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Saturday, September 01, 2012

ESPN: Six seasons managing in the minors. How many dues must Ryne Sandberg pay?

RYNO: Repudiate Your Name Only.

Don’t be surprised if Sandberg joins the big league club in September, as he did last fall. And if the Phillies shake up their coaching staff—a good bet in light of their hugely disappointing season—Sandberg is likely to be working under manager Charlie Manuel in Philadelphia in some capacity in 2013.

Phillies senior advisor Dallas Green, the team’s scouting director when Philadelphia selected Sandberg in the 20th round of the 1978 draft, worked with former Phillies GM Pat Gillick to help bring Sandberg back to the organization in November 2010. He’s perplexed why the Cubs let him get away, but is convinced that Sandberg is destined to achieve big things in a major league dugout.

“I’m scared to death we’re gonna lose him ourselves,” Green says. “He’s in our plans, I will say that.”

The obvious question: Why does a Hall of Famer who needed only 456 games of minor league seasoning as a player require 845 games in Peoria, Knoxville, Des Moines and Allentown to prove that he can manage?

...“Triple-A is a horse[bleep] place to manage,” Green says. “Guys are always pissing and moaning about not being in the big leagues, or being sent down, or not getting a chance. You have all these grudge-holders with different agendas or an itch under their saddle, and there’s all that ragging going on. [Sandberg] is able to cut that ragging out and make them play the game of baseball. He’s done it everyplace he’s been.”

Repoz Posted: September 01, 2012 at 10:15 AM | 34 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cubs, phillies

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Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:08 AM (#4224368)
Are there any other managers who have been in the minors for six years? I guess not.
   2. Depressoteric Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:16 AM (#4224372)
Wally Backman?
   3. Darren Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4224378)
Well, there are 30 whole MLB managing jobs. Pretty much anyone who's managed in the minors for more than a year should get one automatically.
   4. Tripon Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:28 AM (#4224382)
Except there's are managers now who never managed in the minor leagues or at all. Donnie Mattingly, or Robin Ventura as examples. Not sure why managing in the minors is seen as a 'requirement' when its clearly not.
   5. charityslave is thinking about baseball Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4224383)
It's all perception. Since many people believe he "should" have gotten the Cubs job, now, he deserves a head coaching job to even the score. In fact, I think the perception that he should have been a big league manager has raised his value in the eyes of many in the media. Now, he's an obvious head coach toiling away at AAA.
   6. TerpNats Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:40 AM (#4224386)
If the Angels are dumb enough to dismiss Scioscia after this season, would Sandberg be a legitimate candidate to replace him?
   7. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:41 AM (#4224387)
Mattingly at least apprenticed for a decade as a hitting instructor and bench coach. AFAIK, Ventura had no previous coaching experience.
   8. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:58 AM (#4224401)
odd that sandberf has done ok and nobody gives him a shot
   9. Jim (jimmuscomp) Posted: September 01, 2012 at 12:09 PM (#4224405)
I'm not sure letting Scioscia go would be dumb.
   10. Tripon Posted: September 01, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4224419)
Scioscia seems to have lost his fastball.
   11. Everybody Loves Tyrus Raymond Posted: September 01, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4224475)
Legendary player: check.

Universally well-liked: check.

By all accounts, pretty good manager: check.

It is a bit weird he's still in the minors.
   12. cardsfanboy Posted: September 01, 2012 at 01:36 PM (#4224484)
Mattingly at least apprenticed for a decade as a hitting instructor and bench coach. AFAIK, Ventura had no previous coaching experience.


Same with Mike Matheny more or less. Although I do think catchers probably have some equivalency coaching experience by the nature of being a catcher.
   13. karlmagnus Posted: September 01, 2012 at 01:56 PM (#4224504)
He sounds a very good fit for the Red Sox. Having been such a great player, the remaining grumpy seniors would take him seriously, and not ##### as they do about Valentine, or push him around as they did with Francona.
   14. Gamingboy Posted: September 01, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4224517)
Hey, Marv Foley won titles in three AAA leagues, and I think he's now just a instructor somewhere. It's tough to become a MLB manager. Even tougher than being an MLB Player.
   15. Mike Emeigh Posted: September 01, 2012 at 02:38 PM (#4224537)
When you are a minor league manager, your lineups and your pitching usage are dictated by the needs of the major league parent. If the major league parent tells you to play Leslie Anderson in right field, that's what you do, even though Leslie Anderson hasn't played a significant number of innings in right field before now for a reason. If the major league team tells you to play Reid Brignac at shortstop and Tim Beckham at 2B, that's what you do, even though Tim Beckham has a future in your organization at SS and Reid Brignac (at this stage, anyway) is probably a utility infielder going forward. If the major league team sends you Jeff Niemann on rehab, Jeff Niemann is going to pitch even if it means bumping a guy who has been in your rotation all year.

In the minor leagues, winning games is secondary to developing players - so you do things differently than you do in the majors. For that reason, I think few major league teams look on the minors as a training ground for managers.

I think that if Ryne Sandberg is going to get a major league managing job, it's going to be with a team for which he didn't play - simply because it would be really hard to fire an icon should that become necessary.

-- MWE
   16. boteman is not here 'til October Posted: September 01, 2012 at 02:56 PM (#4224550)
I think that if Ryne Sandberg is going to get a major league managing job, it's going to be with a team for which he didn't play - simply because it would be really hard to fire an icon should that become necessary.

I heard somewhere that managers are hired to be fired. Just sayin'.

