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1. 6 - 4 - 3 Posted: June 03, 2010 at 07:45 PM (#3549708)Let's just hope it's an impetus for limited instant replay.
It may turn out to be correct, it might not, it's just "classic" Selig.
He doesn't say he's going to review the decision, but he doesn't say he isn't going to review the decision.
He doesn't say he's going to review the decision, but he doesn't say he isn't going to review the decision.
He pretty awesomely says nothing. Gotta give him credit.
I like that.
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/2010/baseball/mlb/06/03/selig.joyce/index.html
He offers no source.
He just said he's going to wait to make a decision. I don't know why everyone's reporting that he won't overturn it.
So it's not in Selig's statement but at least there is a source claiming that no overrule will be made.
Managers and players whine endlessly about correct calls. They've been whining about properly called HR since that system was instituted, and increasing the use of that system basically just because it exists. Increased instant replay is going to add at least 30 minutes to every game and that is going to suck.
That wasn't in the initial ESPN story.
Good for Bud. And in the long run, good for everyone. This will live longer as the perfect game that should have been than it would have as just the third of 2010, or worse, the one given to him by the commissioner's office.
I mean, yeah, & it's only June 3. Perfect game, schmerfect game -- what's so special about something that happens 3 times in 3 1/2 weeks?
Wake me up when someone hits for the cycle!
Different circumstances. One was an objection over the application of the rules, which has forever been a legal cause for protest. The other was on a judgment call, which has been forever off limits for league review.
You can make the argument that the commissioner's office made the wrong decision in the Brett case, but it was absolutely right to review it.
I don't think is true at all. I think it's better for Galarraga to have things stay the way they are. He has, rightfully, come out of this as a hero. Selig tinkering with it after the fact doesn't help him. As I've said elsewhere, what started off looking like a horrible, crying shame has turned into an inspirational exhibit of sportsmanship, with Galarraga in a starring role. Put the lineup card from today's game in Cooperstown, and it will get a lot more attention than whatever is there now commemorating various perfect games.
I don't think is true at all. I think it's better for Galarraga to have things stay the way they are. He has, rightfully, come out of this as a hero. Selig tinkering with it after the fact doesn't help him. As I've said elsewhere, what started off looking like a horrible, crying shame has turned into an inspirational exhibit of sportsmanship, with Galarraga in a starring role. Put the lineup card from today's game in Cooperstown, and it will get a lot more attention than whatever is there now commemorating various perfect games.
Agreed. Both Galarraga and Joyce right now are standing very tall, facing the situation as it is with dignity and grace.
MLB is lucky this wasn't Braden's game, say with Hernandez at 1B making that incorrect call. Holy jebus.
I don't think that's the case at all. What happens if we have a repeat of 1985 World Series Game 6 this fall? What possible justification could there be for Selig to overturn a judgment call that doesn't affect the outcome of a game in June, but not one that affects the outcome of the World Series? Is the losing team supposed to just accept that the commissioner only intervenes when it doesn't matter?
That's a horrible precedent to set. "Yes, we'll overturn the obviously missed call to give Andre Ethier his record-setting five-homer game, but we won't overturn the obviously missed call that would have given the Dodgers the NL West title." We also don't want every team on the bad end of a botched call appealing to the commissioner's office for redress.
Ah but that's where you're wrong. He said it all. I don't give a ####. That's what he said. Given last night's call, I will review the umpiring system? If he didn't do #### last fall, he ain't gonna do #### now.
What would Joe West have done?
I'd have to think that this episode would affect Joyce in the future when Gallaraga is on the mound. I wonder if he'll recuse himself if he doesn't think he can be objective.
How would this happen?
Brett Favre.
I don't think is true at all. I think it's better for Galarraga to have things stay the way they are. He has, rightfully, come out of this as a hero. Selig tinkering with it after the fact doesn't help him. As I've said elsewhere, what started off looking like a horrible, crying shame has turned into an inspirational exhibit of sportsmanship, with Galarraga in a starring role. Put the lineup card from today's game in Cooperstown, and it will get a lot more attention than whatever is there now commemorating various perfect games.
That was my instinctive reaction to the story when I first learned about it late last night, and I can't imagine why it's not a universal one. Who in the #### even remembers that Len Barker or Dennis Martinez pitched perfect games? A hundred times as many people know about Harvey Haddix's stroke of bad luck, and a hundred times as many people are going to remember this game than are going to remember Dallas Braden's.
Ding ding ding!
I agree.
Galarraga > Joyce >>>>> Blog commenters > Sports talk hosts > Milt Pappas >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Michigan politicians
For every game played, multiply every close call at first - or wherever else "limited" means - by 7 minutes. Four plays. Done.
