation for the family.
   8. scotto Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:05 PM (#2765002)
This was an even better link when JC in DC posted it the other day.
   9. Toolsy McClutch Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:12 PM (#2765011)
Link?
   10. Lassus Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:15 PM (#2765015)
It sounds like a pretty terrible situation, but if it makes the father less of an idiot next time, the laws worked.
   11. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:21 PM (#2765024)
The 47-year-old academic says he wasn’t even aware alcoholic lemonade existed

I call BS, there is no way an academic person doesn't know about every single of kind of alcohol on this planet.

Also, 5 posts to a "children taken away". Cna't believe it took that long
   12. scotto Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:22 PM (#2765029)
Just scroll through pages, Toolsy. My point is that this is a repost of an article posted the other day.
   13. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:28 PM (#2765036)
Also, 5 posts to a "children taken away". Cna't believe it took that long


It didn't. It took 2.

Oh, and the state should have their children and family services department taken away.
   14. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:33 PM (#2765045)
if it makes the father less of an idiot next time, the laws worked

He's an idiot because he doesn't know about every product marketed to the wish-I-was-drunk-right-now crowd. Got it.

The sign beside the vendor said "MIKE'S LEMONADE". He can be forgiven if he was not in fact sold lemonade.
   15. Toolsy McClutch Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:34 PM (#2765048)
http://www.baseballthinkfactory.org/files/newsstand/discussion/ice_cold_hard_time/

Bad label by JC, I skipped over it twice.
   16. Dan The Mediocre is one of "the rest" Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:37 PM (#2765052)
I call BS, there is no way an academic person doesn't know about every single of kind of alcohol on this planet.


Not all academics are Christopher Hitchens.
   17. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:38 PM (#2765056)
The sign beside the vendor said "MIKE'S LEMONADE". He can be forgiven if he was not in fact sold lemonade.


It's "MIKE'S HARD LEMONADE" which is different, and I know ballpark prices are high but the price should have made him do a double take.
   18. rfloh Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:48 PM (#2765065)
"Once the court has authorized a child's removal," Patterson told me, "we cannot return the child to the parental custody" until the court has OK'd it.

But that doesn't explain why CPS refused to release Leo to the custody of two aunts -- one a social worker and licensed foster parent -- who drove all night from New England to take custody of their nephew.

Chris Ratte's sisters, Catherine Miller and Felicity Ratte, left Massachusetts at 10:30 the night of the fateful lemonade purchase after the police officer who'd reluctantly requested a removal order told Ratte the state would likely jump at the chance to place Leo with responsible relatives. But when the two women arrived at the CPS office early Sunday, a caseworker explained they would not be allowed to see Leo until they had secured a hotel room.

The sisters quickly complied. But by the time they returned to CPS around 10:30 a.m., their nephew had been taken to an undisclosed foster home, where he would remain until a preliminary court hearing the following afternoon.



At a hearing later that day, Jones recommended that Leo remain in foster care until she had completed her investigation, a process she estimated would take several days. It was only after the assistant attorney general who represented CPS admitted that the state was not interested in pursuing the case aggressively that juvenile referee Leslie Graves agreed to release Leo to his mother -- on the condition that Ratte himself relocate to a hotel.

Finally, at a second hearing three days later, Graves dismissed the complaint and permitted Ratte to move home.
   19. Mister High Standards Posted: May 01, 2008 at 02:58 PM (#2765085)
I don't think the security gaurd or the system did anything wrong. The assumption should not be the someone did not know what they were purchasing. Not knowing the speed limit is not an excuse for driving above the speed limit.
   20. Charles S. hopes his opening day is b4 opening day Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:05 PM (#2765111)
The Comerica cop estimated that Leo had drunk about 12 ounces of the hard lemonade, which is 5% alcohol. But an ER resident who drew Leo's blood less than 90 minutes after he and his father were escorted from their seats detected no trace of alcohol.

"Completely normal appearing," the resident wrote in his report, "... he is cleared to go home."


Does this tell us that Mike's is some weak (stuff), or that Leo is one badass 7-year-old?
   21. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:10 PM (#2765128)
It's "MIKE'S HARD LEMONADE" which is different,

No kidding, that's why the sign is bad. But again, even if the word "HARD" was there, a harried papa might just see "LEMONADE". That product is marketed extremely deceptively.

and I know ballpark prices are high but the price should have made him do a double take.

