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Monday, February 17, 2014

Doyel: Where is Derek Jeter among all-time greats? Higher than I thought

Not even the Survival Zone can save Doy-El’s latest!

Defensively? Jeter isn’t in the top five or top 10 or maybe even the top 25 in that category. And defense is part of baseball. A big part. Like, almost half the game. So if we’re going to measure defense, then I can’t sit here and tell you Jeter is a top-five shortstop all time, because how do you quantify what Ozzie Smith and Pee Wee Reese and Luis Aparicio and a whole host of other Hall of Fame shortstops gave on defense, compared to what they didn’t give on offense, and make a reasonable comparison between them and Derek Jeter? You can’t. Well, maybe you can. You can look at WAR and trust its accuracy as an end-all measurement, but I can’t and wouldn’t even try. Too muddled.

But offensively, the numbers are clear. Only two Hall of Fame shortstops have a higher career batting average than Jeter’s .312, and both of them—Honus Wagner, Arky Vaughan—played before integration. (Vaughan played 14 years in the big leagues, the final two coming in 1947 and ‘48.) That’s not to say that any player, by definition, can’t be considered an all-time great if he played before Jackie Robinson broke the color barrier in 1947. But come on. The competition increased when the pool of players was widened. Did it increase at the same level that expansion watered it down? Good question. Don’t know. But don’t ask me to ignore that Honus Wagner and Arky Vaughn put up the numbers they put up against mostly white, Anglo competition. That happened. It matters. How much does it matter? Don’t know. Neither do you.

Jeter’s career .381 on-base percentage is the best by any shortstop (minimum: 3,000 plate appearances) in the last 50 years except for Alex Rodriguez, who cheated to get to .384 and therefore doesn’t make my list of shortstops who arguably were better offensively than Jeter:

Honus Wagner. Ernie Banks. Cal Ripken. And, um, that’s it.

And I’m not sold on Ripken. Fun fact: His .447 slugging was exactly .001 better than Jeter (.446), and his OPS (.788) was 40 points below Jeter’s .828. But he had a lot more home runs and RBI, and a lot less strikeouts, so OK. I’ll put Ripken ahead of Jeter. Same with Wagner and Banks. But not Robin Yount, who spent barely half his career at shortstop. (Same goes for Ernie Banks, but his greatness happened primarily at short; Yount’s was spread between SS and CF.)

Wagner. Banks. Ripken. Jeter. Those are the top four offensive shortstops of all time.

Odd, right?

Repoz Posted: February 17, 2014 at 03:28 PM | 36 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, sabermetrics, yankees

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   1. GuyMcGuffin Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:06 PM (#4658126)
*Opens link in New Window*

*Crtl-F "Larkin"
Zero results returned*

*Crtl-F "Trammell"
Zero results returned*

*Closes New Window*
   2. Knock on any Iorg Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:12 PM (#4658129)
Crap. If this is a prelude to the deluge to which we will be treated all season long then it's time to tune out, turn off, and drop in (to a community softball game). I can see the lipstick marks on Jeter's butt all the way from here. (Wow, that is a pretty shapely butt, I must say. no homo.)
   3. JE (Jason) Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:15 PM (#4658130)
Derek Jeter is one of the top-five shortstops of all time.

Wagner. Banks. Ripken. Jeter. Those are the top four offensive shortstops of all time.

Editor! Editor!
   4. JE (Jason) Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:17 PM (#4658133)
And in between...
You can look at WAR and trust its accuracy as an end-all measurement, but I can't and wouldn't even try. Too muddled.

Solution? I know: Ignore defense altogether.
   5. Guapo Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:39 PM (#4658145)
This is quite possibly the second most insightful article I've read on cbsports.com today, but I think we all have to agree that it can't hold a candle to "Raccoon watches Yankees during spring training"
   6. Ron J2 Posted: February 17, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4658155)
#4 The way I try and do this is to figure out the offensive difference and then figure out how likely it is that defense covers the difference. That's why I like the modular nature of WAR.

And he's pretty clearly talking career. Arky Vaughan for instance is pretty clearly a better hitter than Jeter. It's equally clear that Jeter accumulated more value at the plate.

On a related note:

Here's the peak list sorted by dWAR in the 5 best season (selected by overall WAR)

I wouldn't get too hung up on the precise numbers, but I think most align with their contemporary reputation.

