That's about where I had pegged Damon when I was thinking about it the other day: in a class with Harry Hooper, Vada Pinson, Sam Rice. They had different styles and played in different eras, but similar overall results. Chili Davis is another vaguely similar player: better hitter, weaker defender, capable (like Damon) of contributing for a long, long time at a consistent level. WAR doesn't like Davis as much because of all his time at DH, which is reasonable.

11 Damon comps. Outfielders and corner-IF within 12 WAR, 10 OPS+, 1300 PA, and 400 H of Damon.

Connie Mack once referred to Lave Cross as "a real live wire." Another similarity to Damon :)

Actually WAR overvalues Damon by a lot. It doesn't take peaks, primes, or WAR/162 games into account at all, and I doubt that it includes postseason play, either. Just raw accumulator value. On the list above, Damon has the second-worst OPS+, behind only Lave Cross, who is on the list only because his glove was so good that he is not really similar to Damon, and should not be on this particular list. Damon's glove isn't carrying him. He doesn't have a smattering of great seasons for a peak or prime. He played over 300 games at DH, and if he played longer, that number would rise quickly, which, if you're comparing him to this list, means that he has at least 200 hits in those games that the other list players don't have only because they had to quit when their bats would no longer carry their gloves, or when they got too beat up from years of play that they had to retire for that. I doubt that he was any better, really, than anyone on this list except Finley, who really is similar to Damon, just not as good.

Also, 3000 hits should NOT get any of the new guys who were able to exploit the benchmark automatically into the Hall or it will be drowning in them within a decade. Damon represents the first class of DH-extended candidates, along with Jim Rice. This is especially true for players who had their career starts in the mid-1990s, like Damon. They got the benefit of the offensive surge, which means that they were able to pile up hits much faster than they would have had they played in any era other than the 1920s-30s. For these guys, you need to substantially upgrade the "automatic" level of hits to at least 3500, not 3000. That old boundary was for guys who could not extend their bats' careers because their gloves or bodies had given way and there was no longer any position for them, or had their careers in lower run environments. Lou Brock's 3000 hits, with a career featuring the late 1960s, no DH, and a serious pitchers' ballpark from 1966 on, is a LOT more impressive than 3000 hits would be for Damon in the times and parks he played in. You cannot use the same automatic in-line for Damon as you do for Brock, much less Max Carey or Harry Hooper, who had smaller schedules, which is another thing that WAR does not adjust for but which does hold down the number of hits he could pile up.

In sort,Damon got about every break he possibly could have in piling up hits, and still didn't make a benchmark that is 500 hits short of where it should be. - Brock Hanke

Damon represents the first class of DH-extended candidates, along with Jim Rice.

Not sure I'm getting what you mean, but there were plenty of DH-extended candidates before Johnny. He's either 2nd or 3rd generation. Molitor and Baines are a generation ahead of him, Don Baylor more like 2 generations.

I don't see Damon as deriving a big advantage from the DH spot in any case. He rarely DHd before 2010 with the Tigers. When he did that he was still a capable outfielder as far as range. Can't throw worth a damn, but he never could anyway. For the last 2 years he still has acceptable defensive stats in the 50 or so games he's played in the field. He was the DH for TB last year not because he can't field, but because they had CF capable guys playing left (Fuld and then Jennings) and no big slow moving masher who was limited to DH.

This year with the Indians they don't have so much OF depth, and do have a DH-limited masher in Pronk Hafner. So Damon has played OF so far (+1 TZ and +0 DRS in super small sample) while DHing once.

As for Jim Rice, he was primarily a DH when he was younger, only because the Red Sox had great young defenders in RF/CF in Evans and Lynn, and a great defensive oldtimer in Yaz. Rice was not a poor outfielder, especially when his legs were young. He was the DH not because he had to, but because somebody had too.

From 1981 to 1987, Rice was the DH only 26 times, about 4 games per season. It was only his final 2 seasons that could be described as DH extended years, and those two years add nothing useful to his record, 191 games of 255/314/388 (93 OPS+).

Have to agree with Don's major point though. Damon was not better than Pinson. Pinson was a great player up through his 20's, not much of a player in his early 30's, and done at 35. Damon was a good player from 21 to 37, nothing more or less than that. He's got consistency, but he lacks the peak value that Pinson had.

