Prince, you sure know a hell of a lot about me for someone who's made fewer than 200 comments.

You do understand that people can read the site without posting, don't you?

You mean like Ripken, Gwynn, Dimaggio, Banks, Murphy, Pujols, Griffey

St. Cal I will definitely give you --- probably Banks and possibly Dimaggio, but the rest, no way in hell. I have seen Griffey booed on the road many times in various places -- same with Gwynn. I've only seen Pujols in road games on the West Coast, but he has been booed, although not with the same passion as a Reggie Jackson. I assume the Murphy you are referring to is Dale Murphy, who really doesn't belong in that list of players, but I remember him getting the Riverfront Treatment in Cincinnati.

>>>Most opposing stars aren't usually booed <<<

Just where do you watch baseball games? I've witnessed Orioles' fans at Camden give it to opposing playing before, which I assume is the closest park to you.

>>> (a) they have a high profile which includes a certain amount of controversy, and / or (b) they play for a hated rival.
<<<<

Don't those qualifications comprise most stars on the road?

Harold was there.

I was there also. There were a good number of Giants fans there, as well as Dodgers and Angels' fans also, plus there was the typical smattering of fans from across the league that are always representative of a Padres' crowd. Many professed they came with the intent to boo, but they all came to see history. When it was made, most cheered. In my area, most of the few booing fans were Dodgers' fans, not Padres fans.

Prince, you sure know a hell of a lot about me for someone who's made fewer than 200 comments.

You do understand that people can read the site without posting, don't you?

Sure, just like I can also understand what compels some people to construct convoluted hypothetical dialogues involving someone they don't agree with. It takes all types.

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Opposing stars are usually booed in opposing stadiums, no matter how many children they have saved from burning buildings.

You mean like Ripken, Gwynn, Dimaggio, Banks, Murphy, Pujols, Griffey.....

St. Cal I will definitely give you --- probably Banks and possibly Dimaggio, but the rest, no way in hell. I have seen Griffey booed on the road many times in various places -- same with Gwynn. I've only seen Pujols in road games on the West Coast, but he has been booed, although not with the same passion as a Reggie Jackson. I assume the Murphy you are referring to is Dale Murphy, who really doesn't belong in that list of players, but I remember him getting the Riverfront Treatment in Cincinnati.

Even accepting the examples you give, those are still the exceptions rather than the rule. The word you used was "usually," and there's a clear distinction between the generic road reception given to a Gwynn or a Griffey or a Pujols and the reception given to players like A-Rod and Bonds.

Most opposing stars aren't usually booed unless (a) they have a high profile which includes a certain amount of controversy, and / or (b) they play for a hated rival.

Just where do you watch baseball games? I've witnessed Orioles' fans at Camden give it to opposing playing before, which I assume is the closest park to you. Don't those qualifications comprise most stars on the road?

Not really, unless you're talking about the Yankees or the Red Sox, who seem to be be hated in complete disproportion to their many good deeds. And perhaps that applies to a few West Coast rivalries and the Cubs vs the Cardinals or the Brewers. But rivalries like that don't constitute a majority of matchups. Before Angelos ruined the Orioles, I went to about 70 games in Camden Yards and attended a zillion games in Memorial Stadium, and unless it involved the Yankees or Boston, the vast majority of Orioles fans were always either indifferent or friendly to stars like Griffey. There are plenty of stars whose popularity extends to other cities, but not one of the best known juicers is among those.

Sure, just like I can also understand what compels some people to construct convoluted hypothetical dialogues involving someone they don't agree with. It takes all types.

Physician, heal thyself.

Sure, just like I can also understand what compels some people to construct convoluted hypothetical dialogues involving someone they don't agree with. It takes all types.

Physician, heal thyself.

My, what an imaginative comeback, Chipster. You're in rare form today.

And though I'm sure you can provide me countless examples of when I've actually done this outside the realm of your fertile imagination, just for grins why don't you name a couple? Try real hard not to change the subject.

Try real hard not to change the subject.

Tee. Hee.

I thought that was your m.o.

i've been to dodger stadium when they play the cardinals, and the fans don't really boo pujols, they nervously shift in their seats and shout out half-heartedly stuff like 'he's not all that great!' ... it's really kinda funny.

You do understand that people can read the site without posting, don't you?

In fact, people who are registered make up a small percentage of our daily readership. A minority of those registered have made posts. A minority of those have made posts post regularly.

Anyone who's among the high-volume posters will have a lot of people they've never heard of know who they are.