No sale; why should he assume that high price means alcohol? Maybe he doesn't buy alcohol. And when I go to a ballpark, I am not in a bargain-seeking mindset. I don't blink much at the price of anything that my kids need. $7 for a bottle of lemonade, oof, sure, but I hope it's really good lemonade 'cause you're gonna drink it all before you get something else.
   22. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:11 PM (#2765130)
I certainly hope they made him drink the rest of the 6-pack as an object lesson.
   23. DJ Endless Grudge Plays All The Hits (CW) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:12 PM (#2765137)
Does this tell us that Mike's is some weak (stuff), or that Leo is one badass 7-year-old?


I used to drink it pretty often, and I gotta admit that it's not quite akin to drinking Sterno. That said... that's one hell of a kid!
   24. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:13 PM (#2765140)
No kidding, that's why the sign is bad. But again, even if the word "HARD" was there, a harried papa might just see "LEMONADE". That product is marketed extremely deceptively.


Fair point. However, and I don't know where they're sold at Comerica, I usually see Mike's Hard Lemonade sold at beer stands, where they have the bottles of what they sell on display. Can one reasonably expect beer and lemonade to be sold at the same stand? I think that it's really this simple: this guy hasn't been to a ball game in years and he had no idea what he was doing. Doesn't excuse him from being an idiot though.
   25. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:14 PM (#2765144)
Not knowing the speed limit is not an excuse for driving above the speed limit.

If you can show that not knowing is reasonable, you would hope that good judgement on the part of the accuser would take over. And good judgement was not exercised here, probably because nowadays you can be sued for using good judgement instead of following the rules.
   26. Slinger Francisco Barrios (Dr. Memory) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:17 PM (#2765154)
Doesn't excuse him from being an idiot though.

He was apparently ignorant of a few things in this case. But he's not an idiot because he didn't know them, or because he was not worldly enough to satisfy the judgement of the unwashed.

Edit: and by "the unwashed," I'm referring to the comments on the article. Read them and weep for the requirements to vote in elections.
   27. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:18 PM (#2765158)
Detroit? I figured the Ligue family was all out of jail and back at White Sox games.
   28. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:18 PM (#2765159)
I don't think the security gaurd or the system did anything wrong. The assumption should not be the someone did not know what they were purchasing. Not knowing the speed limit is not an excuse for driving above the speed limit.


It certainly is if there is no sign posted.
   29. JPWF13 Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:22 PM (#2765163)
My wife who doesn't drink, and has no tolerance for alcohol (It makes her sick), began drinking hard lemonade (not Mike's- some other brand) by accident at a barbecue a few years ago... she stopped pretty quickly though...
   30. JPWF13 Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:25 PM (#2765168)
I don't think the security gaurd or the system did anything wrong.


Some days some posts really scare me, this is one of them...
   31. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:26 PM (#2765172)
"Can one reasonably expect beer and lemonade to be sold at the same stand?"

Sure, why not? You can get beer and soda at the same stand at PNC.
   32. Dizzypaco Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:27 PM (#2765173)
I don't think the security gaurd or the system did anything wrong. The assumption should not be the someone did not know what they were purchasing. Not knowing the speed limit is not an excuse for driving above the speed limit.

Knowingly giving your child alcohol is a crime, even if you didn't know there was a law against it. That is the proper analogy. Not knowingly giving your child alcohol is not a crime.

Doesn't excuse him from being an idiot though.

I'm still trying to figure out how being unaware of Mike's Hard Lemonade makes someone an idiot. There are many idiots involved in this case. The father isn't one of them.
   33. Boots Day Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:27 PM (#2765174)
I think the parent showed extremely poor judgment in this case. You gotta start a seven-year-old off on something more kid-friendly, like a daiquiri.
   34. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:30 PM (#2765179)
You can get beer and soda at the same stand at PNC.


Not every park is like that though.

I'm still trying to figure out how being unaware of Mike's Hard Lemonade makes someone an idiot.

If he bought it from a beer stand, he's an idiot. At the very least, really oblivious.
   35. aleskel Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:30 PM (#2765180)
"let's have some tequila to celebrate!"

"dad, I'm underage!"

"oh, okay, here's a bendy straw"
   36. Mister High Standards Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:31 PM (#2765183)
certainly is if there is no sign posted.


