Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Thursday, June 14, 2018

Dodgers, Rangers Brawl After Matt Kemp Runs Over Robinson Chirinos

The scuffle began when Kike Hernandez hit a base hit to the opposite field in the bottom of the third, sending Matt Kemp home for the Dodgers. But Kemp ran over Rangers catcher Robinson Chirinos. 

The two nudged each other as they got up and soon Kemp pushed Chirinos who then tried throwing a punch back. The benches cleared as players tried to hold the two apart from each other.

Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 14, 2018 at 01:22 AM | 70 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: blocking the plate, dodgers, fight, fight, fight, matt kemp, rangers, robinson chirinos

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Leroy Kincaid Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:31 AM (#5691876)
Seemed like Chirinos timed it well by moving towards the plate as he caught the ball. Don't think he did anything wrong there. Is there a rule against running into the catcher?
   2. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 07:37 AM (#5691883)
Is there a rule against running into the catcher?


Kemp claimed to not know the rule at all, said he was blocked from sliding, and was worried about reinjuring his ankle. Chrinios was pissed because he said everyone is told before the season what the rule is and Kemp running into him was a surprise. The umpire said Chrinos was blocking, but Kemp gave up any blocking claim he may have had by not sliding.

That confused me, I thought if the ball got to the catcher a good bit before the runner (as I thought was the case here) the catcher was able to be where he wanted, ie no blocking. Maybe the ump didn't think the ball beat Kemp enough?
   3. Swoboda is freedom Posted: June 14, 2018 at 07:58 AM (#5691886)
I think the catcher was also pissed as Kemp seemed to walk into him as he is getting up after the collision.
   4. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 14, 2018 at 08:26 AM (#5691890)
I don't like the new rules at the plate but given that they exist I can't understand how what Kemp did is OK. What gets me about this is Kemp should've just walked away. Fine Chirinos gave him a little shove, hey you just ran the dude over. You took your shot, he took his head let's go on. Instead Kemp kept it going.

And I've got no dog in this fight. Neither team particularly matters to me and I have no particular opinion of the players involved. Hell I don't even like the rule changes on plays at the plate but hey, they exist so there is no reason a catcher should be getting run over. Certainly Chirinos didn't illegally block the plate I don't think. As I understand it once he has the ball he can do that.
   5. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 08:47 AM (#5691897)
And I've got no dog in this fight. Neither team particularly matters to me and I have no particular opinion of the players involved. Hell I don't even like the rule changes on plays at the plate but hey, they exist so there is no reason a catcher should be getting run over. Certainly Chirinos didn't illegally block the plate I don't think. As I understand it once he has the ball he can do that.


I don't think they ever outlawed trucking the catcher. They just outlawed the catcher blocking the plate without the ball, which sent the message that they wanted to get these types of plays out of the game, and has, all things considered, worked very well. But it was still a mistake to leave this in. Kemp's play should not be legal.
   6. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: June 14, 2018 at 08:59 AM (#5691901)
See, I just assumed the other part of the rule not allowing the catchers to not block the plate was that the runners couldn't truck the catchers. I'm actually shocked to hear it isn't.
   7. Tom T Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:00 AM (#5691902)
They just outlawed the catcher blocking the plate without the ball, which sent the message that they wanted to get these types of plays out of the game, and has, all things considered, worked very well. But it was still a mistake to leave this in. Kemp's play should not be legal.


Agreed. The runner should still have an opportunity to make it so that the ball may come out on the tag, but flattening the catcher should not be an option given it isn't an option at any other base. Not quite sure how one defines that cleanly in a written form, but it does seem that excluding Kemp's play, in writing, should not be impossible.
   8. McCoy Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:01 AM (#5691904)
Regardless if whether or not Kemp knows the rules he has a valid point. He's coming to home plate and the catcher is in the basepath. A slide could very well lead to an injury.


Now the third base coach made a horrible decision on that play. Without even know the specifics I knew Kemp was going to be out by a mile as soon as I saw the hit and then saw the cutaway to Kemp rounding third.

Baseball should just make that an automatic out at that point. Something like if the catcher can touch home plate before the runner can enter into the circle he's out or something like that.
   9. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:07 AM (#5691906)
Regardless if whether or not Kemp knows the rules he has a valid point. He's coming to home plate and the catcher is in the basepath. A slide could very well lead to an injury.


