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Tuesday, April 10, 2012

ESPN: Marlins Suspend Manager Guillen for 5 Games.

“I feel like I betrayed my Latin community,” Guillen said, according to ESPN’s translation of his comments in Spanish. “I am here to say I am sorry with my heart in my hands and I want to say I’m sorry to all those people who are hurt indirectly or directly.”

“I’m sorry for what I said and for putting people in a position they don’t need to be in. And for all the Cuban families, I’m sorry,” he said, according to ESPN’s translation. “I hope that when I get out of here, they will understand who Ozzie Guillen is. How I feel for them. And how I feel about the Fidel Castro dictatorship. I’m here to face you, person to person. It’s going to be a very difficult time for me.

A Cuban-American advocacy group in Miami, Vigilia Mambisa, has said it would boycott and demonstrate against Guillen until the Marlins fire him.

Dan The Mediocre Posted: April 10, 2012 at 11:15 AM | 987 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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Page 5 of 10 pages  < 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9 10 > 
   401. YR Misses Reggie Bars Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:16 PM (#4104985)
Wearing that is like flying the Confederate flag.


I own a Confederate flag and an old Ole Miss battle flag which has the beloved Colonel Reb superimposed over the stars and bars. I fly one of them pretty much every time I fire up my barbecue smoker, but of course I'm not cowed by the PC thuggery of easily offended folks like David.
   402. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:25 PM (#4104992)
Cute, Sam, but I haven't voted Republican in "every election," or pretty much in any election. I have voted Democratic far more times in my life than Republican. (Indeed, I'm still a registered Democrat from back in those college days when I was young and naive. Though, come to think of it, embarrassingly enough I continued it after college, voting for Clinton in 1996.) I think I've voted three times for Republicans (never for president), and one of those was for mayor because the candidate was my next-door neighbor.


One of the reasons I've yet to hunt you down like an animal is that I can always trust you to be literal minded like this. It's oddly endearing. (You do realize that "you voted R on every election for the last 20 years" is not actually well denied by "nuh uh, I voted for Bill Clinton in the 1990s!", right?)

Back to the point at hand: you want to broad-brush every college sophomore who ever wore a Che t-shirt as morally identical to Pol Pot, but throw your hands up in the air and scream "false equivalency you rogue!" any time anyone notes that your actual voting and rhetorical behavior *in the world* supports and is supported by the most vile of racists and throwbacks across the nation.

Pick or choose, son. You can't have both.
   403. zenbitz Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:30 PM (#4104995)
You know, I have to say that it never occurred to me that Che t-shirts were offensive, but I have to agree they probably are. Although I am not sure where on the spectrum they fall.

I have an old "Hitler World Tour" T-shirt - but I NEVER wear it in public.
I have a FEAR shirt with a Panzer Mk IV or III on it but no one knows what it means, so ...
I have a shirt that I used to wear a lot with a dollar bill with a Bhaphomet instead of a presdent that says "THIS IS YOUR GOD" on the front and E is for Evil on the back. That could offend capitalists AND christians.
I have a couple t shirts with naked boobies on them (One a social distortion shirt and One some kind of Russian "The Deep" movie poster) but I am careful about when and where I wear them.

I wouldn't wear a confederate flag. I would wear a black panther shirt or an ANC shirt or even an Idi Amin shirt.
I would totally wear a Mussolini shirt, or a Lenin shirt, or a Soviet Flag, or an Enver Hoxha shirt. I have read Mao's book on Guerilla Warfare, but I probably would stop at a T-shirt in public. I actually have a Lenin pocket watch I picked up in Amsterdam, but I don't really wear it. I have a KGB hip flask.

I probably would not wear a Pinochet or Batista or Al Qaida or Bin Laden shirt... unless the event was topical or something. Nor would I wear an Israeli flag, but I would wear an Israeli army backpack (if my lap top fit).
   404. zenbitz Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4105001)
I like your cartoon Sam, but DMN is more of a (1,1), (1,3), (6,1), (6,3). Although (6,1) does not make him a racist which is what the cartoon implies.
   405. gef the talking mongoose Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:37 PM (#4105002)
I mourn the loss of the Lenin lapel pin I picked up from some vendor at the New Orleans French Market circa 1989. I presume it went away when my '97 Hyundai did 14 months ago; I used to keep it on the chain of the Mekons "Retreat from Memphis Tour" dog tags I had wrapped around the rear-view mirror.
   406. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4105006)
One of the reasons I've yet to hunt you down like an animal is that I can always trust you to be literal minded like this. It's oddly endearing. (You do realize that "you voted R on every election for the last 20 years" is not actually well denied by "nuh uh, I voted for Bill Clinton in the 1990s!", right?)
I do. I also realize that it is actually well denied by, "Nuh uh, I didn't vote for Republicans in the last 20 years."

Back to the point at hand: you want to broad-brush every college sophomore who ever wore a Che t-shirt as morally identical to Pol Pot, but throw your hands up in the air and scream "false equivalency you rogue!" any time anyone notes that your actual voting and rhetorical behavior *in the world* supports and is supported by the most vile of racists and throwbacks across the nation.
My "actual voting behavior" *in the world* is not Republican. Sorry to keep pointing out that your stereotype of libertarians -- or at least me -- is false.

I was hoping people would try to figure out which 20 boxes I did fit.
   407. gef the talking mongoose Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4105012)
I strenuously object to how "libertarians" comes across as "librarians" when I read too fast.
   408. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4105014)
I like your cartoon Sam, but DMN is more of a (1,1), (1,3), (6,1), (6,3).


David? David has the entire first row maxed out. Totally rolled 20s on row 1. I still maintain he's a good enough fit for 2.2 Definitely in for 3.1 and 3.4, and when as he gets older he will grow completely into the "The Island" at 3.2. I'll assume he's not going to Thailand for sex, though. See how generous I can be?