But there is a sign posted... in this case the kid was holding the sign... called the bottle... which has a label which says it is plastic... and if comercia is anything like Boston, or New York, or Arizona, or Tampa or Stl or Seattle or Balitimore or Cleveland or any of the 14 american parks I have been in the guy was carded.

If by chance the guy wasn't carded the security personal can't assume that:
1) The vendor didn't do his dilligence which consists of asking everyone for I.D. regardless of age.
2) The Parent wasn't aware the Mike Hard Lemonaid had booze in it.
3) The sign didn't say hard, so he thought it was a regular lemonaid or the parent wouldnt know what the term means.
4) The parent gave his child a drink without reading the lable which says in plain letters contains alchol.

The security guard should be given a raise for not believing that tom-foolery.

The more I think about I believe his parent rights should be questioneds. I assume they were and he was deemed fit, which is good enough for me. But in no way should that be assumed.
   37. Traderdave Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:33 PM (#2765187)
I'm only 39 and most would say I look that age or a bit younger, and I haven't been carded at a ballgame in YEARS.

Oddly, I get carded at grocery stores occasionally but never at ballgames.
   38. Traderdave Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:37 PM (#2765194)
Oh, and this is a horrible mis-carriage of justice.
   39. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:37 PM (#2765196)
I'm still trying to figure out how being unaware of Mike's Hard Lemonade makes someone an idiot.

If anything, it points to more refined tastes.

Seriously--this story's absurd. The father may be the stereotypical absentminded and/or out-of-touch-with-popular-culture academic (which is a pretty real thing in many cases; I speak as the son of a prof [hell, my dad watches a lot of TV, and he's still pretty not exactly up on this kind of stuff), but I wouldn't say that makes him a bad parent. If there were anything at all in this story to suggest the guy would've gotten his kid a beer, or a glass of whiskey, or something, I'd feel differently--but there's nothing to suggest that.

Maybe I'm just jealous of Leo. I grew up with an absentminded prof of a dad, and I never even got an ill-gotten hard lemonade out of the deal!
   40. JPWF13 Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:38 PM (#2765198)
The more I think about I believe his parent rights should be questioneds.


Oh good god, I PRAY that you are not in a position of authority over anyone, ever.
   41. Charles S. hopes his opening day is b4 opening day Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:39 PM (#2765199)
I would be very surprised if MLB did not immediately decree that all parks that sell Mike's or any other alcoholic fruit drink add the words "contains alcohol" to the signs at the concession stands. Some enterprising young lawyer could certainly find a jury to say that the ballpark was at fault for not properly labelling the alcohol.
   42. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:39 PM (#2765202)
I'm 36, and I almost never get carded anyplace except at places that card everybody.
   43. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:41 PM (#2765206)
Some enterprising young lawyer could certainly find a jury to say that the ballpark was at fault for not properly labelling the alcohol.

Seriously--what if the shoe's on the other foot? In other words--the security guard never sees Leo holding the bottle (so there aren't any legal consequences for dad), but Leo gets mysteriously ill during or after the game from consuming the lemonade. Based on Leo's illness, does dad have a case against the team/ballpark for not exercising proper care in labeling the drink? I think a reasonable argument can be made that he does.

Or does he put his parental rights at risk by even raising the issue...
   44. aleskel Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:44 PM (#2765210)
I find this discussion quite intriguing, mostly because I think it has to be generally recognized that the reason Mike's Hard Lemonade and other fruity, sugary alcoholic drinks even exist is to appeal to underage drinkers, particularly girls. It's amazing how much flak the tobacco industry got for gearing advertisments to teenagers, while the alcohol industry gets off easy.
   45. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:45 PM (#2765214)
or Tampa or Stl or Seattle or Balitimore or Cleveland or any of the 14 american parks I have been in the guy was carded.

Unlike you, he doesn't appear to be an overweight 14 year old.
   46. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:46 PM (#2765215)
The article has a picture of a sign that may be from the stand in question, and it says "mike's lemonade", not "mike's hard lemonade".
   47. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:54 PM (#2765229)
The article has a picture of a sign that may be from the stand in question, and it says "mike's lemonade", not "mike's hard lemonade".


