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Saturday, January 23, 2010

ESPN: Neyer: OK, let’s discuss the Stark Plan

God save the Save
The statist regime

Jason tossed his proposal on the BBWAA’s discussion board this morning. There haven’t been many responses yet—I’m guessing that most BBWAA members don’t know how to use a discussion board ... or a computer (kidding!)—but one youngish member is opposed on the grounds that relief pitchers are ... well, they’re just not that important. That’s why they rarely get serious Cy Young support. Also, most of them are failed starters.

Well, I agree with my young(ish) colleague (as I usually do, and I wish I could tell you who I’m talking about but that would get banned, justifiably, from the message board and maybe kicked out of the BBWAA after just one year). About relief pitchers, anyway. I’ve been as vocal as anyone about the relative value of relievers, and I could make the argument that Hoyt Wilhelm (because of all the innings) and Mariano Rivera (because of all the Octobers) are the only relievers who belong in the Hall of Fame.

I just don’t find that argument particularly germane to the question at hand.

Look (and this is basically what I posted to the BBWAA board), isn’t this sort of like Rookies of the Year and MVPs?

Many years ago, the BBWAA created an award for a sub-class of great players, the great majority of whom simply weren’t developed enough or valuable enough to merit serious MVP consideration. Nevertheless, there was a sentiment for these young fellows who seemed to be doing something special. We’ve been handing out Rookie of the Year Awards since 1947, and exactly two players in all those years won MVP Awards, too: Fred Lynn and Ichiro Suzuki.

Similarly, I think it’s reasonable to reward these relief pitchers who, however less valuable than starters they might be, still are doing something quite special.

Repoz Posted: January 23, 2010 at 01:36 AM | 21 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: awards, history, sabermetrics

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   1. Rich Rifkin Posted: January 23, 2010 at 02:04 AM (#3444705)
We'll have something else to argue about every November! Will the voters simply go for the pitchers with the most saves? Will they even consider a setup man having a great year?
My vote is for Allen Iverson. ... God Save the Tattooed Neck.
   2. Steve Treder Posted: January 23, 2010 at 02:12 AM (#3444708)
I agree entirely with Rob's reasoning. The fact that we have a ROY award doesn't mean we confuse the ROY with the MVP, and a genuine "Reliever of the Year" award wouldn't be confused with the CYA. And, he's got it exactly right: the fact that relievers aren't as valuable/talented as starters doesn't mean that we can't, or that we shouldn't, acknowledge and celebrate the best relief pitching performances each year.

And the resulting examination of what the value of a Closer is vis-a-vis other relief pitching roles would be a fun and useful exercise.
   3. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: January 23, 2010 at 02:21 AM (#3444713)
If first basemen get a Gold Glove, I don't see why relievers shouldn't have their own award.
   4. Downtown Bookie Posted: January 23, 2010 at 02:24 AM (#3444715)
I agree entirely with Rob's reasoning. The fact that we have a ROY award doesn't mean we confuse the ROY with the MVP, and a genuine "Reliever of the Year" award wouldn't be confused with the CYA.


And yet, somehow, there are many who still confuse the CYA with the MVP, believing that anyone eligible to win the former is automatically disqualified from winning the latter.

DB
   5. Arne Olson Posted: January 23, 2010 at 02:25 AM (#3444716)
Whatever happened to the Rolaids Fireman of the Year award?
   6. esseff Posted: January 23, 2010 at 02:33 AM (#3444721)
The Rolaids award is done by formula, based, as I recall, on saves, blown saves, relief wins and relief losses. And I think in recent years, they gave bonus points for the difficulty of the save. The formula ensures that a good pitcher will win, but not necessarily the best.
   7. Srul Itza Posted: January 23, 2010 at 02:36 AM (#3444723)
With the creation of the Cy Young Award, it seems that pitchers are less likely to win the MVP. This has not necessarily been an unalloyed good, as some pitchers were probably denied the recognition they deserved as the MVP, but it did guarantee the pitchers some form of recognition every year.

With the creation of the Reliever award (and wither the Rolaids Relief/Fireman of the Year), does that mean that relievers will be less likely to win the Cy Young Award and/or the MVP? That would be a wholly good thing in my view.
   8. Steve Treder Posted: January 23, 2010 at 02:36 AM (#3444724)
there are many who still confuse the CYA with the MVP, believing that anyone eligible to win the former is automatically disqualified from winning the latter.

How many? I mean, aside from idiot BBWAA members?
   9. Srul Itza Posted: January 23, 2010 at 02:40 AM (#3444727)
Yeah but since those are the guys who vote on the award, how many do you need?
   10. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: January 23, 2010 at 03:21 AM (#3444739)
If first basemen get a Gold Glove, I don't see why relievers shouldn't have their own award.


I also think it would be fun to give a gold glove award for DH's. But to win it, a player would have to be incredibly bad when in the field, and have at least 50 innings to qualify.
   11. zachtoma Posted: January 23, 2010 at 04:03 AM (#3444750)
Or give it to the worst 1B or LF every year, like a Raspberry Award for fielders, that would be a gas. Adam Dunn would have run away with the last two.
   12. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 23, 2010 at 04:37 AM (#3444761)
you know--if they DID give Razzies for fielding, there'd be just as many arguments as there are for the GG
   13. Home Run Teal & Black Black Black Gone! Posted: January 23, 2010 at 05:32 AM (#3444772)
Would there? Maybe by position, but Adam Dunn is such a bad fielder he virtually cancels out a hitter of Adam Dunn's caliber. Adam Dunn's caliber! Adam Dunn has to be pretty bad to nullify Adam Dunn.
   14. Cris E Posted: January 23, 2010 at 06:36 AM (#3444787)
Many years ago someone at BPro watched a ton of tape and rated the fielders based on what he saw. He had access to the film room of some team or something, so it wasn't just a "two cases of beer in the living room" scouting job. Anyway, as the middle tended to blur together he only ranked and described the top and bottom five at each position. the description of the bad left fielders was one of the funniest things I can recall reading. Oh hell...

OK, found it. It was Gary Huckabay in 2000: Catching the D*mn Ball: Left Fielders Guess who this is about: "He plays defense like he's on a cell phone complaining about his Vicodin dosage being too low."
   15. Crispix Attacks Posted: January 23, 2010 at 07:04 AM (#3444791)
I wouldn't vote for a pitcher for MVP. They already have an award.
   16. danielj Posted: January 23, 2010 at 07:21 AM (#3444795)
Guess who this is about: "He plays defense like he's on a cell phone complaining about his Vicodin dosage being too low."

I was going to guess Grieve. It's not, though that slow-footed, groundball hitting early peaker earned a prominent position on the list.
   17. Walt Davis Posted: January 23, 2010 at 07:23 AM (#3444796)
I want an award for #2 starters! :-)
   18. Tripon Posted: January 23, 2010 at 07:24 AM (#3444797)
A reward for 2nd year starters!
   19. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: January 23, 2010 at 07:38 AM (#3444802)
I'd like to see a Non-Rookie of the Year- the best season by a guy who's still eligible for ROTY the next season. Or the opposite- best performance by somebody in his last year. For added difficulty, it has to go to somebody who hasn't announced his retirement, so he doesn't know it's his last year.
   20. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: January 23, 2010 at 03:12 PM (#3444849)
I always wanted an award for best performance by a guy named Al
   21. The Gurus DO NOT BourbonSamurai Posted: January 23, 2010 at 05:50 PM (#3444899)
The Keefe award?

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