Funny definitely isn’t the word I’d use, but it’s certainly odd that on the day where Brett Lawrie is declared a burgeoning icon in the city’s gay community, we might have a related incident on our hands, of a seriously ugly and unfortunate nature.
Above we have an image of Yunel Escobar taken on Saturday, which has been posted on Flickr by frequent Twitterer @James_in_TO. On the Flickr page he writes:
For those whose Spanish isn’t fluent, have never seen Scarface or fail at google, Yunel’s eyeblack “TU ERE MARICON” translates to “You’re a faggot”. There are some small Spanish locales where it translates to “pussy” not “faggot” but that’s a very small possibility.
Ugh.
Now, to be entirely clear, I don’t speak Spanish, so I’m entirely taking this at face value and could absolutely be wrong about the interpretation or the context. I’ve already received a tweet from @BanditDeW, who explains, “All the latin players I ever played with used that as a generic curse word. Not a slur directed at a specific class.”
Repoz
Posted: September 17, 2012 at 05:33 PM |
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A lot of non-latin Americans also use "bundle of sticks" as a generic curse word. But doesn't it get its "curse" power *because* it's anti-gay? It could easily be the same with the spanish epithet.
you beat me to it--I was going to mention that
When I call someone a "faggot", I'm not actually making the statement that they are a man who has sex with other men. Rather, I'm saying that men who have sex with other men have some fundamentally negative attribute, and the person I'm calling a "faggot" shares those negative attributes.
I hope that Yunel Escobar is a good person who did a dumb thing, and comes out and says "I now understand that I should have written 'TU ERE PENDEJO'" in my eyeblack."
What I wanna hear more about is this:
I assume this means Spanish-speaking, because Escobar is not Spanish. Wikipedia says Cuba is one of the places where it means "faggot".
What troubles me most is that it should be "tu eres," not "tu ere." Shouldn't it?
Also:
I don't see why that's "possibly worse," but, hey.
Nice to see Keith Law has found a new way of embarrassing himself. He's quite versatile in that regard.
Maybe Keith was offended because he's gay. Who knows?
You don't get to decide what is and isn't offensive to other people.
If it's true that a teammate wrote it and Yunel went with it, then I suppose that makes Yunel less ignorant and/or hateful, and more dumb. One would also recall that Yunel was dumped by Atlanta for never-entirely-explained "chemistry" concerns, and wonder how friendly this "prank" was. (He's not playing at all well this season either, although he was good last year.)
And, here's the Lawrie article. It'd be interesting to hear his reaction.
No I don't, but if you want an action taken based on you "being offended" then I get to decide if you are being stupid or not. Racism exists, homophobia exists, they are when people are denied jobs, loans or anything else that affects their life in a real way. We cheapen these concepts and basically 'cry wolf' when stupid stuff like this get thrown in that same bucket. Here's how we handle this as a society: We all say, "Wow, Yuni's kind of an #######. I think less of him". Then you know what we do? We go on with our day. It's not that big of a deal. People being offended or pretending to be offended is not a showstopper folks.
The poor conjugation seems to support the idea that this was a teammate pranking Yunel. One who doesn't speak spanish or speaks it poorly.
Wouldn't surprise me if it was the aforementioned Lawrie, tbph.
I pretty much agree with Dirk.
With that said, it would be incredibly odd if Escobar wrote this himself to make a statement to just about anyone.
No we don't. People get fired/disciplined/suspended all the time for this sort of thing. It's not considered acceptable behavior in any workplace.
Robert, I'm glad you're such a fine and tolerant fellow. For myself, I'm never quite sure how intolerant to be of others' intolerance. For MLB, there's a real desire to keep receiving money from gay fans, so the calculus is all the more complicated (especially since they also want the bucks from old-fashioned ########, I suppose.)
This. I have to remember this statement so when somebody inevitably trots out the "you don't get to decide what I'm offended by" line I'll trot this out as my response.
Barry Bonds made some statements about whitie and I and millions of others kept on giving MLB money. MLB is going to be fine if they do virtually nothing about this. Gays may be gay but that doesn't mean they are a bunch of sissies that get their panties in a bunch over the silliest thing.
The missing "s" actually makes it more likely it was Escobar (or maybe Hechavarria), as Cubans are famous for dropping the "s" when they speak.
++
Agree (although I don't know much about Cuban Spanish).
However.
The Jays are a major league team. They have a fanbase and represent a city. If the fanbase and the city finds this offensive, and they do, then that makes it a big thing after all, and Escobar (and any other players who impinge on this story) should certainly have been able to come up with just this same train of thought, and taken steps to see it didn't blow up in just the way that it has. If any kind of repercussions land on anybody, they deserve it.