It also has beer that's cheaper than lemonade. Like I thought, it only sells alcoholic beverages. (And peanuts.)
   48. Spahn Insane, stimulus-funded BurlyMan™ Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:54 PM (#2765230)
The article has a picture of a sign that may be from the stand in question, and it says "mike's lemonade", not "mike's hard lemonade".

That's what I'm talking about re. the *ballpark*'s failure to properly advertise the drink--the drink itself, obviously, is labeled (even if somewhat deceptively) by the manufacturer.

Are the Tigers still owned by Mike Ilitch? If so, I can see someone who doesn't know the world of crappy alcoholic beverages reading that sign as describing a "Comerica creation" or something (as in "Mike [Ilitch's] Lemonade"). And even if not, "Mike's Lemonade" certainly doesn't accurately describe the drink in and of itself.
   49. Cowboy Popup Posted: May 01, 2008 at 03:56 PM (#2765236)
and if comercia is anything like Boston, or New York, or Arizona, or Tampa or Stl or Seattle or Balitimore or Cleveland or any of the 14 american parks I have been in the guy was carded.

I've been to 4 ballgames this year, all in New York, and I was carded once out of the 12 or so times I bought beer. I'm 23 and I am carded often enough at bars and delis and anywhere else I buy booze, especially when I'm clean shaven.
   50. Charles S. hopes his opening day is b4 opening day Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:00 PM (#2765242)
Seriously--what if the shoe's on the other foot? In other words--the security guard never sees Leo holding the bottle (so there aren't any legal consequences for dad), but Leo gets mysteriously ill during or after the game from consuming the lemonade. Based on Leo's illness, does dad have a case against the team/ballpark for not exercising proper care in labeling the drink? I think a reasonable argument can be made that he does.


Opportunity is knocking, Retro. You're never going to make your millions with all that do-gooder #### you're doing now. 30% of that pizza man's fortune would make one heck of a nestegg.
   51. Dizzypaco Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:03 PM (#2765245)
It also has beer that's cheaper than lemonade. Like I thought, it only sells alcoholic beverages. (And peanuts.)

You're right. Those must have been alchoholic peanuts, given that only alcohol is sold at beer stands. Funny, I've never had alcoholic peanuts before.
   52. Francoeur Sans Gages (AlouGoodbye) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:04 PM (#2765247)
Knowingly giving your child alcohol is a crime.
Is it? Even in private at home? Up to what age?
   53. Traderdave Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:05 PM (#2765249)
I find this discussion quite intriguing, mostly because I think it has to be generally recognized that the reason Mike's Hard Lemonade and other fruity, sugary alcoholic drinks even exist is to appeal to underage drinkers, particularly girls. It's amazing how much flak the tobacco industry got for gearing advertisments to teenagers, while the alcohol industry gets off easy.


2 reasons:

1) Smoking has fallen out of fashion while drinking has not. Lawyers & lawmakers quit smoking, but they still tipple.

2) The alcohol industry hasn't stonewalled like the tobacco industry did. Boozemakers got on board early with the "enjoy responsibly" thing & didn't testify under oath that their product isn't addictive.
   54. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:06 PM (#2765251)
It also has beer that's cheaper than lemonade. Like I thought, it only sells alcoholic beverages. (And peanuts.)

The sign lists four items: canned beer, mike's lemonade, mike's cranberry, and peanuts. To the outsider, one quarter of it's products are alcoholic.

Its not like the sign said beer, beer, vodka, whiskey, beer, beer, beer beer, daiquiris, beer, beer, beer and mike's lemonade.
   55. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:11 PM (#2765258)
Funny, I've never had alcoholic peanuts before.

You haven't been to some of the bars I have.

The sign lists four items

And two of them are more expensive than beer. If you saw a sign that had beer cheaper than Steve's Orange Juice, what you think about the orange juice?
   56. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:12 PM (#2765259)
The more I think about I believe his parent rights should be questioneds.



Oh good god, I PRAY that you are not in a position of authority over anyone, ever.


I'll second, third, and fourth that.

You're right. Those must have been alchoholic peanuts, given that only alcohol is sold at beer stands. Funny, I've never had alcoholic peanuts before.


But what if the sign said George's Chicken?
   57. Charles S. hopes his opening day is b4 opening day Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:12 PM (#2765260)
Its not like the sign said beer, beer, vodka, whiskey, beer, beer, beer beer, daiquiris, beer, beer, beer and mike's lemonade.

