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Wednesday, September 05, 2018

Did Todd Frazier trick the umpire?

The linked video review seems to indicate that he didn’t only not catch the ball, but had a non official baseball in his glove that he showed the umpire.

stevegamer Posted: September 05, 2018 at 08:26 AM | 34 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: foul balls, mets, trick play

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   1. Rennie's Tenet Posted: September 05, 2018 at 09:00 AM (#5738814)
Does the video just show that there were two balls in the vicinity, or does it prove something and it's just too early for me to see it?
   2. Lyford Posted: September 05, 2018 at 09:14 AM (#5738820)
I don't see any evidence of him not catching it. It was clearly in his glove as he went over the fence. Clearly. If it came out at any point, I haven't seen video evidence of it.

This sounds like noise to me...
   3. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: September 05, 2018 at 09:18 AM (#5738824)
I don't see anything conclusive there at all. He definitely knocked over a bag of some kind of balls but that's not proof of anything. Other than the one guy down the line none of the Dodger fans are doing anythign to indicate he dropped the ball. The one fan right next to him picks up a baseball and hands it to the woman he's with but doesn't do anything to indicate that Frazier didn't catch the ball.
   4. bobm Posted: September 05, 2018 at 09:21 AM (#5738827)
For 2 years @ $8.5M, Did Todd Frazier trick the umpire Mets?


FTF the headline writer
   5. Swoboda is freedom Posted: September 05, 2018 at 10:38 AM (#5738876)
I don't see any evidence of him not catching it. It was clearly in his glove as he went over the fence. Clearly. If it came out at any point, I haven't seen video evidence of it.

Even if it did come out, it is not a catch? He had it in his possession, took a couple of short steps, then fell.
   6. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: September 05, 2018 at 10:46 AM (#5738881)
No it's not a catch. Unlike the NFL and it's hyperprecise "take two steps, make a football move, acknowledge the girl in the third row, inhale once and exhale at least half a breath" catch rules MLB uses a very simple "voluntary release" standard. In other words the player has to demonstrate control for the out to be recorded. For example, a couple years ago Hanley Ramirez got injured on a play where he caught the ball, took several steps then hit the wall. He dropped the ball when he hit the wall and the umps ruled it wasn't voluntary. While I was annoyed as a Red Sox fan I thought the call was correct.
   7. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 05, 2018 at 10:49 AM (#5738883)
I don't see any video evidence of anything. I see speculation.
   8. Panik on the streets of London (Trout! Trout!) Posted: September 05, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5738884)
For 2 years @ $8.5M, Did Todd Frazier trick the umpire Mets?


FTF the headline writer


What's the matter with Frazier? On pace for about 2.5 war, good defense, decent power. Typical everyday player. 8.5 mil/year is not a terrible price for a league average player.
   9. PreservedFish Posted: September 05, 2018 at 10:55 AM (#5738891)
It's a great price, actually. Frazier is perfectly acceptable at what he does.
   10. villageidiom Posted: September 05, 2018 at 11:01 AM (#5738897)
Even if it did come out, it is not a catch? He had it in his possession, took a couple of short steps, then fell.

According to MLB, no. 5.09(a)(1):
A batter is out when his fair or foul fly ball (other than a foul tip) is legally caught by a fielder. A catch is the act of a fielder in getting secure possession in his hand or glove of a ball in flight and firmly holding it; providing he does not use his cap, protector, pocket or any other part of his uniform in getting possession. It is not a catch, however, if simultaneously or immediately following his contact with the ball, he collides with a player, or with a wall, or if he falls down, and as a result of such collision or falling, drops the ball.

At 0:25 in the video at the top of the linked page, you can see some other ball of some kind that had been under the green bag. That ball falls over with Frazier. If you go back to 0:12, you can see a guy in a white Turner jersey pick up a ball from the ground and hand it to the woman next to him, who looks at it. Shortly after, the green bag is also handed back to the same woman.