Then stop. If the catcher is deemed to be illegitimately blocking the plate, then Kemp will be awarded home (he wasn't here). If the only way he can be safe is by attempting to disembowel the backstop means, as you note, that he shouldn't have been sent.

That the rule still allows him to run through the catcher without consequence is a mistake. That's the only fix needed.
   10. PreservedFish Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:14 AM (#5691911)
That the rule still allows him to run through the catcher without consequence is a mistake. That's the only fix needed.

Would seem to be a difficult thing to judge. The catcher is not blocking the plate until he is. This would compel the runner to slide, even if he doesn't know when the ball will arrive, even though we know that it's slower than just running through the plate, and even though there's no other reason that he should have to slide.

We don't want the default "play at the plate" to be the runner stopping at the last second and hopelessly retreating to third. Or even worse, just giving up.
   11. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:18 AM (#5691914)
As a Rangers fan, I can only hope Chirinos is suspended for the rest of the season.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:20 AM (#5691916)
Would seem to be a difficult thing to judge. The catcher is not blocking the plate until he is. This would compel the runner to slide, even if he doesn't know when the ball will arrive, even though we know that it's slower than just running through the plate, and even though there's no other reason that he should have to slide.

We don't want the default "play at the plate" to be the runner stopping at the last second and hopelessly retreating to third. Or even worse, just giving up.


Require a slide.
   13. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:22 AM (#5691918)
Would seem to be a difficult thing to judge. The catcher is not blocking the plate until he is. This would compel the runner to slide, even if he doesn't know when the ball will arrive, even though we know that it's slower than just running through the plate, and even though there's no other reason that he should have to slide.


The fact that every other league below the major leagues bans running over the catcher, and does so without any significant issues, dispels the idea that it's not terribly difficult to execute.

We don't want the default "play at the plate" to be the runner stopping at the last second and hopelessly retreating to third. Or even worse, just giving up.


I think what we don't want is baserunners driving their upper bodies into prone catchers because of a foolhardy send by the third base coach. If the only way you can be safe at the plate is by Jack Tatuming the catcher, you deserve to be out.

   14. PreservedFish Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:25 AM (#5691919)
I guess you're right. I think such a rule would lead to a weird gray area and challenges for the umpires, but we already have that, so maybe it wouldn't be adding a real problem.
   15. McCoy Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:25 AM (#5691920)
Or just ban catchers from the basepath all together regardless of whether or not they are fielding the ball. So in this case it would be Kemp is credited with a run scored since the catcher was in the basepath and Kemp is ejected for initiating contact.
   16. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:29 AM (#5691925)
Or just ban catchers from the basepath all together regardless of whether or not they are fielding the ball

How exactly are they supposed to tag the runner? If the runner slides on the foul side of home, and the C can't enter the base path, how's he going to tag him?
   17. McCoy Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:35 AM (#5691926)
Oh well. Runner has to stay on the basepath and has to tag the plate. A catcher most certainly can reach any runner attempting to tag the plate and or running within the basepath.
   18. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:39 AM (#5691930)
Oh well. Runner has to stay on the basepath and has to tag the plate. A catcher most certainly can reach any runner attempting to tag the plate and or running within the basepath.

So, the runner can't slide wide and reach back with his hand? He has to go straight in?

Asking a catcher to try to tag a hand, while standing well clear of the plate is too much.
   19. McCoy Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:41 AM (#5691933)

Asking a catcher to try to tag a hand, while standing well clear of the plate is too much.


Oh well. Rules are rules. If the goal is safety who cares if the catcher has a harder time making the play?
   20. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:50 AM (#5691937)
Oh well. Rules are rules. If the goal is safety who cares if the catcher has a harder time making the play?

Because there are better ways to do it. Require the base runner to slide, and outlaw the Catcher blocking the plate completely.

If the catcher straddles the plate, but leaves a lane for the runners' feet to reach the base, you've eliminated 99% of injuries, and the catcher can still make a play.
   21. Jack Keefe Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:01 AM (#5691952)
The scuffle began when Kike Hernandez hit a base hit

Of course they would scuffle then Al. Do not they know you are not suphosed to say Kike. Ozzie Guillen all ways told me I must say Three Parenthesis American.
   22. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:23 AM (#5691970)

If the only way you can be safe at the plate is by Jack Tatuming the catcher, you deserve to be out.