Even accepting the examples you give, those are still the exceptions rather than the rule.

I disagree. Stars who aren't usually booed on the road are exceptions.

>>>The word you used was "usually,"<<<<

Which means "commonly met with or observed in experience; ordinary:".

>>>there's a clear distinction between the generic road reception given to a Gwynn or a Griffey or a Pujols and the reception given to players like A-Rod and Bonds.<<<

The distinction with these players in terms of reception is the degree of how they are booed, not the frequency. I think we are talking about two different things. You appear to be referring to villain treatment, and you are right -- most stars don't get that type of treatment on the road.

I wouldn't put Griffey in the same category as Gwynn in terms of road treatment --- plenty of people weren't fond of Griffey.

>>>Not really, unless you're talking about the Yankees or the Red Sox, <<<<

I distinctly remember Indians not named Albert Belle getting crucified there during the nineties, and I am pretty certain that was before they had the two playoff matches in 1996 and 1997. After 1996 would change things though

>>>the vast majority of Orioles fans were always either indifferent or friendly to stars like Griffey<<<

Interesting -- was that before the Mariners and O's were good (pre 1996)?

>>>There are plenty of stars whose popularity extends to other cities, but not one of the best known juicers is among those.<<<<

I am not sure if there are plenty, but that isn't important. I'd say most of the known juicing stars weren't very popular outside their home team city before they were outed (A-Rod, Manny, Bonds, Sheffield). The ones that were popular (McGwire) were popular in a time when very, very few people wanted to even raise the question about steroids.

Anyone who's among the high-volume posters will have a lot of people they've never heard of know who they are.

Are you trying to scare some of us?

I've always been a big Frank Thomas fan. To me the saddest moment was when he was announced to bat in a road stadium to indifferent silence...no boos...no cheers...nothing.

My, what an imaginative comeback, Chipster. You're in rare form today.

Andy Andy Andy, you've been unusually cranky lately, almost like you're channeling Kevin (without the profanity, also he seemed to enjoy personally attacking people...)

A lot of guys have come through Arlington over the years I've been here and beaten the Rangers into submission: Brett, Molitor, Nomar, Vlad – but I can't really recall fans here booing them. Arlington fans don't get terribly excited about anything. Part of this is having a home team so undistinguished that the only reason to go to the park most of the time is to get to see Derek Jeter or David Ortiz or somebody. And on those nights, the Yankee or Red Sox fans outnumber the Ranger fans in any event. Heck, it's probably all the Texan Sox fans booing Ortiz, lately.

Andy, how did you get DiMaggio in that list. As a young player he was probably the most frequently booed player in the league.


EDIT: " [...] Everywhere he went, he got booed. He said he felt like some places the only reason those people had come to the game was to give DiMaggio the works. He got hate mail; he said that the way some of the letters read, you would have thought he kidnapped Lindbergh's baby." (reaction to Joe DiMaggio in the late 30s, early 40s)

Anyone who's among the high-volume posters will have a lot of people they've never heard of know who they are.

Sure, but do they get booed when they post at other blogs?

I still don't understand why people feel it's appropriate to boo at ballparks, but that notwithstanding, I've been to six games in St. Louis including 3 against the Cubs in 2000.
I'm still waiting to hear someone boo. (Though I lost a lot of respect for them given their over-the-top McGwire hero-worship and Jack Clark bashing.)

Same thing in Baltimore, including 2 games against the Yankees. Fans couldn't have been more civilized.

Didn't hear it in Houston either.

Given the extraordinary borishness we get to experience in New York, it was a pleasant change.
(I can't stand the Yankees, but hearing Yankees fans boo Rivera and Jeter is absurd.)

I still don't understand why people feel it's appropriate to boo at ballparks

Mental illness.

In fact, people who are registered make up a small percentage of our daily readership. A minority of those registered have made posts. A minority of those have made posts post regularly.

Anyone who's among the high-volume posters will have a lot of people they've never heard of know who they are.

And what makes you think that we don't have ways of knowing who they are? (Don't worry, Dan, I won't blow your cover.)

Hey, you lurkers out there----Why do you think this site crashes as often as it does?

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The distinction with these players in terms of reception is the degree of how they are booed, not the frequency. I think we are talking about two different things. You appear to be referring to villain treatment, and you are right -- most stars don't get that type of treatment on the road.

That's exactly what I was referring to.

I wouldn't put Griffey in the same category as Gwynn in terms of road treatment --- plenty of people weren't fond of Griffey.

