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Tuesday, September 25, 2012

Eric Gagne: Me, ‘80 percent’ of Dodgers used HGH

Chin (.091) -Feng (.200) Chen (.091) kicks dirt in frustration.

Former Cy Young closer Eric Gagne alleges in his new biography that 80 percent of his Los Angeles Dodgers teammates were using performance-enhancing drugs.

Gagne, who set a major league record while converting 84 consecutive save chances, admits that he used human growth hormone over five cycles in a three-year period toward the end of his career.

“It was sufficient to ruin my health, tarnish my reputation and throw a shadow over the extraordinary performances of my career,” Gagne says in the French-language book, titled, “Game Over: The Story of Eric Gagne.”

...Gagne first admitted publicly to using HGH in 2010.

In the book, Gagne does not provide any names of players he says used PEDs. Baseball began stricter testing in the spring of 2006. Players are subject to HGH testing during spring training and in the offseason, but not during the season.

“I was intimately aware of the clubhouse in which I lived. I would say that 80 percent of the Dodgers players were consuming them,” Gagne says in the book.

Repoz Posted: September 25, 2012 at 09:44 PM | 71 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: dodgers, steroids

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   1. smileyy Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:00 PM (#4245780)
I'd be curious to hear the negative health impacts he's attributing to HGH.
   2. crict Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4245786)
Just submitted it also. Articles in french provide a bit more details:

-According to Gagne, his three dominant seasons were tough physically: a cocktail of painkillers were needed to get through the seasons. He started using "in the second half of his career". Quotes are not clear, but he mentions using HGH to get over a minor knee injury. I believe that was in spring training 2005.
-He thinks they didn't work, believes it worsened his joint problems.
-The quote about the 80% is as follows in french: he believes that 80% of teammates used a substance or another.
   3. Gamingboy Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:07 PM (#4245788)
Wonder if there are any plans for a English release.
   4. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:09 PM (#4245790)
People who use always think that "everyone is doing it".
   5. crict Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:24 PM (#4245800)
I just read a few more articles in french on this:

-one claimed the 3-year period that he admits using is 2002-04. Not clear from the actual quotes of the book I've seen.
-he openly discussed his use with a team doctor while with the Dodgers. Doctor insisted that if he was going to use, he should follow a protocol. Doctor then gave a clear protocol to follow.
-claims his career was cut short (4-5 years) because of his use.
   6. Walt Davis Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4245805)
1. Unless recent studies have found otherwise, the evidence is that HGH doesn't enhance performance.

2. He is admitting use AFTER his period of dominance. Of course I haven't read the book, maybe he discusses actual PED use earlier in his career as well.

3. The cocktail of painkillers is quite believable and is reminiscent of Clemens' use of Vioxx late in his career (before it was taken off the market -- I assume he just switched to another powerful painkiller). Nobody seems to consider these PEDs although it seems they are often considered essential to take the field.

4. Regarding the 80%, "substance" is awfully broad.

EDIT: 5. Surely it should be "I, 80 percent of Dodgers used HGH." Also since he's talking the last 3 years of his career, his teammates were Dodgers only for the first of those years.

EDIT 2: Now I see #5 so maybe he is talking about his dominant period. That would at least be a story.
   7. morineko Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:28 PM (#4245806)
Oh, great, a book about a Brewer that I can't read. Wrong second language. Help. Anyone know if he discusses anything about the 2008 team in there?
   8. Dale Sams Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:55 PM (#4245820)
Can we have David Murphy back now?
   9. crict Posted: September 25, 2012 at 10:56 PM (#4245821)
To clarify post #5, from what I can gather, he admits that he started using after a minor knee injury, during his great stretch. Most likely during 2004 season or in 2005, when he suffered a knee injury in ST, modified his motion and blew his arm.
   10. spycake Posted: September 25, 2012 at 11:04 PM (#4245824)
Maybe HGH means something different in French? Le HGH?
   11. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 25, 2012 at 11:12 PM (#4245826)
-he openly discussed his use with a team doctor while with the Dodgers. Doctor insisted that if he was going to use, he should follow a protocol. Doctor then gave a clear protocol to follow.