4.2, 4.3, 4.4, 5.1, 5.3, 6.1 and probably 6.3 all apply as well. But I'll assume he doesn't go to Thailand for sex. See how generous I can be?

I also assume David has never, ever, not once been stoned, fired a weapon, or been anything close to what a reasonable person might describe as "briefly tempting."

Although (6,1) does not make him a racist which is what the cartoon implies.


Here's the thing about racism and David, if I may be so bold. I don't think David's a racist. I don't care that he's not. He consistently holds positions and promotes policies that enable racists and further racist ends. The fact that he does it out of bloody naivete and insular no-enemies-to-my-right partisanship doesn't make a damned bit of difference to me. I care about what happens in the world, not what someone wishes would happen but never does. A drunk driver that kills a family of four on the road can be very, very sad afterwards. He's still responsible for his behavior and the results of that behavior. Same goes for David and his tap dance around the realities of race in the world.
   409. zonk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:51 PM (#4105019)
or a Lenin shirt, or a Soviet Flag, or an Enver Hoxha shirt.


It's actually a bit of fad (soviet era nostalgia) -- they even have a word for it "Ostalgie".... and I highly recommend the film "Good Bye, Lenin!" -- funny and touching.
   410. Misirlou is bad, he's nationwide Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4105021)
I was hoping people would try to figure out which 20 boxes I did fit.


Well, it would be easier to guess which 4 you don't self identify with. You've already given us one. I'd say that you are not a stoner, are not a lefty, and that you don't practice statutory rape.
   411. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:54 PM (#4105023)
I was hoping people would try to figure out which 20 boxes I did fit


I've got you down for 15 up there. You probably, quite foolishly, believe you're "briefly tempting" too. Add it to the list of things you're wrong about. You may have gone to a gun range once too, but I don't count that. You ain't never fired a weapon at a living thing, I'd wager.
   412. gef the talking mongoose Posted: April 12, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4105027)
I highly recommend the film "Good Bye, Lenin!" -- funny and touching.


Ditto.
   413. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 12, 2012 at 02:02 PM (#4105033)
David? David has the entire first row maxed out. Totally rolled 20s on row 1.
My nerd detector just went off.
   414. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 02:04 PM (#4105035)
My nerd detector just went off.


Shut up and roll to hit.
   415. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 02:05 PM (#4105036)
Well, it would be easier to guess which 4 you don't self identify with. You've already given us one. I'd say that you are not a stoner, are not a lefty, and that you don't practice statutory rape.
You are correct on all three points. But, to be fair, the "about 20" was really just quick eyeballing. It's really more like 16; in addition to the four you counted, I think (1,3), (2,1), (4,1), and (5,3) don't fit.

(The others are gross caricatures from a socialist, of course, but identifiable. Don't really read much Heinlein, and in any case the real kooky libertarians read L. Neil Smith anyway.)
   416. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 12, 2012 at 02:14 PM (#4105043)
or a Lenin shirt, or a Soviet Flag, or an Enver Hoxha shirt.

I guess I should confess that I wore out my original "Nuke The Whales" T-shirt that I bought from the American Spectator's old Bloomington office about 35 years ago, and a ginormous Sandinista banner that I got at an anti-Somoza event before the real life Sandanistas got into power and started playing Castro Jr. with the Nicaraguan people.

------------------------------------------

I highly recommend the film "Good Bye, Lenin!" -- funny and touching.

There's never been a more perfect sendup of the Stalinist / Leninist mindset than Judy Davis's acidic portrayal of a woman who gives birth to Stalin's final love child in Children of the Revolution. Even Jane Fonda playing herself in 1971 couldn't have done a better job.
   417. streak of perros Posted: April 12, 2012 at 02:25 PM (#4105054)
Offense is better'n defense.
   418. gef the talking mongoose Posted: April 12, 2012 at 02:28 PM (#4105056)
There's never been a more perfect sendup of the Stalinist / Leninist mindset than Judy Davis's acidic portrayal of a woman who gives birth to Stalin's final love child in Children of the Revolution.


Yep -- another one very much worth digging up.

Taking its name from a (typically) great TRex song didn't hurt, either.
   419. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 02:42 PM (#4105074)
That cartoon is actually quite offensive. Libertarians are woefully misunderstood.
   420. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 02:47 PM (#4105079)
That cartoon is actually quite offensive. Libertarians are woefully misunderstood.


Tell me again about the evil bad socialists in the White House, daddy?
   421. ASmitty Posted: April 12, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4105091)
I have no real beef with the libertarians. I don't agree with a lot of what they say, but that doesn't make them much different than the modern day DNC or RNC.
   422. Greg (U)K Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:02 PM (#4105096)
and I highly recommend the film "Good Bye, Lenin!" -- funny and touching.

I actually just watched Good Bye, Lenin and The Lives of Others in the past few months. Kind of different takes on the same thing, but both great I thought.

ALSO: 4 Months, 3 Weeks and 2 Days was a real trip into a communist society. I have a few Romanian friends who say it's quite a convincing portrayal.
   423. Lassus Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:07 PM (#4105099)
That cartoon is actually quite offensive. Libertarians are woefully misunderstood.

Boo ####### hoo. Try harder, then.
   424. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:09 PM (#4105102)
I could, but you wouldn't listen.........kidding. I just think its sad that people actually believe libertarians are advocates for pedophilia and segregation.
   425. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:16 PM (#4105107)
do you think Che had a legitimate beef with the status quo in Latin America?

There were, and are, many legitimate complaints about the political and economic realities in Latin America and the US role in those realities. Those who are comfortable summarily executing others in the name of "revolutionary justice" aren't really in any position to legitimately raise them. Just the opposite in fact.