The most surprising to me are Travis Jackson (to the point that I'm going to check for possible data entry problems) and Banks. Most accounts of Dahlen focus on his rep as an airhead but that's not inconsistent with his being a generally fine defensive player (error bars for 19th century players have to be huge though)

Player            dWAR
Ozzie Smith       16.3
Cal Ripken        15.3
Lou Boudreau      14.0
Travis Jackson    13.7
Dave Bancroft     13.6
Phil Rizzuto      13.6
Rabbit Maranville 13.4
Bobby Wallace     13.1
George Davis      12.8
Bert Campaneris   12.0
Luis Aparicio     11.8
Pee
-Wee Reese     11.6
Bil Dahlen        10.8
Rico Petrocelli   10.6
Ernie Banks       10.4
Joe Cronin        10.2
Jack Glasscock    10.0
Dave Concepcion    9.9
Jim Fregosi        9.8
Tony Fernandez     9.2
Luke Appling       9.1
Honus Wagner       8.9
Hughie Jennings    8.9
Alex Rodriguez     8.3
Alan Trammell      7.7
Vern Stephens      7.6
Robin Yount        6.5
Arky Vaughan       6.0
Joe Sewell         5.2
Barry Larkin       4.8
Nomar Garciaparra  4.8
Cecil Travis       4.3
Roy Smalley        4.3
Denis Menke        2.8
Derek Jeter        0.3 


   7. G.W.O. Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:05 PM (#4658158)
#5 - I now want a Firefox plugin that replaces every story with "Jeter" in the headline with a link to "Raccoon watches Yankees during Spring Training"
   8. Fernigal McGunnigle has become a merry hat Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:16 PM (#4658163)
This is the top 15 in WAR at each field position (50%+ games there, 1901 to the present), expressed as a ratio of WAR to the WAR of the player who's #1 at that position:

rank   ss     2b       3b      1b   lf/rf     cf       c
1       1       1       1       1       1       1       1
2    .843    .976    .902    .856    .996    .970    .928
3    .680    .790    .854    .825    .871    .860    .911
4    .675    .706    .829    .707    .785    .704    .909
5    .657    .637    .799    .638    .754    .536    .790
6    .644    .589    .735    .630    .677    .502    .788
7    .631    .559    .663    .604    .660    .436    .744
8    .620    .552    .662    .572    .656    .434    .711
9    .620    .533    .656    .551    .588    .427    .692
10   .585    .526    .637    .544    .578    .407    .670
11   .584    .517    .619    .534    .567    .402    .622
12   .557    .511    .590    .516    .453    .390    .613
13   .490    .485    .585    .512    .448    .386    .611
14   .487    .458    .577    .501    .446    .362    .599
15   .474    .450    .549    .485    .443    .357    .594 


What makes the Great Jeter Debate so potentially interesting is that the gap between #3 and #9 at shortstop is the smallest gap of that size in the top 15 at any position. And Jeter's position in the ratings is so dependent on very uncertain defensive numbers. So you've got a uniquely close bunching, with a guy whose precise rating is highly dependent on a pretty contentious rating. Jeter's #7 at the moment; you could probably make a coherent argument that would place him anywhere from 3 to 12. The only other players I can think of who are near the top of their position and yet so variable are Negro Leaguers for whom the statistical record is more suggestive than definitive. Jeter's unique. Despite his best efforts, old Calm Eyes has turned out to be interesting after all.
   9. PreservedFish Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:27 PM (#4658170)
This is quite possibly the second most insightful article I've read on cbsports.com today, but I think we all have to agree that it can't hold a candle to "Raccoon watches Yankees during spring training"


Why on earth does this not have its own thread?
   10. jdennis Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:49 PM (#4658178)
#6

Jackson was a great defensive shortstop. If there were such things as GG at the time, once Bancroft fell off Jackson would have won them every year. Maranville was a bit overrated, but in his peak he has at least one ginormous year, so his may be skewed by that. Based on my study, I can verify George Davis and Jack Glasscock were both good. With season size and what not he's not on there, but in terms of relative to the league, George Wright was much better than his contemporaries. As for the not so good, Germany Smith was average and Ed McKean was Jeter like with a poor RF. Those are what I remember off the top.