See my reply about Dimaggio below. The reaction to Griffey was of a similar nature---fans often react negatively to "greedy" players---although with a modern twist. The point is that it was both specifically directed to one incident, and it was temporary. I can thoroughly understand his reception in Seattle, but since he didn't play there as a Red until 2007, it would have been kind of hard to measure that.

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Andy, how did you get DiMaggio in that list. As a young player he was probably the most frequently booed player in the league.

That was in reference to his early career holdouts, for which he was booed even more loudly in Yankee Stadium. That was a passing phase, and to give you an idea of what I'm talking about once that period was over with, he got loud applause in Fenway Park during the last Yankees-Red Sox series of 1948, when both teams were fighting to stave off elmination at the hands of the Indians; and even more dramatically, in the famous late June series of 1949, when he first returned into uniform after his bone spur injury and almost singlehandedly led the Yanks to a sweep of the Red Sox in Fenway Park. In spite of their tortured souls, the Red Sox fans still cheered him then, out of respect and admiration. Perhaps it was just a different time, but perhaps that was just the way Dimaggio was viewed all around the game.

And what Bob (#114) and dejarouehg (#117) are describing is exactly what I'm talking about. Outside of the context of a handful of heated rivalries, most stars today are usually treated with respect wherever they go.

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Andy Andy Andy, you've been unusually cranky lately,

Funny, but I'm thoroughly enjoying myself as always. Why don't you ask my ghostwriters how they're doing?

andy is doing fine. he feels chipper.

no prob there boy. happy to hep. ghost writing/talking comes natcheril to grrrrls anyhow...

where was i?

oh yeah - about booing:

albert pujols gets/got louder boos than barry lamar ever dreamed of. half respect, half hate.

of course, both barry lamar and albert pujols are kind of in a separate category from every other player...

i sure do miss barry lamar. Uncle is a fabulously great baseball player, and i know i have been privileged to watch him since day 1, but somehow, he just ain't as exciting as barry lamar...

lessee

carlos zambrano gets booed. jim edmonds ALWAYS got booed - especially after 04 playoffs. a-rod got serious booos.

albert pujols gets/got louder boos than barry lamar ever dreamed of. half respect, half hate.

Lisa, how can anyone "hate" Albert Pujols? I have to assume you're only talking about the kind of rivalry type of "hate" that stems from things like certain home runs in certain playoff games, but then I don't follow the National League much and I've heard they've got some strange fans over there.

Hey, you lurkers out there----Why do you think this site crashes as often as it does?

Crashes? I only notice that it's down for a few minutes at 2am EST every night, presumably for maintenance, scheduled at a time when all of the lightweights on the east coast are fast asleep.

Hey, you lurkers out there----Why do you think this site crashes as often as it does?

Crashes? I only notice that it's down for a few minutes at 2am EST every night, presumably for maintenance, scheduled at a time when all of the lightweights on the east coast are fast asleep.

Like I said, Ray---Don't ever change.

Prince, you sure know a hell of a lot about me for someone who's made fewer than 200 comments.

He's perceptive, because it got it exactly right. (Take it from someone with 14000 comments.) You love making a claim and then moving goalposts, and then throwing in more and more caveats until your claim is so narrow that it doesn't say anything at all.

He's perceptive, because it got it exactly right. (Take it from someone with 14000 comments.) You love making a claim and then moving goalposts, and then throwing in more and more caveats until your claim is so narrow that it doesn't say anything at all.

And the exchange here is a claaaaassic example of what you and Prince are saying. Andy's challenge was "Show me one example of when a known juicer has ever been cheered by opposing fans."

Bonds is seen by the public as The Ultimate Juicer. Bonds was cheered by fans in an opposing ballpark, while breaking The Record. An example more on point could hardly have existed. And, yet, Andy couldn't simply acknowledge that his challenge had been met. Instead, he kind of half-heartedly acknowledged it, and then proceeded to unfairly characterize the reaction as "mixed," and then went on to top it all off by talking about it being "hard to prove one way or the other" how many Giants fans were there.

His unwritten rules evolved, his standard of proof proved unattainable. How in the hell am I going to prove how many "Giants fans" were there? Any fair minded person would accept that fans in an opposing ballpark 500 miles away would qualify as "opposing fans."

As expected ...the nonviability of an unapologetic McGwire is becoming clearer and clearer.

But Selig and McGwire are joined at the hip. If Selig cuts off and tosses McGwire overboard, he implicates himself since the record shows he essentially supplied the roids through a grotesque, bizarre , overreaching, sustained non-action on the issue.