Basically, if one is going to dress up as a Marxist revolutionary- shouldn't he, at least, dump the Rolex and give it a decent effort? Based on his behavior, as opposed to his poetry, there isn't any reason to think that if Che had gone to prep school in Wallingford, instead of Rosario, he wouldn't have ended up a proud "imperialist" in his own right.

Other than how pretty he was, he looks to be every bit as petty and brutal as those who he claimed to despise.
   426. The Good Face Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4105108)
Boo ####### hoo. Try harder, then.


Funny stuff coming from somebody who weeps and stamps his feet like a petulant toddler every time somebody makes a truthful observation about the perfidious practices of liberals.
   427. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:17 PM (#4105109)
I never used to consider myself a libertarian, but I certainly do now. Anyone I've spoken to who has actually had an open mind and was capable of rational thought agrees with more libertarian principles than they had realized, but of course anyone who votes for someone simply because they are a Democrat or a Republican doesn't fit those two criteria.

The way I see it, politicians and government are inherently corrupting, so it only makes sense to limit their size and influence. Given my experience as a civil servant, and from observation of what is going on around the world, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise, but I would be open to a reasoned argument to the contrary.
   428. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4105110)
That cartoon is actually quite offensive. Libertarians are woefully misunderstood.

Like Tim Watley, the dentist who converted to Judiasm for the jokes, it offends me more as a comedian.

I do sympathize with the cartoon creator, though. Leftist "political" humor is almost always singularly unfunny and cringe-inducing, leaving as the only mystery whether the problem rests with leftism or leftists. That's a tough obstacle for anyone to overcome.
   429. Tripon Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4105114)


The way I see it, politicians and government are inherently corrupting, so it only makes sense to limit their size and influence. Given my experience as a civil servant, and from observation of what is going on around the world, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise, but I would be open to a reasoned argument to the contrary.


The issue with that view is that any organization are 'inherently' corrupting whether it is a private or public company or organization. Given my experience as a human being on the planet Earth, and from observation of what is going on around the world, I don't see how anyone could acivil servantrgue otherwise, but I would be open to a reasoned argument to the contrary.
   430. Slivers of Maranville (SdeB) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4105118)

The way I see it, politicians and government are inherently corrupting, so it only makes sense to limit their size and influence. Given my experience as a civil servant, and from observation of what is going on around the world, I don't see how anyone could argue otherwise, but I would be open to a reasoned argument to the contrary.


It's power that's corrupting, not government. And if government doesn't have the power, somebody else does. We at least have the ability to change the government when it becomes corrupt.
   431. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4105119)
That cartoon is actually quite offensive.

Not really. I mean, you wouldn't be offended if, instead of the 24 types of Libertarians, someone illustrated the one type of progressive would you?

You're right about the pedophilia and segregation stuff, but the libertarian and the modern prog see the world very differently on a few issues (see 427 & 429.) They are supposed to be able to laugh at each other.
   432. zonk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:33 PM (#4105124)
That cartoon is actually quite offensive. Libertarians are woefully misunderstood.


Well, that's what you get for having some nebulous preferences for a position on the ideological spectrum that has some tiny percentage of purveyors that wear Che-- I mean, Ayn Rand t-shirts...



   433. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:34 PM (#4105126)
Let me be explicitly clear, I don't expect anyone to care if I'm offended by a cartoon.
   434. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:37 PM (#4105130)
I never used to consider myself a libertarian, but I certainly do now. Anyone I've spoken to who has actually had an open mind and was capable of rational thought agrees with more libertarian principles than they had realized
I freely admit that there are plenty of positions I hold which are pretty libertarian. It's just that there are also many positions I hold which are also pretty liberal (and some which are pretty conservative), and when I express them, libertarians invariably call me a dirty statist/socialist who hates freedom.

Everyone complains about how other people misrepresent them. Everyone's right to a certain extent. Libertarians are no more victimized than anyone else, so... yeah, boo ####### hoo.

Let me be explicitly clear, I don't expect anyone to care if I'm offended by a cartoon.
You must, to some extent. You expressed it in a public forum, and you wouldn't have if you didn't.
   435. Greg (U)K Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4105132)
I do sympathize with the cartoon creator, though. Leftist "political" humor is almost always singularly unfunny and cringe-inducing, leaving as the only mystery whether the problem rests with leftism or leftists. That's a tough obstacle for anyone to overcome.

Is this a particular problem of the left? Maybe I'm just not looking in the right places but the right doesn't exactly have a proud tradition of comics does it? Dennis Miller is the only one I can think of off the top of my head and pretty much anything funny I can think of from him was decidedly un-political. I would imagine all confessional political comedy would be lacking somewhat as it inherently dillutes the goal of comedy with the goal of scoring political points.
   436. Kurt Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:38 PM (#4105133)
The lamest square in that cartoon is (1,4), which is so broad it could apply to conservatives, liberals, Mariners fans...anybody. It may as well be a stand-in for the cartoonist, directly responding to the guy in (1,3).
   437. Greg (U)K Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:41 PM (#4105135)
Yeah I'd say the principles of libertarianism sometimes produce positions I agree with, and sometimes they don't.
   438. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:53 PM (#4105146)

Good comedians typically have some level of self-deprecation and good satirists typically have some affection for the subject of their satire. A lot of political "humor" lacks both of those elements, which is why it's not funny. It has nothing to do with ideology.
   439. zonk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 03:54 PM (#4105147)
Yeah I'd say the principles of libertarianism sometimes produce positions I agree with, and sometimes they don't.


Frankly, that's why it's not really a 'social ideology' or realistic theory of governance... and why it's sort of pointless to talk politics with "libertarians".

I mean, who doesn't find some form of agreement with a thought process that essentially comes down to "leave me, my money, my body, my relationships, et al alone and let me make up my own mind". I don't care if you're conservative, liberal, 'moderate' or haven't ever had so much as a single thought about ideology or government -- there's certainly some aspect of life you'd just assume no one else had any influence over but you.