Lave Cross, who is on the list only because his glove was so good that he is not really similar to Damon, and should not be on this particular list

Yet, he somehow qualified for the list. It's fine that you were able to discern a difference between him and Damon, one among many differences. I agree that Cross and Damon aren't really closely similar; indeed, Johnny doesn't have very many close sims. Uniqueness tends to be a hallmark of quality, but there are exceptions, obviously.

An issue that I notice from the list is how Damon has more WAR than players with similar playing time, a higher OPS+ and more defensive value: Carey, Hooper, Rice. And a lot more than Finley, who has the same hitting and defense. So WAR is giving Johnny mega-points for base running, right?

Also, 3000 hits should NOT get any of the new guys who were able to exploit the benchmark automatically into the Hall or it will be drowning in them within a decade.

Not seeing many 3,000 hit candidates on the horizon, with or without substantial time as a DH.

Brock, you're grossly overstating.

LgBA for Brock was 264; for Damon it's 271. That's 7 hits per 1000 PA which would only add about 75 hits to Damon's total relative to Brock in the same PA. 3500 hits would be a ridiculous threshold.

The DH bit is also over-stated. Hitters like Damon don't get to play much DH generally -- his 105-110 OPS+ is barely acceptable for a full-time DH. It should add some games in-season as well as maybe one season at the end of a career.

But Brock's got nothing to brag about in that regard as he's one of the all-time classic examples of a guy hanging on for milestones. The last 1200 PA of his career he had a 79 OPS+, 270 BA, 322 hits, -2.4 WAR ... and made it over the 3000 line by a mere 23 hits. His 72 steals also pushed him over the line but he probably would have gotten those anyway (i.e. he was gonna play at 38 coming off a Brock-ish age 37 season). Anyway, I'm far from sure that any team these days would even give Brock a chance in his age 39-40 seasons and that chance almost certainly would have ended during his age 39 year.

None of that really impacts on Damon's Hall worthiness though.

Not seeing many 3,000 hit candidates on the horizon, with or without substantial time as a DH.

ARod, Ichiro, Pujols, Young, Beltre. There's quite a few actually

Molitor and Baines are a generation ahead of him, Don Baylor more like 2 generations.

I would include, in the first generation of DH-extended careers, HoFers like Harmon Killebrew (162 games at DH) and Orlando Cepeda (168 games at DH).

how did the writer get to the pt. where Pinson is "no conceivable way" a HoFer? He had excellent power and speed numbers for a fairly large time period. I didnt know his defense was considered not very good, only as I read this thread. How sure are we about his defense?

I also dont agree w/ Brock's take on the DH players as automatically resetting the benchmark. It's one thing if a guy really cannot play the field, but if the guy can play the field at least for some games then this resetting the benchmark idea has to be somewhat mitigated. If say Damon was able to take the field half the time (by some advanced metric), then he should get at least half the credit for his hits during his DH days.

Besides that, if the rules allow you to DH then supposedly he's one of the better DHs that team can put out there. If there were better DHers in their organization wouldnt they get playing time?


I daresay Damon is sort of comparable to Brock. I dont recall him being a star in the playoffs but he was a key member for a number of playoff teams.

He's a very interesting case to be sure.

Not seeing many 3,000 hit candidates on the horizon, with or without substantial time as a DH.

ARod, Ichiro, Pujols, Young, Beltre. There's quite a few actually

A-Rod is the only sure thing among those possibilities. I would have included Pujols despite the distance he has to go, but until they find the real Albert I'm reserving judgment. Ichiro, Young & Beltre aren't positioned any better than a lot of candidates that have fallen short although they could age well, so I'm not sure we're really drowning in potential 3,000 Hit Club Members.