They should ban Tatum from Cooperstown along with Pete Rose.

Are fielders allowed to block the basepath at any other base? It should be their responsibility to get out of the way.
   23. McCoy Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:24 AM (#5691971)
What is straddling the plate? Legs on either side of the plate? That will still lead to contact and injuries. If the goal is to minimize injuries you remove contact from the game. That means you keep the catcher out of the basepath and the runners inside them.
   24. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:25 AM (#5691974)

Are fielders allowed to block the basepath at any other base?


With the ball or to field the ball, yes.

   25. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:32 AM (#5691984)
What is straddling the plate? Legs on either side of the plate? That will still lead to contact and injuries. If the goal is to minimize injuries you remove contact from the game. That means you keep the catcher out of the basepath and the runners inside them.

Standing right above the plate with feet on either side. There should be no contact except the catcher's glove on the runners' feet. If you slide so late that you knock the catcher over, you should be out, and ejected. If the catcher doesn't leave a path to the plate, the runner is automatically safe. Catchers' gloves aren't made to do slap tags. They need to get in the baseline to make tags.

With the ball or to field the ball, yes.

Right. If the fielder has the ball, and is between you and the bag, you're out. You shouldn't be allowed to tackle him in an attempt to be safe.
   26. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 11:40 AM (#5692073)

With the ball or to field the ball, yes.


Isn't it interference if they don't glove the ball before the runner reaches the spot?

Regardless, just make a rule that the baserunner is out if he makes contact with a fielder otherwise, and any outs prevented by contact as well. You're still going to have judgement calls, and collisions on close plays, but I like a simpler rule rather than one more complex.

Changing the culture takes time.
   27. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 11:42 AM (#5692074)
I don't blame either player for scuffling once contact is made. Territoriality is an instinct.
   28. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 11:47 AM (#5692082)
Isn't it interference if they don't glove the ball before the runner reaches the spot?


They can't set up and block a bag without the ball. If they end up blocking a path to the bag because that's what it took to catch the ball, then it wouldn't be obstruction.

Regardless, just make a rule that the baserunner is out if he makes contact with a fielder otherwise, and any outs prevented by contact as well. You're still going to have judgement calls, and collisions on close plays, but I like a simpler rule rather than one more complex.


You can't avoid every collision, and not every collision is the fault of the baserunner (or for that matter, anyone's fault). What you can eliminate is the collisions that are intentionally initiated by the baserunner. MLB seems to want to go in that direction, but their intention isn't entirely clear by the rules they've thus written.
   29. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 11:49 AM (#5692083)
I don't blame either player for scuffling once contact is made


Didn't you also not blame Shawn Chacon for choking Ed Wade? I think your tolerance level for workplace violence is a little higher than most Primates.

   30. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 11:54 AM (#5692088)


Didn't you also not blame Shawn Chacon for choking Ed Wade?


Who hasn't wanted to choke a (general) manager? And it's only rumor that I own a Latrell Sprewell jersey.
   31. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 11:58 AM (#5692093)
Also, a sports arena is not just another workplace.

I have to admit I have always been aggressive playing sports, even friendly games of coed kickball.
   32. Harmon "Thread Killer" Microbrew Posted: June 14, 2018 at 01:02 PM (#5692153)
Why not just go to the commitment line/home plate line combination that has been effectively preventing collisions in recreational ball for decades?

Much like the safety bag at first, take the tag out of it and just make it a footrace where catcher has to touch the plate before runner crosses a line. It will penalize great sliders and great taggers, but it will at least create a black and whiteness and injury prevention that will never be achieved with the current mess of rules and interpretations.

The argument that going to a home plate "line" fundamentally changes the game is correct, but we've opened that box already with replay, Utley rules, Posey rules, etc.

P.S. - I am not a crackpot.
   33. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 02:47 PM (#5692259)
Why not just go to the commitment line/home plate line combination that has been effectively preventing collisions in recreational ball for decades?


