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Thursday, December 08, 2005

ESPN.com - MLB - Red Sox deal Renteria to Braves for Marte

The Braves are trying to ensure parity in the NL East it seems.

Sean McNally Posted: December 08, 2005 at 05:15 PM | 240 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: braves, red sox

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   101. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:04 PM (#1767879)
Also, for some reason I dislike that this thread takes me to Sox Therapy.
Awww, but we like having you here.
Have people heard what the Sox are supposedly thinking about doing for shortstop?
The Sox did just save another $6M here. Assuming they also dump one of Wells/Clement/Arroyo, the Red Sox should have $20-25M still to spend. That's enough for Damon plus one big upgrade somwhere else to offset the drop. And I think Petunia/Cora will not be too, too far off from Renteria, though they are a downgrade.
   102. 1k5v3L Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:07 PM (#1767889)
unless the red sox somehow trade marte to pitt or milw, i'm devastated.

anyhow, what's up with dumb braves moves?

first they lose marte, then julio franco?
   103. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:07 PM (#1767890)
His **** name is not **** Petunia! That's a stupid **** thing a Yankee Chatterer said! It's Pedroia!
   104. Tom Cervo, backup catcher Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:10 PM (#1767897)
His **** name is not **** Petunia! That's a stupid **** thing a Yankee Chatterer said! It's Pedroia!

You would think people could remember a sure fire HOFer's name. Geez.
   105. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:11 PM (#1767903)
I'm pretty sure "Petunia" is the creation of a Mets chatterer, who was making fun of kevin at the time.
   106. Honkie Kong Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:12 PM (#1767905)
The Julio move isnt that dumb. They don't want to give hima 2 yr deal, and definitely not aat $2 mil per.
and age might have finally caught up with him too
   107. Backlasher Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:12 PM (#1767906)
Petunia! That's a stupid **** thing a Yankee Chatterer said! It's Pedroia!


Petunia Pedroia is kind of a funny name.
   108. Honkie Kong Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:13 PM (#1767912)
Petunias remind me of hitchhiker's guide..where the 2 missiles headed to the ship transform into a blue whale and a bowl of petunias :)
   109. Swedish Chef Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:13 PM (#1767914)
Pedroia is the prettiest flower in the Red Sox garden.
   110. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:13 PM (#1767915)
I'm pretty sure "Petunia" is the creation of a Mets chatterer

Yankees chatter, Mets chatter, whatever.

In not-at-all related news, the Yankees have apparently shed Womack to the Reds.
   111. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:15 PM (#1767920)
The Red Sox picked up a 2b in the AAA phase of the Rule V draft. Is this move a sign the Sox are moving Pedroia back to SS? And please god, don't let the four headed monster trade Marte.

1.???? CF
2. Loretta 2B
3. Ortiz DH
4. Manny LF
5. Tek C
6. Trot/??? RF
7. Youks 1B
8. Marte 3b
9. Pedroia SS

Still have Lowell, Shoppach, and a starting pitcher(s) to trade, Stern as 4th OF or emergency CF.
   112. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:15 PM (#1767922)
Petunias remind me of hitchhiker's guide..where the 2 missiles headed to the ship transform into a blue whale and a bowl of petunias :)

Curiously enough, the only thing that went through the mind of the bowl of petunias as it fell was "Oh no, not again." Many people have speculated that if we knew exactly why the bowl of petunias had thought that, we would know a lot more about the nature of the universe than we do now.
   113. Mister High Standards Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:15 PM (#1767923)
I'm hoping the Sox send Youklis to Mil for Billy Hall.

Hall plays SS
Marte Plays 3b
Lowell and Freedom platoon at 1b.
   114. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:16 PM (#1767924)
Where's the thread about the Womack news?

I wanna talk about it!
   115. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:16 PM (#1767927)
1.???? CF
2. Loretta 2B
3. Ortiz DH
4. Manny LF
5. Tek C
6. Trot/??? RF
7. Youks 1B
8. Marte 3b
9. Pedroia SS


#s 7-9 in your line-up seem really unlikely to me, though I'd like for that to be the case.
   116. 1k5v3L Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:17 PM (#1767929)
7. Youks 1B

Yeah, I'll believe it when I see it.

More like, Youks traded to nothing
   117. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:17 PM (#1767933)
Lowell and Freedom platoon at 1b.

Ahhhh, you have an active imagination. I've given up all hope of Freedom getting a legitimate shot.
   118. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:18 PM (#1767938)
Where's the thread about the Womack news?

I wanna talk about it!


It's up in the Transaction Oracle, I saw.
   119. haven Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:20 PM (#1767943)
that's what's been rumored. Marte and Shoppach for Lugo and Huff.

