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Tuesday, January 04, 2011

ESPN: Hall passes for Alomar, Blyleven

The ESPN HOF Ballots…finally! (even if they’re all screwy looking)

ESPN.com asked 18 of ESPN’s Hall of Fame voters to submit their ballots for the Class of 2011, which will be announced Wednesday at 2 p.m. ET.

To be elected, players must receive at least 75 percent of the Baseball Writers’ Association of America vote. According to ESPN’s voters, Roberto Alomar and Bert Blyleven should join Veterans Committee inductee Pat Gillick in the Hall of Fame’s Class of 2011.


Jack Morris 10 (55.6)
• VOTES FOR MORRIS:
Caple; Crasnick; Gomez; Kurkjian; O’Connor; Olney; Rubin; Stanton; Smith; Stark

Jeff Bagwell 8 (44.4)
• VOTES FOR BAGWELL:
Caple; Crasnick; Edes; Kurkjian; Olney; Roberts; Rubin; Stark

B.J. Surhoff 1 (5.6)
• VOTES FOR SURHOFF:
Stanton

 

Repoz Posted: January 04, 2011 at 07:34 PM | 95 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hall of fame, history, sabermetrics, steroids

Reader Comments and Retorts

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   1. Rich Lederer Posted: January 04, 2011 at 07:53 PM (#3723225)
Barry Stanton voted for B.J. Surhoff but not Bert Blyleven. Go figure!
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 04, 2011 at 07:56 PM (#3723228)
Weird, misleading headline. I thought they were announcing who had made the Hall, and were saying that the HOF had passed over Alomar and Blyleven.

Hey, editor, how bout being informative in the headline rather than cute?

Also: Its kinda funny the caps on the pics of the HOFers. I don't expect Tim Raines, for example to go into Cooperstown with an A's hat. In fact, I had completely forgotten he ever played for them.

Also: Stanton's ballot is hilarious - Jack Morris, Tino Martinez, Don Mattingly and BJ Surhoff. That's it. Wow.
   3. jcnyc Posted: January 04, 2011 at 07:57 PM (#3723229)
in fact, Stanton's ballot seems to have been Morris, Surhoff, Mattingly, Tino Martinez, Edgar Martinez.

Wow.
   4. Der Komminsk-sar Posted: January 04, 2011 at 07:57 PM (#3723230)
Kevin Brown, no votes.
   5. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: January 04, 2011 at 07:59 PM (#3723236)
From the ballot tracker thread:

196. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2011 at 01:41 PM (#3723209)
Out of 18 ESPN writers' ballots:

17 Alomar
14 Blyleven
10 Larkin
10 Morris
9 Smith
8 Bagwell
8 Raines
8 Edgar
7 McGwire
4 Palmeiro
4 Trammell
2 McGriff
1 Tino Martinez
1 Mattingly
1 Murphy
1 Parker
1 BJ Surhoff
1 Walker
   6. andrewberg Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:01 PM (#3723241)
Yeah, I read the headline then immediately emailed it to a group of people, followed by an instant retraction.
   7. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:04 PM (#3723245)
I don't even begin to understand the Barry Stanton Ballot. Did he fill it in randomly? Did he not watch baseball games during the 1980s or 1990s? Is he perhaps an extra-terrestrial hired by ESPN for his other-worldly editing skills, who remains confused by our primitive Earth games?
   8. Lassus Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:10 PM (#3723257)
How is Stanton even allowed to vote?

That's just.... horrendous.
   9. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:11 PM (#3723258)
Stanton appears to be voting for guys who he believes had no connection with PEDs. It's the only thing that makes any degree of sense.
   10. Paul The Paranoid Android Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:11 PM (#3723260)
And Wrong Hole Buster is the only Morris-no-Blyleven voter.
   11. Norcan Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:16 PM (#3723266)
BJ Surhoff got the same number of votes as Larry Walker? Lsrry Walker only got one vote? That's crazy. If this voter snapshot is indicative of the whole, could Walker actually be in danger of getting bounced from the ballot? Wow.

I think Stanton decided to only vote for guys whose last names started with M but since McGwire is off-limits, he had to sub in Surhoff just to make it interesting.
   12. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:16 PM (#3723268)
Stanton appears to be voting for guys who he believes had no connection with PEDs. It's the only thing that makes any degree of sense.
He thinks Tino Martinez is free and clear from roids, but Roberto Alomar and Barry Larkin are tainted?