Whether you want to call him a true libertarian or not might be up for debate, but I'd bet there isn't a single person in the US who doesn't have ONE thing they strongly agree with Ron Paul about...
   440. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4105157)
I mean, who doesn't find some form of agreement with a thought process that essentially comes down to "leave me, my money, my body, my relationships, et al alone and let me make up my own mind". I don't care if you're conservative, liberal, 'moderate' or haven't ever had so much as a single thought about ideology or government -- there's certainly some aspect of life you'd just assume no one else had any influence over but you.


Yes, and for liberals, those aspects are two: sex and drugs.

Well, three, if we include rock & roll.
   441. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4105158)
Frankly, that's why it's not really a 'social ideology' or realistic theory of governance... and why it's sort of pointless to talk politics with "libertarians".

I mean, who doesn't find some form of agreement with a thought process that essentially comes down to "leave me, my money, my body, my relationships, et al alone and let me make up my own mind". I don't care if you're conservative, liberal, 'moderate' or haven't ever had so much as a single thought about ideology or government -- there's certainly some aspect of life you'd just assume no one else had any influence over but you.

Whether you want to call him a true libertarian or not might be up for debate, but I'd bet there isn't a single person in the US who doesn't have ONE thing they strongly agree with Ron Paul about...


This is a good point. The sticky issues of politics are always the ares where the rights of the individual to be left alone conflict with the rights of (one or more) of the family, the neighbors, the community, the state, the nation, etc., and somebody's rights have to give.

The problem with Libertarians is that many don't recognize that those other groups have rights, so the arguments become futile. Strangely, they ascribe rights to corporations, but not other collectives.
   442. zonk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:00 PM (#4105159)
Good comedians typically have some level of self-deprecation and good satirists typically have some affection for the subject of their satire. A lot of political "humor" lacks both of those elements, which is why it's not funny. It has nothing to do with ideology.


Whither Stephen Colbert?

I think he's a superb satirists -- granted, I'm ideologically kindred with him, and sure, he misses the mark (especially in interviews) on more than rare occasions, but in many cases, I think his act is hilarious. I thought his Colbert SuperPAC stuff was top notch.
   443. Greg (U)K Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:07 PM (#4105164)
Yes, and for liberals, those aspects are two: sex and drugs.

You say that like it's a bad thing! I'm hesitant to speak for such an nebulous blob of people as "liberals" but I think a few of them like Ron Paul's anti-war stuff too.

If nothing else Colbert's satire is impressive. I hesitated bringing him up because while I think he's funny (or thought...I haven't seen his show in probably 5 years or so) such an opinion isn't going to make much headway in the "left vs. right: Who's Funnier" debate.
   444. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4105166)

Yes, and for liberals, those aspects are two: sex and drugs


If only that was actually true.
   445. Lassus Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:12 PM (#4105167)
I could, but you wouldn't listen.........kidding. I just think its sad that people actually believe libertarians are advocates for pedophilia and segregation.

I admit pedophilia's a low blow. But, please note where I've both admired and proffered Szym as the libertarian spokesman about two dozen times over the past three years. And that's WITH Szym's "I'll tell my daughter we won't buy ice cream there" argument. Or, you could listen to...


Funny stuff coming from somebody who weeps and stamps his feet like a petulant toddler every time somebody makes a truthful observation about the perfidious practices of liberals.

Making things up on the internet is fun. Find where I was offended because someone made fun of a liberal. Until then, keep up with the tiger blood, winning-boy. (Me getting pissed because you called me a thief for paying less taxes than you is not the same thing. Words - important AND easy.)


Well, three, if we include rock & roll.

Not the way Hutcheson defines it. Blech.

(And, to be accurate, liberals are often rather against nazi death metal, actually.)


Not really. I mean, you wouldn't be offended if, instead of the 24 types of Libertarians, someone illustrated the one type of progressive would you?

Give me 24 types and we'll talk!

   446. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4105169)
I just think its sad that people actually believe libertarians are advocates for pedophilia and segregation.


I'll give you pedophilia (see how generous I can be!?) But our resident libertarian-right chorus has already regaled us previously on the natural rights of segregation, back when Rand Paul was running for Senate.
   447. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:15 PM (#4105170)
"such an opinion isn't going to make much headway in the "left vs. right: Who's Funnier" debate."

There's a debate about that? What kind of handicap are you giving the right-wingers that even gets them in the argument?
   448. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:16 PM (#4105172)
This is a good point. The sticky issues of politics are always the ares where the rights of the individual to be left alone conflict with the rights of (one or more) of the family, the neighbors, the community, the state, the nation, etc., and somebody's rights have to give.

The problem with Libertarians is that many don't recognize that those other groups have rights, so the arguments become futile. Strangely, they ascribe rights to corporations, but not other collectives.


As you know, Snapper, the rights flow from those of the individual. Corporations are formed by people who agree to be members of the group; but collectives such as "neighbors" and "the state" are not people who have agreed to be similarly bound (*). Corporations don't take from anyone (or if they do, they're subject to punishment); collectives such as "the state" do.

(*) And this is why liberals have to resort to talking about the silly, non-existant notion of a "social contract."

   449. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:17 PM (#4105173)
Yes, and for liberals, those aspects are two: sex and drugs.


You mean actual bodily rights of the human animal, as opposed to abstracted, disembodied "rights" of some vague, theoretical, legally constructed entity wrapped up in the psychology-masquerading-as-math that is economics?

Yeah. Sure. Put me down with that. And hell, throw in rock and roll while you're add it.
   450. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:19 PM (#4105176)
Not the way Hutcheson defines it. Blech.


