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1. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: March 28, 2010 at 02:54 AM (#3487366)The Yankees will be desperate for a starter after this season, though. They certainly won't be wanting to resign Javy Vazquez Part II, and probably won't be wanting Pettitte anymore, either. With the way Clay Buchholz and Daiske Matsusaka are going, the Red Sox will be desperate for a starter, too. They'll probably wind up with Vazquez . . .
Josh is a better pitcher in every measurable way than is Lackey. And Lackey's injury history is more recent than is Beckett's. Still, the Sox go five years on John, but won't go five on Josh.
Well, if they gave him 5 years now, with a year left on his contract, they would in effect be betting on 6 years out, so it shouldn't hurt that much. If he has a good season, or even a good half season, I wouldn't be shocked to see this revisited.
I suppose it's possible that they see Beckett and Lackey as roughly equal -- not an outrageous conculsion -- but they feel that there are better options coming open next year or the year after or . . . something.
Frankly, I don't get the need or rush to sign beckett before he reaches free agency given the sox pitcjing depth and money.
I don't understand this logic... why would the Yankees "certainly" not want to resign Vasquez but the Sox will want him?
Is it really that hard to argue for Lackey over Beckett? Lackey has put up ERA+ numbers of 150, 118, and 119 the last three years. Beckett 145, 115, 122. If your medical staff believes that despite Beckett's greater recent durability, Lackey is the better health bet going forward, you'd take John Lackey as the better option based on the numbers.
Beckett's got that same stuff that made him the greatest prep pitcher evar, but he's gonna be 30 this year and has only once put together a Cy Young season. I'd still probably take him over Lackey based on stuff, but I can understand why someone would have ceased hoping.
An agent can't negotiate with other teams while their player is under contract. But he can certainly talk about news stories. All he needs is for a few GMs to make comments like TVerik did above, and he knows he has a potential market for a 5-year deal this winter.
Honestly, I don't know where the leaks are coming from this time. And I'm not denying the FO has done stuff like this in the past - the main reason Epstein left the team way back when was because he thought leaks like this (from Lucchino) were not in the best interest of the team. But that's my point. Since Epstein returned there have been far fewer mid-negotiation "slagging" leaks.
Add ESPN to my "media mouthpiece for the Red Sox front office" list. As of now the list includes:
ESPN
The Boston Globe
Tracy Ringolsby
David Biderman
Deadspin
Paul Sullivan
The St. Louis Cardinals
BTF
Jason Bay
Toolsy McClutch
I think it's worth noting that while the Sox gave Lackey five years, they included a protection based on a potential shoulder injury. Reading between the lines I get the sense that the Sox have asked Beckett to take the same clause in his deal and he is rejecting it.
Without RTFA, I don't think it was the article that took a shot at Beckett. The shot is (assuming source is true), Lackey is a year older than Beckett and got 5 years. The Sox are holding at 4. Maybe Beckett accepts that it's a business and doesn't take it as a personal insult, but if I'm Josh Beckett, hearing that would definitely gives me pause.
On the broader issue, when they signed Lackey, I assumed it was because they didn't think they'd be able to bring back Beckett (or wouldn't want to). I'm not surprised that they don't want to commit to him for 6 years from now, especially since they have Lackey/Lester locked up. It's a bummer, though, and I won't be surprised to see him in NY next year.
Pedro - FA. Greedy, simply using Boston to bid up others. Wanted to leave. Injury risk.
Lowe - FA. Two-timing drunk.
Mientkiewicz - traded. He stole our ball!
Payton - traded. ######## about playing time, to the point that Saint Terry wanted him out.
Damon - FA. He didn't want to play here, the liar. (More a fan construct than FO message.)
------------- Gorillagate ----------------
Renteria - traded.
Arroyo - traded.
Wells - traded.
Foulke - FA.
Nixon - FA.
Pineiro - traded.
Clement - FA.
Gagne - FA.
Ramirez - traded. Towel-smearing, geezer-shoving, optionally-running, non-fielding flake.
Schilling - FA.
Crisp - traded.
Lugo - traded.
Smoltz - released.
Penny - released.
Bay - FA. Injury risk.
