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1. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: April 07, 2008 at 08:27 PM (#2733862)I'd say that he was more pumpsied than anything else.
Lefty Grove, aside from being the A's best, might be the best left-handed pitcher ever for the Red Sox as well. It's either Grove or Mel Parnell.
Pedro at his peak was in a different class then just about any pitcher the game has ever seen, and if I needed to pick one starter to pitch six innings for me, I’d choose Pedro every time. Unfortunately he just didn’t ever have the longevity to truly be considered the greatest.
Pedro at his peak averaged well over 7 innings per start. During his dominant 3-year run with the Sox from 1998-2000, he threw 15 complete games. He threw 13 CGs in his final year as an Expo alone. In the context of his era, he was a horse during those peak years.
It needed to be said.
Only one top-5 finish in innings pitched (4th in 1996), with only six seasons in the top 10 in his career. Only three seasons in the top 10 in batters faced in his career, none in the top five. Pedro's fragility during his peak is often overstated, but even during his peak, he doesn't fit the Clemens/Maddux mold of a horse.
Nolan Ryan's got an argument here as well. Less than 1000 innings as a Ranger, but more effective per inning than Hough or Rogers, and just outside the top 10 in innings pitched in Rangers history.
There's an award for best Red Sox pitcher ever?
What a backhanded compliment and a stupid one at that. Is it really that hard to notice that Pedro, in his prime, went deep into games? You can't even be considered a no.1 starter if you don't routinely go at least 7 innings. If Pedro throughout his career mostly went 6 and out, there is no way he'd be considered one of the greatest ever. It's pretty impressive on per game basis if you can amass 217 or so innings in only 29 starts.
You don't need the 'just about' in this. And this guy didn't look at Pedro's game logs much, either, as others have noted. The six-inning Pedro is a Mets-era thing, and not representative of what he did in Boston...which was supposed to be the topic, I thought.
Grove wouldn't be the best overall, but maybe the best Sox left-hander. Both he and Parnell had five outstanding years for Boston. The four ERA titles might tip it to Grove.
John Candelaria or Bob Friend?
Counting only Grove's Red Sox years, I take Ruth, who I'm surprised isn't even in the conversation at this point, especially if Pedro is worthy of consideration at all.
If Pedro throughout his career mostly went 6 and out, there is no way he'd be considered one of the greatest ever.
Not being snarky at all, is the difference really that great between a 6-and-out pitcher and a 7-and-out pitcher? I seem to recall (potentially errantly) that some of the criticism of Grady following the 2003 debacle was that he should have known Pedro's history of falling off after the seventh inning and probably should not have even run him out to start the eighth.
Pedro in 2003 was not Pedro in 1998-2000. Yes, he had a short peak, but it's that peak that's in question. And Pedro went 8 and 9 innings frequently during those years.
Dock Ellis. Nobody will ever convince me otherwise. Dude tried to bean the entire Big Red Machine.
Cy Young shouldn't be in this discussion. The quality of play in 1908 was so shoddy that unless you were Walter Johnson you shouldn't be in this discussion considering the length of time Young pitched with the Red Sox.
It's between Pedro and Roger, and while there's a very good discussion for Roger, Pedro was freakishly dominant overall with the Red Sox.
Considering the level of competition? I might have to go with the Candy Man. Babe Adams really has a strong case, though, and faced tougher competition than Leever or Phillipe.
For the Sox, I'd have to go with Clemens. Many more innings pitched in Boston than Pedro, and better vs. league than Young. Sure, if you include Cy's years with the Spiders, he has a case; but that's not the purpose of this exercise.
It was after 100 pitches, which for Pedro often got him 7 innings or more. There was no point in his Red Sox career where he was ever viewed by anyone as a six inning pitcher; at worst, he was viewed as a 7 inning pitcher in 2003-4.
Ron Guidry or Red Ruffing.
AL Top 5 in IP, compared to Pedro:
<u>1998</u>
251.3 Erickson
238.7 Rogers
234.7 Clemens
234.3 Moyer
234.0 Belcher
---
233.7 Martinez
<u>1999</u>
231.7 Wells
230.3 Erickson
228.0 Moyer
220.0 Burba
219.3 Helling
---
213.3 Martinez
<u>2000</u>
237.7 Mussina
229.7 Wells
227.3 Rogers
226.7 Radke
222.0 Ponson
---
217.0 Martinez
During his 3-year Boston peak, less than one start's worth of innings separated Pedro from a Top 5 finish in IP for his league. In 1998, he would've tied Clemens for 3rd place if he'd thrown a whopping ONE more inning. He also led his team in IP for each of those 3 years: +17.7 IP (1998), +63.0 IP (1999), and +57.7 IP (2000).
Not sure why batters faced would be a good metric by which to evaluate Pedro's durability. He doesn't face very many because he's really, really good at his job.
Yeah, it's kind of like saying that he's not elite because he wasn't crushing the league in HRs allowed, BB, and hits allowed.
the most amazing thing about that incident, at least in the context of the current baseball environment, is that it was his MANAGER that took him out ... HE DIDN'T GET EJECTED!!!
Ron Guidry or Red Ruffing.
Lefty Gomez has to at least be in the conversation
Stating the obvious: being "really, really good at his job" should allow a durable pitcher to face more batters than other similarly durable pitchers. Being unable to face as many batters as less efficient pitchers is not a check in the pro-durability column.
Ron Guidry or Red Ruffing.
Lefty Gomez has to at least be in the conversation
Rivera?