Take it up with the rector, choir boy.
   451. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:20 PM (#4105177)
As you know, Snapper, the rights flow from those of the individual. Corporations are formed by people who agree to be members of the group; but collectives such as "neighbors" and "the state" are not people who have agreed to be similarly bound (*). Corporations don't take from anyone (or if they do, they're subject to punishment); collectives such as "the state" do.


You really hate your mom and dad this much?
   452. ?Donde esta Dagoberto Campaneris? Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:22 PM (#4105180)
But our resident libertarian-right chorus has already regaled us previously on the natural rights of segregation, back when Rand Paul was running for Senate.

When the ACLU supported the rights of Nazis to march through Skokie, were they pro-Nazi? Or merely supportive of the right of all peoples to exercise free speech? Do you understand the distinction? If so, why do you pretend otherwise?
   453. The Good Face Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:24 PM (#4105186)
Making things up on the internet is both fun and easy. Find where I was offended because someone made fun of a liberal. Until then, keep up with the tiger blood, winning-boy.


Clearly, since you're doing it right now. But hey, if you want to pretend you're not brittle and thin-skinned in political threads here, go nuts. Just makes it more fun for me the next time you do it.
   454. Tripon Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4105188)
As you know, Snapper, the rights flow from those of the individual. Corporations are formed by people who agree to be members of the group; but collectives such as "neighbors" and "the state" are not people who have agreed to be similarly bound (*). Corporations don't take from anyone (or if they do, they're subject to punishment); collectives such as "the state" do.


I would argue that the individual people who belong to that corporation has these rights, but not the corporation itself. A corporation is a tool used to help amass capital, treating it as something else defeats the purpose.
   455. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:26 PM (#4105189)
As you know, Snapper, the rights flow from those of the individual. Corporations are formed by people who agree to be members of the group; but collectives such as "neighbors" and "the state" are not people who have agreed to be similarly bound (*). Corporations don't take from anyone (or if they do, they're subject to punishment); collectives such as "the state" do.

But I don't entirely agree with that. Some rights flow from the individual, but humans are social creatures, we are not autonomous. We have involuntary associations (e.g. family, community, nation) as well as voluntary ones (religion, community organizations, corporations). Both confer rights, priveleges and responsibilities. The simplest example is that a parent has no individual right to not support his minor children; there is a non-voluntary unvoidable association.

The business of social organizations and gov't (as a specific social org.) is mediating the conflicting claims between individual and association (voluntary or involuntary).
   456. Lassus Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:28 PM (#4105193)
Clearly, since you're doing it right now.

Indictment is not humor, doofus.

Words!

EDIT: Actually, that's not really accurate. Oh well. Keep looking, though, I'll wait for you to point it out, Charlie.
   457. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:31 PM (#4105195)
I would argue that the individual people who belong to that corporation has these rights, but not the corporation itself. A corporation is a tool used to help amass capital, treating it as something else defeats the purpose.

Whereas I would expand it and say all kinds of collectives have certain rights (voluntary and involuntary).
   458. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:36 PM (#4105197)
I think he's a superb satirists -- granted, I'm ideologically kindred with him, and sure, he misses the mark (especially in interviews) on more than rare occasions, but in many cases, I think his act is hilarious. I thought his Colbert SuperPAC stuff was top notch.

Colbert is a good example, and I think it's clear that while he disagrees with conservatives, he doesn't hate them. It's why he's actually funny, while Miller, or Limbaugh/Olbermann when they're trying to be funny, simply aren't.

EDIT: Another way to say it is that shrillness, while sometimes appropriate, is rarely funny. Lewis Black manages to do it, but that's more shtick than reality.
   459. Rickey Fredonia Fudge Duckery Precious Twiddle Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:41 PM (#4105200)
When the ACLU supported the rights of Nazis to march through Skokie, were they pro-Nazi? Or merely supportive of the right of all peoples to exercise free speech?


Probably the latter.

Do you understand the distinction?


I don't know, man. Math is *hard.*

If so, why do you pretend otherwise?


If the ACLU were supporting public policy actions which would *facilitate a rise in power for Nazis and Nazi social programs* I'd have a much bigger issue with the ACLU.
   460. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:44 PM (#4105202)
Let me be explicitly clear, I don't expect anyone to care if I'm offended by a cartoon.

Wait, you mean you were actually offended by that cartoon, and not just having us on? For my own sense of faith in the human race, please tell me it's the latter.

   461. zonk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:45 PM (#4105203)
As you know, Snapper, the rights flow from those of the individual. Corporations are formed by people who agree to be members of the group; but collectives such as "neighbors" and "the state" are not people who have agreed to be similarly bound (*). Corporations don't take from anyone (or if they do, they're subject to punishment); collectives such as "the state" do.


That's not entirely true --

For one thing, corporations necessarily have interactions with individuals -- and all you have to do is look at everything from intellectual property to say, online privacy/personal data aggregation, the misuse of copyright/trademark law, things like SLAPP suits, etc -- to see that corporations are quite capable of trampling the individual, too.

As for 'collectives' like the state - I suppose you don't have much choice where you're born (but then, until you reach adulthood, your choices of interactions with corporations are likewise limited, just by your parents) - but you're free to leave many, even most, states if you so choose.
   462. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:48 PM (#4105206)
In general, conservativism and comedy go together like peanut butter and gravel. That's not said as a criticism; the two fields just aren't deeply compatible.
   463. Lassus Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:50 PM (#4105209)
#458 is dead on. From what I recall, Colbert is/was a Sunday school teacher as well. Not one snapper would agree with, I doubt, but religious.
   464. Ron J Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:53 PM (#4105212)
#435 P. J. O'Rourke is a fave.
   465. zonk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4105215)
In general, conservativism and comedy go together like peanut butter and gravel. That's not said as a criticism; the two fields just aren't deeply compatible.