How many managers have died on the job? I don't mean on the job like John McSherry, but died instead of being fired.
   17. tjm1 Posted: September 01, 2012 at 03:18 PM (#4224568)
How many managers have died on the job? I don't mean on the job like John McSherry, but died instead of being fired.


Well, a lot more of them have voluntarily retired.
   18. Ebessan Posted: September 01, 2012 at 04:03 PM (#4224608)
How many managers have died on the job? I don't mean on the job like John McSherry, but died instead of being fired.

Well, the three that first came to mind (Danny Murtaugh, Dick Howser, and Fred Hutchinson) all resigned in failing health and weren't the active managers at the time of their death.
   19. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: September 01, 2012 at 04:05 PM (#4224610)
Connie Mack managed until 1950, but the autopsy subsequently revealed that he had actually died in 1943.
   20. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: September 01, 2012 at 04:57 PM (#4224637)
gonfalon

on behalf of the elderly i resemble that remark

   21. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 01, 2012 at 05:25 PM (#4224647)

I think that if Ryne Sandberg is going to get a major league managing job, it's going to be with a team for which he didn't play - simply because it would be really hard to fire an icon should that become necessary.


Sandberg isn't THAT much more of an icon than Robin Ventura with the White Sox, or even Ozzie Guillen when he was with the Sox. (Or Alan Trammell with the Tigers.)

But other than those two, of the biggest stars now managing - I would count Kirk Gibson, Don Mattingly, Dusty Baker, and Mike Scioscia in that group - it's true that none of them have ever managed the team(s) they're most noted for.
   22. BDC Posted: September 01, 2012 at 05:27 PM (#4224649)
Billy Martin hadn't managed the Yankees the year before he died (Christmas 1989), but there were evidently rumors that he would manage them again in 1990. I don't know that Steinbrenner formally named managers in those years, I think various guys on the payroll just arrived at spring training and whoever found the clipboard in his locker was manager for the next few months till he was fired again.
   23. Walt Davis Posted: September 01, 2012 at 07:57 PM (#4224723)
Should Sandberg have to "pay his dues"? Of course not. If he would be a good ML manager, he should be an ML manager whether he has any experience or not.

Anybody here or in the media really have a good clue as to whether Sandberg would be a good ML manager?

I feel for the guy because he did get kinda screwed over by the Cubs. He was interested in managing and they're the ones who sent him off to the minors to get experience and they'd talk later. In fairness to the Cubs, he seemed to kinda come out of nowhere and I can understand they might have had doubts as to how committed he really was to this career. As noted above, it's not clear that's quite the career ladder that it used to be. If the Cubs really wanted to develop him as a manager, they'd have made him the ML bench coach or hitting instructor or at least base coach.

But, yeah, Sandberg has done nothing but do what he was asked to do to prove he was serious. He clearly is serious about this as a career so if somebody thinks he'd be a good manager, he's more than deserving of a shot.
   24. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 01, 2012 at 10:15 PM (#4224814)

I feel for the guy because he did get kinda screwed over by the Cubs.


I don't know if there's been much discussion of this, but the Cubs really screwed themselves over as well. It's hard to know how good a manager Sandberg would be, but he's gotta be better than a guy you had to fire after one season.
   25. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: September 01, 2012 at 10:17 PM (#4224815)
For Ryno, getting to manage a big-league club is a lot more difficult than making the Hall. Oddly enough, Alan Trammell experienced the exact opposite.
   26. The Yankee Clapper Posted: September 01, 2012 at 10:23 PM (#4224820)
How many managers have died on the job?

Miller Huggins, perhaps most notably.
   27. Bruce Markusen Posted: September 01, 2012 at 10:33 PM (#4224833)
Sandberg strikes me as a very intelligent and thoughtful guy. He's not a firebrand--like a Billy Martin or a Dick Williams--but then again few managers are today.

Today's players seem to to prefer a manager who has played in the big leagues; the fact that Sandberg is a Hall of Famer would give him additional credibility. I think he'd be a good choice for a team like the Royals or the Astros.
   28. Perry Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4224879)
Gil Hodges was Mets manager when he died of a sudden heart attack.
   29. Sebastian Posted: September 01, 2012 at 11:59 PM (#4224884)
I understand why the new regime went with Sveum. I will never understand why they didn’t give the job to Sandberg when Piniella resigned. Right now is pretty bad, but Ryne seems the kind of person who would have stuck with it and …

Stupid me. Sandberg is the one manager Cubs fans would never turn on. It’s a shame that he left the organisation, but as long as we lose 95 games he can’t stay.
   30. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: September 02, 2012 at 12:06 AM (#4224889)
How many managers have died on the job?

Miller Huggins, perhaps most notably.

rather grislyly (is that a word?), the the 1966 Tigers had 2 die in the same season.
   31. Tuque Posted: September 02, 2012 at 03:04 AM (#4224935)
sandberf

I'm trying to decide if this is a typo or a really great nickname that I've never heard before.
   32. God Posted: September 02, 2012 at 07:03 AM (#4224948)
Chick Stahl was still managing the Red Sox when he killed himself. (And some Boston fans I gather would be eager for history to repeat itself.)
   33. The Long Arm of Rudy Law Posted: September 02, 2012 at 08:22 AM (#4224957)
Chick Stahl was still managing the Red Sox when he killed himself. (And some Boston fans I gather would be eager for history to repeat itself.)


They want Chick Stahl to kill himself again? What kind of people are Red Sox fans???
   34. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 02, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4225034)
sandberf

I'm trying to decide if this is a typo or a really great nickname that I've never heard before.


I say we start calling him Sandblern. After all, he was a hitting machine for a while back in the day.

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