Now, maybe I don't remember the FO throwing these players under the bus. I remember fans throwing some of them under the bus based on performace, and I remember a small handful of the players taking the low road. The only one with a bunch of negative stuff coming out about him was Manny, but the towel-smearing thing was out of the Cleveland clubhouse, and the geezer-shoving thing was made known by media friends of the geezer. The rest was, well, true to any observer. And as much as people wanted to make something out of the Bay departure, Boston "sources" merely said they wanted him for longer but were concerned about his injury risk. Bay took it a LOT further.
Note that above I'm focusing on players who parted ways with the Red Sox. To my recollection there weren't any acrimonious negotiations that ended up with the player signing with Boston anyway (except maybe Matsuzaka). In some of the cases the "negotiations" were simply, "See ya," without any slagging.
Did I leave any out? Am I missing the acrimony?
Depends on how they're structured. Many (most?) aren't really "mutual" as in both sides need to agree. They're structured such that the team has an option at, say, $8 M and (if they don't exercise it) the player has an option at $6. (That would be for somebody worse than Beckett obviously). So if the team thinks the guy is worth $8 or more and they've got the money, they'll take him at $8. If they don't and the player thinks he can get more than $6 elsewhere, he declines too; otherwise he exercises his option.
They must be a bear to negotiate and price. In the scenario above, you run the risk that it acts like an $8 M option with a $6 M buyout -- which no team would agree to. So, to be "fair", the team price has to be set such that they've got a tough decision and the player price such that he's got a tough decision and all based on where you think the market might be 4-5 years from now. Seems like it would always be an unnecessary risk for a team when they're signing a pitcher -- a team option with a few million buyout seems safer (if that little extra is required).
- - - - - -
OK, setting all that aside for now, I'm going to pick on #22 - not because I want to pick on MCoA (I don't*), but rather because the comment encapsulates the stereotypical reaction to these kinds of leaks. It plays on fan sympathy for the FO? To what end do they need to start angling for FO sympathy now? They want fans to like the team, buy Beckett jerseys, etc. Nobody's buying a Ben Cherington jersey. Giving fans the impression that they might tear apart a team they're ready to like seems unwise at best and just plain stupid at worst. If Beckett leaves, then I could see the argument that they'd want to
throw him under the busexplain their rationale in negotiations. But now?One could posit that they want to convince Beckett to meet their demands by getting public opinion on their side. But the same argument could be made that Beckett wants to convince the Red Sox to meet his demands by directing public opinion. Based on the way this is written, it sounds (to me) more like the latter. The article is written as if to say, "The Red Sox refuse to give Josh Beckett a deal as good as John Lackey's, despite having no valid reason for doing so." That's one hell of a FO leak.
* Why would I? He nailed the description of the Javier Vazquez Experience™.
That is, of course, relevant...though probably not helpful to what you were trying to show. That's not to say there isn't a question to be asked, I think, but the bottom-line is that the totality of those things seems to be mis and overstated rather often, as it was here.
I don't think it's likely that it's an orchestrated FO leak designed to make Beckett look bad, but I wouldn't be shocked if this were the case.
But you've got to answer how this would lower his demands. As VI points out, this article essentially says that the Sox are being jerks for not giving Beckett as much as Lackey got.
I read something awhile ago from an orthopedic surgeon, saying that "99% of veteran pitchers have conditions that could fail a physical, should the team want that". If the narrative about Beckett is pushed towards "fragile health, long-term", I think enough evidence could be found to support it that Josh's FA price is depressed noticeably.
The health issue is no easy call, mind you. Lackey was incredibly durable through his 2007 season. Beckett, on the other hand, has pitched 200+ innings in three of the last four seasons. I would prefer Beckett but it's a very marginal difference.
Still, a FA has more leverage than a guy in his last year of team control. The Sox didn't have the luxury of choosing between paying Lackey a relatively small amount in 2010 to mitigate the risk in exchange for potentially losing him in 2011 to a higher bidder. Plus, even if they lose him, they'll get a great draft pick in return. They had to overpay Lackey in this offseason in order to make sure he didn't go elsewhere because there was nothing else out there that was reliable. They're not under the gun with Beckett.
Well, they could have gone after Holliday, who as a non-pitcher is automatically more reliable, and would probably have made the team better this year and into the future. That would have actually been my preference.
The bit about the Marlins capping his innings I find questionable -- he had chronic blister problems and was age 21-25, both of which were already limiting his innings. Regardless, it's much more likely this came from someone who was in the Florida FO at the time, not a current Sox official.