Spanning Multiple Seasons or entire Careers, From 1901 to 2012, From Age 35 to 99, Played 75% of games at DH, sorted by greatest Hits

                                                        
Rk              Player    H From   To   Age   G   PA  HR
1         Paul Molitor 1233 1992 1998 35-41 985 4425  86
2       Edgar Martinez 1037 1998 2004 35-41 964 4085 164
3        Brian Downing  854 1986 1992 35-41 910 3783 129
4        Harold Baines  806 1994 2001 35-42 868 3126 123
5            Hal McRae  737 1981 1987 35-41 765 2829  71

6           Rico Carty  685 1975 1979 35-39 674 2690  89
7            Jim Thome  624 2006 2012 35-41 759 2867 174
8          Chili Davis  581 1995 1999 35-39 585 2384 100
9         Frank Thomas  566 2003 2008 35-40 624 2569 145
10          Don Baylor  531 1984 1988 35-39 656 2589 104

11        Dave Kingman  406 1984 1986 35-37 449 1883 100
12       Cliff Johnson  397 1983 1986 35-38 482 1710  66
13       Hideki Matsui  387 2009 2011 35-37 428 1671  61
14         Tommy Davis  374 1974 1976 35-37 354 1418  20
15       Ken Singleton  359 1982 1984 35-37 418 1673  38

16       Willie Horton  353 1978 1980 35-37 374 1505  48
17             Lee May  351 1978 1982 35-39 418 1485  54
18   Vladimir Guerrero  341 2010 2011 35-36 297 1233  42
19          Tony Oliva  280 1974 1976 35-37 325 1137  27
20         David Ortiz  211 2011 2012 35-36 182  761  37

21      Andre Thornton  211 1985 1987 35-37 280 1086  39
22      Orlando Cepeda  182 1973 1974 35-36 175  725  21
23            Jim Rice  177 1988 1989 35-36 191  770  18
24          Jack Clark  174 1991 1992 35-36 221  907  33
25        Jose Canseco  149 2000 2001 35-36 174  707  31

26    Mickey Tettleton  125 1996 1997 35-36 160  647  27
27         David Segui  104 2002 2004 35-37 111  424   8
28          Jorge Orta  102 1986 1987 35-36 127  414  11
29   Darryl Strawberry   92 1997 1999 35-37 136  443  27
30        Carl Everett   70 2006 2006 35-35  92  343  11

31         Cliff Floyd   68 2008 2009 35-36  90  301  11
32     Rance Mulliniks   61 1991 1992 35-36 100  289   2
33       Gorman Thomas   59 1986 1986 35-35 101  377  16
34         Pete OBrien   54 1993 1993 35-35  72  239   7
35       Travis Hafner   27 2012 2012 35-35  32  136   4

36          Bob Bailey   18 1978 1978 35-35  43  116   4
37           John Jaha    4 2001 2001 35-35  12   52   0
38         Larry Hisle    4 1982 1982 35-35   9   36   2
39       Steve Balboni    3 1993 1993 36-36   2    5   0

An issue that I notice from the list is how Damon has more WAR than players with similar playing time, a higher OPS+ and more defensive value: Carey, Hooper, Rice. And a lot more than Finley, who has the same hitting and defense. So WAR is giving Johnny mega-points for base running, right?

Yes, baserunning and avoiding double plays (which I have to believe takes into account the fact that he usually batted leadoff). To be fair, it does seem like he was very good at both of those things.

I don't mean to totally interrupt an interesting conversation, but I kind of like the possibilities suggested by this headline.


ALEX RODRIGUEZ AND EDDIE MATHEWS
BRYCE HARPER AND MICKEY MANTLE
BRAD LIDGE AND, OH, I DUNNO, MIKE MARSHALL OR SOMEBODY
ALBERT PUJOLS AND DIZZY DEAN

since when is Tolaxar writing headlines?

And the list in #14, the only guy to make it to 3000 hits was Molitor. Who knows what they'd have done with Molitor if the DH hadn't existed, presumably 1B given that's where he played when not DHing after age 33 (for 160 starts). I don't know if Molitor makes it to 3000 without the DH but he did finish with 3319 and was an above-average hitter until his final season so he has some cushion.

More relevantly, everybody knows Molitor's career was extended by the DH and nobody seems to consider him a cheapie.

But my main point is to get folks to look at that list of DHs. It's not exaclty over-run with high average, low power types. There's Baines and Molitor (neither of whom were pantywaists) but nobody is gonna confuse Rico Carty and Johnny Damon if you stand them next to each other.

It will no doubt eventually happen that a Damon-esque hitter will get 1-2 seasons as a lousy DH to limp across the line -- it might even be Damon. But I'll still have a hard time considering that to be any "worse" than Brock limping across the line. And Brock's hardly alone in that, almost all the guys who barely made it limped across the line. Presumably the DH does make it a bit easier to limp.