You'd almost have to have an extra inning game to cover all of that.
   58. Dizzypaco Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:13 PM (#2765262)
If you saw a sign that had beer cheaper than Steve's Orange Juice, what you think about the orange juice?

If I'm not at the ballpark, I question it. At the ballpark, anything goes when it comes to pricing. I'm not surprised by anything. You clearly have not been to Fenway Park.
   59. Random Transaction Generator Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:14 PM (#2765263)
If you saw a sign that had beer cheaper than Steve's Orange Juice, what you think about the orange juice?

That it was some ####### fantastic orange juice?
   60. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:20 PM (#2765275)
But what if the sign said George's Chicken?


That would be one disgusting drink.

You clearly have not been to Fenway Park.

Hate to break it to you, but I have.
   61. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:22 PM (#2765280)
And two of them are more expensive than beer. If you saw a sign that had beer cheaper than Steve's Orange Juice, what you think about the orange juice?

So are you suggesting that one can assume that any item at any ballpark that is more expensive than beer is alcoholic?
   62. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:24 PM (#2765281)
So are you suggesting that one can assume that any item at any ballpark that is more expensive than beer is alcoholic?


No, I'm saying that when you see freaking lemonade that costs more than beer at a ballpark, that's a warning sign.
   63. Kurt Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:27 PM (#2765289)
If you saw a sign that had beer cheaper than Steve's Orange Juice, what you think about the orange juice?

I'd think it was organic, or from Whole Foods, or had a lot more volume than A CAN of beer.
   64. Dizzypaco Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:28 PM (#2765290)
No, I'm saying that when you see freaking lemonade that costs more than beer at a ballpark, that's a warning sign.

It would if you know that alcoholic lemonade exists. If you don't, like this guy didn't, how would it be a warning sign? If I saw orange juice sold for more than the beer, I'd just assume it was fresh squeezed, not that it was alcoholic. Especially given they didn't advertise it as alcoholic.
   65. Mister High Standards Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:28 PM (#2765291)
I'm 36, and I almost never get carded anyplace except at places that card everybody.


Which happens to be the ball park.
   66. Kyle S at work Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:29 PM (#2765292)
1) The company that makes Mike's was founded in 1999.
2) Mike's is targeted at the college/young adult market.
3) Ratte was 38 when the company was founded - already outside their age demographic.
4) If this happened to me and Atlanta PD tried to take away my daughter, they would have to incapacitate me first.
   67. Kurt Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:30 PM (#2765293)
The real question is, has the guy heard of Yoko Ono?
   68. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:30 PM (#2765294)
or had a lot more volume than A CAN of beer.


Then a soda should be like 10 bucks.

or from Whole Foods

This I can agree with.
   69. Mister High Standards Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:32 PM (#2765297)
Oh good god, I PRAY that you are not in a position of authority over anyone, ever.


I said questioned. Which it was. I didn't say he should lose his children. I didn't say anything of the sort. It seems to me, that the possiablity exhists that he was very careless in regard to the precieved well being of his child.
   70. Justin T drives a crooked hoss Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:33 PM (#2765301)
Which happens to be the ball park.

Have you read the comments from people who don't get carded at the park? I'm 27, wasn't carded in Oakland two weeks ago.

But I know, every other person at every other location in the world has had the exact same experience as you have in a similar situation.

Same goes for Dr. Love, a true idiot.
   71. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:35 PM (#2765304)
I was with a group with a 16 year old friend in Comiskey Park in about 1990 and he bought about 15 beers that day without being carded. Then again, he had a lebron/oden age thing going.
   72. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:35 PM (#2765305)
It would if you know that alcoholic lemonade exists. If you don't, like this guy didn't, how would it be a warning sign? If I saw orange juice sold for more than the beer, I'd just assume it was fresh squeezed, not that it was alcoholic.


Would you just assume it was, or would you ask?
   73. Kurt Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:35 PM (#2765306)
Then a soda should be like 10 bucks.

Sure, if the ingredients to make soda cost as much as those for fresh squeezed orange juice, or lemonade. Next time you're at the store, feel free to price out half gallon of orange juice, and a 2 liter bottle of soda.
   74. Dizzypaco Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:36 PM (#2765307)
I said questioned. Which it was. I didn't say he should lose his children. I didn't say anything of the sort. It seems to me, that the possiablity exhists that he was very careless in regard to the precieved well being of his child.

