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Friday, August 17, 2012

Doyel: Giants looked other way on cheating Cabrera and should pay for it

Doy-El! How can I tell him his world is DOOMED!?

vb

Every team in baseball has cheaters. I suspect it. So do you. But only those who are caught can be dealt with, whether it’s a player like Cabrera or a team like the Giants. Cabrera was caught and will pay for it. So should the Giants, and while there is no precedent for that in baseball, there is precedent in other sports.

NASCAR deducts points toward the Chase for the Sprint Cup, its postseason, for a failed post-race inspection. That happened in July to Tony Stewart. In European soccer, various leagues dock points from teams for reasons including financial trouble, crowd behavior and—yes—fair play.

Point being, something not only needs to be done—something can be done. Something like this: Dropping a team in the standings if one of its players fails a drug test. Let’s say, 10 percent of the player’s suspension. Since Cabrera was suspended 50 games, the Giants would be docked five games in the standings. Oh, and since Mota was suspended 100 games, there goes another 10 games.

Harsh? Sure. But something has to be done, though Lord knows it won’t be happening this season. Selig isn’t going to channel his inner Roger Goodell and just start making up crap as he goes along, though it would seem fair in this case. It sure would be nauseating for the Giants to eke into the postseason—they’d have to eke past someone else, you see—thanks to a good start featuring the illegally fueled Melky Cabrera.

Repoz Posted: August 17, 2012 at 11:32 AM | 65 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: giants, steroids

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   1. Anonymous Observer Posted: August 17, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4210418)
Every team in baseball has cheaters. I suspect it. So do you.


Only, I don't give a damn.

I really wish there was some way to get an accurate percentage of those who do and who do not care.
   2. bfan Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4210439)
I am not saying I am for punishing the team, but a more interesting way to do so is not allow them to fill the roster spot. Obviously September call-ups moot the punishment, at that point.
   3. Chris Needham Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:10 PM (#4210445)
Huh. And here I thought missing an All-Star bat for the pennant push was a punishment.

[2] I've always liked that idea. That and fining the team somehow. Give them a little extra incentive to make sure things are running clean. (or more incentive to try and hide it or find some weasly technicality, I suppose)
   4. Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4210447)
I think Doyel's actually onto something. There is nothing in place to make it costly for teams to sign possible PED users. Giants fans may be disappointed in Melky for testing positive, but that only affects him. From the team's perspective, the fans aren't going to stop attending games and, hey, flags fly forever.
   5. Randy Jones Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:23 PM (#4210463)
but a more interesting way to do so is not allow them to fill the roster spot.


MLBPA will never allow a lost roster slot like that.
   6. Random Transaction Generator Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4210476)
Dropping a team in the standings if one of its players fails a drug test. Let’s say, 10 percent of the player’s suspension. Since Cabrera was suspended 50 games, the Giants would be docked five games in the standings. Oh, and since Mota was suspended 100 games, there goes another 10 games.

If you're the Houston Astros, do you decide to gamble in 2013 and just juice everybody to the gills and go for it?
I mean, what's the harm if you drop 5/10/15 more games behind the leaders. You know you weren't going to win anyways.
   7. bfan Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4210493)
If you're the Houston Astros, do you decide to gamble in 2013 and just juice everybody to the gills and go for it?
I mean, what's the harm if you drop 5/10/15 more games behind the leaders. You know you weren't going to win anyways.


If you are really into manipulation, you play 161 games and then put some juicer on your roster and have him pee into a cup, to drop some games and get a better draft position in the next year's draft. With this, soon enough, you would have 2 groups of teams; those that made the play-offs, and those that peed their way to 0-162.
   8. Tricky Dick Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:46 PM (#4210510)
There seems to be an assumption that organizations "turned a blind eye" to steroid use when a player tests positive, but what is the evidence for this? What can a major league team actually do to stop steroid use? They can't impose their own testing system on top of the MLB system set out in the CBA. I doubt that Melky Cabrera is injecting steroids in the middle of the clubhouse where the organization can see him. If an organization actually has evidence that a player is using steroids and doen't report it to MLB, then the team should be penalized or fined. But just making a general presumption that the team did something wrong doesn't make a bit of sense to me.

The only behaviorial impact on the baseball teams from his proposed penalties, that I can envision, is that teams will become extremely reluctant to sign free agents who give them any basis for "suspicion" that he might use steroids. It might mean that players who have a break out or career years will have difficulty finding buyers in the free agent market. That would end up penalizing players simply for "suspicion" which is unfair, and the opposite of the incentive you want to set up.
   9. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:52 PM (#4210518)
If you're the Houston Astros, do you decide to gamble in 2013 and just juice everybody to the gills and go for it?
I mean, what's the harm if you drop 5/10/15 more games behind the leaders. You know you weren't going to win anyways.