I don't completely disagree with Tom's response in #24. To be honest, I'm still in the "this is ######-up, and I wish it hadn't happened" stage, and I'm not entirely sure what the best thing to do is; but I do know that I fall on the side of no more replay for the reasons I've already stated.
F*ck that.
#18 and #20 have it spot on. The sportsmanship and reaction of all involved has been brilliant. What an awesome lesson to teach not only kids, but most adults. Sure, the outcome is something they all strive to achieve, but how they all got there was far, far more important.
Sports are games played by humans and officiated by humans..sh*t happens, just let it go and learn about how you should behave when things don't go your way instead of crying foul all the time.
I have no problem with nor do I doubt the dignity and sportsmanship that is present in the current system or any possible future expansion. But I am intimately aware of everything that goes into the procedure, and my concern is time and number of plays that will be involved.
True, but I just despise instant replay. Modern societies obsession with everything being exactly right all the time is a quest for perfection that can never be attained. Life is random. Humans make mistakes. And of you course you still have occasional errors with the instant replay or calls that still cannot be judged accurately. You are simply shifting the goal posts.
Yes, you are. To a more effective and appropriate place.
Another example, Brett threw a temper tantrum about it.
To a degree. You still experience situations which cannot be sorted by instant replay, thereby still relying on the human element. I understand your argument, I just have a different philosophy towards the discussion.
Yep. (Stopped clock and all that, but yep.)
I'm compelled to repeat a point I made in email discussion with my extended family today:
The issues of delay time and number of plays could be readily dealt with about a gazillion different ways. The fear over these issues seems overblown.
It would get him the perfect game he earned. Overruling Joyce doesn't take away any of the class with which he and Galarraga have handled the situation. Galarraga'd still come off as a hero, and one who got what he deserved too.
That would not happen once, let alone every game. I'd expect an extra 5-10 minutes added to 2 games a week per team. Which is still bad, but much more reasonable.
Perfect games are dependant on luck anyway. Even if we think that pitchers have control over balls put into play, a bad hop to the third baseman and a mental mistake could result in an error or base hit, which screws up the perfecto. If the third baseman in this game had an easy ground ball hit to him for the 27th out and he pumped the throw into the first-base stands, the Little Cat would have lost the perfect game right there. Is a mental mistake by the first-base umpire all that different from a mental mistake by a player elsewhere on the diamond?
I know the world is plenty imperfect. It doesn't need to be any more imperfect than possible.
I said it before and I'll say it again, if you love imperfection and injustice, may they happen to you. I like my life, I have kids, they were hard earned. I know how easily it can be taken away, how bad things can happen. Anyone wishing for more bad or more accidents in the world is an utter fool. Because I don't wish pain or difficulty on anybody.
I admire Galarraga's graciousness. The problem is that he has no closure. For the rest of his hopefully long life, he is going to be asked about this game again and again. Wouldn't you rather either have the perfecto or lose it cleanly than this mess? Don't you think Jim Joyce wishes there was replay? Who wins, who gains by all of this?
Umpires are technicians, not craftsmen or artists. Baseball umpires do nothing that I wouldn't want replaced by a perfect robot. You can argue that basketball or football officials shouldn't make every foul call or holding call, so judgment must be made. That's not really the case for baseball umpires. It's utterly uninteresting me to see different strike zones for different umps, or any missed calls at all. No one goes to the game to see them. Nothing against the profession, but there is no art or craftsmanship to what they do.
Up to this point in your sentence, I agree. Awarding him the perfect game gives him the best of both worlds: he's already got the special circumstances to make him remembered, now he could get official recognition too. You disagree, but I think a show of support from the commissioner's office would be appreciated by Galarraga. I also think that yes, record-keeping purposes are important. Less so, but still. If you're going to keep stats, why not get them rignt?
Yes. To quote Jay Z in #54,
Yes, it is. Despite occasional whining around here about it, the neighborhood play around second base can protect our heroes from getting hurt. Calling balls and strikes is much more of an art than a science; the zone is different for every single batter. Calling for the tarp to come in when the rain changes gameplay might be a good call in a non-close game in the sixth, but not in the ninth inning of a one-run game.
The value of which is what, exactly? He has moved on, and is a hero because of it. He has been fully recognized for what he did.
A hundred times as many people know about Harvey Haddix's stroke of bad luck, and a hundred times as many people are going to remember this game than are going to remember Dallas Braden's.