Oh my goodness, I think I actually agree. I don't have any problem with him being questioned by security personnel at the ballpark. Its the taking away of the child that's absolutely horrifying.
   75. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:37 PM (#2765312)
Same goes for Dr. Love, a true idiot.

Aw, how sweet.
   76. Cowboy Popup Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:37 PM (#2765313)
or would you ask?

You would ask a vendor in a baseball stadium why the price of something they were selling was so high?
   77. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:38 PM (#2765318)
I'm 36, and I almost never get carded anyplace except at places that card everybody.



Which happens to be the ball park.


Sheesh!

Since YOU have been carded every time at ballparks, everyone must therefore be carded every time, right? How happy you must be in your smug self assurance that your experiences are exactly the same as everyone elses. Hey, here's a thought. Maybe the guy was carded but he ordered himself a beer and his son a lemonade. Ever think of that? Oh right, the article didn't mention if he ordered a beer, and thus we must assume he didn't.

The petty assumptions and subsequent leaps of illogic are astounding.
   78. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:39 PM (#2765320)
"Not every park is like that though."

Dunno. We mostly just have the one team in town, since the Player's League folded.
   79. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:42 PM (#2765323)
Which happens to be the ball park.

Have you read the comments from people who don't get carded at the park? I'm 27, wasn't carded in Oakland two weeks ago.

But I know, every other person at every other location in the world has had the exact same experience as you have in a similar situation.

Same goes for Dr. Love, a true idiot.


I was at the Trop last weekend and I witnessed dozens of beer sales near me by vendors walking the stands, and not once was anyone carded.
   80. Fly should without a doubt be number !!!!! Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:42 PM (#2765325)
You clearly have not been to Fenway Park.

Hate to break it to you, but I have.


Well, then you'd know that there is plenty of soda available at Fenway for just 50 cents less than beer. I'm not saying it exists at Fenway, but a fresh squeezed lemonade in a bucket for more than $6? That seems totally possible to me. I've paid $5 for fresh squeezed lemonade at a street fair. It's criminal, but it's the going rate, and sometimes you just want lemonade.

http://flickr.com/photos/carlb/33559108/sizes/l/

Or this soda more expensive than beer in Anaheim:

http://flickr.com/photos/stincil/177515022/

Or Seahawks Stadium in Seattle:

http://flickr.com/photos/dkcomet/443228711/sizes/o/

It's not unreasonable to not be put off by the prices.

And my god, it's a baseball game. No matter how neglectful you are as a parent, you're not going to get your kid intentionally loaded at a Tigers game. It just doesn't make sense. It's a clear mistake, and one that he should probably have been slightly publicly embarassed over by a talking to from stadium security, just so he wakes up a bit when buying stuff for his kid. It's simply not a DSS issue. His kids shouldn't be taken away.
   81. Mister High Standards Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:44 PM (#2765327)
It is meaningless if you ARE carded at the ballpark. The policy is, everyone is carded. As all of those places have signs that say they card everyone. My point wasn't that the man was carded, though based on my experience he likly was. My point is that it is unlikly that ths SECURITY GUARD should take his story on face value since:

1) He was supposedly carded. For him not to be you need to assume someone else didn't do their job.
2) That he has his head in the sand and didn't know that Mikes was booze.
3) That he didn't look at the label that clearly states Mikes is booze.
4) That he didn't recognize that the price was considerbaly higher than a comperable beverage.


Assuming all of that gives the someone caught red handed way too much benifit of the doubt without escalation to the proper authories.

Anyone who takes the above at face value without being reasonably concerned about the legitimacy of the claims is pretty damn naive in my estimation.

It looks to me like the right thing happened all the way around. The guy didn't lose custody, but it was investigated thoroughly. My concern isn't for the man, its for the boy.
   82. JJ1986 Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:47 PM (#2765332)
I'm 21, look 21, and I haven't been carded at a ballpark in a year. That's only 4 parks, Shea, Yankee Stadium, RFK and Nationals Park, but it is 15-20 games.
   83. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:47 PM (#2765333)
Well, then you'd know that there is plenty of soda available at Fenway for just 50 cents less than beer.


I only went to the beer stands and kettle corn stand.