This is the money quote that the owners/Selig don't want to be true/heard.

If the teams were HELPING the players use the evil drugs...
   12. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: September 25, 2012 at 11:19 PM (#4245829)
Maybe HGH means something different in French? Le HGH?


Probably le AJWE, pronounced "HGH". For no other reason than so they can correct you when you say it wrong.
   13. shoewizard Posted: September 25, 2012 at 11:21 PM (#4245830)
This is the money quote that the owners/Selig don't want to be true/heard.

If the teams were HELPING the players use the evil drugs...


If ? If ?

I'm sure plenty of guys used PED's without help from any club personnel. I am equally sure that plenty of guys used PED's with assistance from some club personnel. Does anyone really believe any differently ?

I guess it is pretty big news to have that accusation out there in a book though.
   14. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 25, 2012 at 11:27 PM (#4245838)
The ultimate PED: HGH is the perfect drug because it doesn't do anything and it's evil
   15. crict Posted: September 25, 2012 at 11:37 PM (#4245849)
Ok, found an excerpt from the book (in french).

-Started using prior to 2002 season. Really wanted to make the team that year, had a plan to try out as a reliever after failing as a starter, but had a knee injury and wanted to be ready for spring training.
-Got them from a teammate.
-Mentions he had two experiences with PED before: in 2000, a teammate put a greenie in his coffee after he complained of tired legs. In 2001, while in the Dodgers clubhouse, heard a discussion between a trainer, a team doctor and an unidentified third person about HGH: Third person (player?) asked about HGH, their effects. He was told that that were undetectable, legal and able to cut recovery time in half.
   16. Gold Star - just Gold Star Posted: September 25, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4245854)
Wasn't it already known the Dodgers were heavy into PEDs at that time? LoDuca, for one. Todd Hundley, IIRC, was sort of the team's Patient Zero when it came to that thing.
   17. Tripon Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:19 AM (#4245877)
The scuttlebutt is that DePo and the Dodgers front office at the time knew about the steroid culture and tried to clean it up as much as they could. Not because they thought it was morally wrong, but because they didn't want to be caught with declining players when they juice off. Of course, these moves got Bill Plaschke and T.J. Simers to go nuclear on DePo.
   18. shoewizard Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:23 AM (#4245881)
The scuttlebutt is that DePo and the Dodgers front office at the time knew about the steroid culture and tried to clean it up as much as they could. Not because they thought it was morally wrong, but because they didn't want to be caught with declining players when they juice off. Of course, these moves got Bill Plaschke and T.J. Simers to go nuclear on DePo.


Plaschke and Simers articles blasting Depo for allowing culture of drugs in clubhouse in 3.2.1.....
   19. cardsfanboy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:30 AM (#4245883)
I think the 80% number is massively high, people are horrible at estimating percentages unless they take the time to really think about it. On a 25 man roster that means there were 5 who weren't using? That just seems like an absurdly high number.
   20. shoewizard Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:48 AM (#4245891)
People said the same thing when Caminiti said it was at least half.
   21. cardsfanboy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:52 AM (#4245894)
And I think people are right.
   22. shoewizard Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:27 AM (#4245905)
I think when Caminiti said it he was right.
   23. shoewizard Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:28 AM (#4245906)
double
   24. boteman Posted: September 26, 2012 at 01:33 AM (#4245908)
Is it still OK to listen to Vin Scully at least???
   25. valuearbitrageur Posted: September 26, 2012 at 02:00 AM (#4245913)
Doctor insisted that if he was going to use, he should follow a protocol. Doctor then gave a clear protocol to follow.


Isn't this the way it should be? A Doctor's job is to advise you in how to protect your health. If you are going to undertake any drug regime you would think any Doctor, whether on team payroll or not, would do their best to ensure you do it as safely as possible. Even if it was non-prescription. Even if it's against MLB rules, especially during a period where the MLB did not have the right to test or punish players for using PEDs.