If you go to 1:20, you'll see Frazier come out of the seats, give a glove tap to Rosario, go to reach for the ball, take his hand out of the glove without the ball, wave his glove, then take the ball out and immediately toss it into the stands. With that being the first out of the inning, it's highly uncommon that a player would toss the ball into the stands. The notion that the ball wasn't in fact the game ball is plausible, even if unlikely.
   11. bunyon Posted: September 05, 2018 at 11:19 AM (#5738919)
VI, if the ball wasn't in his glove, he had to have palmed another ball and kept it palmed for the duration of the play. I doubt a skilled magician could've kept a penny palmed throughout that play. There was a ball in his glove when he came out of the stands. That doesn't prove it was the game ball, but there is no reason to assume it isn't, either.

If he dropped it, he almost certainly just put it right back in his glove before the ump got over there. I could believe that and there was one fan who started to applaud the catch but then waved a safe sign. So, sure, Frazier may well have lost the ball. But he didn't have some other mysterious ball there.

As to throwing it in the stands, they do that a lot after going in the stands. Sort of a thank you and apology.
   12. PreservedFish Posted: September 05, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5738926)
I think that he might have tossed the rubber ball elsewhere.
   13. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: September 05, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5738927)

VI, if the ball wasn't in his glove, he had to have palmed another ball and kept it palmed for the duration of the play.


No, as the video shows he just happened to land on a ball that fell with him into the stands. The suggestion is that that ball is the one he gave to the umps.

It's clear that a fan in the front row ends up with a ball. The question is: is that the baseball, or the other ball that was knocked down by Frazier?
   14. The Interdimensional Council of Rickey!'s Posted: September 05, 2018 at 11:34 AM (#5738935)
The video of Frazier talking to teammates in the dugout afterwards indicates strongly that he fooled the ump with the rubber ball.
   15. Tin Angel Posted: September 05, 2018 at 12:08 PM (#5738956)
The video of Frazier talking to teammates in the dugout afterwards indicates strongly that he fooled the ump with the rubber ball.


Yeah, he basically admitted it on his Twitter account.
   16. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: September 05, 2018 at 12:20 PM (#5738961)
The video of Frazier talking to teammates in the dugout afterwards indicates strongly that he fooled the ump with the rubber ball.

Yeah, he basically admitted it on his Twitter account.

Or maybe he was just mocking that SNY announcer's idiotic "exposé". I sure know that that's what I would've done.
   17. Lassus Posted: September 05, 2018 at 12:31 PM (#5738962)
Yeah, that was a painful SNY moment, IMO.
   18. bunyon Posted: September 05, 2018 at 01:07 PM (#5738975)
As I said, maybe he dropped it. But, if he did, there is no need for a "second" ball. All he has to do is pick up the dropped ball and put it in his glove. The idea that he carried a second ball throughout the play is silly. And if he's picking up a ball from the floor, he'd pick up the one he dropped.

Villageidiom was also talking about how he took his hand out of the glove but...what does that have to do with anything? He clearly had a ball in the glove.

Like I say, maybe he dropped it. But I don't see how or why a second ball needs to be invoked. If anything, the second ball being there makes me doubt the fans saying he dropped it because they would have seen that second ball, rather than the ball in the glove.
   19. PreservedFish Posted: September 05, 2018 at 01:25 PM (#5738997)
Bunyon, you seem confused about what happened. They're saying that after Frazier knocked into the stands, and as everyone's view was obscured, there were two balls on the ground, and as it was a bit chaotic, who knows which way they were rolling. Frazier popped one into his glove, showed it to the ump, and then realized he had picked up the wrong ball. Or, he knew all the time. Maybe the real ball was out of reach. Or just further away from his glove. Doesn't really matter. He had to do it almost instantly, and in a freak accident, it's possible that the second ball in the area, the rubber ball, was the one closest to his glove.
   20. bunyon Posted: September 05, 2018 at 01:40 PM (#5739006)
And I'm saying there is zero evidence for this.
   21. PreservedFish Posted: September 05, 2018 at 01:45 PM (#5739011)
Everyone agrees that there's no convincing evidence that it truly did happen, but in #18 you seemed to be arguing that there was no reason to even imagine that it happened, which is just as incorrect. It might have happened.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: September 05, 2018 at 01:48 PM (#5739013)

Everyone agrees that there's no convincing evidence that it truly did happen, but in #18 you seemed to be arguing that there was no reason to even imagine that it happened, which is just as incorrect. It might have happened.


