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Wednesday, April 16, 2008

Dugout Central: Ehrke: Craig Messmer is Not the Next Bill James

This will leave Nathaniel Stoltz flipping Pancake Flops!

If a fool and his money are destined to soon part company then I suppose I’m a fool. I recently purchased – for $17.95 + tax – Stat One by Craig Messmer. Billed on the front cover as “A New System for Rating Baseball’s All-Time Greatest Players” the book appeared dangerously irresistible and in a moment of impulse buying I and my $17.95 (plus tax!) parted forever.

...Perhaps Messmer realized he was in trouble when he looked at the greatest P/E Average seasons of all time. He listed the top 23 P/E Averages ever; the only times they didn’t occur during the 1920s or 1930s were by Nap Lajoie in 1901, Ty Cobb in 1911, Ted Williams in 1941 and Jeff Bagwell in 1994. 1901 was the first year of the American League (formerly the Western League), the A.L. used a lively ball in 1911 and 1994 was the dawn of the heavy hitting 1990s.

To compensate, Messmer includes a host of subjective factors to lessen the influence of P/E Averages on his final rankings. He adds Gold Glove Awards, MVP Awards, All-Star appearances, fielding stats, post-season performance and “intangibles” to decide the final rankings of baseball’s 100 greatest players. It’s sad to think that a book that promises a new system for rating players reached back into the junk pile of “intangibles” to bail it out.

Repoz Posted: April 16, 2008 at 03:51 PM | 28 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: books, history, sabermetrics

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 16, 2008 at 04:08 PM (#2746272)
Pretty thorough deconstruction. There's a book I won't be buying.
   2. Chris Needham Posted: April 16, 2008 at 04:18 PM (#2746300)
Speaking as a fellow goofy-looking, pasty, lumpy white guy with a voice that cracks when he gets nervous while speaking, I'd recommend that Mr. Messmer not produce any more youtube videos.
   3. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 16, 2008 at 04:24 PM (#2746312)
If 12 more people join me, we can break the all time record of 14 people on statonebaseball.com.
   4. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 16, 2008 at 04:26 PM (#2746316)
blog entry on the Bedard trade:

I’m not going to pretend to tell you that I know a lot about Adam Jones, Tony Butler, George Sherrill, Chris Tillman, and Kam Michkolio, the package that the Mariners sent east to land the rights to Bedard. In fact, I know almost nothing about any of these guys, and there is a good chance that none of them will become Hall of Famers, All-Stars, or even solid Major League players for years to come. But I can tell you this, Baltimore made the right move.
   5. Greg (U)K Posted: April 16, 2008 at 04:31 PM (#2746327)
I'm confused by what that means.

And if you're interested enough about something like the Bedard trade to right about it in your blog, wouldn't you also be interested enough to at least bother looking up Jones' minor league record (or Sherrill's major league) on bb-ref?
   6. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 16, 2008 at 04:32 PM (#2746328)
It means that if Bedard was traded for 3 people who've never been in my kitchen, it'd still be the right move.
   7. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 16, 2008 at 04:34 PM (#2746330)
Wow, I would think most anyone that follows baseball even semi-seriously has heard of Adam Jones. I mean, he isn't some obscure minor leaguer.
   8. alkeiper Posted: April 16, 2008 at 05:11 PM (#2746385)
I saw this book in Borders a couple months ago. The methodology looked absolutely horrid and the results bore that out. Fortunately I realized the book wasn't worth the paper and declined to purchase it. It seems like a waste of time to introduce a new rating system.

As a rule of thumb, I do not buy analysis books written by people I have not heard of.
   9. Tom Nawrocki Posted: April 16, 2008 at 05:30 PM (#2746416)
How do these things even get published? If you saw this stuff on a Web site, you would likely not even finish reading it.
   10. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 16, 2008 at 05:39 PM (#2746433)
Because book editors can't tell the difference between this crap and Bill James.
   11. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: April 16, 2008 at 05:50 PM (#2746452)
Because book editors can't tell the difference between this crap and Bill James.