The rest of the "negative" stuff in the piece, about the Sox trading for and extending Beckett despite concerns about his shoulder, has been out for years.
I'd agree with that, but I don't think Holliday was going anywhere but St. Louis.
Time will tell on Bay, though generally speaking being signed by the Mets is a leading indicator of severe injury.
Regarding Beckett/Lackey, I suggested a while ago that Lackey is Beckett's replacement, with one year of overlap... kinda like Schilling with Pedro, though with them I see it that way only in retrospect.
Hmm, it's almost like he's poking fun at his source.
I can see this. In any case, the Lackey signing gives them leverage in their negotiations with Beckett. Reports like this suggest to me that the Sox have a price for Beckett that is below market and that's why they are trying to get this done before he reaches free agency. If Beckett, however, is willing to risk pitching another year without the security of a longer-term deal, than I think the Sox have already concluded he won't be coming back in 2011.
I think that the Red Sox, particularly certain parts of the front office, want the fans to believe that the front office is in the right, during major negotiations. As you note, there's a problem here in that no one buys Larry Lucchino jerseys, but their history on this is clear. I assume it's mostly an ego thing, partly a case of losing perspective in the course of negotiations.
To be clear, I found the analysis in your post 25 compelling, and I think it does appear that the Red Sox are doing this a lot less than they used to. That's a really good thing.
Damon? The guy who played well and for 140+ games per year every season with the Yankees? I can see that he might not have fit in the team's plans, needing to move out of center field, obviously can never play in right, and not going to move Manny Ortez from the LF/DH spots. But this is not like the Pedro situation, where the team was right that he wouldn't hold up for as many years as he was offered elsewhere. Damon was worth pretty much exactly what the Yankees paid him over the last 4 years.
I am surprised that nobody has mentioned yet that Lackey and Beckett are each other's most similar players on Baseball-Reference (although Lackey is a year older so they are not the most similar at their current ages).
I never realized that before, but come to think of it, both are total ##########.
Someone has been writing a paper.
That's pretty funny.
(sorry MCOA, but it is)
Of course, the article very clearly states Boston's reason for doing so (worries about Beckett's shoulder longterm), and it introduces previously unpublished (IIRC) facts to lend support to that reason (medical records gave FLA and BOS reason to worry).
One might conclude that the stated reason is not valid because Beckett hasn't had a serious shoulder injury, but the article does not state so.
If your takeaway from this article doesn't include the fact that the Sox are worried about Beckett's future because of what they've seen in the medical records, then it's no wonder that you think accusations of front office leaks are wrongheaded.
Did your list already include Gordon Edes? Because he's the one who wrote the article.
No. Well, unless he's Toolsy McClutch...
Well, I think Damon was worth more to the Yankees, than he would have been to the Red Sox. 4 years of Damon in CF likely would have been a disaster. And Boston already had encumbents in LF and at DH.
I think a lot of those departures are basically "These are what we'd take for you to stay, but if you go, we'll take the compensation picks".
yes, it introduces three pieces of information that we didn't previously know: 1) The Red Sox won't go 5 years with Beckett, 2) The Marlins were concerned about Beckett's shoulder when he was in the minors, and 3) The Red Sox were concerned about Beckett's shoulder when they saw his medical records. Your theory is that not only were the Red Sox not the likely source of this information, but that Beckett's agent was.
Employing someone is very different from signing him to a huge extension.
The fact that Lackey missed time with injuries is very public knowledge that has been often discussed. Edes doesn't need Beckett's agent to tell him this. Conversely, Edes did need insider source(s) to tell him about Beckett's shoulder history. I don't understand the thought process that leads one to believe this information was more likely to have come from Beckett's agent than from the Red Sox.
ESPN article at the time of the trade, they reference Beckett having had a shoulder problem during the 2005 season;
I could see something like 4/70-72 with a team option/buyout for the 5th year when all is said and done (IF they can sign him).
Now that you're working with my summary theory rather than your somewhat hamhanded summary of my theory, I hope it's easier to understand.
The second "employment decision" I referenced was signing him to a big extension.
It'd be funny if their valuation system is 99% based on B-R similarity scores. Then again, if they go $82m for 5 years for Ted Higuera in the next few weeks, that wouldn't be funny at all.
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