Quick Littlefield, get on the phone.... Wilson and Wilson for Marte and Shoppach.
   120. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:24 PM (#1767958)
But what are the Sox going to do with Pedroia if they have a 2b (Bacani) they have to keep in AAA?
Bacani was a third round draft pick. It does not seem that the Sox set out to get him, but took him on a whim. Maybe he is insurance in case the Sox decide to use Pedroia at SS.
   121. Joel W Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:27 PM (#1767967)
One nice thing is that with Lowell around we could use Marte as Trot's platoon partner in right, while Lowell plays 3rd.
   122. Backlasher Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:29 PM (#1767981)
Life was so much more pleasant just a few days ago when I could imagine you'd been bludgeoned to death by a neighbor who'd gotten tired of your act.


Then by all means, keep doing so. Imigination has never been a particular problem with you fanboys. I still think you imagined Jack Crust won a triple crown.
   123. Spivey Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:29 PM (#1767982)
I'm not a fan of this trade for Atlanta, but it's amazing how sure some people are that Betemit is legit. I wouldn't be surprised if he had an OPS of 650 next year.
   124. Danny Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:31 PM (#1767989)
Awww, but we like having you here.


I like being here, I just like having an exit strategy of clicking on other hot topics in case I get surrounded.
   125. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:32 PM (#1767992)
David Bacani is the next Jeff Kent.
   126. Spivey Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:32 PM (#1767994)
Still have Lowell, Shoppach, and a starting pitcher(s) to trade

I can see the GMs lining up right now.
   127. 1k5v3L Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:34 PM (#1767999)
One nice thing is that with Lowell around we could use Marte as Trot's platoon partner in right, while Lowell plays 3rd.

Guys, Marte can't play RF. I doubt he can even play LF, even though he might pull it off at Fenway. The guy's best position is 3B, maybe 1b if you really twisted his arm.

The guy is not the next Miguel Cabrera defensively, let's leave it at that. Even though he should be average at 3B, maybe better eventually. Let's not make him into a superman.
   128. jordan Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:35 PM (#1768002)
I doubt the Sox would lose an extra year that they have Marte under control just to platoon him with Trot. I see both Marte and Pedroia (at short) starting the year in AAA unless they convince management to start them in the majors based on their performance in spring training.

I think both Marte and Perdroia could be in the starting lineup by June if they perform well in AAA.
   129. 1k5v3L Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:36 PM (#1768007)
I can see the GMs lining up right now.

Well, Omar will line up for anything, and you figure Bowden wants to get reamed in another trade too.

But no one will take Lowell unless the Sox eat at least 50% (more likely, 75%) of his salary to boot.

And The Shoppach, The Shoppach? He couldn't even get the Padres interested and they were desperate.

Anyhow, isn't Shoppach the backup catcher now, with Belli gone?
   130. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:37 PM (#1768012)
nomar's days at shortstop appear to be numbered.

If that number is at least 120, the Red Sox should consider it.
   131. Joel W Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:38 PM (#1768014)
Levski,

Kevin Millar played RF for the Red Sox over the past 3 years. And it probably made sense on those days. Trot Nixon can't hit lefties. Kevin Millar Levski, Kevin MIllar.
   132. _ Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:42 PM (#1768027)
People were right when they said that no general manager is better than Schuerholz.
   133. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:45 PM (#1768040)
The Braves are trying to ensure parity in the NL East it seems

At this point, I would say the division is the Mets to lose. The Marlins and Braves have slipped, the Nats have not improved, and the Phillies are only marginally better, if that.
   134. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:47 PM (#1768043)
At this point, I would say the division is the Mets to lose.

At this point, I would say the division is the Braves to lose until they actually do lose one.
   135. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:51 PM (#1768051)
People were right when they said that no general manager is better than Schuerholz.

My favorite part of all this is how the Sox weren't even really shopping Renteria. It was basically "You're willing to give us what for him? Now that you mention it, he is available!!". A classic idiotic panic move by JS. One that will tarnish his legacy in my opinion.
   136. The Ghost is getting a Woody Posted: December 08, 2005 at 07:58 PM (#1768061)
But what are the Sox going to do with Pedroia if they have a 2b (Bacani) they have to keep in AAA?

Never worry about having too many players ready to come up to the bigs. They are like gold if you need to make a midseason trade for a stretch run, and injuries can make a blocked prospect a MLB regular in the time it takes to blow out a knee.
   137. Dr. Vaux Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:02 PM (#1768068)
How many times has the division been the Mets' to lose, only to see them do just that, anyway?

1985, probably. 1987. 1989. 1990. 1991, probably. 1992, probably. That's a pretty bad run, there.