Sure they can, but if an editor thinks he can sell 50% of what James sells and make a profit, they don't care.
   12. SoSH U at work Posted: April 16, 2008 at 05:52 PM (#2746457)
Sure they can, but if an editor thinks he can sell 50% of what James sells and make a profit, they don't care.


And there's some merit to that. I have Mike Gimbel's first book (interesting from a stats perspective but poorly written) because it looked like the Bill James' books my mom knew I liked.
   13. Repoz Posted: April 16, 2008 at 06:00 PM (#2746473)
How do these things even get published?

I saw Mike Francesa thumbing through this on the YESNutwork...and even he tossed it aside.

He found it more confusing than a Wendy's drive-thru menu.
   14. Walt Davis Posted: April 16, 2008 at 07:36 PM (#2746641)
The "complete" bases part of it is almost useful. Ignoring SB for now, if you look at a standard regression-based estimator of runs on singles, doubles, etc. (with other stuff controlled), say the xRuns formula, you'll find you can pretty much reproduce it more "simply" as b*(complete bases) + c*hit.

Oh, here's at least one version of the formula, grabbed from here:

ERP=(.48 x 1B) + (.8 x 2B) + (1.12 x 3B) + (1.44 x HR) + ((HP+BB) x .32) + (.16 x SB)-(.0968 x (AB + CS + GIDP - H))

That first part (everything through the HP+BB term) is perfectly replaced by:

.32*(complete bases) + .16*hits

I always thought that was pretty neat. The first part might be thought of as the regular run generation value of a base and the second as the runs added by the fact that hits can advance runners in all situations and advance them more than one base.

FYI, if memory serves, the LWts coefficients are very similar.

With all the retrosheet info and such, has anyone yet broken down the basic regression into finer bits? For example, singles with 0 on/0 out, singles with 0/1, singles with 0/2, singles with 1/0, etc. I assume you could even have "singles which advance runners more than one base."
   15. fret Posted: April 16, 2008 at 08:13 PM (#2746727)
FYI, if memory serves, the LWts coefficients are very similar.

Indeed they are. Duffy Duff posted a formula in the UVI thread today:

(1.5*H + 2*BB + TB)/(AB + BB)


which can be untangled, I think, to get something similar to what you have. (To get LWTS/PA from the formula above, you subtract 1 and then multiply by .31.) One issue is that the run value of the out is -.10 in the ERP formula, which is different from the -.30 in linear weights.

With all the retrosheet info and such, has anyone yet broken down the basic regression into finer bits? For example, singles with 0 on/0 out, singles with 0/1, singles with 0/2, singles with 1/0, etc.

Tangotiger has a page where he does this: here. For example, with 1 out and man on 3rd, a strikeout is -0.60 and a non-K out is -0.22. With 1 out and men on 1st and 2nd, a strikeout is -0.50 and a non-K out is -0.56.
   16. Los Angeles Waterloo of Black Hawk Posted: April 16, 2008 at 08:19 PM (#2746735)
Wow, I would think most anyone that follows baseball even semi-seriously has heard of Adam Jones. I mean, he isn't some obscure minor leaguer.

While this may be true, I'm not sure that everyone who follows baseball semi-seriously or above really tracks prospects.

***

As for this book, I too saw it in a Borders not long ago, and it was a mess. One of the first things he introduces is runs produced, but he calls it something else, in seeming ignorance that it existed before him. Now, I think runs produced actually should be called "scoring participation" or something like that, if it has to exist at all, but to make it a linchpin of your rating system ... pass.
   17. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 16, 2008 at 08:33 PM (#2746764)
"While this may be true, I'm not sure that everyone who follows baseball semi-seriously or above really tracks prospects."