I would think the Doctor offering correct medical advice is morally correct in doing so even the drugs are illegal. Doctors can't stop patients from doing many things, but they can try to help and protect them as best as possible.
   26. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: September 26, 2012 at 02:55 AM (#4245918)
A Doctor's job is to advise you in how to protect your health.

In that case shouldn't the doctor have advised against the use of HGH and greenies?
   27. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: September 26, 2012 at 03:09 AM (#4245920)
I think the 80% number is massively high

I love it when people do this. "I have no way of knowing anything about it, but I'm going to say that the guy who was right in the middle of the situation is completely wrong". Self confidence: A blessing and a curse.
   28. AJMcCringleberry Posted: September 26, 2012 at 03:38 AM (#4245921)
In that case shouldn't the doctor have advised against the use of HGH and greenies?

Who said he didn't?
   29. BrianBrianson Posted: September 26, 2012 at 04:27 AM (#4245925)
On a 25 man roster that means there were 5 who weren't using?


Assuming PEDs actually improve performance, when you were functionally allowed to use them, you'd have to be stupid not to. I could believe only 5 of the 25 Dodgers were stupid, though it does seem like a low number.
   30. Walt Davis Posted: September 26, 2012 at 05:16 AM (#4245926)
I could believe only 5 of the 25 Dodgers were stupid, though it does seem like a low number.

10 dogs >> 5 Dodgers >> 1 LaSorda
   31. Walt Davis Posted: September 26, 2012 at 05:26 AM (#4245927)
On percentage usage, it depends on usage of what.

I assume roughly 100% of professional athletes use anything and everything they think is legal and effective.

I assume a good chunk of the stuff they thought was legal wasn't.

I assume a good chunk of the stuff that was legal had some nasty #### in it -- because that's an unregulated industry not to mention all the guys getting stuff in the DR.

I assume an extremely high percentage of baseball players used greenies. They were ubiquitous, they had special players' coffee for crying out loud. Anybody who didn't use them probably didn't use them because they had a bad reaction. And note we still have a fairly high number of exemptions for ADHD prescriptions.

Then you get steroids, etc. on top of that.

Now I assume Gagne means "illegal" substances but I don't expect Gagne to know what's legal or not nor do I expect him to really know what guys were on.
   32. Ivan Grushenko of Hong Kong Posted: September 26, 2012 at 05:56 AM (#4245929)
Who said he didn't?

Who said the doctor was a "he"? Obviously the doctor didn't stop at "I advise you not to use these things", if the doctor of indeterminate gender also said that if you plan to use these things you should follow protocol. The very fact that there was a "protocol" for performance enhancement is telling.

Assuming PEDs actually improve performance, when you were functionally allowed to use them, you'd have to be stupid not to.

Only if you think caring about your long term health is stupid
   33. Lassus Posted: September 26, 2012 at 08:04 AM (#4245952)
Human nature being what it is, I'm more inclined to believe Gagne is covering his ass, than his figures. Consciously or subconsciously.
   34. Jose Is The Most Absurd Thing on the Site Posted: September 26, 2012 at 08:28 AM (#4245957)
Is it still OK to listen to Vin Scully at least???


His career has been curiously long and with an unusually high peak.

And don't even get me started on that rather suspicious hair.
   35. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:04 AM (#4245977)

I think the 80% number is massively high, people are horrible at estimating percentages unless they take the time to really think about it. On a 25 man roster that means there were 5 who weren't using? That just seems like an absurdly high number.


Not that he's the most reliable source, but this is the same figure Jose Canseco pegged total PED usage at. Basically, 4 out of every 5 ballplayers are doing *something* to get ahead. The rest either look it but somehow aren't (Frank Thomas) or were hyper-athletic freaks (Ken Griffey Jr.)
   36. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:25 AM (#4245989)
Isn't this the way it should be? A Doctor's job is to advise you in how to protect your health. If you are going to undertake any drug regime you would think any Doctor, whether on team payroll or not, would do their best to ensure you do it as safely as possible. Even if it was non-prescription. Even if it's against MLB rules, especially during a period where the MLB did not have the right to test or punish players for using PEDs.