And my god, it's a baseball game. No matter how neglectful you are as a parent, you're not going to get your kid intentionally loaded at a Tigers game. It just doesn't make sense. It's a clear mistake, and one that he should probably have been slightly publicly embarassed over by a talking to from stadium security, just so he wakes up a bit when buying stuff for his kid. It's simply not a DSS issue. His kids shouldn't be taken away.

Agreed.
   84. Mister High Standards Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:47 PM (#2765334)
1) He was supposedly carded. For him not to be you need to assume someone else didn't do their job.
2) That he has his head in the sand and didn't know that Mikes was booze.
3) That he didn't look at the label that clearly states Mikes is booze.
4) That he didn't recognize that the price was considerbaly higher than a comperable beverage.


Now if you tell me:
1) The guard checked and the man wasnt carded. (the vender wouldn't admit it)
3) The drink was served in a solo cup or something without a label. (it wasn't because the kid was seen drinking it from an identifiable container.)
4) The prices were vastly similar

Then I would agree that it went too far.
   85. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:48 PM (#2765338)
Still, I think the law is well intentioned and has the best inrerests of society behind it. And just because this is probably the .0001 percent of cases where it failed, I don't think throwing the whole process out is the right answer.
The 99% of times when CPS screws up gives the other 1% of the time a bad reputation.
   86. tfbg9 Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:49 PM (#2765340)
Has anyone else thrown out there the non-zero chance that the guy did the entire thing on purpose to set up a chain of inevitable (hopefully) events leading to a very lucrative lawsuit against the Tigers?

Or am I the only cynic here on this matter?
   87. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:50 PM (#2765345)
Or am I the only cynic here on this matter?
I dunno...that seems like a pretty Rube Goldberg way to set-up a lawsuit that he's hardly assured of winning.
   88. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:50 PM (#2765346)
Its not like the sign said beer, beer, vodka, whiskey, beer, beer, beer beer, daiquiris, beer, beer, beer and mike's lemonade.
Nicely played!

And two of them are more expensive than beer. If you saw a sign that had beer cheaper than Steve's Orange Juice, what you think about the orange juice?
Agree with others that at the ballpark, anything goes, so why not? Especially if the beer is some junk like Miller Lite.

I grew up with an absentminded prof of a dad, and I never even got an ill-gotten hard lemonade out of the deal!
This is the area where I have had to play a bit of the hypochrite with my boys. My dad would give us a sip of beer since I can remember. I have always loved the taste of beer and whenever he would open one, I would beg for a sip. At least one of my sisters did, too.
We have a picture of me at a picnic at my Uncle Adam and Aunt Rosemary's house holding my first full beer. I was 7. I was so happy that my Dad let me have one. I'm sure I carried that baby around all day, proud as could be. That was Cincinnati in the late 50s, things sure were different.
By the time I was a teen, I wasn't on much of speaking terms with my Dad so asking for a beer was not worth a conversation with him. (It was a pretty brutal time -- I would go out of my way to avoid him so I wouldn't have to talk to him.) By the time I was 19/20, things had mellowed quite a bit and I could ask for a beer occasionally.
Nowadays, there is much more awareness of the costs of teenage drinking and drunk driving. But this being America, we have to go all Puritan. Actually the rules around drinking and driving are pretty reasonable and much of Europe is far more draconian. But teenage drinking, whew. God forbid I give a 17 yo friend of my son a beer.
So in this atmosphere, we have mostly enforced no drinking under our control until 21. If they are away at college, we have told them that they have to make good judgements, we know that they will drink but no driving -- all we can do is tell them caught DUI = no car, same as if they are under our roof.
My oldest, who is now 21 so our only control point is the car, comes home next week for the first time since he turned 21. When we suggested that he join us to see his uncle's band play at a bar, he was psyched. He even asked me if I was going to be the Designated Driver. Punk. :)
And last break, we found a funny pipe in our 19yo's pocket. Well, we could only reiterate the driving warning, be smart, yada yada. And yeah, in the interest of non-hypocrisy, we confessed to knowing what the pipe was for and that yeah, we had partaken in our day. And yes, we inhaled.
   89. Traderdave Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:51 PM (#2765348)
It looks to me like the right thing happened all the way around. The guy didn't lose custody, but it was investigated thoroughly. My concern isn't for the man, its for the boy.