Yeah, but Jones spent part of both 2005 and 2006 in the majors.
   18. jwb Posted: April 16, 2008 at 08:34 PM (#2746766)
I think most of those thousands arguments of this book has spawned begin with, "Is Craig Messmer the biggest idiot ever?" and "Well, he didn't try to fight a land war in Asia."

Wayne Messmer, on the other hand, does a most excellent job with The Star Spangled Banner. And has a better speaking voice.
   19. Halofan Posted: April 16, 2008 at 10:33 PM (#2746911)
"Scoring Participation" taken by NCAA Division 1 Sorority Bang Teams.
   20. Bob Dernier Cri Posted: April 16, 2008 at 10:59 PM (#2746935)
Do we have an up-to-date 2008 Pancake Flops leaderboard?
   21. Crispix Attacks Posted: April 16, 2008 at 11:10 PM (#2746945)
Do any of us have access to all the statistics necessary to calculate Pancake Flops on a day-by-day basis? That would be great.

All I know is that I was counting on Moises Alou to provide a bunch of them for my fantasy team, and I'm really hurting for points right now.
   22. Crispix Attacks Posted: April 16, 2008 at 11:15 PM (#2746953)
Okay, it's early enough in the year that a lot of players don't have any GIDP, so there are a bunch of guys tied for first in the league with an infinite number of Pancake Flops. Maybe it should be reformulated so there isn't so much dividing by zero involved.

Nate McLouth would be a strong candidate, currently having -12.74/0 Pancake Flops on the year.
   23. Charter Member of the Jesus Melendez Fanclub Posted: April 17, 2008 at 05:01 AM (#2747740)
Crispix is a true expert in PF, correctly noting that failure to hit into even one measly DP renders one's PF score undefined. But among players who have done us the favor of compiling a dividable denominator, here are some PF leaders for '08!

(hopefully not completely unreadable, but unlikely...)

Carlos Guillen -4.9
Vladimir Guerrero -6.1
Lance Berkman -6.9
Raul Ibanez -8.0
Chase Utley -8.4
Aubrey Huff -8.5
Eric Hinske -8.5
Ken Griffey -8.8
Pat Burrell -8.9
J.R. Towles -8.9
Brian McCann -8.9
David Wright -8.9
Vernon Wells -9.3
Jeff Keppinger -9.5
Manny Ramirez -10.4
Mark DeRosa -10.4
J.D. Drew -10.4
Rick Ankiel -10.5
Jeremy Hermida -10.5
Justin Morneau -10.6
Derrek Lee -10.9
Frank Thomas -10.9
Casey Kotchman -11.0
Jason Varitek -11.4
Ryan Ludwick -11.8
   24. Charter Member of the Jesus Melendez Fanclub Posted: April 17, 2008 at 05:07 AM (#2747743)
Maybe it should be reformulated so there isn't so much dividing by zero involved.

Well, you'd have to discuss that with Shock. Personally, I'd be very uncomfortable revising a formula that someone obviously put a lot of study into.
   25. rdfc Posted: April 18, 2008 at 12:51 PM (#2749444)
I wrote a review of the book on Amazon a month ago and, not wanting to be totally negative, gave it two stars for being not totally unreadable.

I was almost certainly being too generous.
   26. Shooty: Applying to be Fearless Leader Posted: April 18, 2008 at 01:02 PM (#2749456)
I wrote a review of the book on Amazon a month ago and, not wanting to be totally negative, gave it two stars for being not totally unreadable.

I bet he uses this as a blurb on his next book!
   27. JPWF13 Posted: April 18, 2008 at 01:41 PM (#2749488)
I was almost certainly being too generous.


I read the Amazon reviews, the positive one was hysterical, I assume his mother sent it in.
   28. Designated Sitter (GGC) Posted: April 18, 2008 at 01:42 PM (#2749489)
I was looking for something else on Google Books and found this book. My library is too large as it is. I did check this one out of the library the other day. I hadn't heard of it before I saw it. Read the section on "Ball Four." Pretty interesting stuff; especially Larry Dierker's reminiscences.

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