Because it's not necessary. College baseball doesn't have that line, and it doesn't have a problem with collisions either. It's really not as difficult as people think. The Posey Rule has gone a long way to eliminating collisions. To get the rest of the way there, you just have to specifically outlaw moves like Kemp's. That's it. On the other bases, the Utley Rule has helped, but it still needs some work. Specifically, you have to slide straight at the bag or away from the defender.

Oh, and I'd also advise to avoid playing coed kickball with Perros.

   34. zachtoma Posted: June 14, 2018 at 04:20 PM (#5692340)
I'm not sure what else Kemp was supposed to do there. A slide would've just ended up with him going into Chirino's knees. If you want to remove that kind of play from the game, you have to define what Chirinos did as catcher interference.
   35. Adam Starblind Posted: June 14, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5692351)
Kike Hernandez


Excuse me?
   36. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: June 14, 2018 at 05:05 PM (#5692385)
Kiké.
   37. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 05:20 PM (#5692396)

I'm not sure what else Kemp was supposed to do there. A slide would've just ended up with him going into Chirino's knees. If you want to remove that kind of play from the game, you have to define what Chirinos did as catcher interference.


I don't get why sliding into a catcher's knees is a problem, but pile-driving him with his forearms is a reasonable solution.

Slide. Or give himself up. And tell your third base coach not to make such a stupid send.

And they've already outlawed catcher's blocking the plate without the ball (or making a play on the ball). The umpires ruled this didn't violate that rule.

   38. zachtoma Posted: June 14, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5692406)
And they've already outlawed catcher's blocking the plate without the ball (or making a play on the ball). The umpires ruled this didn't violate that rule.


I don't think it did either. And, given that, I don't have a problem with Kemp's approach to getting by the catcher. I don't like the idea that you can get a guy out just by standing in the baseline with the ball, you have to make a play. He didn't give Kemp much of a choice but to play linebacker there.
   39. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:08 PM (#5692425)
I don't think it did either. And, given that, I don't have a problem with Kemp's approach to getting by the catcher. I don't like the idea that you can get a guy out just by standing in the baseline with the ball, you have to make a play. He didn't give Kemp much of a choice but to play linebacker there.


So basically, if you're out by so much that the catcher has time to wait for you, then you're free to disembowel him.

Does that go for all the bases, or just home? If the throw to third beats the runner by such an amount that the third sacker is waiting in the path with the ball for the runner, should the baserunner be allowed to decapitate him as well?

It's ridiculous that baseball ever allowed this in the first place. It's mostly gone. It needs to go the rest of the way. If Matt Kemp is thrown out by that much, he can slide, or give himself up, or retreat to third and start a rundown, which is what the guys usually do when they've made a bad advancement decision. Assault should not be an option.
   40. zachtoma Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:18 PM (#5692434)
So basically, if you're out by so much that the catcher has time to wait for you, then you're free to disembowel him.

Does that go for all the bases, or just home? If the throw to third beats the runner by such an amount that the third sacker is waiting in the path with the ball for the runner, should the baserunner be allowed to decapitate him as well?

It's ridiculous that baseball ever allowed this in the first place. It's mostly gone. It needs to go the rest of the way. If Matt Kemp is thrown out by that much, he can slide, or give himself up, or retreat to third and start a rundown, which is what the guys usually do when they've made a bad advancement decision. Assault should not be an option.


I've never seen that play at 3rd or 2nd. Usually an infielder knows how to tag a runner without putting himself in harm's ways, and does so without difficulty many times over the course of a season, there's no reason a catcher can't do it as well. Chirinos knew what he was doing, he set that collision up.
   41. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:29 PM (#5692439)
I've never seen that play at 3rd or 2nd. Usually an infielder knows how to tag a runner without putting himself in harm's ways, and does so without difficulty many times over the course of a season, there's no reason a catcher can't do it as well.


Infielders have been known to block the basepath when the ball beats the runner by a considerable amount. In that case, the baserunner tries to go around, or gives himself up, or retreats into a rundown. Hell, the guy who receives the throw in a rundown is expected to subsequently block the basepath. That's his responsibility.

And there is a reason why the catcher might block the basepath besides the desire to put the runner out - he had to in order to catch the ball.

What there's truly no reason for is Kemp's play. There's simply no logical justification for it based on how the game is played everywhere else on the diamond.
   42. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5692440)

Because it's not necessary. College baseball doesn't have that line, and it doesn't have a problem with collisions either.