That's why it has to hurt monetarily, because the habitual and institutional cheating is going on entirely for the purpose of monetary gain. 5/10/15 more losses for the Astros might mean next to nothing to them, but if you docked the owners 5/10/15 percent of their total net revenue, the cheaters would find themselves permanently out of baseball so fast that heads would spin.
   10. Dale Sams Posted: August 17, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4210525)
Here's a crazy tin-foil hat idea that's so crazy it just might work. Want a break from having to pay the Crawford's and Well's of the world? Slip em a steroid mickey.

But seriously, the punishment is just fine the way it is. Want a bone? Fine. Teams have to keep paying the contract, but it goes to some fund or the other 29 teams.
   11. dejarouehg Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:05 PM (#4210533)
I thought Selig was going to come down on the Giants years ago when their blind-eye approach to Bonds was a little over-the-top. (Perhaps he realized the hypocrisy in that. Red Sox and Yankees were littered with offenders as well.)

I thought the perfect punishment was to force the Giants to give up their territorial claims on San Jose so the A's can move there and that franchise can be resurrected. (Even allow for minority cross-ownership so that would ease some of the supposed pain.)

I've never been to Northen CA so I don't know the particular nuances of their geographical dynamic but I would like to see the A's have a chance to play in a decent ballpark.
   12. Bourbon Samurai Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4210537)
The Giants are losing one of their best players for the stretch drive. That seems like pretty good punishment, and a strong inducement for the team to encourage players not to use.
   13. Dale Sams Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4210546)
And Melky may have cost himself some $50 million dollars. Yeah...I'd say things should sit pat.
   14. Danny Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:15 PM (#4210548)
Have the Giants known all season that Cabrera was juicing? I can't say that. But I can say this: They didn't want to know.

God, that's stupid.
   15. bfan Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:23 PM (#4210559)
The Giants are losing one of their best players for the stretch drive. That seems like pretty good punishment, and a strong inducement for the team to encourage players not to use.


Except that, if you believe that non-steriod Melky is replacement level, then the team's punishment (not having him) is the equivalent of merely making him stop using.
   16. Dale Sams Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4210564)
if you believe that non-steriod Melky is replacement level


I don't.
   17. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4210567)
And the only reason he was in the position to possibly make some $50 million in the first place was because he started cheating, so by cheating he in fact didn't really "cost" himself anything at all.
   18. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4210574)
Want a bone? Fine. Teams have to keep paying the contract, but it goes to some fund or the other 29 teams.


No. It should go into a drug-education fund. Someone has to think of the children.
   19. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4210581)
I think the team should be "punished" as well, but games in the standings or draconian roster spot stuff is too blunt an instrument, I think. How about they lose a draft pick, maybe indexed in draft order to how much a player actually contributed to the team? Melky, an All-Star, costs the team a first rounder, while Mota only costs the team a second-rounder.

I agree with Chris in #3 - give the teams an incentive to run a PED-free environment.
   20. bfan Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:35 PM (#4210582)
No. It should go into a drug-education fund. Someone has to think of the children.


Yes; there has to be a better way to mask use, and we must teach it.
   21. Mayor Blomberg Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4210585)
16 - Dale, better or worse than replacement level.

IF one wanted to increase the 'team' aspect of the penalty, and also tweak the union, I suppose, teams could be prevented from filling the player's roster spot.
   22. Bob Tufts Posted: August 17, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4210611)
Why has no one advocated public floggings, the rack or being put in the stocks in the town square? We're obviously a nationa of wusses!

PS - doesn't anyone find it odd that sportswriters are asking their readers in San Francisco, home to the hippie movement, Haight-Ashbury and aggressive medical marijuana practices to feel that they should have strong moral anti-drug emotions over Cabrera's use?
   23. Flynn Posted: August 17, 2012 at 02:06 PM (#4210623)
It's not like San Francisco particularly cares about steroids anyway. Bonds is a hero, always will be.
   24. JJ1986 Posted: August 17, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4210631)
MLBPA will never allow a lost roster slot like that.


What about a lost spot on the 40-man. That's worth a few thousand for a minor leaguer.
   25. Dale Sams Posted: August 17, 2012 at 02:43 PM (#4210682)
And the only reason he was in the position to possibly make some $50 million in the first place was because he started cheating, so by cheating he in fact didn't really "cost" himself anything at all.


