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1. NJ in NY Posted: March 29, 2011 at 01:44 PM (#3780381)Ew.
Well, there you go.
Tell me about it.
Who are some examples of guys that figured out how to be productive players by refining their strike zone judgment at the age that Francoeur is right now?
BTW, if you haven't seen the Chappelle's stand-up bit about Sesame street and cartoons, you should youtube it right now.
EDIT: Should have refreshed. Russlan beat me.
so I looked for everyone ages 25-26, 400+PAs, OPS+ 85-95, ISO 120-160, K/BB of 2.76 to 3.76, and .127 to ..177 K/PA:
Luis GonzalezJerry Adair
John Bateman
Larry Herndon
Glenn Wilson
Adam Kennedy
Jeff Francoeur
Ricky Jordan
George Thomas
Mike Young
you drop one parameter and you get more of the same, every now and then you do get guys like Garret Anderson, Aaron Boone, Carl Everett, Devon White... who are useful and sometimes actually really good for a stretch after ages 25/26... but mostly it's guys you scratch your head about and wonder why they got so much PT
Sosa improved his at around the same age as Francouer is now, with pretty spectacular results.
Alfonso Soriano's walk rate ticked up at age 30. (In that specific year, a lot of it was IBB, but he ended up settling in closer to that rate than his 20s walk rate.)
Mmmmm, 'roids.
To the best of my knowledge, they have yet to be proven effective against the slider in the dirt.
Raul Ibanez at age 29. I guess that's not the same age as Frenchy, though; maybe he has to wait two more years.
HGH improves eyesight.
What improves make-things-up-ability?
Pot
Deadlines.
le meow
le purrrrrrrrrrrrrrrr
Then don't ever watch early Cheers re-runs. They're like attending a sexual harassment seminar.
I sincerely regret reading this post. I'm out with the flu, my brain's addled with over-the-counter medication, and I thought "sure, that sounds like a great idea..." I scanned the archives from before Frenchy's call-up to today, looking for Francoeur, Frenchy, ajc, Braves, etc... I might've missed some, but this is what I got.
July 7, 2005: Braves DLed Jordan, recalled Jeff Francoeur ("He's a guy who is overanxious, to say the least, at the plate," [Chipper] Jones said. "So I'd imagine the first thing that comes close between the two dugouts, he's going to be swinging.")
July 8: AJC: Francoeur a smash in nightcap debut
July 28: Braves Sweep Up the Nationals (Jose Guillen: "The guys who did the damage [today] it wasn’t Andruw [Jones] or Chipper,” he said. “It was some rookie guy—I don’t even know his name"... The rookie guy was Jeff Francoeur, who was playing his 12th game as a Brave")
October 19: 2006 ZiPS Atlanta Braves (Francoeur - 274/315/474, 21 HR.)
November 14: John Sickels: Crystal Ball: Jeff Francoeur (plays til 2021, hits .268 with 387 homers)
March 1, 2006: AJC: Chipper, Frenchy off to WBC
March 24: AJC: Francoeur tries getting more selective ("I'm forcing [pitchers] to throw strikes - when you do that, it makes baseball a lot easier," said Francoeur, who is batting .692 in five Grapefruit League games.)
April 27: Sabernomics: Pondering Jeff Francoeur ("He's nearing the 100 PA mark, without having walked even once. And he's leading the league in swinging at first pitches, so his pledge to work on pitch discipline is not going so well")
May 14: Chipper thrilled for Frenchy (subheadline in article: Slightly improved patience at plate paying off for Francoeur... Jones: ""Frenchy is Captain Caveman; he'll swing at everything. But he's making it work. He's getting better at making guys throw strikes.")
July 8: Francoeur delivers again ("Francoeur’s major league-leading 35 two-out RBIs are just ahead of Boston’s David Ortiz, whom the Red Sox have honored as the greatest clutch hitter in their franchise’s storied history.")
August 4: Don't Walk: The Oddities of Francoeur
August 3, 2007 (yes, a year passed between Francoeur headlines): TSN: Francoeur has a see-it, hit-it approach ("“I’ve always been a guy who likes to see a pitch and hit it,” says Francoeur, Atlanta’s rising-star right fielder.)
February 25, 2008: AJC: Check egos at clubhouse door ("Jones wanted to see Francoeur hit some balls to right field?..?. he starts pulling balls over the left-field fence. Chipper chimes in, this time sharpening the needle: “Lose an Andruw, gain an Andruw.” Ouch.")
March 3: Rosenthal: Q&A with Jeff Francoeur ("Q: How much are you still focused on improving your plate discipline?