The NL East is the Braves' division until they lose it, these days, and I just don't see it happening. Bobby Cox was on MLB radio yesterday, and he sounded as confident as I've ever heard anybody sound about anything. He doesn't think the Braves will win the division again, he knows that they will. An exact quote from the interview: "Whatever happens, we'll be just as good as we were [last year], if not better." And so they will.

This particular trade may not be that bad, because Renteria for $6 million is much, much more valuable than Furcal at $9-10 million; they're both league-average hitters playing SS, which is a fine commodity. I have the impression that Furcal's better defensively, but Renteria comes cheaper with the Sox picking up half the tab, and I guess he's a better "character" guy, which the Braves put a lot of stock in. When other clubs don't like a prospect, as the Braves clearly didn't like Marte, or when they put stock in "character," I question it if I think I know better, but the Braves have earned the right not to be questioned. I'm at the point where I assume they know, and it's incumbant upon me to discover just what it is they know. Andy Marte will not be a superstar player. I don't know how they know that, but they know it, and it is the case.
   138. Joel W Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:10 PM (#1768086)
It isn't really an indictment of the Braves to think that the Mets are the favorites this year.

1) If we are to believe the JC Bradbury study, then losing Mazzonne is worth about 8 wins per year. It's also why every year we looked up and saw the Braves better than they were.
2) The Mets underperformed their W3 pythag last year.
3) Beltran underperformed.
4) Delgado good, 2005 Mets 1b bad.
5) Bill Wagner, not 43 million good, but good.

You know, the 49ers and Cowboys were really good, until they weren't. The Red Sox couldn't win a WS until they did, and nobody can take the Braves, until they do. The Mets are just better.
   139. Dr. Vaux Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:18 PM (#1768110)
I agree with all of that reasoning, Joel. In fact, it's iron-clad. But I'll believe it when I see it. (Hmmm... Am I sounding a bit like Carl Everett here?)

Actually, now that I check out Renteria's numbers, he's been below-average both offensively and defensively for a couple of years, and he's clearly on the decline. On the other hand, that's just the type of player the Braves get their hands on and make good again.

Mazzone being gone is a variable that hasn't existed before, so I grant that the Braves are more likely to collapse now than they've been for the past few years. The combination of the Braves dominance, though, along with the prospect of the Mets being the team with a chance to knock them off, just doesn't compute for me at this point... the Mets blow up after big off-seasons like this one; it's almost as big of a lock as the Braves winning. Of course, that bit of conventional wisdom has to go eventually, too.
   140. Angel (Pagan) of Harlem Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:18 PM (#1768112)
Pedroia was a shortstop in college and the Red Sox made him a second baseman. If they thought he were a shortstop, they would have let him play there. I know they had Hanley, but they would have let Pedroia play short a little bit to give him more value and versatility if they thought he could do it in the big leagues.

Since he has played second base almost exclusively, this leads me to believe that he will not be their starting shortstop in 2006.
   141. Dr. Vaux Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:19 PM (#1768116)
And I still think Marte won't be a superstar, because the Braves' organizational knowledge of those things has nothing to do with Mazzone.
   142. chris p Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:20 PM (#1768123)
I'm pretty sure "Petunia" is the creation of a Mets chatterer, who was making fun of kevin at the time.

i think OFF first used it.
   143. Sean McNally Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:28 PM (#1768152)
His **** name is not **** Petunia! That's a stupid **** thing a Yankee Chatterer said! It's Pedroia!

Yankees chatter, Mets chatter, whatever.

You would think people could remember a sure fire HOFer's name. Geez.

I'm pretty sure "Petunia" is the creation of a Mets chatterer, who was making fun of kevin at the time.


When Met fans discuss the Greatest Prospect in Baseball History. Ever. Dustin is petunia...

Yankee fans, led by SG and myself by the way, refuse to acknowledge that a grown man can be called "Dustin" and refer to him as "Justin Peoria."
   144. chris p Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:30 PM (#1768155)
Yankee fans, led by SG and myself by the way, refuse to acknowledge that a grown man can be called "Dustin" and refer to him as "Justin Peoria."

you guys are funny™
   145. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:31 PM (#1768159)
Yankee fans, led by SG and myself by the way, refuse to acknowledge that a grown man can be called "Dustin" and refer to him as "Justin Peoria."

How is "Justin" more of a name for a 'grown man' than "Dustin"? If anything, it's less.
   146. Elton Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:32 PM (#1768163)
According to ESPN.com:

The move left Boston without a shortstop, but Red Sox senior adviser Bill Lajoie denied a much-rumored deal that would wheel Marte to the Tampa Bay Devil Rays for Julio Lugo. Lajoie said he expected to see Marte play for the Red Sox this year, putting him in the outfield or first base if it's necessary to get his bat in the lineup.