I appreciate that you're trying to find the sense in this, it would help if it could be found. My new theory is that Barry Stanton is an android sent from the future to destroy our last scraps of faith in humanity, softening us up for the coming cyborg dystopia.
   13. DA Baracus Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:20 PM (#3723273)
I thought they were announcing who had made the Hall, and were saying that the HOF had passed over Alomar and Blyleven.


It's a play on "hall passes" back when there were hall monitors in school. The WWL is so hip.
   14. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:25 PM (#3723281)
My only theory is that Barry Stanton is really former LOOGY Mike Stanton, who is trying to water down HOF criteria so greatly as to make his own candidacy viable.
   15. Jick Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:26 PM (#3723284)
Maybe he gives extra points for being the #1 pick in the draft.
   16. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:28 PM (#3723286)
Stanton's vote jumped at me too. It stuck out first as the one dissenter on Alomar but then just gets...weird. It's the Tino and Surhoff votes that I don't get. I can see a guy voting for one of them on an "he was always nice to me so I'll toss him a vote" kind of way but to vote for both is puzzling. Even if you assume he's only voting for "clean" players does that mean he thinks Trammell was juiced but not Surhoff? Dale Murphy was better than Surhoff or Tino, are we really thinking Dale Friggen' Murphy was juiced?
   17. Guapo Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:28 PM (#3723290)
Never having heard of Barry Stanton, I tried to find some articles he had written about baseball. Apparently he wrote for the Westchester Journal News for 25 years, and then resigned in November 2002 after plagiarizing a Joe Posnanski article.
   18. zack Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:32 PM (#3723297)
On the positive side, Jim Caple's ballot is pretty good. Actually used the full ten, and mostly used it wisely. Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Bagwell, Raines, Martinez, McGwire, Trammell, plus Mcgriff and Morris. Edes is by far the most sabermetric (Alomar, Blyleven, Larkin, Bagwell, Raines, Bagwell, Raines, Martinez, Trammell, only Smith instead of Walker away from the saber-10). Crasnick and Gomez were pretty good as well.

Also, seven voters actually managed to vote for all the no-doubters (Bagwell, Larkin, Alomar, Blyleven). McGwire and Walker are also no-doubters, but I can at least understand not voting for them for now. Walker is going to have to be reinstated when people get some perspective about Coors.
   19. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#3723298)
Stanton's vote jumped at me too. It stuck out first as the one dissenter on Alomar but then just gets...weird. It's the Tino and Surhoff votes that I don't get. I can see a guy voting for one of them on an "he was always nice to me so I'll toss him a vote" kind of way but to vote for both is puzzling. Even if you assume he's only voting for "clean" players does that mean he thinks Trammell was juiced but not Surhoff? Dale Murphy was better than Surhoff or Tino, are we really thinking Dale Friggen' Murphy was juiced?


As I mentioned on the other thread and Guapo notes here, Stanton wrote for years for the Journal News in Westchester, which is where Surhoff grew up. It's possible the Surhoff vote is simply a bone thrown to a local kid he covered. It doesn't explain the atrociousness of the rest of the ballot, nor is it defensible when you ignore all of the most qualified candidates and only vote for unqualified ones (Edgar being the possible exception).
   20. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:36 PM (#3723303)
Barry Stanton is a known plagiarist. This gets better and better.
   21. cardsfanboy Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:38 PM (#3723307)
McGwire and Walker are also no-doubters, but I can at least understand not voting for them for now. Walker is going to have to be reinstated when people get some perspective about Coors.


I understand McGwire as a no doubter, find it weird to call Walker a no doubter, his lack of full seasons alone severly damages his candidacy.

I feel more confident than ever that Brown is going to miss out on 5% and get screwed, his case does really deserve more time to hash it out.
   22. Guapo Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:39 PM (#3723310)
I really think ESPN.com has an obligation to provide some followup reporting on Stanton's ballot.
   23. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:44 PM (#3723316)
Barry Stanton is a known plagiarist.


Funny. This would have been a perfectly good time to plagiarize Joe Poz, rather than thinking on his own.
   24. Daunte Vicknabbit! Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:51 PM (#3723320)
Tino Martinez FELT like a Hall of Famer. Did that choke artist Kevin Brown, who singlehandedly drove up salaries and robber poor George Stieinbrenner blind, feel like a Hall guy? He didn't even have the most wins in baseball for a 5 year period, let alone 10!
   25. Dandy Little Glove Man Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:52 PM (#3723321)
I think I can explain the Stanton ballot. Since he covered local sports in Westchester, his only connection to baseball consisted of writing about local prep players and following the Yankees, who are the team of choice for nearly everyone is Westchester. Therefore, he voted for Surhoff (local prep player), Mattingly and Tino (Yankee heroes), and Edgar (Yankee killer). He didn't vote for Raines because Raines was mediocre in his late-career stint with the Yankees. Kevin Brown similarly didn't resemble a Hall of Famer on the Yankees. Every NL player was a complete unknown and therefore out of the running. Of the remaining AL guys, he probably eliminated the ones with steroid connections and the ones who weren't famous enough to register as Hall of Famers in his casual baseball fandom. That left Morris as the fifth and final pick.