It's not hard to find lots of videos of catchers being plowed over in college games.
   43. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:37 PM (#5692442)

just by standing in the baseline with the ball, you have to make a play. He didn't give Kemp much of a choice but to play linebacker there.


Neither player nor manager had any problem with what happened, even afterwards. Kemp explained he broke his ankle when he slid on a similar play five years back. And sorry, players don't have even a second to decide what to do in these circumstances. Watching slo-mo lounging at your computer is not the real world.
   44. Benji Gil Gamesh VII - The Opt-Out Awakens Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5692449)
I've never seen that play at 3rd or 2nd.
Maybe not, but we've seen it BETWEEN 1st and 2nd.
   45. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:47 PM (#5692450)
It's not hard to find lots of videos of catchers being plowed over in college games.


You're searching skills are apparently much better than mine. Because all of my efforts aren't turning up much beyond a 2004 CWS game, where the runner was ejected.
   46. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5692454)
Maybe not, but we've seen it BETWEEN 1st and 2nd.


And, even years before Posey, Belle was fined for that.

Neither player nor manager had any problem with what happened, even afterwards. Kemp explained he broke his ankle when he slid on a similar play five years back. And sorry, players don't have even a second to decide what to do in these circumstances. Watching slo-mo lounging at your computer is not the real world.


I don't care what they decide, as long as their decision tree doesn't include running through the defensive player. There isn't a compelling reason for baseball to continue to allow this to be a legal play.

   47. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 07:29 PM (#5692477)
Taking collisions out of the game is not as simple as making more and more rules. Home plate is particularly contentious in every way. They are trying to score. It's kind of like expecting basketball players not to commit fouls near the basket.

Baseball attracts the cerebral fan, but I always found it's players to be non-reflective (to be polite). They're gonna go along with the overall culture of the game. Changing that is complex, takes time, and has to happen from within the ranks.

Not sure you want to see players stop trying hard to push the envelope.


   48. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 08:17 PM (#5692505)
Taking collisions out of the game is not as simple as making more and more rules. Home plate is particularly contentious in every way. They are trying to score. It's kind of like expecting basketball players not to commit fouls near the basket.


You can't remove collisions from the game entirely. They will happen in a sport where players are moving at high speeds.

You can take intentional collisions out of the game with little difficulty (or, at least, punish anyone who initiates one).

Baseball attracts the cerebral fan, but I always found it's players to be non-reflective (to be polite). They're gonna go along with the overall culture of the game. Changing that is complex, takes time, and has to happen from within the ranks.


This argument might have made some sense three years ago, before the Posey Rule was implemented. But that rule has virtually eliminated the intentional home plate collision from the game, so much so that two posters here assumed that it had. The idea that the players can't adjust is already laughably untrue.
   49. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 14, 2018 at 08:48 PM (#5692517)
I don't think it did either. And, given that, I don't have a problem with Kemp's approach to getting by the catcher. I don't like the idea that you can get a guy out just by standing in the baseline with the ball, you have to make a play. He didn't give Kemp much of a choice but to play linebacker there.

Horseshit. You can't just plow into a guy every time you get in a rundown. If the ball beats you by enough that the fielder can set up in the basepath and wait for you, you deserve to be out. Try and go around, or turn around and try your luck in a rundown, or accept your fate. Assault is not a legitimate option.
   50. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:21 PM (#5692528)

But that rule has virtually eliminated the intentional home plate collision from the game, so much so that two posters here assumed that it had.


Except for last night. And Rizzo. And a runner called safe when Knapp blocked the plate in a game last week. 'Virtually' and 'assumed' are good word choices.

The funny thing is that wasn't the most interesting play at the plate in last night's game.
   51. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:27 PM (#5692533)
Also funny is Chirinos shoving at Bellinger then quickly backtracking to allow his teammates to separate them. Funnier was Kemp asking Kenley Jansen where he was when the benches and bullpens cleared.

"I was on the couch, chillin.'"

Cultures do change in time. Check out Kemp's glasses in the postgame interview.
   52. Leroy Kincaid Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:28 PM (#5692534)
Kike Hernandez

Excuse me?