I think it's because you don't have "First Amendment" rights when you an employee at the workplace.
If you wear a shirt or post a sign at work that your boss doesn't agree with, you can't claim First Amendment rights if he punishes you for it.
Yeah, but this is Canada, it's a whole different ballgame under socialist hegemony.
Yeah, I can understand someone pranking Escobar like this, and I can understand him responding to the prank by saying "Screw you guys, I'm wearing it anyways", but I'm really surprised that no-one said "there's HD cameras everywhere, this'll be all over the Internet if you go out there with that on your face". This is a time where controversy can erupt when a relief pitcher has a dirty hat or spot on his jersey. Escobar playing an entire game with the Spanish word for faggot plastered on his face isn't going to be somehow missed and it really doesn't reflect well on the organization.
Not everybody works in an office.
With that said, is there anyone who actually cares about this? Keep in mind that being concerned since there are other people who may be offended does not count as actually caring.
If it was a teammate prank, I'd have to agree with Shock that the high-strung Lawrie would be a prime suspect IMO.
FWIW (probably nothing) Escobar and two other Jays were late scratches from yesterday's lineup:
The timing's either really suspicious or really unfortunate.
You misunderstand. I'm not thinking that they knew the verb ser and conjugated it poorly; I'm thinking they overheard the phrase "tu eres maricon" somewhere and spelled it wrong.
Holy crap, maybe Mathis is the culprit and they can somehow use this to void his contract.
I can dream.
Not sure how that matters. Employment law applies in all workplaces.
No we don't. People get fired/disciplined/suspended all the time for this sort of thing. It's not considered acceptable behavior in any workplace.
Well right, that's what we currently do. You sort of missed the point. I was speaking of what we should do, in a decent society, where we have goals other than keeping HR departments as large and lawyers as busy as possible.
You mean the people's republic of canada, eh?
As far Escobar goes, he put the stupid eye black on, so whether it was a joke or not, he put it on. I look forward to booing him until he retires or more likely is cut.
I don't know that I'd call a society where casual bigotry is condoned is one I'd call decent. I'm pretty happy that my workplace is pretty clear that it doesn't allow hateful speech. It's certainly a lot less stressful that way.
Now there's certainly a broad range of shitty behavior, and I agree most people should generally let stuff go and others should think for half a second before spewing out whatever crap is in their heads, but writing "you're a faggot" on your face seems clearly over the line to me. I mean, come on.
He obviously wore them, but we don't know that he put them on.
People from Phoenix are Phoenicians!
Absolutely. Entirely possible he doesn't do it in a mirror by himself. Hechavarria or a disillusioned coach could have done it, like Farrell. If you'd seen some of his moves lately you'd know what I mean. Or Lawrie, Canadian honeybadger just don't give a sh!t.
Since we are now on the third lap on this, I'm going to go ahead and conclude that you either didn't fully read or fully understand my original post 16. So I'm going to move on.
And you don't get stressed by the possibility of being fired for any misstep?
The morally superior fear not mere mortals.
No. Avoiding these sorts of "missteps" is not that difficult for an adult with even the slightest bit of common sense.
Re:16
These actions can easily give the impression that gay players, staff, and fans are not welcome in baseball. That has serious and tangible consequences. In recent years the You Can Play program has allied with dozens of NHLers, college and junior hockey players to try to change hockey's homophobic culture and let gay youth know that they can be themselves on the ice and off. It'd be wonderful if baseball did something similar.
I attended Saturday's game with a very close friend who is gay, a ten year old, and an eight year old, who got eye black stickers from the Jr Jays stand. It saddens me they might not feel welcomed or safe at a Jays game. Merely waving this away as the actions of one or more ignorant "bad apples" doesn't cut it when the default setting of team sports is homophobia. We need to change the entire culture of the sport, not pretend this is a personal issue with one or two players. This is an opportunity to make some really positive changes.
I don't know what you do for a living. But what would you think if someone outside of your industry, maybe someone who occasionally buys your company's products, started discussing his personal intent to overhaul the industry culture?
I think I'll let the people actually involved with the business worry about their culture. Changes will continue to take place, but loudmouth outsiders are typically poorly received.
I've played, watched, talked, and written baseball almost my entire life. I don't know what makes me an outsider, exactly. That I don't own the Orioles or play short for the Phillies?
You know, once upon a time there was a security guard in Kansas who argued that baseball teams should make decisions - from what trades to make to what free agents to sign to when to bunt - based on a new set of ideas and metrics. Lots of people called him a loudmouth outsider too. I wonder what happened to that guy and his crazy ideas.
One day in school, we were talking about sin and as youngsters were having a tough time grasping what exactly was a sin or not. The priest set us straight in the simplest, but most elegant, way: "You know when you've sinned; you don't need anyone to tell you."