Jack Morris received more votes than Jeff Bagwell, Larry Walker, and Kevin Brown combined.
   26. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:55 PM (#3723323)
That left Morris as the fifth and final pick.


Who had Stanton's wife and children bound and blindfolded in an abandoned warehouse until after the HoF election.
   27. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 04, 2011 at 08:59 PM (#3723330)
Never having heard of Barry Stanton, I tried to find some articles he had written about baseball. Apparently he wrote for the Westchester Journal News for 25 years, and then resigned in November 2002 after plagiarizing a Joe Posnanski article.

I remember reading Stanton in the Journal News growing up, back when it was the Daily Item. For what it's worth, Surhoff is a local Westchester product, having gone to Rye High School, and Stanton probably covered him when he was in high school. I am guessing that is the reason for the vote.

Edit: Coke to Dandy Little Glove Man
   28. rconn23 Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#3723337)
I'm sorry, but who in the blue f#*k is Barry Stanton?

I've honestly never heard of the guy. Seeing his ballot, I'm now sorry I have.

Cokes to 25 and 27.
   29. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#3723338)
I will add that I don't have a problem with Bagwell's level of support here -- it's a perfectly cromulent level of first ballot support for a guy who will most likely make it in a few years.

The fact that Brown is in danger of falling off the ballot entirely is disturbing though.
   30. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:03 PM (#3723339)
Edit: Coke to Dandy Little Glove Man


Hey, where's mine?

BTW, where in Westchester are you from Dave?
   31. shock Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:05 PM (#3723341)
Is Barry Stanton yest?
   32. RJ in TO Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:10 PM (#3723343)
Is Barry Stanton yest?

yest would have voted for Raines, based on the counting stats.
   33. rconn23 Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:12 PM (#3723346)
A few things stick out from these ballots...

I'm shocked Olney doesn't have Larkin on his ballot. I like to give Olney some credit for being one of the better baseball analysts and reporters. How he can't have one of the top 10 or 12 shortstops in baseball history on his ballot is vexing to say the least. I would expect better from him.

One vote for Larry Walker? Not saying he should be in, but one vote? That's just as many as the esteemed Mr. Surhoff received.

And I'm beginning to lose hope that Raines will ever get in. I hope I'm wrong.
   34. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:15 PM (#3723349)
Barry Stanton is a known plagiarist. This gets better and better.
Ah. So we have a new theory to replace those from #9, 11, and 14: he was trying to insulate himself from charges of plagiarism in voting, by putting together a ballot that we could be absolutely certain he didn't copy from anybody else.
   35. tshipman Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:17 PM (#3723350)
I'm shocked Olney doesn't have Larkin on his ballot. I like to give Olney some credit for being one of the better baseball analysts and reporters.


I found your answer for why you're disappointed. Remember Productive Outs?
   36. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:31 PM (#3723359)
Hey, where's mine?

BTW, where in Westchester are you from Dave?


Fine, you can have the one I received in 28.

I grew up in Westchester but I haven't lived there in over a decade.
   37. Cabbage Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:34 PM (#3723364)
I found your answer for why you're disappointed. Remember Productive Outs?

He could have also meant that Olney is good compared to the very low baseline. The reporter's version of "He one of the best-hitting backup catchers in the game!"
   38. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:39 PM (#3723369)
My thoughts on Barry Stanton's ballot