The shocking one to me is 5-year peak Hughie Jennings, of all people, has as low as an 8.9. dWAR totals are low for the 19th century in general I've noticed. But Jennings is like the peakiest player ever and in his peak he led all SS in RF and FPCT by a mile on both. I highly doubt any advanced PBP stuff would make up the gulf between he and the others during that stretch. I'm surprised he's not at the top of the list. For example, he should definitely be above Davis, who was much more of a solid, career-good type of fielder like Wagner and an also-ran in Jennings' peak run. I am surprised that Banks is high though.
   11. Ron J2 Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:57 PM (#4658182)
#10 in case it's not clear what I did was find the best 5 years at SS by WAR and then figure out what the dWAR in those years. Since offensive and defensive primes don't always perfectly align this method can give some idiosyncratic result.

   12. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: February 17, 2014 at 06:00 PM (#4658183)
I don't know how this guy assesses things but with respect to yount here are some facts.

--played 1479 of his career games at shortstop. which is more than half his career total for games played in the field

--of his 4 fine offensive seasons 3 were while playing regularly at shortstop (anything over 6 offensive war by my reckoning, if folks want to drop to 5 then the tally is 4 and 2)






   13. DanG Posted: February 17, 2014 at 06:23 PM (#4658191)
Most seasons with at least two Batting Wins and 81 games at SS

Rk                  Yrs From   To   Age
1      Honus Wagner  10 1903 1912 29
-38
2      Arky Vaughan   9 1933 1943 21
-31
3       Derek Jeter   7 1998 2009 24
-35
4    Alex Rodriguez   7 1996 2003 20
-27
5        Joe Cronin   7 1930 1941 23
-34
6        Cal Ripken   6 1983 1991 22
-30
7       Ernie Banks   6 1955 1960 24
-29
8      Barry Larkin   5 1991 1998 27
-34
9     Alan Trammell   5 1983 1990 25
-32
10     Luke Appling   5 1936 1949 29
-42
11   Jack Glasscock   5 1882 1890 24
-32 
   14. vivaelpujols Posted: February 17, 2014 at 06:28 PM (#4658195)
3 Derek Jeter 7 1998 2009 24-35
4 Alex Rodriguez 7 1996 2003 20-27


God ARod is so much better than Jeter it's not even funny.
   15. ptodd Posted: February 17, 2014 at 07:19 PM (#4658216)
Jeter played in MLB's greatest offensive era since 1930. Have to adjust those stats for this. By OPS+ Jeter ranks 5th behind Arod, Hanley, Nomar and Banks. Close behind him (within 2 points) are Larkin, Yount, Fregosi, Ripken.

Jeter is a HOF'er, but lets not make him out to be greater than he was
   16. ptodd Posted: February 17, 2014 at 07:21 PM (#4658219)
13. DanG Posted: February 17, 2014 at 05:23 PM (#4658191)
Most seasons with at least two Batting Wins and 81 games at SS


Now adjust that for offensive environment.

Also, seeing as Arod was pushed off SS by Jeter, its a bit of a cheat for him.
   17. Baldrick Posted: February 17, 2014 at 07:30 PM (#4658224)
Shorter this article: if you discount players who played before 1947 and players who used PEDs and players who I just ignored because I wanted to, Jeter might be the best!
   18. DanG Posted: February 17, 2014 at 07:37 PM (#4658226)
Now adjust that for offensive environment.
It is. However, you might want to adjust for differences in schedule length.

Most Batting Wins, 1000+ G at SS

Rk              Player BtWins  oWAR OPS+    PA From   To
1         Honus Wagner  72.92 122.4  151 11748 1897 1917
2       Alex Rodriguez  57.77 112.9  143 11344 1994 2013
3         Arky Vaughan  35.91  70.9  136  7722 1932 1948
4          Derek Jeter  26.15  94.0  117 11968 1995 2013
5          Ernie Banks  25.62  62.0  122 10394 1953 1971
6         George Davis  25.45  70.5  121 10178 1890 1909
7           Joe Cronin  22.65  63.8  119  8840 1926 1945
8         Luke Appling  21.75  70.3  113 10254 1930 1950
9          Robin Yount  21.20  82.2  115 12249 1974 1993
10        Lou Boudreau  19.84  50.3  120  7024 1938 1952
11          Cal Ripken  19.50  77.2  112 12883 1981 2001
12        Barry Larkin  19.16  67.5  116  9057 1986 2004
13   Nomar Garciaparra  17.39  42.4  124  6116 1996 2009
14       Vern Stephens  15.24  45.3  119  7241 1941 1955
15         Bill Dahlen  13.37  62.3  110 10405 1891 1911
16         Jim Fregosi  12.59  50.0  113  7403 1961 1978
17       Alan Trammell  12.40  62.5  110  9376 1977 1996 
   19. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 17, 2014 at 07:37 PM (#4658227)
Derek Jeter is one of the top-five shortstops of all time.