Yeah - I was trying to think of a good conservative humorist... the best I can come up with is PJ O'Rourke, whom I do find occasionally amusing. The Zuckers used to be funny - but whether pure or coincidence or otherwise - it seems like they quit making funny movies right around the time they changed their political stripes. I actually saw An American Carol - and I really, really, really did try to give it a fair shake... but it's just not funny - there was a tiny handful of moments - but I saw it in a theater, and I don't think I've ever been in a theater for a comedy that drew fewer laughs. It was like 80 minutes of Nelson Muntz using your own fist to punch you and saying "stop hitting yourself stop hitting yourself stop hitting yourself..."
   466. zonk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4105216)
#458 is dead on. From what I recall, Colbert is/was a Sunday school teacher as well. Not one snapper would agree with, I doubt, but religious.


A Roman Catholic Sunday school teacher, in fact...
   467. Ron J Posted: April 12, 2012 at 05:04 PM (#4105220)
Leftist "political" humor is almost always singularly unfunny and cringe-inducing


Some of my favorite comic strips are unquestionably left leaning or straight left. Some of (say) Doonebury or Bloom County (or Outland) is indeed cringe-worthy and/or tired but a lot of it is in fact pretty funny (at least in my opinion -- I know a lot of people can't stand either. And it often has nothing to do with where they stand on the political spectrum, though I think righties are more likely to despise either of the strips)
   468. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 12, 2012 at 05:06 PM (#4105221)
In general, conservativism and comedy go together like peanut butter and gravel. That's not said as a criticism; the two fields just aren't deeply compatible.

That's more true than not, but as someone who grew up in the first years of William F. Buckley's National Review, I can testify that there are (or at least were) some exceptions to that, primarily Buckley himself but also including one or two of his cartoonists. And of course the underground humor in the former USSR and the satellite states was legendary in its ability to puncture "socialist" pretensions.

And the truth is that most liberal attempts at political humor are pretty lame themselves. The guy who attempts a sort of Ted Rall impression in the Sunday NY Times Week in Review is just embarrassingly bad, and he's hardly the only one whose bite is less than advertised. But the reason that more liberal attempts at humor succeed than their right wing counterparts is that there's not any large group of truly insane people on the left these days who're the equivalent of those who thrived in the late 60's and early 70's, whereas the rhetoric of today's Tea Party and Republican candidates is like a big fat bullseye that even the sorriest liberal comedian can't always miss.
   469. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 12, 2012 at 05:10 PM (#4105223)
Yeah - I was trying to think of a good conservative humorist... the best I can come up with is PJ O'Rourke, whom I do find occasionally amusing.

Absolutely, though at times his cholera wins out over his wit. I've heard he hasn't been well lately, though, and perhaps that might explain part of his recent slippage. But much of his earlier work, like that bit of reporting he did on one of The Nation's cruise ships, was worthy of the best satirists anywhere on the spectrum. Ditto Tom Wolfe's Radical Chic sendup of Leonard Bernstein's Black Panther fundraising party.
   470. zonk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 05:11 PM (#4105225)
Some of my favorite comic strips are unquestionably left leaning or straight left. Some of (say) Doonebury or Bloom County (or Outland) is indeed cringe-worthy and/or tired but a lot of it is in fact pretty funny (at least in my opinion -- I know a lot of people can't stand either. And it often has nothing to do with where they stand on the political spectrum, though I think righties are more likely to despise either of the strips)


I always thought Bloom County was better than Doonesbury -- I'm pretty sure Berkeley Breathed is a lefty, but Bloom County, I think, did an excellent job mixing up the skewerings. Recall Steve Dallas getting transformed into a metrosexual by aliens, for example...

Anybody know where I can find any Meadow Party campaign posters?
   471. Greg (U)K Posted: April 12, 2012 at 05:12 PM (#4105226)
Absolutely, though at times his cholera wins out over his wit. I've heard he hasn't been well lately

I should say so, cholera is no walk in the park!
   472. zonk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 05:15 PM (#4105228)
Ditto Tom Wolfe's Radical Chic sendup of Leonard Bernstein's Black Panther fundraising party.


Wolfe would be another one I enjoy.
   473. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 12, 2012 at 05:28 PM (#4105239)
I always thought Bloom County was better than Doonesbury

Agree there, since the absurdist / anarchic POV is usually the style that holds up best.

But while Doonesbury can sink into the "We Are The World" sort of sentimentalism, some of his best stuff in the old days was just as much of a lampoon of the Left as it was of the Right. It wasn't O'Rourke or Wolfe who created a minister whose cat was named "Kent State", and until he outed himself and became sort of a gay icon, Megaphone Mark was a total sendup of the stereotyped campus radical.
   474. Ron J Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4105258)
I've heard he hasn't been well lately


Cancer

(Treatable and in remission right now)
   475. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4105259)
The two best targets for politically-tinged (*) humor are (a) the embarrassingly earnest -- think Scott McKenzie's San Francisco video; and (b) limelight-hogging nouveau riche plutocrats -- think "short-fingered vulgarian" Henry Kravis. The late, great Spy Magazine lambasted the latter as well as they can be lambasted and the world was a better place when they were doing it.(**) Andy's hit on some of the great cut-ups of the former.

(*) Used very elastically; each is such an easy target that politics per se isn't driving the humor.

(**) Donald Trump was a frequent target, but he outlasted Spy. That isn't a felicitous development.
   476. Ray (RDP) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:13 PM (#4105263)
I've heard he hasn't been well lately

Cancer


Interesting column.

I'm reminded of what Christopher Hitchens wrote after being diagnosed:

"In whatever kind of a 'race' life may be, I have very abruptly become a finalist."
   477. The John Wetland Memorial Death (CoB) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:26 PM (#4105274)
#435 P. J. O'Rourke is a fave.