I note SoSHially unacceptable in the blurb & mention Matt Clement of Alexandria in the comments section for pointing out Stanton's Surhoff connection and plagiarism charge respectfully. (SoSH did it in the ballot tally thread, not this one).
   39. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:46 PM (#3723374)
I think I can explain the Stanton ballot. Since he covered local sports in Westchester, his only connection to baseball consisted of writing about local prep players and following the Yankees, who are the team of choice for nearly everyone is Westchester. Therefore, he voted for Surhoff (local prep player), Mattingly and Tino (Yankee heroes), and Edgar (Yankee killer). He didn't vote for Raines because Raines was mediocre in his late-career stint with the Yankees. Kevin Brown similarly didn't resemble a Hall of Famer on the Yankees. Every NL player was a complete unknown and therefore out of the running. Of the remaining AL guys, he probably eliminated the ones with steroid connections and the ones who weren't famous enough to register as Hall of Famers in his casual baseball fandom. That left Morris as the fifth and final pick.
I think this is the best explanation. You have a local boy, two Yankees, a Yankee Killer, and Morris. Morris isn't particularly explicable, but 4 out of 5 explained is probably as well as any theory can do with the Barry Stanton Ballot. (This also explains the Alomar snub - sucked in New York.)

The thing that makes this theory work so well is the way it dovetails with the plagiarism offense. In both cases, Stanton took his job and responsibilities entirely unseriously, and opted for doing as little work or thought as possible.
   40. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 04, 2011 at 09:49 PM (#3723376)
I think I can explain the Stanton ballot. Since he covered local sports in Westchester, his only connection to baseball consisted of writing about local prep players and following the Yankees, who are the team of choice for nearly everyone is Westchester. Therefore, he voted for Surhoff (local prep player), Mattingly and Tino (Yankee heroes), and Edgar (Yankee killer). He didn't vote for Raines because Raines was mediocre in his late-career stint with the Yankees. Kevin Brown similarly didn't resemble a Hall of Famer on the Yankees. Every NL player was a complete unknown and therefore out of the running. Of the remaining AL guys, he probably eliminated the ones with steroid connections and the ones who weren't famous enough to register as Hall of Famers in his casual baseball fandom. That left Morris as the fifth and final pick.

Why Morris and not Trammell? I guess he gave himself a maximum of 5.

From this reasoning we can extrapolate Barry Stanton's previous HoF ballots as well.

2010: Jack Morris, Don Mattingly, Pat Hentgen. Even though the Yankees smacked Hentgen around his whole career, the guy was a winner.
2009: Rickey Henderson, Jack Morris, Tommy John, David Cone
2008: Goose Gossage, Jim Rice, Jack Morris, Don Mattingly, Chuck Knoblauch
2007: Cal Ripken Jr., Jim Rice, Don Mattingly, Paul O'Neill, Jay Buhner
2006: Jim Rice, Goose Gossage, Jack Morris, Tommy John, Don Mattingly
2005: Wade Boggs, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Jim Abbott, Chili Davis
   41. cardsfanboy Posted: January 04, 2011 at 10:06 PM (#3723391)
I like to give Olney some credit for being one of the better baseball analysts and reporters.


really? I have Olney as quite possibly the stupidest baseball analyst on the planet. I think I prefer Chass as an analyst over Olney. His ballot I found to be surprising good for a guy who I have zero respect for as an analyst. (Alomar, Morris, Bagwell, Raines, McGwire and Palmeiro) of course any ballot with Morris and no Blyleven is absolute proof that he can't be called an analyst.

of course he should have liked Larkin and his 41% productive out percentage(vs a league average of 34%)
   42. Alex_Lewis Posted: January 04, 2011 at 10:25 PM (#3723403)
Why would a plagiarist be allowed to keep his HOF ballot? Isn't there a deserving young buck out there? Is this similar to the system that allows incompetent umpires to remain employed?
   43. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 04, 2011 at 10:32 PM (#3723409)

From this reasoning we can extrapolate Barry Stanton's previous HoF ballots as well.

2010: Jack Morris, Don Mattingly, Pat Hentgen. Even though the Yankees smacked Hentgen around his whole career, the guy was a winner.
2009: Rickey Henderson, Jack Morris, Tommy John, David Cone
2008: Goose Gossage, Jim Rice, Jack Morris, Don Mattingly, Chuck Knoblauch
2007: Cal Ripken Jr., Jim Rice, Don Mattingly, Paul O'Neill, Jay Buhner
2006: Jim Rice, Goose Gossage, Jack Morris, Tommy John, Don Mattingly
2005: Wade Boggs, Tommy John, Don Mattingly, Jim Abbott, Chili Davis


2012: Bernie Williams, Jeff Nelson, Jack Morris
2013: Curt Schilling, David Wells, Jack Morris
   44. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 04, 2011 at 10:47 PM (#3723417)
Why would a plagiarist be allowed to keep his HOF ballot?

I was wondering what you have to do get your BBWA card taken away. Maybe Stanton is trying to find out.
   45. Guapo Posted: January 04, 2011 at 10:50 PM (#3723419)
Isn't there a deserving young buck out there?