Wagner. Banks. Ripken. Jeter. Those are the top four offensive shortstops of all time.


Editor! Editor!


It's the infield version of "Ten Little Indians." Pretty soon Ripken will "accidentally" get his head bashed in by falling stonework, and Jeter will be one of the top three shortstops of all time. Look out, Ernie! It's a great day to kill two.
   20. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: February 17, 2014 at 07:38 PM (#4658228)
This is quite possibly the second most insightful article I've read on cbsports.com today, but I think we all have to agree that it can't hold a candle to "Raccoon watches Yankees during spring training"

Why on earth does this not have its own thread?


It's just a regular raccoon, not an all-time great raccoon.
   21. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: February 17, 2014 at 07:59 PM (#4658233)
The raccoon link is taking me to a blank article dated December 31, 1969. It was taken down for not showing enough respect to Jeter.
   22. Walt Davis Posted: February 17, 2014 at 09:00 PM (#4658256)
Grrr ...

List like those in #18 just aren't that useful (no offense, it's a standard list).

ARod is now at a point where exactly half of his career PAs came as a SS (5667 vs 5677). God only knows how BatWins is calculated but he had 30 in the years he played SS. That is closer to Banks (23 in about 5200 PA) than to Wagner. Lou Bourdreau had 20 BtWins in about 7000 PA, Robin Yount had 9 in about 6600 PA -- more than half of Yount's BtWins came in CF. Nomar had all of his career batwins in his roughly 4500 PA at SS.

It's difficult but when we put together lists of great hitters/players, we always try to find some way to balance peak and career -- some way to rank Greenberg relative to Yaz. But break it down into position and we suddenly lose that ability.

Ernie Banks was only a peak SS, his time at 1B has nothing to do with where he ranks among SS. Yount, Boudreau, Fregosi, Nomar, Vaughan and, yes, ARod are also peak/prime-only SS. They are to SS as Greenberg is to all-time hitter. That means they are to Jeter as Greenberg is to Yaz or Murray.

I don't necessarily have a problem with the conclusion that the great peaks of ARod and Banks are sufficient to put them ahead of Jeter or Larkin or whoever on an all-time SS list. It is however laughable to claim that Yount should be higher on any SS list than Larkin. Yount probably holds his own with them on peak-value as a SS but then he stays right there when it comes to career while they add another 10-15 BatWins. It seems particularly silly to give any value to non-SS time for guys like Banks and Yount who were moved because they were deemed no longer physically capable of playing the position (or staying healthy while doing so). At least with ARod you can make a decent case that he was still a decent-good SS when he was moved so the alternative reality is at least plausible.

CFs, 1Bs and 3Bs are not SSs. Why is that even up for debate? I know, dead horse.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: February 17, 2014 at 09:17 PM (#4658263)
To give some idea:

Banks, dWAR through age 30: 12.3, about 1.5 per full year
Banks, dWAR from age 31: -7.4, about -.9 per full year

That started immediatly with a -.6 and -.7 in his first two years at 1B. He then had a good year but then was -1.2 and -1.3. Those are of course decent numbers for a 1B (+9 Rfield in his first 5 seasons there) but that's why average 1B don't play SS.

Yount's numbers are much the same. From 22-28, he had 11.1 dWAR, so about 1.5 per year. For his first 3 years in CF, he's put at about -4 dWAR and is -7 for everything after age 28. bWAR does not like his defense in CF.

ARod did maintain for a bit. He had 7 dWAR from 22-27. He had 1.8 dWAR in his first year at 3B and has been at 0 ever since. So even there it's not clear -- guys with 0 dWAR are not usually allowed to play much SS unless their name is Jeter.

For ages 29-33, expansion era, at least 500 games at SS (has its own bit of issue there too, blame P-I), the only 3 with negative WAR are Jeter, Lugo and Raffy Ramirez. Eckstein, Renteria and Aurilia are three other recent guys under 2 WAR. Even Tejada managed a 2.7 over those 5 years. Sure, obviously, you'd have lived with ARod's defense for his hitting but if you had a good SS around (not named Jeter), you might well move him.

(I know in ARod's case there's the possibility that, having moved to 3B, he took the opportunity to bulk up more, hurting his defense but leading to some even bigger offensive seasons. Left at SS, maybe he doesn't bulk up and remains a decent defensive SS putting up 130-140 OPS+ instead of 170. Beer and tacos.)