A: My goal has been to go 10 or 15 walks up in the next two or three years, every year... I would love to walk about 80 times a year.)
March 30: Dugout Central: Is Francoeur the Next Roberto Clemente?
June 21: Dugout Central: What To Do With Jeff Francoeur
June 24: AJC: Francoeur fitted with contact lens to help batting
July 4: Braves Send Francoeur to Double-A
July 7: AJC: Braves recall Francoeur from minor leagues (""Even though it's only been three days, I feel like a new guy... it was mainly get back to the basics, getting back to 'see ball, hit ball.'")
July 9: ZiPS Career Projection - Jeff Francoeur (.268/.317/.424, 1579 hits, 179 hr, 91 OPS+)
September 22: Beyond the Box Score: Jeff Francoeur's Awful Season
January 20: Francoeur learns, grows following tough season ("After nonstop tinkering last summer, Francoeur has locked into one approach he thinks will work.")
January 21: Braves, Francoeur differ on deal for '09
January 27: Francoeur armed with altered approach ("With my new stance and my new approach, I think I'm going to be able to see the ball a lot better... I feel like I have the prime of my career ahead of me... I feel I'm heading in the right direction")
Feb 12: Francoeur likely destined for arbitration
Feb 22: Braves' Francoeur feels reborn at 25 (“I’m going to be a completely different player.”)
Feb 26: Braves anticipate renewed Francoeur
March 1: AJC: Francoeur remade (a frisky Jeff Francoeur jumped into the cage and said to hitting coach Terry Pendleton: “Oppo bomb.”)
March 12: AJC: Francoeur's work finally yields payoff
March 15: Atlanta Braves’ fielder Jeff Francoeur of Springfield’s Sixteen Acres Francoeurs ("'I’ve spoken to Jeff many times in recent weeks, and he seems to be very happy and confident,' Mrs. Francoeur said.")
March 18: I drafted Jeff Francoeur and might be pleasantly surprised ("Francoeur has lost weight. He’s improved his bat speed and changed his stance.")
March 30: AJC: Francoeur begins to generate power (“I’m swinging at good pitches,” Francoeur said. “If I do that, I’m going to hit for average and get power with it.”)
April 1: AJC: Fishin' Frenchy
April 5: Francoeur grinning again after difficult '08 ("Using a new stance and approach at the plate, had seven walks to six strikeouts while hitting .328. ... .. Hit a tape-measure homer in Lakeland against Detroit. ... Caught a 6-pound, 4-ounce largemouth bass in a lake behind the visiting clubhouse before a game with Houston. ... During a round of golf with Tiger Woods, birdied consecutive holes.)
April 6: Francoeur puts tough '08 behind him ("“I know that I have a good approach and I feel comfortable with what I’m going to do.")
April 7: Francoeur storms out of gate ("Francoeur, in a rare display of patience, took the first five pitches he saw and worked the count full, he didn’t get on base but it was refreshing to see Jeff display some restraint at the plate.")
April 11: AJC: Francoeur grows up, grows into a new hitter (“I’m having fun. I’m relaxed. I’m not as tense, not as amped up. I’m really trying to control my emotions.”)
April 11: AJC: The New Francoeur
April 14: AJC: It's early but Braves appear on right path ("Jeff Francoeur is showing signs of a comeback.... he's not trying to pull everything.")
April 15: Jeff Francoeur's Blog
April 16: Francoeur's day dashed as Braves fall ("I’m relaxed and I’m not scared to hit with two strikes. I’m trying to hit the ball up the middle or the other way, and if they make a mistake, then you try to make them pay.”)
April 20: Francoeur learning from tough 2008 ("Even last week, when I was at .190 or .200, I was relaxed")
April 20: Jeff Francoeur's New Approach ("His pitches-per number hasn’t improved much yet this season, but in watching his at-bats, it is obvious that he is much more selective with the offerings he swings at than he was last year.")
April 25: AJC: Benches clear, Francoeur homers in Braves' win
May 2: Francoeur homers to power victory vs Astros, Hampton
May 2: AJC: Francoeur regains confidence at the plate
May 6: Congratulations, Jeff Francoeur. You, sir, are an idiot. ("If on-base percentage is so important, then why don't they put it up on the scoreboard?")
May 11: JeffFrancouer.com: April 30 ("Just like when an airline experiences weather delays and the passengers have a few extra minutes to pass, baseball players find some really creative stuff to do to pass the time during a rain delay.")