Because that game keeps coming up, I need to mention my own indirect experience with it. My late father-in-law was a news clipping kind of guy. Well into his 90s, he would clip some random thing out of the paper and send it to you in the mail if he thought you would be interested. In his last years, this only intensified, to the point where he was finding things on the internet, printing them out, and scrawling notes in the margins and sending them. A few years ago, he sent me several pages from an article he found about the Haddix "perfect game". In the margins, he wrote that he remembered that game (nearly 50 years prior) vividly. He (HUGE Milwaukee baseball fan) listened to the game on the radio at home and then, once his family went to sleep, in the car in the driveway. The 13 inning game didn't even crack three hours, but that near 11 PM finish was way, way after his bedtime at that point in his life. For Christmas that year I printed out the box score and gave it to him in a picture frame.
Because then there's absolutely no logical reason not to override every other blown call. Look, a bad call was made, but given that, I can't imagine how it could have been handled any better by all concerned than it has today. This is one of those rare cases where an "Oprah Moment" (which took place at home plate in Comerica today) was not only genuine, but wholly appropriate. At this point, we should just give it a rest.
Steve, I know you're aware I love your writing and I'm on your side in about everything, but this is about the least compelling argument I've ever heard. It is going to add time, you can only collect and cue up video so fast.
That would not happen once, let alone every game. I'd expect an extra 5-10 minutes added to 2 games a week per team. Which is still bad, but much more reasonable.
Oh, baloney. Counting today, there were 97 baseball games this week. That's 2,619 outs, and that doesn't count foul balls, just as a start. If you think that only twice a week IN TOTAL out of all those calls a manager or player is going to be saying "Hey, you can look at the replay" you are not facing reality.
In answer to both of you, let's say that barring the already instituted HR call, they allow two calls per game to be questioned, per team. There is no freaking way that all of these aren't used, again, the players and managers area constantly questioning calls. Maybe it's only one play per game, and how fast before a clearly blown call happens outside of those boundaries. OK, fine, we'll institute a second call.
The only way for this to be fixed will probably never occur. A clear, wide-open, long-term and often-publicized recruitment and training of umpires and greater pay. I mean, I'm not a finance guy but if you pay 60 umps $100,000 a year, that's $6 million from baseball's coffers. With advancement and raises, that's maybe $10 million per total. Make a show of it, and make it stick. I don't think this will happen, but I think it's the best idea.
Apparently you've never seen Lt. Frank Drebin call a game.
I'll give you that one.
The strike zone is specifically defined. If you're saying an umpire could do it more accurately than a robot, that's one thing. I can't think of a situation where I'd ever want the umpire to call a defined strike a ball, or vice versa. The umpire doesn't get to decide whether a high fastball should be a strike. The Greg Maddux strike zone was inappropriate.
The tarp call may be made by the umpires, but that task could easily be assigned to another official. It doesn't really go along with the balls and strikes and other calls.
Ideally, the primary concern in halting play should be safety of the players. In that case, the score shouldn't matter. The reality is that cash considerations are probably the driving factor. I suppose judgment is needed in that instance, or the ability to accept a phone call from higher management. Or higher management could just press a button and deploy the tarp, providing that Vince Coleman's whereabouts have been ascertained beforehand.
I imagine managers would ask for a replay for everything down to proving if the batter farted in the general direction of the catcher. I think an umpire granting a request wouldn't happen too often. Of course this assumes the review rules would be somewhat rational. I admit that Selig is capable of coming up with an idiotic system that satisfies no one.
Edit: Also, I didn't say twice a week in all of baseball. I said twice a week per team.
bunyon dealt with that very neatly, by suggesting a 5th ump stationed in a booth who would have the sole authority both to question and overrule any play on the field---but no player or manager would be allowed to instigate any review. As long as you keep all power in the hands of that one umpire with his replay cameras, a decision could be made very quickly.
The only way for this to be fixed will probably never occur. A clear, wide-open, long-term and often-publicized recruitment and training of umpires and greater pay. I mean, I'm not a finance guy but if you pay 60 umps $100,000 a year, that's $6 million from baseball's coffers. With advancement and raises, that's maybe $10 million per total. Make a show of it, and make it stick. I don't think this will happen, but I think it's the best idea.
I agree with that, but the focus should be on the minor league level, which is where the problem of insanely low salaries really lies.
Hey, that's Enrico Palazzo.
And you are equating this to instant replay? You are overeacting. I don't want people to be hit by cars when they cross the road either I too have kids(5 of them), so have a pretty good idea of how precious things are...so please don't preach, it's boring. My point was that life can be quite random, humans make mistakes, it happens, deal with it. Life will never be perfect, so learn to deal with adversity instead of whinging and the demanding change when things don't go your way.
YOU can learn a lesson for Galarraga. The irony is that his actions were above these petty arguments about demanding the righteous outcome all the time.
The means, not the ends, is what matters -- in everything. I'm sure Perros can say it more poetically than I.
We knew that the umpire had missed the call before the manager made it out to him last night. They're very fast with the "tape" nowadays.