#12 -- I agree Don overstates that a bit. Pinson is often touted as a serious VC candidate although I don't think he's ever come particularly close to election and it's hard to see him making it.

18 - Any thoughts on the DH and 500 home runs by Thome and Thomas? The DH helped them, it seems.

Yes, baserunning and avoiding double plays (which I have to believe takes into account the fact that he usually batted leadoff). To be fair, it does seem like he was very good at both of those things.

Some of this must also be that Carey comes from an era where his defense would be compared with all other outfielders, and Damon's comes from an era where he would be compared with other players at the same position (mostly CF), but then when adjusted offense for position, Damon will then get a bigger positive adjustment for position. It's really just a bookkeeping thing, but I would guess that all the centerfielders from the 1920s look like good defensive players the way they keep these numbers.

thoughts on the DH and 500 home runs by Thome and Thomas? The DH helped them

Eddie Murray is the guy who owes his 500 HR (and possibly 3000 hits) to the DH. Of course, he played through both long strikes (1981 and 1994-95).

18 - Any thoughts on the DH and 500 home runs by Thome and Thomas? The DH helped them, it seems.

Yep. That's the sort of player more likely to be helped by the DH. And Murray, as mentioned, is another one and I realize now that the earlier list may be a bit restrictive on the 75% of time at DH after 35. Murray doesn't meet that criterion but he did have 365 DH starts after that.

If you use at least 300 games, you pick up a lot more: Yaz, Winfield, Brett, Murray in the 3000 hit club. Winfield had two seasons of mostly DH before passing 3000 (then hung on for 2 more years). And Murray, Reggie, Thome, Thomas and Robinson on 500 HR. Reggie and Robinson would have cruised past it anyway but not Murray and Thome/Thomas possibly owe years of play to the DH (or possibly don't).

Alternatively, ages 39+ and 75% at DH adds Al Kaline to the list with his 144 starts at 39 and he ended with just 3007 hits. Brett pops up again and he had 318 hits as a mostly DH ages 39+. He did pass 3000 at 39 so didn't need that age 40 season but he became mainly a DH at 38.

I'm guessing Brock wasn't meaning to throw Brett under the bus. :-)

Anyway a threshold of 3500 is just too much. Only 5 guys in history have passed 3500 and the only active player with a shot is Jeter at 3144. And "second deadball era" all you want but 8 of the 25 guys who've done it played primarily in the 60s and 70s (plus Robinson at 2943). 12 have done it since then.

It will no doubt eventually happen that a Damon-esque hitter will get 1-2 seasons as a lousy DH to limp across the line -- it might even be Damon. But I'll still have a hard time considering that to be any "worse" than Brock limping across the line.

Anything that involves the DH in any way is inherently worse than anything that does not.

But I'll still have a hard time considering that to be any "worse" than Brock limping across the line.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "limping across the line." Lou Brock hit .304 and made the All-Star team in the season where he got his 3000th hit.

I'm not sure what you mean here by "limping across the line." Lou Brock hit .304 and made the All-Star team in the season where he got his 3000th hit.

He probably means the two seasons before that where he hit .253 with an OPS+ of 68. Very nice bounce back season by Brock at 40 though!

ARod, Ichiro, Pujols, Young, Beltre. There's quite a few actually

Yeah, I'm not seeing it. Rodriguez is the nearest thing to a lock, but he's a HOF regardless. Ichiro will have a hard time making it. Young, no. Beltre, no. Young and Beltre are not the sorts of players teams will pay to stick around and chase a milestone. Ichiro is, so he may be the one who does, but the other two I very strongly doubt will get there.

Anything that involves the DH in any way is inherently worse than anything that does not.

It's been almost forty years, and the DH isn't going anywhere; indeed, it's the standard in every league but one. Let it go.

Does Johnny Damon have a daughter who can be expected to drop by & share her thoughts?

Young and Beltre are not the sorts of players teams will pay to stick around and chase a milestone.

They may not need to in Beltre's case. He's going to be up around 2,200 hits at the end of this, his age 33 season. That's just short of where Young will be at the end of his age 35 season.