Juan Epstein's cousin.
   53. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:37 PM (#5692536)
Except for last night. And Rizzo. And a runner called safe when Knapp blocked the plate in a game last week. 'Virtually' and 'assumed' are good word choices.


Rizzo was last year. The Knapp play was not an intentional collision at the plate, but Almora diving head first in a slide.

So yeah, virtually.
   54. zachtoma Posted: June 14, 2018 at 09:41 PM (#5692540)

Horseshit. You can't just plow into a guy every time you get in a rundown. If the ball beats you by enough that the fielder can set up in the basepath and wait for you, you deserve to be out. Try and go around, or turn around and try your luck in a rundown, or accept your fate. Assault is not a legitimate option.


No, assault is not a legitimate option and did not take place. Todd Bertuzzi committed assault when he punched Steve Moore from behind. Marty McSorley committed assault when he slashed Donald Brashear in the head. Matt Kemp ran into another baseball player blocking the plate.
   55. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:00 PM (#5692546)
I don’t like the rule change, I enjoy the collisions at the plate. But the rule is what it is and if they are going to do it then there is no reason what Kemp did should be OK. The idea that the players can’t change is nonsense. Kemp was out by ten feet, he didn’t have to slide, he could have surrendered or turned around and hoped for a rundown. Players adapt to rule changes regularly. This play isn’t so common that it’s some massive impossibility to adjust to. The fact is the players HAVE adapted to it, this play is getting noticed because it IS rare now. As soon as the change was made the frequency of the play decreased nearly 100%.

Like I said, i’d Be glad if they got rid of the rule and just did a better job of enforcing the existing rule about catchers not being able to block the plate without the ball (Varitek was a genius at that). But they made the change, and with good reason, and the players have to deal with it.
   56. perros Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5692553)

As soon as the change was made the frequency of the play decreased nearly 100%.


What Kemp did was not against the rules. What Rizzo did a couple of weeks ago -- not against the rules. What is against the rules is for the catcher to block the plate. As for avoidability, the umps ruled Chirinos was led into the basepath by the throw, so blocking didn't come into play because he couldn't avoid it. Yet Kemp was supposed to just stop trying to score.

You nancies are looking at things from just one side of the collision, and wrongly according to the rules to boot.
   57. SoSH U at work Posted: June 14, 2018 at 10:28 PM (#5692557)

What Kemp did was not against the rules.


No, it wasn't. Players are still allowed to run over the catcher if the umpire determines the catcher is blocking the plate. We're arguing it shouldn't be. You're a tough guy, so you don't think so.

What Rizzo did a couple of weeks ago -- not against the rules.


The league said otherwise. And, of course, it's not the same play.

As for avoidability, the umps ruled Chirinos was led into the basepath by the throw, so blocking didn't come into play because he couldn't avoid it. Yet Kemp was supposed to just stop trying to score.


No, but if baseball gets its head out of its ass (I know, not something we should expect with Bobby Man Fred in charge), he'll need to do something besides run through the catcher. It can be done, if baseball wants to make it happen, and it will require as much adjusting as it did to get rid of 90 percent of the runner-initiated home plate collisions that disappeared as soon as the Posey rule was put in place. In other words, almost none.

You nancies are looking at things from just one side of the collision, and wrongly according to the rules to boot.


No, we're not. We long ago established that Kemp's play is not against the rules. Each of us nancies has been arguing what the rule should be. But what do we know? We're the kind of guys that no one thinks is a ####### ####### after the big co-ed kickball game.

   58. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 15, 2018 at 02:43 PM (#5692928)
What Kemp did was not against the rules. What Rizzo did a couple of weeks ago -- not against the rules. What is against the rules is for the catcher to block the plate. As for avoidability, the umps ruled Chirinos was led into the basepath by the throw, so blocking didn't come into play because he couldn't avoid it. Yet Kemp was supposed to just stop trying to score.
What Rizzo did and what Kemp did are, like SoSH pointed out, totally different. You're also ignoring the fact that Chirinos not only couldn't avoid it, he SHOULDN'T avoid it. He had the ball in his hands, and so had every right to be there to tag the runner out. In that particular situation, yeah, Kemp absolutely should have either slid or stopped trying to score. Instead, he loaded up and tried to send Chirinos into low earth orbit. In this particular case, "if I truck him so hard he'll blank out and maybe drop the ball and I'll be safe" might be legal, but it shouldn't be.
   59. perros Posted: June 15, 2018 at 03:09 PM (#5692964)
Admittedly, I'm kinda being a ####### ####### on this one, probably for the same reason I won't be running over fielders in the baseline at kickball (a female phys-ed major, btw, who took it well) -- I'm getting old and I don't like how the game is trending towards an early bedtime for me (also, see my occupation). It's boring as #### to watch a bunch of True Outcomes which far exceed balls in play (afaik, Ks still exceed hits in 2018). And now you tell me you want runners to give up and even run the other way if there's gonna be a play at the plate.