May 13: Francoeur given rest in finale
May 17: Q&A with... Braves right fielder Jeff Francoeur ("I think more than anything was to learn to be patient. Don’t try to force things too much.")
May 19: Time for Francoeur to find a groove
May 19: Braves counting on Francoeur to rebound ("“I’m not worried")
May 20: AJC: This time, Francoeur deals with it
May 21: AJC: Francoeur saga continues, for now ("[it's] just a little slump.")
May 22: Braves need to make changes to outfield mix ("Frenchy's days in Atlanta might be numbered... they could release him.")
May 23: Talking Chop: Mr. Francoeur
May 25: AJC: Is it time to bid adieu to Frenchy?
May 26: AJC: Atlanta Braves... look for outfield fix ("Who are the Royals going to give up who can play RF and be an upgrade over Francoeur?")
May 27: The Atlanta Braves' Rumor Mill ("Would the Royals part with their own version of a former great prospect that has never panned out, David DeJesus? Would the Rangers part with David Murphy in a deal for Francoeur? Would the ChiSox take Francoeur and a prospect? [for Jermaine Dye]")
May 28: AJC: Braves' GM won't comment on Francoeur-Red Sox rumors
May 29: AJC: Braves should show more patience with Francoeur
May 29: Has Jeff Francoeur run out of time in Atlanta? ("However, Francoeur would bring consistency to Boston’s lineup")
May 30: AJC: Readers' deals for Francoeur
June 3: Jeff Francoeur smacks a clutch homer to lead Braves past Cubs ("“I worked for about two hours on the off day (Monday), hitting, trying to shorten my swing a little bit... It paid off.”)
June 12: AJC: Should the Braves deal Jeff Francoeur? ("here he is, batting. 245 with a microscopic on-base percentage of .280. He’s on pace to finish with 11 homers and 71 RBIs — same as he did last year.")
June 21: JeffFrancoeur.com: June 17, 2009
June 22: Francoeur sits out series finale
June 25: JeffFrancoeur.com: June 23, 2009 ("I hope to see a lot of you out for Delta Day at Turner Field tomorrow, June 24th vs. the Yankees.")
June 29: AJC: Francoeur breaks out lucky 'turkey underwear'
July 3: Francoeur for the All-Star Game
July 6: Francoeur benched for third straight day (“As a ballplayer, you just want to play and show what you can do. Whether that’s here or somewhere else, I can’t control that.”)
July 7: Rob Neyer: Has Frenchy finally lost his job?
July 10: Mets, Braves swap Church for Francoeur
July 11: Mets - "Acquired" Francoeur
July 11: Francoeur acquisition difficult to explain
July 17: Francoeur makes his strange (and hitless) return
July 20: AJC: Francoeur eager to play without hometown pressure
July 29: JeffFrancoeur.com: July 22, 2009 ("And rest assured, I’m in safe hands with the Mets… like the Braves, they are also a Delta team!") [reposted August 2]
August 10: Francoeur trade paying Mets dividends
August 12: Kevin Burkhardt on Francouer
August 12: JeffFrancoeur.com: Aug. 11th, 2009 ("[Citi Field's] a beautiful stadium and if you’re really lucky you can hit the Delta Sky360 Club and Lounge.")
August 15: "AJC: Hindsight dept.: LaRoche deal good; Francoeur deal, um..."
August 18: Francoeur earning cheers in N.Y.
August 13: Francoeur's 2nd half one of few compelling storylines for Mets ("it’s possible the Mets added a good young player to that core they hold so dear. And the fact that they stole him from former-rival Atlanta makes it even sweeter.")
August 20: AJC: Interview with Jeff Francoeur ("Q: What made it so hard here? A: Every other article written seemed to be something negative.")
August 20: Francoeur in Mets' conversation for next season (Jerry Manuel: “We have not gone down the road of pitch selection with him. We’ve tackled it in a roundabout way. That’ll be something we’ll be doing in spring training with him, for sure.” Chipper: “He’s almost back to the way he was his first year [2005] or two.”)
August 24: Mets RF Jeff Francoeur sidelined with swollen thumb
September 4: JeffFrancoeur.com: August 19th, 2009
September 5: RotoRob: Another Look: Jeff Francoeur ("maybe it's time we give Francoeur another look.")
September 11: Neyer: Braves' Heyward no Francoeur ("Jason Heyward might be, right now, a better hitter than Jeff Francoeur ever has been or will be")
September 16: Francoeur a fan of ex-teammate Hanson
September 19: Francoeur stays hot in Mets win vs. Nats ("The Mets believe Francoeur will look sharp in their 2010 uni, so much so that they are inclined to approach him about signing him to a three-year contract... he has batted .314, scored 30 runs, reduced his rate of strikeouts, played right field well, continued to intimidate third-base coaches and baserunners, played hurt and and hit into an unassisted triple play.)