His earlier stuff is fantastic; Holidays in Hell and Parliament of Whores in particular still hold up very well ...
   478. JPWF1313 Posted: April 12, 2012 at 06:43 PM (#4105283)
Colbert is a good example, and I think it's clear that while he disagrees with conservatives, he doesn't hate them. It's why he's actually funny, while Miller, or Limbaugh/Olbermann when they're trying to be funny, simply aren't.


Is that what Limbaugh and Olbermnann are trying to do?

Seriously, I haven't seen Olbermann enough to comment, but many of Rushbo's audience do think that his jokes are funny of course that would be the scariest knuckle dragging section of his audience. Rush obviously thinks that not only is he funny, but sometimes he thinks he's hysterical (he's not, when he's in his "look at me I could have done stand-up" mode he's actually pretty creepy)

I've seen Maddow's show a few times, and she clearly thinks she's funny, but alas she's not, she's just really annoying.

And then there is Mallard Fillmore- the only thing more constant than its politics is its complete lack of humor- I mean you have a duck giving a deadpan comment, usually about lefties, and usually intended to be ironic in some fashion- but in reality the strips all fall into these categories
1: A deadpan observation regarding some non-existent strawman, no set up, not funny
2: A deadpan observation regarding some nearly non-existent fringe lefties (where it is assumed that such lefties constitute the mainstream of the left- functional equivalent of a strawman argument), no set up, not funny
3: A deadpan observation regarding how liberals are inconsistent and/or hypocritical- most but not all of these simply mischaracterize liberals/ liberal beliefs/ liberal actions, but again no actual joke set up, not funny (even when the observations are "accurate"

I have no doubt that the guy who writes Mallard Fillmore is the type of guy who could be given the 10 best one liners ever created, stand up at a club at open mike night- deliver each 10 and be met with the sound of crickets...
   479. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 07:43 PM (#4105322)
Is that what Limbaugh and Olbermnann are trying to do?

Not all the time, but I've certainly seen them try to be funny. Limbaugh moreso than Olbermann.

Seriously, I haven't seen Olbermann enough to comment, but many of Rushbo's audience do think that his jokes are funny of course that would be the scariest knuckle dragging section of his audience. Rush obviously thinks that not only is he funny, but sometimes he thinks he's hysterical (he's not, when he's in his "look at me I could have done stand-up" mode he's actually pretty creepy)

I think most bad political humor requires that you believe the absolute worst about your opponent, so yeah, that stuff will be lapped up by the true believers. The real question is whether moderates or folks on the other side will find it funny.
   480. Sonic Youk Posted: April 12, 2012 at 08:21 PM (#4105334)
This thread has been far better than I anticipated, but as long as we are playing the "your side is worse" game, why has Pinochet taken such a back seat? His fan club in the western right was a lot bigger and more important than a bunch of left wing college kids wearing t shirts.
   481. streak of perros Posted: April 12, 2012 at 08:35 PM (#4105338)
You mean actual bodily rights of the human animal, as opposed to abstracted, disembodied "rights" of some vague, theoretical, legally constructed entity wrapped up in the psychology-masquerading-as-math that is economics?

Yeah. Sure. Put me down with that. And hell, throw in rock and roll while you're add it.


#### YEAH!
   482. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 12, 2012 at 09:10 PM (#4105344)
I've heard [P.J. O'Rourke] hasn't been well lately

Cancer

(Treatable and in remission right now)


Glad to know he's likely to survive it. He used to come into my shop about 9 or 10 years ago when I was first selling posters, and he snapped several of them up immediately, including this one and this one and (I'm pretty sure) this one. Anyone who actually bought anything instead of saying "Great stuff---I'll come back when I have more time" is never going to get knocked by me over a little thing like politics.
   483. asdf1234 Posted: April 12, 2012 at 10:30 PM (#4105361)

The problem with Libertarians is that many don't recognize that those other groups have rights, so the arguments become futile. Strangely, they ascribe rights to corporations, but not other collectives.


Individuals do not surrender their natural rights by participating in collective action, whether political, religious, or corporate. This feature of natural rights theory is so obvious that I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person could believe otherwise.

And how bizarre that you would think that "libertarians" don't believe that individuals retain their rights when they are members of churches, nonprofits, or other non-corporate institutions. I would sincerely enjoy speaking with the confused natural rights advocate who supports limiting campaign contributions from churches or PACs or who advocates ignoring first amendment rights depending on when a political primary is scheduled.
   484. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: April 12, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4105363)
So before Castro, was Cuba a Carribbean vacation spot like the Bahamas or Jamaica? I only know it as this island with the embargo. In fact, I remember when I was in my 20's and I heard that you could get Cuban cigars in Canada and Japan and I was surprised. It had never occurred to me that other countries didn't have an embargo.
   485. Jolly Old St. Nick Done Jumped The Ship Posted: April 12, 2012 at 10:59 PM (#4105373)
So before Castro, was Cuba a Caribbean vacation spot like the Bahamas or Jamaica?

Cuba was certainly the most popular tourist venue in the Caribbean / Latin America region, being most famous for its mob-run casinos, its "gay" night life (in the former sense of that word), and its corruption. It was a big fat piece of fruit just waiting to be picked by any guerrilla with a well organized army and the ability to articulate grievances. In terms of standard of living, it was near the top in Latin America, but unsurprisingly, it was also topheavy in terms of distribution.

One other thing of note: From 1954 to 1960, Cuba had a AAA team in the International League, the Havana Sugar Kings, a farm club of (who else?) the Cincinnati Reds. They won the Junior World Series in 1959 with Castro arguing with the umpires and armed soldiers all around the stadium, but by July of 1960 the political situation became so tense that Ford Frick ordered the team to be moved to Jersey City, where for a year and a half they sported the singularly imaginative moniker of the "Jersey City Jerseys". I'd have to guess that Ford Frick himself picked the name.