I would think the Doctor offering correct medical advice is morally correct in doing so even the drugs are illegal. Doctors can't stop patients from doing many things, but they can try to help and protect them as best as possible.


I'm fairly confident that if I told my doctor I was going to start using cocaine, the only advice would be "Don't"

A doctor won't advise you on how to take illegal drugs b/c they'd open themselves to liability in the case that you follow their advice, and have bad health effects.
   37. cardsfanboy Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:49 AM (#4246006)
I love it when people do this. "I have no way of knowing anything about it, but I'm going to say that the guy who was right in the middle of the situation is completely wrong". Self confidence: A blessing and a curse.


The guy in the middle of it, unless he has trained himself to be objective, is probably the last guy you want to ask that question from. I know people who swear that 80% of the people on the planet are habitual pot smokers, because the group they hang with, that is the case. I can grab another group and they'll say less than 10%.

I do not think for a second, that in a group of 25 or so people, that one person is privy to all 25 drug habits, to the point that they could make a definitive number. Heck, I doubt that Gagne could name even 8 people who he knew for a fact that used(talking about first hand knowledge he had while he was playing, not after the fact knowledge) . People don't hang in larger groups than that frequently enough to know that type of information.

If I'm doing enhancements, I sure as hell don't let the rest of the team know in case they get traded, or if there is a personal fight with them etc. Even if the doctors are helping, unless it's my workout partner, I'm not going to be advertising my use to everyone on the team. I know athletes are dumb, but generally nobody is that dumb.
   38. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:50 AM (#4246007)
I'm fairly confident that if I told my doctor I was going to start using cocaine, the only advice would be "Don't"

A doctor won't advise you on how to take illegal drugs b/c they'd open themselves to liability in the case that you follow their advice, and have bad health effects.
I should ask the doctor in the house, as I think this is broadly correct, but there's a significant difference between illegal drugs that have bad health effects, and illegal drugs that don't. She's never advised someone (other than psych patients) against taking marijuana because, well, it isn't bad for you to any meaningful degree. But she has a very pointed "cocaine kills people" speech. HGH looks a lot more like marijuana than cocaine to me.

(This doesn't mean she has or would advise a certain protocol of marijuana use, so your basic point is correct. But there's a distinction to be made here between cocaine and HGH.)
   39. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4246015)
My GP told me to have a good time when I went off to college regarding alcohol and drugs. His advice was moderation, but that if I didn't go overboard drugs wouldn't hurt me. This was a doctor at Kaiser Permanente, too, not some quirky independent practice. I didn't do any drugs normally so I thought his advice was pretty funny.

If I'm doing enhancements, I sure as hell don't let the rest of the team know in case they get traded, or if there is a personal fight with them etc. Even if the doctors are helping, unless it's my workout partner, I'm not going to be advertising my use to everyone on the team. I know athletes are dumb, but generally nobody is that dumb.

I think at the time we're talking about, the PEDs were so ubiquitous and banal no one cared. I doubt the players were keeping these things secret from each other. I wouldn't be surprised if they were exchanging regimen tips.
   40. Nasty Nate Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:57 AM (#4246016)
I'm fairly confident that if I told my doctor I was going to start using cocaine, the only advice would be "Don't"


A good doctor would both tell you "Don't" (and explain why) but also be willing to offer harm-reduction advice if you insisted on ignoring his recommendation and planned on using.
   41. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4246029)
Gagne's drug use has ruined "Welcome to the Jungle" for me.
   42. Jesse Barfield's Right Arm Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4246030)
A doctor won't advise you on how to take illegal drugs b/c they'd open themselves to liability in the case that you follow their advice, and have bad health effects.

This is a very very naive claim. I have a great doctor too, one who would never condone something like this, but to believe that all doctors act this way in order to profit is to deny a fundamental (if morally dubious) aspect of human nature to a whole profession. Do you also think no lawyers instruct their clients to act illegally?
   43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:24 AM (#4246054)
Do you also think no lawyers instruct their clients to act illegally?