Anyway, Yount and Banks stopped playing SS because they couldn't play it anymore. Nomar and Bourdreau and some others stopped playing it because they couldn't play ML baseball at all anymore. Why blindly compare them to guys who were able to keep playing it?
   24. Walt Davis Posted: February 17, 2014 at 09:42 PM (#4658274)
I will say I think Jeter is one of the hardest ones to place in an all-time ranking. His peak is not that impressive, his longevity is very impressive, his offense is outstanding for a SS, his defense is terrible and it's not clear that he "deserved" to stay at SS all that time -- i.e. from age 30+, his dWAR looks a lot like Banks/Yount. So, despite what I said above, maybe those guys are OK comps for Jeter if you believe b-r's dWAR:

Banks 68 WAR in 10,400 PA
Jeter 72 WAR in 11,900 PA
Yount 77 WAR in 12,300 PA

(by the way, I have no real problems with considering Yount the better baseball career than Banks, it's only considering him the better SS that riles me. Yount was a much more productive CF than Banks was a 1B.)

Stretching that comp by trying to make the PA a bit more equal, I chop off the early years of Yount (he wasn't that good then, Ernie didn't play in the majors at those ages anyway) ... similarly I'll cut off the last few years for Jeter.

Banks 68 WAR in 10,000 PA (23-38)
Jeter 68 WAR in 9,800 PA (22-35)
Yount 73 WAR in 9,900 PA (22-37)

So there ya go -- the answer to the "what if Jeter had been moved" question. :-) Jeter = Banks plus another 2+ full seasons of meh = a little worse than Yount's career. (Jeter's aged "meh" about the same as Yount's young "meh" in WAR terms). The shape of Banks' and Jeter's careers is not similar however as Banks was high peak, sustained mediocrity while Jeter is more really good for a really long time.
   25. Guapo Posted: February 17, 2014 at 10:03 PM (#4658288)
Breaking News: Raccoon knocks over Yankees' garbage can, discovers needles labeled "If found, please return to Biogenesis"
   26. Publius Publicola Posted: February 17, 2014 at 10:19 PM (#4658293)
Ron, you missed Burleson. He had 10.9 dWAR in his best 5.
   27. Publius Publicola Posted: February 17, 2014 at 10:23 PM (#4658295)
It pisses me off that I have to pay for spring training tickets while they let ####### raccoons in for free.

That raccoon has that look on his face that says "He missed the tag! HE MISSED THE TAG!"
   28. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: February 17, 2014 at 10:56 PM (#4658312)
Except for 2008 and 2013, the Yankees have been to the postseason every year since Jeter joined the team. Jeter holds MLB postseason records for games played (158), plate appearances (734), at-bats (650), hits (200), singles (143), doubles (32), triples (5), runs scored (111), total bases (302) and strikeouts (135). Jeter is also third in home runs (20), fourth in runs batted in (61), fifth in base on balls (66) and sixth stolen bases (18).

The 18 out of 20 seasons in the playoffs thing, is pretty incredible.

Especially when you consider Banks played 19 years without getting to any. Or Yaz only getting there twice in 23. Different system entirely.
   29. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: February 17, 2014 at 11:14 PM (#4658314)
Especially when you consider Banks played 19 years without getting to any. Or Yaz only getting there twice in 23.

Well, if Yaz hadn't dogged it in the most important at-bat of his career, he would've made it thrice. Can't argue with the facts. (/ducks)
   30. Ron J2 Posted: February 18, 2014 at 08:57 AM (#4658359)
#10 The major issue with range factor is what James called false normalization. The basic concept is that no matter how poor a defensive team you put out there you will eventually record 27 outs per 9 innings.

What's more, if you happen to have a few plus defenders they'll probably be the guys recording the outs.

So all of the modern yarfs (yet another range factor system) attempt to estimate balls in play and distribution of chances.

Another obvious issue is schedule length. I've deliberately not opted to adjust for the fact that the 1894 Orioles only played 128 games for instance. That's probably the bigger issue.
   31. zonk Posted: February 18, 2014 at 10:25 AM (#4658395)
I say this as a Cubs fan and someone who still leans a bit towards the Jeter is a great - one of the greatest all-time - SSs, but still tends to be overrated smidge... I'd have no problem ranking him above Banks. Banks fell off the defensive cliff pretty quickly - odd that a team as historically poor at recognizing talent saw fit to move Banks when he hit 30... and before you think "Well, Kessinger was a pretty good glove" -- it was actually Andre Rodgers, who was no slouch, but wasn't really a plus defensive SS -- who manned it for 3-4 years before Kessinger broke in.