We don't know that. Melky cost himself the chance to succeed without using steroids. His BABIP has exploded without increasing his HR rate much, if at all. I don't think steroids can put nearly 100 points on your BABIP alone unless you're banging 30 extra HRs, and even that won't do it.

I'd say Melky's success is a combination of steroids, luck, confidence and turning the corner on some obstacle curves at the plate.

And if I ran the Sox, I'd give him a pillow contract in a second.
   26. TDF, situational idiot Posted: August 17, 2012 at 02:46 PM (#4210684)
It's not like San Francisco the vast majority of fans particularly cares about steroids anyway
   27. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: August 17, 2012 at 02:57 PM (#4210700)
And the only reason he was in the position to possibly make some $50 million in the first place was because he started cheating, so by cheating he in fact didn't really "cost" himself anything at all.


We don't know that. Melky cost himself the chance to succeed without using steroids. His BABIP has exploded without increasing his HR rate much, if at all. I don't think steroids can put nearly 100 points on your BABIP alone unless you're banging 30 extra HRs, and even that won't do it.

I'd say Melky's success is a combination of steroids, luck, confidence and turning the corner on some obstacle curves at the plate.

I'd add that we also have no idea whether or not he was taking anything during the years that he stunk. We do know he was fat and out of shape, but steroids aren't some kind of magic pill that gives you muscle automatically if you don't put in the work to get stronger. (I leave aside the debate over how much adding strength makes someone a better hitter.)
   28. bobm Posted: August 17, 2012 at 02:59 PM (#4210702)
Point being, something not only needs to be done—something can be done. Something like this: Dropping a team in the standings if one of its players fails a drug test. Let’s say, 10 percent of the player’s suspension. Since Cabrera was suspended 50 games, the Giants would be docked five games in the standings. Oh, and since Mota was suspended 100 games, there goes another 10 games.

Harsh? Sure.


Don't harsh the Giants' mellow, dude.

Seriously, the moral hazard relating to teams' incentives is a problem, but this is as dumb IMO as removing Cabrera from the BA title race or trying to quantify the "steroids discount" to a player's career statistics.
   29. bfan Posted: August 17, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4210717)
(I leave aside the debate over how much adding strength makes someone a better hitter.)


I really don't want to open some already hashed out 800 post thread, but there really is a debate? All of the sudden 60+ HR seasons (from guys who are pretty clearly users) disappear, and we are debating how added strength made them better hitters?
   30. Bob Tufts Posted: August 17, 2012 at 03:19 PM (#4210726)
Fareed Zakaria believes that Melky's suspension should be shortened to one week.
   31. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: August 17, 2012 at 03:28 PM (#4210747)
Point being, something not only needs to be done—something can be done. Something like this: Dropping a team in the standings if one of its players fails a drug test. Let’s say, 10 percent of the player’s suspension. Since Cabrera was suspended 50 games, the Giants would be docked five games in the standings. Oh, and since Mota was suspended 100 games, there goes another 10 games.

Has there ever been a dumber idea re: steroids punishment? I'm struggling to think of one.
   32. The elusive Robert Denby Posted: August 17, 2012 at 03:39 PM (#4210766)
I'm not going to RTFA, but does he explain who gets stuck with the phantom losses? That kind of stuff will mess with the end of the season accounting. Maybe they'll just be team losses. Holy crap, this guy just revolutionized pitching stats!
   33. Dale Sams Posted: August 17, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4210774)
All of the sudden 60+ HR seasons (from guys who are pretty clearly users) disappear, and we are debating how added strength made them better hitters?


Since neither Melky and Ryan exhibited that...of course we are. And he said how MUCH.
   34. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: August 17, 2012 at 03:52 PM (#4210795)
I really wish there was some way to get an accurate percentage of those who do and who do not care.

ESPN's Should Barry Bonds get in the Hall? internet poll currently stands at 55% No, 45% Yes with nearly 56,000 votes cast.

Make of that what you will.
   35. JJ1986 Posted: August 17, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4210797)
All of the sudden 60+ HR seasons (from guys who are pretty clearly users)


You shouldn't accuse Maris like that.
   36. bfan Posted: August 17, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4210799)
And he said how MUCH.


well, here is your answer...some.
   37. bfan Posted: August 17, 2012 at 03:56 PM (#4210802)
Fareed Zakaria believes that Melky's suspension should be shortened to one week.


Actually, Fareed has a column on this very topic, and here is what Fareed said:

"NASCAR deducts points toward the Chase for the Sprint Cup, its postseason, for a failed post-race inspection. That happened in July to Tony Stewart. In European soccer, various leagues dock points from teams for reasons including financial trouble, crowd behavior and -- yes -- fair play.