If you use a racist/sexist/homophobic/whatever remark, you don't do it innocently; it takes the conscious decision that you don't care how badly you hurt someone else. Not using such language is the easiest thing in the world.
This isn't like Chick Fil-A, where ultimately it's just a fried chicken sandwich. You purchase a good, you consume it, your allegiance to them is over. For MLB to work, they need millions of people to make MLB teams and MLB players a part of their life in that weird fandom way. Just on a practical level, MLB can't allow this sort of thing to happen without severe consequences.
Speaking of which...... a friend of my wife's who has an Arts degree, and HR diploma, and 10 years experience managing a retail store (Blockbuster video) recently went through FOUR separate interviews to land a job as an assistant manager at the Gap. Earlier, he had gone through three interviews in an unsuccessful attempt to become a regular salesperson at H&M. It must be nice to work in a field (HR) in which you get to grossly inflate your own importance without ever being reined in. Its one of the least productive professions in the western world.
* respect not available in all areas. Supplies of respect may be limited during certain periods, Ask your Bishop if respect is available in your circumstance. No Jews.
Aww, missed a boxing tangent. I have that fight in my collection and I think I've watched it twice. Seeing a man killed in the ring is always heartbreaking, and I haven't been able to enjoy modern boxing in good conscience in over a decade.
Yes. I care that my baseball team conducts itself like the decent civic institution it is. I care about that very much. As a fan, the team belongs to me (and my fellow fans) moreso than anyone else, and it becomes terribly diluted when its players and employees are allowed to use racist, sexist, homophobic messaging. All I am asking is that the Blue Jays disallow our team from calling people "faggot" or "maricon" in public.
Basically, what Matt said in 59. And also, my gay fellow fans are important to me, but the way you asked the question indicated you didn't think that was important (actually, it is important).
Also, Primey for 65.
All these immensely successful businesses must be monolithically run by people who are either fools or knaves, Rants. But which is it!? We may never know.
Is the Catholic Church perfect? Of course not - no human creation or institution run by humans, is. But that doesn't mean the religion itself isn't based on real and good teachings.
The "No Jews" crack is specifically galling and juvenile (gee, much like the remark that is the basis of this whole thread). The Church has apologized for their behavior towards Jews, time and time again.
I find it deeply ironic that those who are anti-religion are so quick to play the "holier-than-thou" card.
Alluding to what's said above, workplaces have cultures, and not every workplace has a lot of sensitive folks running the show, and moat places you don't gain respect by running to higher authority. Hothouse flowers don't survive in the wild.
LOL.
Having a catholic priest declaring sin as easy to define, is LOL coming from an religion that defines a vast amount of moral behavior as sinful.
People tease each other and make jokes at each others expense because they want to laugh, and often because they want their target to laugh because they like them. They often do so without consideration for how some intangible third party would feel hearing them, and without any desire to hurt that third party.
Some of the best jokes ever stomp all over that line, they use that line to hide their punch line and make it all the more deliciously unexpected. Again, they are jokes, you can enjoy a joke without hating the fictitious persons who are its subjects. if some bigot enjoys the joke because of their bigotry, that's only because they are bigots.
I never have cared about anyone's sexual preference, but spent my younger years on sports teams full of faggot. I never thought the term as meaning your team-mate was gay, it was a more gently dismissive term than #######. Hey faggot, you gonna get off your ass, stop playing with your pud and help us clean up? Try and catch me this time fag. How was that throw? Much better but still a little faggy, dicknose.
I'm sure that some of my teammates were homophobes who used it with ill intent, but also that the majority never did. The use of language, especially English, is never precise. The fact that YOU would only use a word to mean THIS, and that's the only use that's correct GRAMMATICALLY, doesn't mean that's how it's always used by others or that you can accurately pontificate upon what they were thinking when they said it.
The term is "dismissive" because of its association with anti-gay bigotry. It's been experienced by millions of gay people as both an insult and a threat - people who feel free using the word "faggot" may also be the sort of people who will beat you if they discover your sexual orientation, and at the very least they can't be trusted with this information. These threats of violence are becoming less and less a part of the lives of gay Americans, at least in a lot of places, but they were very strong when you were a kid. That language you see as light and fun was probably experienced as not just insulting, but dangerous and threatening.
(This language also continually reinforced the closet, as people believed they couldn't tell their friends on the ballclub about who they were and who they loved. And the closet was again a psychologically shattering experience, having to keep separate the most basic aspects of your life, out of fear of real and physical violence.)
I do agree with you that it has no place whatsoever on a team with a public face, however.
See, this only works if being a "faggot" is something bad; you yourself claim it's "a more gently dismissive term".