September 20: Silva: Jeff Francoeur Does Not Suck
September 22: Megdal: Jeff Francoeur Extension: Locking in Mediocrity or Worse
September 29: Francoeur: It's great to be young and a Met ("sometimes you just gotta get out of the situation, and I was a guy that needed to get out.")
October 5: Bubbly Francoeur Is Mets' Only Reason to Smile ("his renaissance has revived his confidence and recast him as a dangerous presence")
October 17: What Have You Learned? Jeff Francoeur
October 19: Non-Tender Candidate: Jeff Francoeur
November 3: Francoeur undergoes thumb surgery
December 6: Murphy and Francoeur, pillars of success
December 15: Worried? Not Jeff Francoeur
December 16: Point of contention: Jeff Francoeur's Defense
December 17: Stubborn Francouer has a ways to go ("I’m still 25 and I’m learning different things, learning the strike zone and hopefully I will continue to get better at that; but, at the same time, I’m not going up there thinking to walk, thinking about this or that, if there is a guy on second or third I’m gonna try to drive him in - that’s my first priority.... I know to a lot of statistical people OBP seems to be a huge thing… 15 to 20 years ago it wasn’t a big deal… and all of a sudden it is.)
December 25: AJC: Jeff Francoeur's Offseason
December 27: Making the Case for a Francoeur-Wright Co-Captain Situation for the Mets
January 19: JeffFrancoeur.com: Jan 14th, 2010
February 21: Healthy Jeff Francoeur says NY Mets can quiet doubters by 'winning ballgames'
February 25: Mets' Francoeur says he'll hit 27 home runs this season ("One of my big goals is to have better pitch recognition... I know if I can get better at that the rest of my game will follow. If I can mix in 50-60 walks, I become a totally different guy.")
March 2: Jeff Francoeur vs. the People of the Internet
March 3: Silva: How Can You Not Love Francouer?
March 17: Francouer armed with unique skill
March 20: Francoeur gets license to steal with Mets
March 25: AJC: Baseball fun again for Francoeur ("The happy face has resurfaced. The smile is megawatt. Jeff Francoeur has rediscovered the briefly misplaced joy of playing baseball.")
April 4: Francouer embraces New York ("they believed in me and unlike the Braves, they worked on keeping me aggressive but with better pitch recognition at the plate")
April 13: Francoeur the lone offensive bright spot amid team's dismal start ("“This is a good year to show everybody that I’ve kind of started figuring things out. I’m 26, I’ve been here (the majors) five years. There’s really no more excuses where you can say you don’t know stuff... The one knock for me has always been my on-base percentage... I’m not going to get 100 walks, but 50 or 60 is a good number,... This year, I think I could go up there just holding the bat and draw 50 walks by not even swinging at a pitch because people think they know what I’m going to do.”)
April 16: Francoeur to Moneyball gurus: How ya like me now? ("“I think I’m learning how to hit,”)
April 17: Jeff Francouer: Yes He Can?
April 17: Francouer makes strong defense of Manuel
April 29: Francoeur at center of turnaround
May 25: What to Do With Frenchy
May 30: The voices in Jeff Francoeur's head
June 20: JeffFrancoeur.com: June 10th, 2010
July 10: Happy Anniversary Jeff Francouer
July 11: A New Role for Francoeur (“You’re not going to see me sitting there sulking”)
July 15: Throw Frenchy from the 7 train
July 23: Francoeur trade may be in the works
August 2: No remedy in sight as Mets outfielder Jeff Francoeur's hitting struggles continue ("I get so anxious, I don’t know. Part of me thinks I need to go on medicine. I do.")
August 10: Mets reserve outfielder Jeff Francoeur tells club he wants to be traded ("“Talk to me is just that: It’s talk,” [his agent] said. “What matters is what happens and is he in right field every day. And that’s what we’re watching. We want to play every day. We prefer to play in New York. But if we’re not going to play every day in New York, we absolutely welcome the opportunity to play every day somewhere else.”)