Also, I wouldn't be so adamant if many of you weren't saying Kemp was not only at fault, but that he committed assault and rocketry on poor Chiniros.

Has the game gotten better with the Posey Rule, the Utley Rule, and instant replay? No, it has not, but you keep calling for more rules, more changes, more stuff to make the game more analytical and less fun. Hell, read a chatter, it's mostly a lot of ######## and moaning. You're not having fun, either.

Free the players, man. Free the players.
   60. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: June 15, 2018 at 03:35 PM (#5692996)
Has the game gotten better with the Posey Rule, the Utley Rule, and instant replay? No, it has not, but you keep calling for more rules, more changes, more stuff to make the game more analytical and less fun. Hell, read a chatter, it's mostly a lot of ######## and moaning. You're not having fun, either.

Free the players, man. Free the players.


I like seeing the creative swim move tags more than takeout slides. So yes, it has gotten more fun. And I don't care to see players run over each other, then someone gets hit with a ball, then someone else does, then the bullpens emptying, then a stupid milling about. Relief pitchers running out of the bullpen is ####### dumb.
   61. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: June 15, 2018 at 04:08 PM (#5693016)
No, assault is not a legitimate option and did not take place.

If I see you at a supermarket and do this to you, it is assault. There is no reason, a non baseball play like this should not be assault, just because it happens on a baseball field.
   62. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 15, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5693052)
Also, I wouldn't be so adamant if many of you weren't saying Kemp was not only at fault, but that he committed assault and rocketry on poor Chiniros.
This is one of those tricky situations when both players have an absolute right to something, and those rights conflict. Chirinos had the ball and position, and absolutely has the right to sit right there and tag Kemp out. Kemp has the absolute right to try to score. However, that doesn't mean we should then just throw up our hands and let whomever survives the play win. If that were the case, teams might as well goon up and just send bench players right after the other team's starting catchers.

Kemp was out by at least 20 feet. I don't particularly feel like baseball needs to legislate this, but at some point, players should be able to acknowledge that they're just gonna be out without having to see what could happen if they could just attack another player.
   63. perros Posted: June 15, 2018 at 06:57 PM (#5693078)
Kemp had reached the dirt circle around home plate by the time Chirinos secured the ball, and took two strides before contact at the front corner of the right batters box. Maybe he had a second to decide. Not exactly a cerebral process.
   64. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 15, 2018 at 07:34 PM (#5693093)
Not exactly a cerebral process.
You're wrong. The play was developing in front of him. Kemp can see how far ahead of him that throw was, and you can see him stutter-step as he gathered himself to blow Chirinos up. After the game, Kemp made it clear that it was a decision, and not just an OMG moment:
"He was blocking the plate. I don't know the rule. I don't even know how it works. I didn't have a clear path to slide. All I could really think about when I saw him blocking the plate was Washington when I slid into home and messed up my ankle. I didn't want to do that again.''
He not only saw the play, thought about a slide path, made a decision to crush Chirinos, and then — as video clearly shows — he slows to gather himself before he slammed into him.

By the time Kemp got to the dirt circle around home plate, he was getting ready. He knew what was he was going to do because he could see how far ahead the throw was and how out he'd be, he'd thought about sliding, considered the alternatives, and had made a decision.
   65. perros Posted: June 15, 2018 at 08:09 PM (#5693119)
People explain things after the fact when the actual process doesn't work that way -- there's no rational decision. All that you describe happened in about a second. You could look up the neuroscience if you want, but my weekend has started.