I don't buy the "add 30 minutes to the game argument" just because football referees are woefully incompetent/far from the monitors. The NHL gets the calls down as quickly as it takes a viewer at home to come to a decision (which depends on the play). Baseball could be the same way. But it seems the "human element" movement wins again.
And after all my blathering....A tigers fan puts is most succinctly.
We just disagree then. I find either one meaningless without the other.
Have you ever looked at the man's wardrobe? For what he makes there can be no question that he is not only out of touch, but also that his judgment has been questionable for decades.
So who's going to explain this to Joe Girardi?
I suggesting something similar to St. Neck Wound in #65 last year; keep replay in the hands of the umps and you could potentially create more umpiring jobs and still keep things moving quickly. Perhaps if they re-instituted the system that was in place for the 2004 ALCS we'd all be happy?
I'm all for this. No challenge flags, no replay delays. If the call was so obviously wrong that the booth reviewer can see that it was wrong before the next pitch is thrown, then he can overturn it. If he needs to watch the replay from six different angles three times each in super slo-mo... well, we haven't got time for that. The call stands, and we move on.
And if you want to keep managers from pestering the umps for a replay, make it illegal to ask for one, just like it's illegal to argue balls and strikes.
This system corrects the egregiously blown calls, and would literally not add any time to the game, except when a call had to be overturned. Which wouldn't be all that often.
Absolutely. Anyone whining about "oh it would take so much time" is clearly uninformed about the NHL model.
So what's to stop a manager from going out to the mound to talk to his pitcher after one of these calls? Does the 5th umpire get more time to review and make the decision.
IMO, anything for instant replay in sports show come as a challenge from the perceived wronged team. And there should be a punishment associated with requesting it an being wrong. Maybe the pitcher or the next scheduled or current hitter(if the at bat isn't over) has to be replaced if the call isn't overturned?
I'm all for this. No challenge flags, no replay delays. If the call was so obviously wrong that the booth reviewer can see that it was wrong before the next pitch is thrown, then he can overturn it. If he needs to watch the replay from six different angles three times each in super slo-mo... well, we haven't got time for that. The call stands, and we move on.
That's the style of instant replay that I was for yesterday, until I read a Twins blogger write about how he thought that wouldn't fit the model of baseball appeals that already exists. It seems bizarre to have instant replay appeals be all automated and scripted and devoid of any team initiating it, when appealing a check swing or tagging up or missing a base altogether requires the aggrieved team to initiate a request, have the ump grant the request, and then rule in their favor, even if the ump knows beforehand that the rule wasn't followed. Now I'm thinking that I like his proposal, even if it could add some time to the game:
The NHL model is excellent, only thing is that only goals are reviewed, so looking at a very minimal number of instances where it can take place. What calls do we limit this to in Baseball? Closest equivalent is plays at the plate or home runs.
That's a good start. It's entirely possible to work this thing out, starting with the minimum.
it would be good to start that way, but where does that lead. Its completely unfeasible for the NHL to expand their version of replay(90% of penalties are subjective, and offsides happen so often that nobody expects those to be reviewed), but moving the model suggested for baseball isn't that far a step to say adding trap catches, or fair/foul, and then all base plays.
Perhaps it leads nowhere beyond that point. Perhaps it reasonably leads somewhere further. But the fact that replay could be implemented in a dumb manner doesn't mean that it couldn't be implemented in a sensible manner.
yup
True. But whatever the odds are for sensible implementation, I'll bet against it.
Nor does it mean it will. Witness the great success of the NCAA football replay system. Also, the NHL is a completely different game, as noted already, as are the plays it will be used for. We already have an NHL model now for the home runs. Anything greater is an expansion on the NHL model you keep hammering at.
Listen, I'm not unwilling to note the positives, trust me. I think that a fifth umpire in a booth is not so bad. If you're the main proponent, Steve, what are your reviewable and not reviewable calls? What are your limits? What is your plan other than "NHL MODEL". If I'm going for the status quo, it seems that the burden of proof is on you to provide the details.
Where are you going to get better ones? There's a ton of complaining every season when the veteran umpires take their vacations and the minor leaguers come up, so it's not like there's a huge reserve of clear upgrades.
Introducing 'The Galarraga Filter', bringing you a kinder, gentler voice to BTF ; )
I think at this point the umpiring in MLB has the same problem many unionized fields have. The old guys at the top with all the seniority are the biggest problems (ahem Joe West). Firing the crap umpires (West, Bucknor, Hernandez, etc) would clear out the dead wood and at least get crews that want to invisible rather than the center of attention into the game. The quality of the calls is already seen as terrible, so using the time to grow a new crop of good young umps would be worth any small extra bit of pain.
What would Joe West have done?
He would've ejected Galarraga for smiling after the call.
Better to light a fuse than curse the darkness, says I.
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