I guess I don't. Maybe you should have been more clear. Snarky 2-3 sentence missives probably aren't the best way to communicate with nuance on a complex issues.
Not at all. It's pretty easy.
Would you say it's OK to burn a cross in the front yard of a black person? Or to draw swastikas on a synagogue?
Should I be able to make harassing phone calls to your 10 year old daughter?
There are things a civil society don't (or at least, shouldn't) allow. "All men are created equal, with certain unalienable rights" and all that.
Just as you have every right to think I'm stupid for being offended by Escobar's actions I have just as much right to think you are being ignorant for defending them. If someone doesn't want to be called out for offending a large group of people he should not engage in the offensive behavior in the first place.
If you want to call someone a derogatory name you certainly have that right. Just don't go crying and whining when other people exercise that same right to tell you how ignorant and offensive you are being.
To the contrary: I don't have the right to not be offended, but I do have the right to be offended when someone acts like an a*******.
I think a burning cross on a black person's lawn is pretty clearly covered by other laws, and not really comparable to the generic use of the word maricon. Making harassing phone calls to a 10-year old is not in the same ballpark either. Do you really equate these things?
People have a right to go about their daily lives without being discriminated against, but again, calling someone a faggot is no different than calling someone ugly, or a tub of lard, or a moron. My wife is thin, and she hates always having to put up with mean spirted comments about how thin she is from other women. Never once has she said that calling someone skinny should be illegal.
Do I use language generally considered offensive? Yes, but only when I'm certain I know my audience. I cringe when I hear people dropping f-bombs in front of little kids and old ladies, but that doesn't mean I think it should be illegal to say, write, or broadcast the word ####. Right and wrong will never be captured by legal and illegal, nor should it be.
There's a difference between being offended and being harassed. I wouldn't say it's okay to do any of those things you list, or that any of them should be legal, but I would say that you don't have the right to not be offended. By something that is just offensive and not harassing.
Who's defending Escobar? I just don't believe words should ever be illegal. When I first saw the headline I immediate reaction was that the Jays should release him , but then I read Harhurst's comments and cooled my jets a little, and realized I was in no position to judge. And who's crying and whining? I may get offended from time to time in my daily life, but some comments and criticisms from people I've never met don't really get my hackles up. I'm not a big fan of ad hominen attacks, but I will still defend your right to make them.
I think that's sort of the crux of the issue there. If you're at a workplace and someone calls your wife a skinny b, and treats her like crap a few times, that stinks but she gets over it maybe. If it's a constant, day-in, day-out of that, then that gets into harassment, and of course there's a ton of gray in there.
Who's making that argument?
I'm not sure what your complaint in #80 (which I found whiny, YMMV) is then. I don't think anyone is saying that the word Escobar used should be illegal, just that it's inappropriate.
I probably shouldn't have quoted you in #84 because I was responding mentally to a couple of different posts and just a general tone beyond that.
TDF seemed to say that he felt he had a right to not be offended. Is that not what you took out of #83? I don't see how someone could have that position, yet not feel their should be legislation to prevent it. Most laws are established to protect rights.
EDIT: If I misinterpreted what TDF said, please let me know.
I feel the same way I think TDF does. Maybe "expectation" would be a better word than "right." I wouldn't want certain words to be made illegal, but I also think I should be able to walk around and not have to hear them.
Maybe TDF was saying exactly what you think and does think words should be made illegal but that's not how I interpreted it. I don't want to speak for him though.
Again - a term like "faggot" is only effective as a put-down if there's something wrong with being gay, or if gays are inherently inferior. If you don't think so, why would you use it as a derogatory term? Simply by saying "You're a faggot", you're intentionally offending a class of people.
I really can't believe anyone would argue it's OK to be offensive. Just because something's "legal" doesn't make it the right thing to do.
1. Substitute "n!gger" for "faggot". Do you still agree with your statement?
2. You use the term "faggot" to describe people who aren't gay but act in a way you don't like. Is that the same way you use "ugly", "fat", or "moron"? No, you use those terms to describe people who (rightly or wrongly) you think are ugly, fat, or stupid.
EDIT: Obviously, great minds think alike.
I wonder if the difference isn't whether it's directed at someone or not. Like, if you're out with your family, and you walk past a guy who drops his ice cream on his foot, and the guy yells, out of perfectly understandable frustration, "Mother pus bucket!", you might (or might not!) find that offensive. But if a second guy came right up to you, stood about four feet in front of you, pointed right between your eyes, and said in a menacing tone, "Mother pus bucket!", you would probably find that harassing.
In the case of Escobar, his eyeblack was pretty obviously not directed at anyone in particular, with the theoretically possible exception of Escobar himself.
3 game suspension, his salary during that time is being donated to You Can Play and the GLAAD.
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