Point being, something not only needs to be done -- something can be done. Something like this: Dropping a team in the standings if one of its players fails a drug test. Let's say, 10 percent of the player's suspension. Since Cabrera was suspended 50 games, the Giants would be docked five games in the standings. Oh, and since Mota was suspended 100 games, there goes another 10 games."

   38. Bob Tufts Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:18 PM (#4210833)
Bfan - if you appropriately docked CNN ratings for Zakaria's transgression, the number would turn negative.
   39. zachtoma Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4210834)
Actually, Fareed has a column on this very topic, and here is what Fareed said:


Hilarious. Bravo #37
   40. SouthSideRyan Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:24 PM (#4210845)
Doyel's act rings a bit hollow considering what a Calipari jock sniffer he is.
   41. Bob Tufts Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:35 PM (#4210858)
Makling someone sniff Calipari's jock as a punishment for a postive drug test would truly work as a deterrent.

What would the punishments be in games taken away for:

cutting the baseball?
spitballs?
corking a bat?
illegally stealing signs?
faking that you were hit by a pitch?
getting in a beanball battle with another team and injuring a star player?
getting in a fight with another team and injuring a star player?

At what point would one cross the treshold from merely being sanctioned by the MLB office of discipline to the forfeiture schemes that you advocate?
   42. Joe OBrien Posted: August 17, 2012 at 04:49 PM (#4210881)
What exactly were the Giants supposed to do that would have stopped Melky from using? Threaten to suspend him 50 games without pay if he got caught?

I mean, if you want to accuse them of coddling a PED user, we can talk about Guillermo Mota. But of course no one cares because he isn't contending for the batting title.
   43. Tippecanoe Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4210905)
What exactly were the Giants supposed to do that would have stopped Melky from using?


How are they supposed to know in the first place? Has the union agreed to randomized testing by the teams themselves?
   44. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4210948)
Doyel's act rings a bit hollow considering what a Calipari jock sniffer he is.

I'm not familiar with his views on Calipari, but this does surprise me consider the hard on he's had for UConn being held accountable for their shenanigans over the years. Or is it just ironic admiration considering how much every assumes Calipari just disregards the rules?
   45. Bob Tufts Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:32 PM (#4210949)
Should the Orioles be awarded Game One of the 1996 ALCS because a fan cheated?
   46. HMS Moses Taylor Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:35 PM (#4210951)
And so I googled a column on that and...Ugh.
   47. Tippecanoe Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:47 PM (#4210958)
Also, don't forget those 2004 Red Sox. They should obviously forfeit thelast four games of the post-season for "looking the other way" with Manny. And just so no one accuses me of obvious Cardinal's fan bias, I'm willing to lop 10 wins off from the 1998 Redbirds.
   48. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 17, 2012 at 05:52 PM (#4210963)
#1, please don't say you don't give a damn about cheating. At least say something like "I don't think using steroids is cheating", but don't say that you don't care about cheating. This isn't the old WWWF, where cheaters were the cool participants.
   49. Srul Itza Posted: August 17, 2012 at 06:00 PM (#4210973)
#1, please don't say you don't give a damn about cheating. At least say something like "I don't think using steroids is cheating", but don't say that you don't care about cheating. This isn't the old WWWF, where cheaters were the cool participants.


Why? Cheating has a long and honored history in baseball, from electronically stealing signs to scuffing balls to corking bats to hip-checking the baseball to man-handling runners. Give me the rogues over the choir boys every time. If you ain't cheatin', you ain't competin'; then again, it ain't cheating if you don't get caught.
   50. Walt Davis Posted: August 17, 2012 at 07:23 PM (#4211065)
Teams have to keep paying the contract, but it goes to some fund or the other 29 teams.

I was gonna suggest this, although you have to put in a minimum fine of, say, $1-2 M to create a deterrent around pre-arb/bench players. But, yeah, if you want to give teams a disincentive to sign guys who they suspect are using, then you put in a financial disincentive.

However, the MLBPA -- and each of us as good Americans (and wannabe Americans north of the border) -- should not stand for any such thing. After a player has been punished, he should retain the full market rights as any other players. While surely previous PED use will reduce the value of the player's next contract (at least on average), there's no call for adding an extra disincentive to signing such a player. That guy's already lost 50-100 games of pay. He did the crime, he's done his time.