   486. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 11:13 PM (#4105381)
Individuals do not surrender their natural rights by participating in collective action, whether political, religious, or corporate. This feature of natural rights theory is so obvious that I have a hard time believing that any reasonable person could believe otherwise.

Of course that depends on what you describe as "natural rights". They certainly give up some rights.

As member of a family, you don't have a right to withhold your income/wealth/property from the other family members, i.e. you can't refuse to support your spouse and children. You give up some of your right to property, and to your labor, in care for the children.

As member of a political entity, you don't have a right to withhold your effort from the national defense of that entity; whether it be the obligation to serve in the militia of an ancient polis, or the obligation of taxation or conscription in a modern state. You give up some of your rights of liberty and property. If you violate the terms of military service (e.g. desertion) you give up your very right to life.

As a member of a business partnership, you give up control of the assets you have contributed, and control of your labor to the collective control of the partnership. Again you give up some of your property rights.

As member of a religion, you give up your rights to hold certain beliefs and take certain actions. If you are a Muslim, you can't believe that Jesus Christ is the Son of God, or attend synagogue.
   487. tshipman Posted: April 12, 2012 at 11:22 PM (#4105385)
So before Castro, was Cuba a Carribbean vacation spot like the Bahamas or Jamaica? I only know it as this island with the embargo. In fact, I remember when I was in my 20's and I heard that you could get Cuban cigars in Canada and Japan and I was surprised. It had never occurred to me that other countries didn't have an embargo.


As I understand it, pre-Castro Cuba was the premier tourism destination in the Caribbean. I can't find a cite for that, however.

It's certainly likely that at this point, in an alternate universe where Castro never came to power, it would be the most popular tourism destination in the Caribbean for US citizens (if you take out the US, the DR is the only country that beats Cuba).

It's hard to say now, because the resorts are really shitty compared to the rest of the Caribbean. It'd probably be a strong #2, but it's ultimate destination would be a family vacation/gambling destination (like Vegas).
   488. Tripon Posted: April 12, 2012 at 11:29 PM (#4105386)
Here's an old article about a book written about pre-Castro Cuba. Its actually a pretty researched era, partly because of the mafia connection.

   489. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 12, 2012 at 11:44 PM (#4105391)

Cuba was certainly the most popular tourist venue in the Caribbean / Latin America region, being most famous for its mob-run casinos, its "gay" night life (in the former sense of that word), and its corruption.

This, and the rise of Castro/fall of Batista, is a key part of the plot of the Godfather 2.
   490. zenbitz Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4105701)
I like Ruben Bolling / Tom the Dancing Bug
and Tom Tomorrow / This Modern World

But they are probably too ideological for all you "centrists".
   491. The Good Face Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:38 PM (#4105733)
His earlier stuff is fantastic; Holidays in Hell and Parliament of Whores in particular still hold up very well ...


Yeah, during his peak in the 80s/90s, he was laugh out loud funny. Not so much over the past decade or so, but considering his age/health, no huge surprise.
   492. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:40 PM (#4105734)
As I understand it, pre-Castro Cuba was the premier tourism destination in the Caribbean. I can't find a cite for that, however.
Sky Masterson used to fly chicks there from New York just for an overnight roll.
   493. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4105759)
"Jersey City Jerseys"


Do you s'pose a person could find a game-worn Jersey City Jersey jersey on eBay?
   494. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 01:59 PM (#4105764)
Let me be explicitly clear, I don't expect anyone to care if I'm offended by a cartoon.

Wait, you mean you were actually offended by that cartoon, and not just having us on? For my own sense of faith in the human race, please tell me it's the latter.


I was offended by that cartoon as much as I'm offended by people who think Bush or Obama were/are good presidents, let's put it that way.
   495. Slivers of Maranville (SdeB) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4105792)

Do you s'pose a person could find a game-worn Jersey City Jersey jersey on eBay?


Don't know, but I've got a bud on one of the Channel Islands that repurposes old baseball uniforms to keep his cows warm. I could ask him if he has a Jersey Jersey City Jerseys Jersey jersey.
   496. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:45 PM (#4105837)
Haha, this reminds me of a good riddle i was told by a drunk British geology professor in front of a nice campfire. He asked us to give an example of a coherent sentence that had the same word in it five times in succession, without resorting to saying some like it qwas very, very, very, very, very hot.

This is the answer. There was a pub called the Crown and Anchor, and they needed a new street sign, so they enlisted the services of the local sign maker. He came back a couple of days later and put up the sign, but as he was coming down the ladder the pub owner came out adn complained that the sign wasn't quite right. He said that the word "Crown" was too low, but the word "Anchor" wasn't low enough. So the signmaker thought about it and replied "So what you're basically telling me is that there should be equal spaces between Crown and And and And and Anchor?"
   497. zonk Posted: April 13, 2012 at 02:53 PM (#4105853)
I was offended by that cartoon as much as I'm offended by people who think Bush or Obama were/are good presidents, let's put it that way.


Who would you consider to have been a "good President"?
   498. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:20 PM (#4105896)
Who would you consider to have been a "good President"?


Nobody since Kennedy for sure, but IMHO Bush and Obama are unequivocally the two worst.
   499. Dan The Mediocre Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:22 PM (#4105901)
Nobody since Kennedy for sure, but IMHO Bush and Obama are unequivocally the two worst.


That's an especially bad spelling of either Ford or Reagan (not sure which one you were going with).
   500. Rants Mulliniks (formerly Cold Prosimian) Posted: April 13, 2012 at 03:36 PM (#4105917)
If anyone doesn't view Obama as one of the very worst in history now, they will in 10 years. I am as confident in that as I am the the sun will rise tomorrow morning. Have a good weekend all.
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