Sure, but then they're acting as co-conspirators, not lawyers.

I'm sure there are doctors actively dealing drugs. A reputable doctor doesn't.
   44. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4246055)
Is he removing himself from consideration from the Rolaids Relief Man Award?
   45. Nasty Nate Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4246056)
I'm sure there are doctors actively dealing drugs. A reputable doctor doesn't.


well, not illegal ones...
   46. depletion Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:27 AM (#4246059)
Here's a tip. If you want to sell a lot of copies of a baseball book, write it in a) English, b)Spanish or c) Japanese.
   47. bunyon Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:28 AM (#4246060)
I'm sure there are doctors actively dealing drugs. A reputable doctor doesn't.

A reputable doctor will also advise moderation if one insists on smoking. Or eating fried foods. Doctors are supposed to help you, not lecture to you or preach to you. They say "you shouldn't" but, if you do, then, for the love of god, don't do it "this way".
   48. Greg Schuler Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4246065)
I think the distinction needs to be made between a Doctor and a Team Doctor. A Team Doctor will do whatever the team needs to keep players on the fields - I would guess the attitude does not differ much between sports. Isn't the competency of some medical staffs routinely called into question? It wouldn't surprise me one bit if a Team Doctor did whatever it took continue as the Team Doctor, as I believe it has a measurable impact on their practice and income. Therefore, a player receiving advice from a Team Doctor about using illegal drugs or substances doesn't surprise me one bit. I am happy to proved wrong, but the public knowledge of the actions of Team Doctors in other sports doesn't lead me to believe that those associated with baseball teams are moral paragons of the Hippocratic oath.
   49. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4246076)
The best team doctor story comes from rugby in England. I don't know much about rugby but evidently there is a rule against substitutions at some point except in the case of injury. In one game, a particular team wanted to sub a guy when they had no subs left so the player feigned an injury and when the team doctor went out to check on him, the team doctor cut the player open so they could sub the player off. Unfortunately for all involved it was caught on tape and the doctor ended up losing his license to practice.
   50. Heinie Mantush (Krusty) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4246077)

I think at the time we're talking about, the PEDs were so ubiquitous and banal no one cared. I doubt the players were keeping these things secret from each other. I wouldn't be surprised if they were exchanging regimen tips.


The steroid firestorm began in earnest in '02 with the Caminiti revelation (a decade later and we're STILL trying to clean this mess up in the court of public opinion!) The entirety of Gagne's big run took place during the steroid wars, which only really began to recede after the publication of the Mitchell Report and the step back towards historically normal run levels.
   51. Mirabelli Dictu (Chris McClinch) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:35 AM (#4246079)
Assuming PEDs actually improve performance, when you were functionally allowed to use them, you'd have to be stupid not to.

Only if you think caring about your long term health is stupid


There are plenty out there who believe the long-term health impacts of PED use to be overstated. Sure, if you're using multiple grams a week for years at a time like a professional bodybuilder or professional wrestler, there are some pretty serious effects.

If you're running 12-week cycles with reasonable doses, good post-cycle therapy, and lengthy periods off, however (i.e., the typical protocol for responsible use), the long-term effects are almost certainly minimal.

Given that Manny popped for a post-cycle therapy drug and that Gagne is specifically saying the team doctor gave him a protocol, I'd assume that the common use case in MLB is more likely the latter than the former.
   52. depletion Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4246086)
If you think baseball doctors have issues, imagine a boxing doctor or a football doctor, particularly during the football steroid era. If a boxing doctor were actually doing their job, the only advice they would give is "don't box anymore".
   53. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:45 AM (#4246094)
I think #48 hits the nail on the head.

I have no doubt that there are good team doctors and bad team doctors. I expect there are team doctors who will do whatever the team wants, and there are team doctors who take the health of the players very seriously and won't jeopardize that even if it threatens there job, and then there are a bunch of team doctors in the grey area between those two positions.