*takes off shirt*

Consider this an opportunity for dialogue and education.
   46. Adam B. Posted: January 04, 2011 at 10:55 PM (#3723424)
It gets worse: he didn't vote for Rickey Henderson two years ago. Via the Mike & Mike Transcript (1-13-09), editing out the timestamps and adding some capitalization:
... And Mike and I earlier said we could not understand any rationale for not voting Rickey Henderson into the Hall of fame and we think anyone who did so should have their vote taken away. Well, Liam got a hold of Barry Stanton and he wrote back the following.

He wrote "I watched him play. I covered his career in New York Yankees and Mets and saw him in Toronto, et cetera and I saw him dog too many games. This is the first time in 13 years that I made a protest vote. I decided not to vote for Rickey as a penalty of that doggieness. I would have voted next year because I knew I wouldn't have a chance because I knew he was going in the first try."
   47. Adam B. Posted: January 04, 2011 at 10:58 PM (#3723428)
Stanton, 1-12-2010 ESPN chat:
With my vote, it's NEVER all about the numbers. Some of it has to be on HOW they played (and that includes whether they cheated or not).
I won't vote for any guy that I personally believe cheated (BTW, that would have included Gaylor Perry).
If I do vote for someone, and find out later he cheated, I'll feel bad.
but I won't vote someone in because "everybody was doing it."
That didn't work with my dad, and it won't work with me
   48. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:08 PM (#3723437)
Cheating in baseball, not alright.

Stealing someone else's work, perfectly fine.
   49. shock Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:11 PM (#3723440)
hat didn't work with my dad, and it won't work with me


Didn't work with your editor either, I bet.

Stanton's standard appears to be that if you were really good, then you probably cheated.
   50. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:12 PM (#3723442)
Stanton is dumber than ten doggienesses.
   51. Solly Hemus Use Rogaine Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:13 PM (#3723444)
Stanton appears to be voting for guys who he believes had no connection with PEDs. It's the only thing that makes any degree of sense.


Agree.

Barry Stanton is a known plagiarist. This gets better and better.


Agree again.

Barry Stanton acting out Lord Jim?
   52. Baldrick Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:16 PM (#3723445)
He votes against Rickey because of doggieness. Can we presume he votes for Morris because of aceishness?
   53. Solly Hemus Use Rogaine Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:19 PM (#3723450)
38. I don't know Dag Nabbit from a hole in the wall Posted: January 04, 2011 at 03:39 PM (#3723369)
My thoughts on Barry Stanton's ballot


Chris,

You probably shouldn't have written in your column that Stanton lost jobs (plural) in your column. It was just one job. He may have plagiarized more than once but only lost one job over it. At least as far as I know. If you're going to publicly humiliate someone, please be fair about it. I'm not saying you're wrong in doing what you're doing, just that you have to keep the facts straight if you go public.
   54. They paved Misirlou, put up a parking lot Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:20 PM (#3723451)
I know the HOF doesn't give a rip, but we should make it our mission to shame them (or the BBWAA) to have this guys voting privileges taken away. Get some of our friends in the media to publish this jackwagon's blase attitude toward a duty that many cherish and never get the chance.
   55. Baseballs Most Beloved Figure Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:27 PM (#3723455)
Barry Stanton, news editor, ESPN. Is this just an inflated title for staff writer or does he actually decide what goes on ESPN.com and the ESPN network.
   56. AJMcCringleberry Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:29 PM (#3723456)
How does someone go from plagiarizing at the Journal News of Westchester to getting a job at ESPN?
   57. Tom Nawrocki Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:30 PM (#3723458)
He votes against Rickey because of doggieness.


Should we assume that he also voted against Tony Perez?
   58. shock Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:33 PM (#3723460)
He votes against Rickey because of doggieness.


Hence the lack of a vote for Fred McGriff.
   59. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:40 PM (#3723463)
What do I love most about this junky vote? And the others that aspire to its stupidity? And the series of shoddy columns that accompany many of the votes? What I love is that this is how the BBWAA is acting when the ballot is relatively manageable and uncomplicated. Waiting for 2013-14-15 is like camping out on the sidewalk for a blockbuster disaster movie. I can't wait!
   60. Dag Nabbit is part of the zombie horde Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:41 PM (#3723465)
You probably shouldn't have written in your column that Stanton lost jobs (plural) in your column. It was just one job. He may have plagiarized more than once but only lost one job over it.

It was a typo. I just noted in the comments section that it should be singular job, not plural jobs.