I'll take Banks' SS peak over Jeter, but peak+career, OK - I'll take Jeter.

I guess I would just say that the gulf between him and Wagner is laughably big and I think the gulf between him and Ripken is large enough that it's not really in need of debate.

He's the bizarro Ozzie Smith - or maybe more than bizarro, as it made perfect sense to keep Smith at SS up to the end because he was still plusplus defensively.

Basically, what Jeter's mystique bought him is a lot more time at SS than might have/historically was given to other HoF caliber SSs... He's a no doubt HoFer if he moves to 3B or CF/LF earlier in his career.

In fact, the really odd thing about Jeter -- and maybe it goes to show the failings of dWAR -- is that he had 3 positive years of dWAR... age 23 and 24, and then the weird 2009/age 35. However, even in his other years -- he never quite made it to terrible... his worst showing was a -1.9 and he was generally right around -1. Given the position adjustment inherent, that's not a terrible SS, defensively. In fact, it would be perfectly fine for most teams to say that they could live with a -0.5 to -1 defensive SS if he's putting up 4-5 wins consistently on offense (and he did). It's just that 1)the Yankees aren't most teams, and 2)most of the yammering over Jeter comes from the fact that so many people try and tried to claim that he was a plus defensive SS when he really wasn't (for the most part).
   32. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: February 19, 2014 at 12:21 AM (#4658818)
In fact, the really odd thing about Jeter -- and maybe it goes to show the failings of dWAR -- is that he had 3 positive years of dWAR... age 23 and 24, and then the weird 2009/age 35. However, even in his other years -- he never quite made it to terrible... his worst showing was a -1.9 and he was generally right around -1. Given the position adjustment inherent, that's not a terrible SS, defensively.

I think you have the adjustment inherent in dWAR backwards. He is getting 8-10 runs a season credit for just suiting up at SS in there. That -1.9 dWAR works out to 27 runs below an average SS. Caveats for defensive stats apply, but that is the 6th worst season ever recorded by a player playing at least 90% at short. Worst ever is -33. -27 is really fucking terrible.
   33. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: February 19, 2014 at 08:35 AM (#4658864)
But of course, he doesn't get those 8-10 runs for just suiting up at SS because somebody decided to go easy on him. He gets them because somebody figured out that just suiting up at SS is worth 8-10 runs a season. See? It's a floor wax AND a desert topping!
   34. BDC Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:43 AM (#4658910)
In a sense, though, "worst shortstop" is like "lowest peak in the Himalayas." Not only does something have to fill that position, it's still pretty good compared to the sandhills of Delaware.

And as several have said, Jeter is only the extreme of a type. Teams had already established that you could take Jeff Blauser, say – a minus SS but a good hitter – and not only start him at shortstop but win pennants in the process. Jeter is worse than Blauser on defense but better on offense, on balance better overall.

As Walt notes, it's just aggravating that Jeter was winning Gold Gloves (Blauser didn't). OTOH you have to note that these are the same voters who gave Michael Young a Gold Glove.
   35. Ron J2 Posted: February 19, 2014 at 10:46 AM (#4658912)
#26 Oh I'm sure I missed plenty of others. He didn't make the peak list.

But my explanation of method was obviously unclear. I did not look for 5 best years by dWAR. I start by looking for 5 best years by WAR and then figure out the dWAR in those year.

And by that method, Burleson comes out with WAR of 17.0, oWAR of 13.4 and dWAR of 8.5. Which is why he didn't make the list. Peak wasn't good enough.

   36. alilisd Posted: February 19, 2014 at 05:50 PM (#4659257)
However, even in his other years -- he never quite made it to terrible... his worst showing was a -1.9 and he was generally right around -1. Given the position adjustment inherent, that's not a terrible SS, defensively.


Um, yeah, what Fancy Pants said. If you're talking about SS D, I don't think you would use dWAR, you would use fielding runs; there's no need to make a positional adjustment because they all play the same position. In 1996, 1999, 2000, 2001, 2002, 2003, 2006, 2007, 2011, and 2012 he was the worst SS in the AL; in 2005, 2008, and 2010 he was the second worst. Parameters were qualified for the batting title and at least 70% of games at SS.

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