And #8 ... ya mighta should have changed your screen name before posting that. :-)

   51. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 17, 2012 at 08:02 PM (#4211088)
49, fair enough, but when baseball sets the penalty for this kind of cheating at 50 games for a first offense, you can't complain. Not that you did. I mean "you" in the general sense.
   52. TomH Posted: August 17, 2012 at 09:22 PM (#4211157)
If one of your players is caught cheating, Willie Bloomquist has to play his position and bat 7th for you. Or Neifi Perez, but then Dusty might slip one of his rookies some PEDs.
   53. McCoy Posted: August 17, 2012 at 10:32 PM (#4211173)
If one of your players is caught cheating, Willie Bloomquist has to play his position and bat 7th for you. Or Neifi Perez, but then Dusty might slip one of his rookies some PEDs.

Since it involves union members they'll have to get the union's okay on it. Far simpler to avoid the union altogether. If one of your players is caught cheating then Wally Backman has to be your manager, Wendall Kim your third base coach, Maury Wills your hitting coach, and Lenny Dysktra in charge of the box office.

I can't think of a really brutal pitching coach.
   54. Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip Posted: August 17, 2012 at 10:59 PM (#4211178)
ESPN's Should Barry Bonds get in the Hall? internet poll currently stands at 55% No, 45% Yes with nearly 56,000 votes cast.

Make of that what you will.


The map on the ESPN site breaks it down by state, and the "electoral college" vote is 465 against Bonds, 68 for him (California, Nevada, Unabomber and Delaware), and 4 undecided (Hawaii is 50-50). The international vote is also nixing him by 56% to 44%, though if he wants to go into exile I'm sure he could find some country that'd take him.
   55.     Hey Gurl Posted: August 17, 2012 at 11:07 PM (#4211182)
And what is the split among people who actually follow baseball?
   56. tshipman Posted: August 18, 2012 at 12:47 AM (#4211200)
Man, #### this guy.
   57. Walt Davis Posted: August 18, 2012 at 02:57 AM (#4211215)
Wally Backman has to be your manager

What, is Jim Essian too busy or something?
   58. Walt Davis Posted: August 18, 2012 at 02:59 AM (#4211216)
The following is a better joke than my first joke:

If one of your players is caught cheating then Wally Backman has to be your manager, Wendall Kim your third base coach, Maury Wills your hitting coach, and Lenny Dysktra in charge of the box office.

And Brian Sabean your GM.
   59. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: August 18, 2012 at 06:17 AM (#4211227)
And Jose Canseco dating your daughter.
   60. Ron J2 Posted: August 18, 2012 at 11:22 AM (#4211287)
#19 (and others)

give the teams an incentive to run a PED-free environment.


What precisely are teams supposed to do? They aren't allowed to have their own (presumably more frequent) testing regime. (that's not a guess. This was settled in arbitration years ago)

Private surveillance of players? That's basically the way it works in cycling now. Cyclists have to account for their whereabouts 24*365. A few years back a cyclist was fired simply for going to Mexico.

That said, I think you're looking at some pretty big hurdles. You can bet that the PA would instantly file a grievance, and I'm reasonably confident they'd win. I suppose it's something MLB could bargain for, but I'm pretty sure they don't want to.




   61. Ron J2 Posted: August 18, 2012 at 11:32 AM (#4211295)
#37 However they specifically did not dock a team (Russia) for using a player who subsequently failed a drug test.

Quoting from the response to an appeal from Wales.

"In addition, and according to Uefa regulations in the case of a doping offence, the punishment anyway only applies to the player himself and not to the team.

"This is further backed-up by the World Anti-Doping Code which states that in the event of one member testing positive for a prohibitive substance in team sports it is the individual and not the team that is liable."

Link
   62. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 18, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4211394)
Cyclists have to account for their whereabouts 24*365.


And they still dope.

World Anti-Doping Code which states that in the event of one member testing positive for a prohibitive substance in team sports it is the individual and not the team that is liable.


But the IOC still stripped Marion Jones' relay teammates of their gold medals.
   63. Joey B. has reignited his October #Natitude Posted: August 18, 2012 at 02:16 PM (#4211409)
The international vote is also nixing him by 56% to 44%, though if he wants to go into exile I'm sure he could find some country that'd take him.

I hear that Ecuador is a pretty welcoming country for asylum seekers.
   64. Misirlou has S.C.M.O.D.S Posted: August 18, 2012 at 02:54 PM (#4211440)
MLBPA will never allow a lost roster slot like that.


So, pay them off. The replacement guy is probably a minimum wage guy, so make the team pay $150,000 to the players retirement fund or something.
   65. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: August 21, 2012 at 12:26 AM (#4213383)
So, pay them off. The replacement guy is probably a minimum wage guy, so make the team pay $150,000 to the players retirement fund or something.


Or the PED player's whole salary, minus the replacement player's.

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