Thanks for the correction.
   61. Robinson Cano Plate Like Home Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:45 PM (#3723468)
I decided not to vote for Rickey as a penalty of that doggieness.

The person responsible for that sentence is an editor.
   62. Adam B. Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:51 PM (#3723474)
The person responsible for that sentence is an editor.
Well, wait: this is a typed transcript (by whom? I don't know) of a radio broadcast. I don't hold doggie/dogged against Stanton himself.
   63. Guapo Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:53 PM (#3723475)
Here is the column that Stanton plagiarized. In his defense, it's an excellent column.
   64. villageidiom Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:54 PM (#3723477)
How does someone go from plagiarizing at the Journal News of Westchester to getting a job at ESPN?
Mike Lupica once called Stanton his "best friend". And Stanton had appeared on ESPN (at least on Outside The Lines, but given the Lupica connection I assume he got on The Sports Reporters at some point) the year prior to being caught plagiarizing.
   65. Walt Davis Posted: January 04, 2011 at 11:59 PM (#3723479)
9 votes for Lee Smith, 8 for Bagwell. Stanton, Bryant and Pascarelli appear to be the only ones who voted for neither.

And perhaps this gives us a clue as to who knows that they're doing and who doesn't. Only two voters voted for both -- Edes and Roberts.

Caple, Crasnick, Kurkjian, Olney, Rubin and Stark voted Bagwell. I think all those guys still cover baseball.

Gomez, Jackson, Knisley, O'Connor, Parker, Saxon and Smith voted Smith. Other than Gomez, I'm not familiar with any of those bylines.

Pascarelli must be one special researcher! His ballot is Alomar and Blyleven. There's a man who understands his baseball.

(A web search reveals that Gomez was a beat writer for the A's in the early 90s; Pascarelli for the Phils in the mid-80s; can't find any info on Roberts.)

EDIT: and I'll give Stanton credit. I didn't think we'd see a ballot worse than Nightengale's Alomar, Smith, Morris but Stanton's ballot blows that one out of the water.

EDIT2: and is it really true that ESPN gave these guys no space to explain their votes? Not even a tiny quote for each player even if only from one writer?
   66. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: January 05, 2011 at 12:05 AM (#3723483)
Claire Smith was also a writer for the Phils in the mid-80s. She left the Philadelphia Inquirer a few years ago after about 25 years there. I thought she was retired.
   67. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: January 05, 2011 at 12:10 AM (#3723485)
Brendan Roberts is the ESPN fantasy baseball guy. Before that he covered fantasy baseball for The Sporting News. Link
   68. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: January 05, 2011 at 12:41 AM (#3723503)
Pascarelli must be one special researcher! His ballot is Alomar and Blyleven. There's a man who understands his baseball.


Is that supposed to be snark? My sarcasm detector needs new batteries... For bad ballot ranking on a scale of 1-10 (with 10 being Stanton), this ranks about minus 7. There's nothing wrong with having a high in/out line.

Consider this an opportunity for dialogue and education,

FPH
   69. Bob Tufts Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:06 AM (#3723517)
Stanton must have gone to Columbia Journalism School.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/12/01/nyregion/01columbia.html
   70. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:08 AM (#3723518)
2007: Cal Ripken Jr., Jim Rice, Don Mattingly, Paul O'Neill, Jay Buhner


How could the Yankees trade Jay Buhner?
   71. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:20 AM (#3723526)
But my people at the Impossible Missions Force kept saying "Mr. Phelps, Mr. Phelps, Mr. Phelps."
   72. willcarrolldoesnotsuk Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:21 AM (#3723527)
Is there perhaps some other BJ Surhoff with whom I am not familiar?
   73. Hugh Jorgan Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:27 AM (#3723532)
Ah I see it now, Stanton has simply eliminated the 9 of the 10 best players on the ballot, chose Edgar, THEN randomly chose some other guys who were pretty good at some stage.

This is a fool proof system and I'm thinking of changing my whole personal and business philosophy to Stanton's new standard of "eliminate the best and then randomly go for above average...Yeah!"
   74. cardsfanboy Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:32 AM (#3723534)
I was looking for an article on the plagiarism scandal, and instead I found a blog posting in which a guy was really upset about the BJ Surhoff vote. I do not get people being upset by this, if Stanton would have voted for 10 people and left someone off to put Surhoff on the ballot, then I would understand the dismay. But a courtesy vote to a player is not a crime against the integrity of the hall of fame when you aren't maxing out your ballot. (be upset about his ballot for other reasons, but courtesy votes should never be a big deal)
   75. shock Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:44 AM (#3723543)
There's nothing wrong with having a high in/out line.