I thought the idea was to get outs. Has anybody figured out how to count those?
I'd take Pedro's time with the Sox over Clemens'. Pedro through the end of his career with the Sox at age 32 had thrown 2300 innings with a ERA+ of 168. Roger at the same point had thrown 2500 innings with a ERA+ of 145. Roger had one more mediocre season in Boston before leaving town.
Ron Guidry or Red Ruffing.
Lefty Gomez has to at least be in the conversation
Gomez is probably the Yanks' best outside of Ford, but it's actually pretty amazing that with all the titles they've won, there haven't been any other A-level HOF pitchers. And even Ford isn't quite at the top of the A-level. Lots of his record was due to his run support and the enormous Yankee Stadium park advantage for a LHP.
EDIT: Babe Adams was a good pitcher, but not nearly as durable as was Cooper.
-- MWE
Best: Jack Morris? Mickey Lolich?
The argument Greg Maddux is making isn't whether Pedro was good - obviously he was fantastic. But if it only takes a guy 12 pitches/3.5 batters to get through a typical inning, he should be able to throw more innings than a pitcher of similar durability who requires 18 pitches/4 batters.*
* Numbers pulled out of my a$$.
You've got to include Pedro's time with L.A. and Montreal to get those 2,300 innings.
Peak: Ben Sheets
Career: Probably Sheets. That's depressing.
Hal Newhouser. His numbers in 1944-45 are war-inflated, but his 1946 was against legit (albeit all-white) competition and he was still excellent for 2 or 3 more years after that. I'd think that's enough to beat Morris and Lolich.
Cubs - Mordecai Brown
Cards - Bob Gibson
Phillies - Steve Carlton
Giants - Christy Mathewson
Pirates - Wilbur Cooper
Reds - . .. . Dolf Luque?
Braves - Greg Maddux
Dodgers - Dazzy Vance
A's - Lefty Grove
Red Sox - Roger Clemens
Yanks - Whitey Ford
White Sox - Ed Walsh
Was/Min - Walter Johnson
Browns/Orioles - Jim Palmer
Tigers - Hal Newhouser
Indians - Bob Feller
Angels - Nolan Ryan
Mets - Tom Seaver
Astros - Larry Dierker?
Rangers - Not Applicable
Royals - Kevin Appier
Brewers - Jim Slaton?
Padres - Gaylord Perry?
Expos - Steve Rogers
Jays - Dave Stieb
Mariners - Randy Johnson
Rockies - Pedro Astacio
Marlins - A. J. Burnett?
Rays - Kazmir
Diamondbacks - Randy Johnson
Hmmmm . . Giants - Mathewson, Marichal, Hubbell.
Plus McGinnity, Rusie, Welch, Keefe, & Gaylord Perry.
On edit:
Angels - Nolan Ryan
Mets - Tom Seaver
Astros - Larry Dierker?
Rangers - Not Applicable
Ryan belongs in at least two of those. Maybe three. I'll give you Seaver, though. Heh.
Peak: Ben Sheets
Career: Probably Sheets. That's depressing.
Hey, let's not forget about any of the pitchers who have at least won over 100 games with the Brewers. Why, checking BB-ref, we're reminded of the great career performances of...
geez, I've never heard of either of those guys.
1. Jim Slaton 117 2025.3
2. Mike Caldwell 102 1604.7
3. Teddy Higuera 94 1380.0
4. Moose Haas 91 1542.0
5. Bill Wegman 81 1482.7
6. Ben Sheets 74 1245.0
7. Chris Bosio 67 1190.0
8. Bill Travers 65 1068.3
9. Cal Eldred 64 1078.7
10. Jaime Navarro 62 1061.7
Whoof.
And you'd have a HOF-caliber pitcher as #4 starter -- Eppa Rixey, Jim Bunning or Curt Schilling...
The contenders for the Rockies are:
Astacio: 102 ERA+ in 827.3 IP, 129 starts, 53-48 W-L
Jeff Francis: 103 ERA+ in 614 IP, 107 starts, 47-35 W-L
Aaron Cook: 109 ERA+ in 731.3 IP, 109 starts, 36-36 W-L
Jason Jennings: 103 ERA+ in 941 IP, 156 starts, 58-56 W-L
You might go with Cook, except that (1) he has big problems with in-season durability, only having started 30 games in a season once in his career, and (2) it would be totally embarrassing to have a pitcher with a career 36-36 record as the best pitcher in franchise history.
Francis and Cook, of course, are still both in there slogging away, and my guess is that whichever one has the better season this year will emerge by the end of it as the best pitcher in Rockies history. (And my further guess is that it will be Jeff Francis.) At this moment, I'd rank them:
Jennings
Cook
Astacio
Francis
Yeah, that was a miss on my part. I should have thrown him in. Still, Ruffing pitched 670 more innings for the Yankees, won 42 more games for them, and was about as effective in the World Series as Gomez -- 7-2, 85.2 IP, 2.63 ERA and 6-1 in series, vs. 6-0, 50.1 IP, 2.86 ERA and 5-0 in series.
Overall, Ruffing, as a Yankee, was 231-124 with a 3.47 ERA in 3,168 IP, while Gomez was 189-101 with a 3.34 ERA in 2,498 IP. They were almost exact contemporaries on the Yankees, both joining the team in 1930 and playing through 1942. Ruffing came back and played some more in 1945 and 46; but that was only 148 IP.
Whatever advantage Gomez had in peak or quality, it seems to me that Ruffing makes up all or most of it in quantity. What am I missing, Andy?
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