Cheers.
   66. Sunday silence Posted: June 15, 2018 at 10:13 PM (#5693200)
Does Kemp not slide into second or third base either? Cause if he's worried about sliding then maybe he shouldnt slide into any base.

Are there any videos of Kemp sliding into second?
   67. nick swisher hygiene Posted: June 15, 2018 at 10:35 PM (#5693220)
Kemp is 100% at fault here. Takes half a dozen little steps, smashes into the catcher, then instigates as they get up.

How on earth did you people get 66 comments out of this?
   68. Howie Menckel Posted: June 15, 2018 at 10:57 PM (#5693228)
I was at a Mets game at CitiField a couple of years ago, sitting in LF, not too far from the scoreboard.

Mr. Hernandez of the Dodgers comes to bat, and his name appears on that board in HUGE LETTERS - and without the accent mark. the percentage of fans there who back in the day might have been targeted by that word was, well, not an insignificant number. nobody seemed startled.

it was a little confusing - but if this is a new era, then that's fine, too.

as for catchers and home plate, my favorite was Barrett in that 2007? Rockies-Padres game. I forget who the runner was (Holliday?), but there was much angst over the Rockies runner sliding and not touching home plate but being called safe. Barrett completely blocked the plate, which bizarrely was legal then - I think. so what was the runner supposed to do? I proposed a concealed, sleek handgun hidden in the uniform. the runner can stop at a close distance, then lock and load.

once. then the catcher has his own artillery next game - and the ratings explode.
   69. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:25 AM (#5693255)
People explain things after the fact when the actual process doesn't work that way -- there's no rational decision. All that you describe happened in about a second.
Maybe that's a problem for you or I. That's not really a problem for a professional baseball player. Split-second decisions are made literally all the time. Kemp plays the game at a pretty high level, so if he says he did it — and the video certainly shows him doing it — then I'm going to defer to his words instead of your snark.
   70. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 16, 2018 at 02:11 AM (#5693256)
he committed assault and rocketry


This is a good line.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

News

All News | Prime News

Old-School Newsstand


BBTF Partner

Dynasty League Baseball

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogOT - Catch-All Pop Culture Extravaganza (December 2018)
(713 - 9:57pm, Dec 18)
Last: Howie Menckel

NewsblogPrimer Dugout (and link of the day) 12-18-2018
(32 - 9:56pm, Dec 18)
Last: Der-K: at 10% emotional investment

NewsblogTwins to retire Joe Mauer's No. 7
(18 - 9:33pm, Dec 18)
Last: Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer

Hall of Merit2019 Hall of Merit Ballot Discussion
(407 - 9:27pm, Dec 18)
Last: JoeD has the Imperial March Stuck in His Head

NewsblogThibs' Hall of Fame Tracker
(529 - 9:17pm, Dec 18)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogOT: Soccer Thread (The Berhalter Thread?)
(253 - 8:41pm, Dec 18)
Last: Mefisto

NewsblogOT: Wrestling Thread November 2014
(2321 - 8:37pm, Dec 18)
Last: Chokeland Bill

NewsblogOT - 2018 NFL thread
(130 - 8:32pm, Dec 18)
Last: Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington

NewsblogOT - College Football Bowl Spectacular (December 2018 - January 2019)
(93 - 8:26pm, Dec 18)
Last: Lance Reddick! Lance him!

NewsblogChicago Cubs manager Joe Maddon reveals the book he says is helping him manage millennial players
(117 - 8:26pm, Dec 18)
Last: Master of the Horse

NewsblogOT - NBA Thread (2018-19 season kickoff edition)
(3779 - 7:53pm, Dec 18)
Last: Tom Cervo, backup catcher

NewsblogOT Gaming: October 2015
(921 - 7:44pm, Dec 18)
Last: The Anthony Kennedy of BBTF (Scott)

NewsblogRed Sox hire former Angels scout Morhardt, who was responsible for drafting Mike Trout
(14 - 6:01pm, Dec 18)
Last: JL72

Hall of Merit2019 Hall of Merit Ballot
(18 - 5:52pm, Dec 18)
Last: cookiedabookie

NewsblogNY Post: Lenny Dykstra reveals his new life as an amateur Torah scholar
(14 - 5:17pm, Dec 18)
Last: Zach

Page rendered in 0.5863 seconds
46 querie(s) executed