August 16: Jeff Francoeur, Marvelous Met
August 31: Texas Rangers and New York Mets discussing trade for Jeff Francoeur
August 31: Rangers acquire outfielder Francoeur
September 1: Transaction Oracle: In-Depth Analysis of Jeff Francoeur Acquisition
September 12: The Jeff Francoeur reacts
September 26: Atlanta Braves First person Cox tribute: Jeff Francoeur
October 15: Jeff Francoeur happy to be playing meaningful baseball in New York
October 16: The Amazin' Francoeur Avenue Annual
November 6: Gambling probe reveals Charlie Samuels' relationship to Francisco Rodriguez, Jeff Francoeur, others
November 11: Francoeur now avaliable if Moore is interested
December 6: Phillies to meet with Francoeur's reps
December 8: Royals, Francoeur close to deal
December 8: Transaction Oracle: Royals - Signed Frenchy
December 11: AJC: Royals pleased with Francoeur, Cabrera
December 14: Jeff Francoeur Compares Self To John Smoltz and Chipper Jones (“Here, you’ve got a lot of 21- or 22-year-old guys who are ready to come up and be stars for years. Hopefully I can help them out.”)
December 15: Francoeur is full of hope as he joins Royals ("my whole goal coming into spring training is to find one approach that works. I’ve gone through some years where you’re trying a new stance, a new approach every week.... I’m looking forward to help lead and, at the same time, get back to where I know I can be.”)
December 17: Greinke asks Royals for trade
December 23: JeffFrancoeur.com: Kansas City, Here I Come!
February 3: Frenchy talks fastballs, faith at trade center
March 1: Francoeur, Royals have awfully lot in common ("He is humbled, searching for answers and desperate to improve... This is the key, he thinks. He tried too hard to hit home runs before, dismissed too easily the value of walks, and now that his mind is right, he is sure he will unlock his considerable potential. ")
March 12: Francoeur aims to regain winning form with Royals ("“I think I’ve learned when I’m skinner I’m better, I’m quicker to the ball... It’s going to be a huge difference. I can feel it just running out to my position, swinging the bat. I feel loose and relaxed.")
March 21: Francoeur breaks slump, but Texas beats KC 5-2
March 22: Francoeur stays positive through struggles ("he’s also trying to be better at selecting pitches to attack and alter his reputation as a free swinger.")
March 29: Seitzer says Francoeur is poised for a productive year
Heh.
May 8, 2006: [Jose] Bautista gets his shot, and it might count... "combining a smooth stroke with outstanding defense. Can play every position but catcher and first base." (First comment: "There's a good chance he'll end up a better player that Justin Huber.")
August 24, 2006: "Snelling shows a healthy attitude" (probably the last time the words 'Snelling' and 'healthy' appeared in a headline together)
All hail GCH. Now to sit and read.
April 13: Francoeur the lone offensive bright spot amid team's dismal start
April 16: Francoeur to Moneyball gurus: How ya like me now? ("“I think I’m learning how to hit,”)
April 17: Jeff Francouer: Yes He Can?
April 29: Francoeur at center of turnaround
May 25: What to Do With Frenchy
May 30: The voices in Jeff Francoeur's head
July 11: A New Role for Francoeur (“You’re not going to see me sitting there sulking”)
July 15: Throw Frenchy from the 7 train
July 23: Francoeur trade may be in the works
August 2: No remedy in sight as Mets outfielder Jeff Francoeur's hitting struggles continue
August 10: Mets reserve outfielder Jeff Francoeur tells club he wants to be traded
August 16: Jeff Francoeur, Marvelous Met
****Nothing against Frenchy - just how quickly the press praises and then how quickly the turn
July 4: Braves Send Francoeur to Double-A
I guess that answers that.
BTW, this one literally made me laugh for aout 2 mins:
July 11: Mets - "Acquired" Francoeur
This is the thread that just keeps giving.
Fish in a barrel...
I just saw a show of old Johnny Carson bits and I was stunned by the number of child molestation jokes in a single Tea Time Movie (IIRC) with Art Fern skit.
For those who remember such frivolities, Carol Wayne was one buxom woman.
"I do have a hobby, Sheriff Taylor. Drinkin'!"
"And that horrible act of child abuse became one of our most beloved running gags."
I tried my best to find them, but unless there was a good excerpt quote, I didn't use them.
One of the funniest lines that I ever heard was by Ryan Stiles in an infomercial skit on "Whose Line" -- now we'll return to "Touched By An Uncle"
My favourite was Colin Mochrie's introduction to one of those informercial skits:
Ryan: "We don't know what you're watching, so we're not going to tell you if we're going to return you to it."
Colin: "oh, uh... we..." (with sudden and great enthusiasm, he blurts out) "We're watching animal porn!"
(laughter as Colin does covers his face)
Colin: "Mary Had A Little Lamb will be right back in just a second..."
Incredible that this seesaw was established in his first big league spring training.
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