And there's the rabid, either proroid or oblivious to roids or happily accepting of McGwire's 2 cent apology, local fanbase backing McGwire, which has to give the neocs pause.

But, this is Selig, and McGwire is constitutionally unable to come clean.

So odds are Selig will saw the McGwire appendage off before the start of the regular season.

I still don't understand why people feel it's appropriate to boo at ballparks

you've never seen andruw jones in a dodger uniform.

albert pujols gets/got louder boos than barry lamar ever dreamed of.

Lisa, how can anyone "hate" Albert Pujols? I have to assume you're only talking about the kind of rivalry type of "hate" that stems from things like certain home runs in certain playoff games, but then I don't follow the National League much and I've heard they've got some strange fans over there.

we're talking about texans here. sorry lisa, for class you're the exception that proves the rule, and yes i've been to games in houston.

When the Red Sox are in town, I make a point of booing Kevin Youkilis.
I mean, I'd do the Youuuuuuuk thing if he was on MY team.
But because he is on the other team, I boo him. Like, I spell it, and everything. So it's clear I'm booing. And not Youk-ing.

before anybody jumps on me i want to apologize for my crack about texans. i know some pretty nice people from texas besides lisa. i'm really sorry about that, i run my mouth too much. one bad experience at minute maid park is not a good barometer.

Prince, you sure know a hell of a lot about me for someone who's made fewer than 200 comments.

He's perceptive, because it got it exactly right. (Take it from someone with 14000 comments.) You love making a claim and then moving goalposts, and then throwing in more and more caveats until your claim is so narrow that it doesn't say anything at all.

Well, I do imagine that anyone who's followed you through your 14,000 comments on everything from Taxation Slavery to Steroid McCarthyism and still can keep a straight face while reading them, probably is going to agree with whatever you say about your White Whale II.

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And the exchange here is a claaaaassic example of what you and Prince are saying. Andy's challenge was "Show me one example of when a known juicer has ever been cheered by opposing fans."

Bonds is seen by the public as The Ultimate Juicer. Bonds was cheered by fans in an opposing ballpark, while breaking The Record. An example more on point could hardly have existed. And, yet, Andy couldn't simply acknowledge that his challenge was met. Instead, he kind of half-heartedly acknowledged it, and then proceeded to unfairly characterize the reaction as "mixed," and then went on to top it off by talking about it being "hard to prove one way or the other" how many Giants fans were there.

His unwritten rules evolved, his standard of proof proved unattainable. How in the hell am I going to prove how many "Giants fans" were there? Any fair minded person would accept that fans in an opposing ballpark 500 miles away would qualify as "opposing fans."

Not too surprising that Tweedledee echoes Tweedledum on anything that remotely involves steroids or White Whales, but this is a bit much. I threw out a challenge (#91), you answered it (#92), I acknowledged your answer with a minor qualification (#93), you added more detail (#94), and I acknowledged your superior memory on the subject at hand---my challenge and your response (#95). I'm not demanding that you "prove" anything else. I issued a challenge and you answered it. What more do you want? The two and the break?

When the Red Sox are in town, I make a point of booing Kevin Youkilis.
I mean, I'd do the Youuuuuuuk thing if he was on MY team.
But because he is on the other team, I boo him.

I'm a Red Sox fan but was forced to root against them in the 2008 ALCS since I had a Vegas ticket that was going to pay out $20K if Tampa Bay won.

I learned that when you root against the Red Sox, Kevin Youkilis, with his mannerisms, becomes really, really annoying. Papelbon too.

As expected ...the nonviability of an unapologetic McGwire is becoming clearer and clearer.

I don't think that word means what you think it means.

But Selig and McGwire are joined at the hip. If Selig cuts off and tosses McGwire overboard, he implicates himself since the record shows he essentially supplied the roids through a grotesque, bizarre , overreaching, sustained non-action on the issue.

Those words don't mean what you think they mean either. And Mark McGwire does not work for Bud Selig. Bud Selig has nothing to do with Mark McGwire's employment.

Selig hasn't disciplined any players named in the Mitchell Report because he has no standing. The players, like McGwire, and Selig were essentially engaged in an internalized conspiracy. Bond's problem was he became known as a roider after the roids issue blew up and became known, so became the perfect candidate to be jettisoned.

Selig is inextricably bound to McGwire in a way that has nothing to do with employer-employee, but, being Selig, he'll fid a way to cut McGwire loose.

And an apology means taking reponsibility, not words.