Most doctors I've met take the Hippocratic oath pretty seriously. However, most human beings I've met are subject to pressures, biases and influences, often without even being aware of it. And I don't think we're in any position to even guess what any given team doctor would do in any given situation.

Having said all of that, #47 is how I would expect a "typical" doctor (not necessarily "team doctor") to react: "Don't do it. It's very bad for you. But if you're determined to do it, then at LEAST do it this way..."
   54. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:50 AM (#4246100)
imagine a boxing doctor or a football doctor, particularly during the football steroid era

Isn't the football steroid era also known as Now?
   55. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:51 AM (#4246104)
A good doctor would both tell you "Don't" (and explain why) but also be willing to offer harm-reduction advice if you insisted on ignoring his recommendation and planned on using.
The most obvious example here is advising the use of clean needles to heroin addicts. A doctor who doesn't give that advice, even though it is advice in a sense on how to use heroin, is doing wrong by her patients.

The problem with the HGH analogy is that I don't know if there's any evidence about more and less healthful ways of using HGH. The "protocol" thing sounds more like a doctor advising a more effective way of using HGH.
   56. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:52 AM (#4246108)
I dunno; I have the vague feeling that it used to be a lot worse. I mean, every now and then I see players suspended for something or other; that didn't happen when I was a kid (or at least, I can't recall it happening). I mean, Jim Miller got suspended several years ago for some crap he got at GNC, IIRC.
   57. Best Regards, President of Comfort, Esq. Posted: September 26, 2012 at 10:55 AM (#4246113)
Shouldn't it be "I, ‘80 percent’ of Dodgers used HGH"

I mean, it wouldn't be "Me used HGH".
   58. depletion Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:01 PM (#4246198)
Isn't the football steroid era also known as Now?

I suppose you could make that arguement. The NFL started testing in 1987 and has suspended a number of players. Pre 1987 it certainly was open bar; how effectively the testing rules have "cleaned up" the NFL is open to interpretation.
   59. zenbitz Posted: September 26, 2012 at 12:43 PM (#4246264)

Gagne's drug use has ruined "Welcome to the Jungle" for me.


Nice.
But Mr. Brownstone doesn't really have that closer vibe.
   60. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 03:56 PM (#4246478)
The best team doctor story comes from rugby in England. I don't know much about rugby but evidently there is a rule against substitutions at some point except in the case of injury. In one game, a particular team wanted to sub a guy when they had no subs left so the player feigned an injury and when the team doctor went out to check on him, the team doctor cut the player open so they could sub the player off. Unfortunately for all involved it was caught on tape and the doctor ended up losing his license to practice.


If you are referring to Bloodgate the details are slightly different. The player bit a blood capsule to feign injury, then demanded the team doctor cut his lip in the locker room because he was afraid he would be examined after the game. The doctor was suspended from her practice, but was cleared to work again, although not in the sports work any more probably.
   61. ecwcat Posted: September 26, 2012 at 04:11 PM (#4246504)
Walt Davis
1. Unless recent studies have found otherwise, the evidence is that HGH doesn't enhance performance.

So you ignore anecdotal evidence from Andy Pettitte, who said it helped his recovery with the Astros.
I know body builders that testify it gives them more energy and focus with their training.
   62. Don Geovany Soto (chris h.) Posted: September 26, 2012 at 05:30 PM (#4246604)
I know body builders that testify it gives them more energy and focus with their training.

I know athletes who swear they get a real energy boost from wearing a copper bracelet.
   63. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 26, 2012 at 06:32 PM (#4246665)
I'd be curious to hear the negative health impacts he's attributing to HGH.


He's now 9 feet tall. Bumps his head on stuff all the time.
   64. Walt Davis Posted: September 26, 2012 at 06:56 PM (#4246689)
So you ignore anecdotal evidence from Andy Pettitte, who said it helped his recovery with the Astros.

Yes.

I know body builders that testify it gives them more energy and focus with their training.