And it's possible he was mocking SNY's report with the tweet, but I don't think that should be the default assumption.

   23. PreservedFish Posted: September 05, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5739017)
The SNY reporter was a real dolt, but how could he be sure that it was a child's rubber ball if he didn't have a source down at the action? He's either even more of a dickwad than we expect, or he did some reporting that he weirdly didn't unveil.
   24. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: September 05, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5739019)
Guys it's all good, we have replay so there will never be controversy again.
   25. Rennie's Tenet Posted: September 05, 2018 at 02:49 PM (#5739053)
Frazier fell with his hip right in the lap of the nice lady. For the notion to work, both balls would have to switch places, with the real one moving toward No. 10, and the fake one moving away from him.

   26. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: September 05, 2018 at 02:51 PM (#5739054)
And I'm saying there is zero evidence for this.


There is evidence -- immediately after the play, before Frazier throws the ball into the stands, one of the fans hands a baseball to their friend -- where did that baseball come from?
   27. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 05, 2018 at 02:52 PM (#5739055)
It's a great price, actually. Frazier is perfectly acceptable at what he does.


Totally, he's been good for the White Sox (helped net Rutherford), good for the Yankees and now good for the Mets. He's a solid 2-3 WAR starter that is currently underpaid.
   28. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 05, 2018 at 04:27 PM (#5739162)

The SNY reporter was a real dolt, but how could he be sure that it was a child's rubber ball if he didn't have a source down at the action? He's either even more of a dickwad than we expect, or he did some reporting that he weirdly didn't unveil.

Right, why do people keep saying there was a "rubber ball"? On Twitter, it looks like the woman who was sitting in the front row posted a photo of her two kids each holding an autographed baseball at the game - I assume it was one of those.
   29. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 05, 2018 at 04:34 PM (#5739167)

There is evidence -- immediately after the play, before Frazier throws the ball into the stands, one of the fans hands a baseball to their friend -- where did that baseball come from?

It could have been the alleged "rubber ball" that was sitting beneath the green bag.

As for Frazier, after a solid first month, he hit .191 with a .572 OPS from May-July before going on the DL, and I think was viewed as a disappointment by the fans at that stage. He's been pretty good again since coming back (.806 OPS) but a lot of fans probably aren't paying attention anymore.
   30. Perry Posted: September 06, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5739657)
Frazier has now copped to the trickery.
   31. PreservedFish Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:03 AM (#5739672)
When's the last time a player corrected an umpire to his own detriment?
   32. bunyon Posted: September 06, 2018 at 11:13 AM (#5739690)
@30: Huh. Well, he didn't catch it. I'd be pretty pissed if I was the ump that he would admit it and I'm surprised he did.

If I'm an ump and he ever makes another catch I can't exactly see I call safe and let replay switch it if necessary.
   33. villageidiom Posted: September 06, 2018 at 12:29 PM (#5739843)
Villageidiom was also talking about how he took his hand out of the glove but...what does that have to do with anything? He clearly had a ball in the glove.
He came out of the stands with a ball in his glove. Like any player who emerges from the stands with the ball after making a catch he reached to his glove to get the ball to throw it back in. Then he stopped and took his hand away. Then he motions with the ball in his glove, takes the ball out and immediately tosses it into the stands.

Possibilities include:

1. As he reached into the glove reflexively, he stopped because he realized he couldn't throw a fake ball back in play. Knowing he had to dispose of it, he took it out and tossed it into the stands, but not before calling attention to the fact that he had the ball.

2. He's a dolt whose right hand has a mind of its own.

That's what I meant by it. I apologize for choosing brevity over clarity.
   34. frannyzoo Posted: September 06, 2018 at 04:23 PM (#5740117)
Having been a daily Mets fan this year, I can report this is by far the greatest accomplishment by Frazier this year, a sentiment I think he would agree with. Tremendous, and something that makes me proud to be a Mets fan. Which, this year deGrom aside, is difficult.

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