He temporarily lost custody.

And I'm concerned for the boy too -- because of trauma inflicted on him by this Kafka-esque horror.
   90. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:51 PM (#2765350)
My point is that it is unlikly that ths SECURITY GUARD should take his story on face value since:

1) He was supposedly carded. For him not to be you need to assume someone else didn't do their job.


You expect a security guard to think every person that bought alcohol was carded? We all know they aren't, so why should the guard?
   91. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:52 PM (#2765352)
My point is that it is unlikly that ths SECURITY GUARD should take his story on face value since:

1) He was supposedly carded. For him not to be you need to assume someone else didn't do their job.
2) That he has his head in the sand and didn't know that Mikes was booze.
3) That he didn't look at the label that clearly states Mikes is booze.
4) That he didn't recognize that the price was considerbaly higher than a comperable beverage.


Now if you tell me:
1) The guard checked and the man wasnt carded. (the vender wouldn't admit it)
3) The drink was served in a solo cup or something without a label. (it wasn't because the kid was seen drinking it from an identifiable container.)
4) The prices were vastly similar

Then I would agree that it went too far.


Or, you know, it could just as easily have gone like this:

1) Guy orders a beer for himself and a Mikes Lemonade for his son
2) Guy is carded.
3) Guy hands the lemonade to his son without inspecting the label.
   92. Dizzypaco Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2765353)
MHS, are you saying that it was okay to take his kid away for a couple of days? I'm with you if he's questioned at the ballpark. But if you think its okay to take a seven year old child away from a parent based on this set of circumstances, even for a couple of days, then I'm in agreement that you should never have authority over anyone, ever.
   93. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:53 PM (#2765354)
Has anyone else thrown out there the non-zero chance that the guy did the entire thing on purpose to set up a chain of inevitable (hopefully) events leading to a very lucrative lawsuit against the Tigers?


You watched Law & Order last night too?
   94. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:54 PM (#2765356)
Has anyone else thrown out there the non-zero chance that the guy did the entire thing on purpose to set up a chain of inevitable (hopefully) events leading to a very lucrative lawsuit against the Tigers?
Or that the Clemens - McCready mess was uncovered the day before the Mind-stress was heading back into the studio?

Okay, mine is plausible, yours if non-zero is taken to about the 7th decimal point. :)
   95. Dizzypaco Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:55 PM (#2765357)
Has anyone else thrown out there the non-zero chance that the guy did the entire thing on purpose to set up a chain of inevitable (hopefully) events leading to a very lucrative lawsuit against the Tigers?

Or am I the only cynic here on this matter?


As the parent of a seven year old son, I'd say almost definitely. You are the only cynic here on this matter. I'm guessing you've never been a parent.
   96. tfbg9 Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:58 PM (#2765361)
I'm guessing you've never been a parent.


I am a parent. I didn't say the guy would be anything less than a bad guy to do it...sheesh!
   97. Mister High Standards Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:58 PM (#2765364)
Miserlou, that is the first good point that has been made. I conceed, the situation could have gone too far, but it is unlikly for the security gaurd to know it.

You expect a security guard to think every person that bought alcohol was carded? We all know they aren't, so why should the guard?


No, I expect everyone to act rationally. I have little reason to believe that everyone here didn't. The father really needs to be more consious of events around him. I'm a big believer in personal responsiability.
   98. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: May 01, 2008 at 04:58 PM (#2765365)
4) That he didn't recognize that the price was considerbaly higher than a comperable beverage.


4) The prices were vastly similar



Again, you're hung up on prices. Since when do prices at a ballpark have to be logical? Last week I spent $6 for a large tub of popcorn, but only $8 for a large basket of chicken breast strips and fries, a meal that would have cost the same or more at TGI Fridays. Should I have assumed the popcorn was laced with some controlled substance?
   99. Dr Love Posted: May 01, 2008 at 05:03 PM (#2765371)
No, I expect everyone to act rationally. I have little reason to believe that everyone here didn't.


The kid got placed in foster care because his dad made a mistake. Not everyone acted rationally.
   100. Traderdave Posted: May 01, 2008 at 05:07 PM (#2765376)
The kid got placed in foster care because his dad made a SIMPLE, HONEST, REGRETTABLE BUT UNDERSTANDABLE mistake. Not everyone acted rationally.

Fixed.
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