I foyu have a high in/out line, your ballot should be just Bagwell. Maybe Bagwell/Blyleven. Despite the hype, I see little separating Alomar from the Larkin/Trammell/Raines second tier.
   76. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: January 05, 2011 at 01:54 AM (#3723548)
BJ Surhoff actually does better on the HOF Standards metric than Tino Martinez does.
   77. Solly Hemus Use Rogaine Posted: January 05, 2011 at 02:00 AM (#3723552)
I foyu have a high in/out line, your ballot should be just Bagwell.


Not if you think he was juicing and you won't vote for someone you think was juicing.

Personally, discounting drugs, I think Alomar is as close to being a no-brainer as Bagwell is.
   78. cardsfanboy Posted: January 05, 2011 at 02:33 AM (#3723573)

I foyu have a high in/out line, your ballot should be just Bagwell. Maybe Bagwell/Blyleven. Despite the hype, I see little separating Alomar from the Larkin/Trammell/Raines second tier.


I pretty much see Alomar as clearly ahead of the others on that list,
   79. Lemon Curry? Posted: January 05, 2011 at 02:45 AM (#3723579)
EDIT2: and is it really true that ESPN gave these guys no space to explain their votes? Not even a tiny quote for each player even if only from one writer?


Stark
Caple
Stanton
   80. shock Posted: January 05, 2011 at 02:51 AM (#3723583)

I pretty much see Alomar as clearly ahead of the others on that list,


At the least I see Alomar and Larkin as a toss-up. You would have to give Alomar Ozzie-level defense to move him way ahead, I think.
   81. cardsfanboy Posted: January 05, 2011 at 03:15 AM (#3723596)
At the least I see Alomar and Larkin as a toss-up. You would have to give Alomar Ozzie-level defense to move him way ahead, I think.


number of seasons over 140 games, Alomar 15(13 plus two labor related), Larkin 9(7 plus two labor related) ALomar higher peak and longer career. I think of Larkin as solidly in, but Alomar is still better. (when healthy, I'm not sure there are many people during his time who was better than Larkin)
   82. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 05, 2011 at 03:46 AM (#3723612)
But neither one of them could carry B.J. Surhoff's jock.
   83. Walt Davis Posted: January 05, 2011 at 08:55 AM (#3723768)
number of seasons over 140 games, Alomar 15(13 plus two labor related), Larkin 9(7 plus two labor related)

Have we always cared about this or only because Larkin and Walker are on the ballot? Career length sure, consecutive games streaks sure, they've always mattered to voters. And while I understand there's in-season durability value, Alomar was also only there for (parts of) 17 seasons while Larkin was still providing value for parts of 19 seasons.

I used to hold this against Larkin too but decided it's silly. 9000 PA is 9000 PA, doesn't matter a lot how many seasons it took.

ALomar higher peak and longer career.

Longer career for sure, by 1400 PA. Alas, over those last 1400 PA, Alomar was replacement level (-.2 actually) so zero added value. Not sure what you're using for peak for these guys. For Alomar I grabbed ages 28-34 and 32.7 WAR; for Larkin ages 27-33 and 32.7 WAR. Larkin pulled his off in 600 fewer PAs.

In their first roughly 3400 PAs (it works out), Larkin is ahead by about 8 WAR in a smidgen more PAs. By the time we get to about 6500 PAs (Larkin with about 300 more PAs in this comparison), Larkin is ahead by nearly 20. By the time we get to 9000 PA though, Larkin is only ahead by 6. Larkin was a bit above-average (10 WAR over his last 2500 PA) but this is Alomar's peak (24 WAR over ages 30-33). Alomar didn't close that gap.

Now Chone might be under-rating Alomar's defense ... putting him +30 instead of -30 (not exactly outrageous) pulls him even with Larkin in career WAR. FYI, Chone only rates Larkin as +27 but the WAR difference then is all defense. We can call it a draw if you want. :-)
   84. Jick Posted: January 05, 2011 at 07:33 PM (#3724097)
I started to post this in the ballot gathering thread, but here might make more sense. ESPN's having a live chat with most of their Hall of Fame voters. Here's what Stanton has to say for himself...well, what David Kull has to say for him, since Stanton himself is having computer difficulties:

http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/hof11/news/story?id=5988529 , starting at 1:30:

After that game, I told BJ I thought that someday, I'd be watching him in the major leagues. For the next few years, I watched BJ become a local star at Rye HS, covering his games occasionally. And I remember telling him then that someday, I'd be voting for him for the Hall of Fame. Surhoff, went on to a career at UNC, became the No. 1 pick of the draft, played on our first Olympic baseball team. He had a very good (though not great) career for 18 years in MLB. And then there he was on my ballot (I've been a BBWAA member since 1985 and have had a Hall of Fame vote since '95). So I remembered that promise (though I honestly can't say if BJ does) and checked the box.
   85. Jick Posted: January 05, 2011 at 07:44 PM (#3724110)
Stanton on Martinez:
I chose Tino because he was at the heart of a 4-time world championship team.
   86. Guapo Posted: January 05, 2011 at 07:47 PM (#3724116)
The giant holes in Roberto Alomar, Barry Larkin and Bert Blyleven's Hall of Fame cases: Their failure to attend Rye High School.
   87. Jick Posted: January 05, 2011 at 07:50 PM (#3724120)
For Alomar all he says is that he thought about changing his mind this year, ultimately decided not to, and isn't too put out by the fact that he'll get in without his vote.
   88. bunyon Posted: January 05, 2011 at 08:03 PM (#3724141)
Alomar and Blyleven.
   89. Cabbage Posted: January 05, 2011 at 08:21 PM (#3724158)
BBWAA site says TWO votes for Surhoff!

"B.J. Surhoff 2 0.3%"
   90. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: January 05, 2011 at 08:33 PM (#3724167)
Now, let's get to work on Tim Raines.
   91. Srul Itza Posted: January 05, 2011 at 08:48 PM (#3724171)
Changes in raw vote numbers:

Roberto Alomar...............+126
Bert Blyleven....................+63
Barry Larkin....................+83
Jack Morris....................+29
Lee Smith.........................+8
Tim Raines.......................+54
Edgar Martinez....................-4
Alan Trammell....................+20
Mark McGwire....................-13
Fred McGriff....................-12
Dave Parker.........................+7
Don Mattingly....................-8
Dale Murphy....................10
Harold Baines....................-5
   92. Srul Itza Posted: January 05, 2011 at 08:49 PM (#3724173)
Changes in raw vote numbers:

Roberto Alomar...............+126
Bert Blyleven....................+63
Barry Larkin....................+83
Tim Raines.......................+54
Jack Morris....................+29
Alan Trammell....................+20
Dale Murphy....................+10
Lee Smith.........................+8
Dave Parker.........................+7
Edgar Martinez....................-4
Harold Baines....................-5
Don Mattingly....................-8
Fred McGriff....................-12
Mark McGwire....................-13


Don Mattingly....................-8
Dale Murphy....................10
Harold Baines....................-5
   93. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: January 05, 2011 at 08:52 PM (#3724178)
Congrats to Alomar and Blyleven. Both deserving candidates.
   94. My Grate Friend Peason's pants are rankled Posted: January 05, 2011 at 09:18 PM (#3724192)
Hey, that headline is, like, psychic, man.
   95. cardsfanboy Posted: January 05, 2011 at 10:45 PM (#3724305)
Have we always cared about this or only because Larkin and Walker are on the ballot? Career length sure, consecutive games streaks sure, they've always mattered to voters. And while I understand there's in-season durability value, Alomar was also only there for (parts of) 17 seasons while Larkin was still providing value for parts of 19 seasons.

I used to hold this against Larkin too but decided it's silly. 9000 PA is 9000 PA, doesn't matter a lot how many seasons it took.


as a group I don't know, but I've always cared about it, it's been one of the knocks I have against Dick Allen. I honestly think that it could be devastating to a team to lose an all star level player for significant chunks of the season. More than just filling in the blanks with replacement level play.

as to the peak comment about the two players, definitely used the wrong word there, I had sorted by top war and used that without relation to consecutive years, so I obviously didn't mean peak.

top 8 war's
Alomar 7.9/7.8/6.4/6.1/5.2/4.9/4.2/3.8
Larkin 7.4/6.2/5.9*/5.8/5.7/5.2/4.8/4.0* (asterisks are the two strike years.-I guess the 5.9 is about 6.9, and the 4.0 is about 5.2 equivalent)

and of course that is with defense taken into account, even if I don't agree with their defensive assesment of Alomar(not saying he was great or anything, but I do find it hard to think he was truly below average)

I just think that Alomar is the slightly more obvious candidate due to health and longevity and somewhat better, best years.

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