It was probably this belief that led to them to start using in the first place.
   65. Walt Davis Posted: September 26, 2012 at 07:54 PM (#4246726)
By the way, my understanding of the literature (based on reading reviews of the literature) is that HGH does improve lean body mass (you will look better) but doesn't build strength. From the Wiki page:

"Claims that growth hormone enhances physical performance are not supported by the scientific literature. Although the limited available evidence suggests that growth hormone increases lean body mass, it may not improve strength; in addition, it may worsen exercise capacity and increase adverse events. More research is needed to conclusively determine the effects of growth hormone on athletic performance."[4]
Here's your wiki: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Growth_hormone_in_sports

In short, you will look better but there's no evidence you will perform better. Looking better would be reason enough for its supposed popularity among actors, rappers, and "non-serious" bodybuilders.

It may help injury recovery and/or resistance ... wouldn't that be a good thing? Also from Wiki:

HGH may build up connective tissue within muscles, at least in the short term.[6] If these effects are real they “may promote resistance to injury or faster repair [but] would make the muscle no more capable of force generation”.[6] With the release of the Mitchell Report on December 13, 2007, 86 players were revealed to have taken steroids while playing in the Major Leagues. The report stated: "Players who use Human Growth Hormone apparently believe that it assists their ability to recover from injuries and fatigue".[9]

At the very least, such usage meets Andy's silly "restorative" criterion and therefore should be OK in Andy's universe. That statement is consistent with Pettitte's anecdote and your claim about bodybuilders but, y'know, has some actual scientific evidence behind it.
   66. Srul Itza Posted: September 26, 2012 at 08:18 PM (#4246732)
how effectively the testing rules have "cleaned up" the NFL is open to interpretation.


Only if you are cosmically naive and believe that we are living in a golden age of 320+ pound linemen running 4.5 40's.
   67. Srul Itza Posted: September 26, 2012 at 08:22 PM (#4246735)
So you ignore anecdotal evidence from Andy Pettitte, who said it helped his recovery with the Astros.


Helping with recovery is not the same thing as enhancing performance, unless you also want to classify antibiotics, corticosteroids and physical therapy as "enhancing performance". I would also note that Andy is anything but a rocket scientist, and that it is impossible to determine how he would have recovered from that injury, at that time, if he did not use it.

So you ignore anecdotal evidence from Andy Pettitte, who said it helped his recovery with the Astros.


Of course, if they were taking hGH they were almost certainly taking a lot of other things, making cause and effect more than a little difficult to parse.
   68. AJMcCringleberry Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:02 PM (#4246760)
Didn't Sheffield say steroids did nothing for him? I guess that means steroids are not performance enhancing. I'm glad we cleared that up.
   69. alilisd Posted: September 26, 2012 at 09:25 PM (#4246780)
cfb, why does that seem high to you? As other shave pointed put, amps, hgh and aas were all prevalent and these guys are looking at 7 or 8 figure salaries if they stay in the bigs or very possibly coaching for a fraction of that, or having no marketable skills whatsoever, if they don't. HUGE incentive to get any edge you can.

Also, your assertion people don't hang out in groups of 8 or more is sort of N/A fr a group of 25 guys who spend several hours a day together for about 6 months. Flights, pre game, dugout, bullpen, post game, spring training. They spend lots of time together in groups much larger than 8.
   70. DFA Posted: September 27, 2012 at 01:57 AM (#4246896)
Gagne's drug use has ruined "Welcome to the Jungle" for me.


I appreciate your ability to not let the '90s or the 2000's ruin that for you...
   71. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: September 27, 2012 at 04:09 AM (#4246919)
I know body builders that testify it gives them more energy and focus with their training.

I played rugby for years with a guy in his 30's who had an issue with his knee. He had the knee surgically repaired and it didn't bring the knee back 100%. Approx two years later, rather than have the knee done again, he used steroids to strengthen it/rehabilitate it. It brought the knee back closer to 100% and he played another 3 years or so before it was a issue again. I would never do it, but that guy felt it was a better option than surgery again, and the results did seem to work in his favor.

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