"We want to keep that player. ... He's ready to have a good year," said Lajoie, one of four Boston executives at the winter meetings in the absence of a general manager. "He would be one of the five players you would want to start a ballclub with."
   147. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:33 PM (#1768168)
Since nobody seems to have mentioned it upthread, the mysterious #3 on the Braves' 3B depth chart is probably Kelly Johnson, who actually came up through the minors as a SS.

The Pirates just traded Mackowiak and released Wigginton, also picking up an extra lefty in Marte. I think we're looking at a Boston trade of Marte or Youkilis for Craig Wilson and John Grabow; there were rumors of that sort in the BCT a few days ago.
   148. SABRJoe Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:34 PM (#1768169)
I grew up with David Bacani, playing with him in Pony and against him in high school. Great kid (awesome family), played way over his head at Fullerton just to get drafted....sorry to say, he will never see any Major League playing time.

But he will go down as the greatest minor league player ever, if not the shortest.
   149. Nasty Nate Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:35 PM (#1768174)
I 100% prefer Justin Peoria to that other nickname which i will not mention.
   150. JPWF13 Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:38 PM (#1768181)
I'm at the point where I assume they know, and it's incumbant upon me to discover just what it is they know. Andy Marte will not be a superstar player. I don't know how they know that, but they know it, and it is the case.

Just once I want to see the Braves blow one of these... actually I think Schmidt (when healthy/ not overworked) turne dout a lot better than they thought he'd be...

No one's perfect, I'll be suprised if Marte is NOT more valuable than Renteria over the next 3-5 years. It's not that I think Marte's likely to be a superstar- but i think he'll be good, and Renteria's Ks have gone from 54 to 78 to 100, his power has gone down and his steals have gone 34-17-9 and his errors spiked last year. This may be the spoilsport Met fan in me, but Renteria 2003-2005 looks a bit like Alomar 2001-2003 or Fregosi 1970-72...
   151. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:39 PM (#1768182)
I think we're looking at a Boston trade of Marte or Youkilis for Craig Wilson and John Grabow; there were rumors of that sort in the BCT a few days ago.

Youks, fine. Marte? No way.
   152. bunyon Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:41 PM (#1768188)
I see this as a sign that 2006 is Cox and JS's last year. This move only makes sense in a win-now sort of way. I'm not saying it will be an effective win-now strategy, just that is the only way I work my head around it. they don't want too many kids playing in 2006. Cox, Scherholtz and Smoltz have one last go and then all head off to the sunset together.
   153. Sean McNally Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:44 PM (#1768197)
you guys are funny™


We™ try™ hard™ to™ impress™ you™, chris™.
   154. Honkie Kong Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:45 PM (#1768201)
the #3 on the depth chart is probably van Pope. He shouldn't be though!
   155. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:45 PM (#1768203)
6. Trot/??? RF

Maybe this is just Yankee fan snobbery, but why is everyone so convinced the Sox are out there looking for some lefty mashing platoon partner for Nixon? The last 4 years (2002-05) he's gotten about 80% of his ABs aganist RHP and 20% against LHP. I don't know how that breaks down exactly aganist the percentages of RHP/LHP league-wise, but have the Sox employed someone in recent memory for the express purpose of spelling Nixon vs. the lefties? Am I forgotting someone obvious here? Kapler? Millar?
   156. Biff, highly-regarded young guy Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:47 PM (#1768206)
have the Sox employed someone in recent memory for the express purpose of spelling Nixon vs. the lefties? Am I forgotting someone obvious here? Kapler? Millar?

Kapler, yes. It was supposed to be Payton's job last year, but I'm pretty sure Tito fouled up that particular situation somehow.
   157. Chris Pummer Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:54 PM (#1768218)
I know we are all supposed to be talking about what a wonderful deal the Sox made, and I agree, but this could really hurt the Sox in the short term. Have people heard what the Sox are supposedly thinking about doing for shortstop? One report had Alex Gonzalez, Royce Clayton, or Pokey Reese.

Alex Cora?
   158. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:56 PM (#1768223)
Kapler, yes.

Huh, look at that, Gabe actually hits lefties pretty well. Showed me
   159. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:57 PM (#1768229)
"I 100% prefer Justin Peoria to that other nickname which i will not mention."

What, Petunia?

"Youks, fine. Marte? No way."

I agree that's skimpy for Marte, but for him, the Pirates would probably substitute Gonzalez for Grabow.

It's not carved in stone, just something I heard and thought I'd pass along.
   160. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:58 PM (#1768231)
Which Alex Gonzalez? Not that it makes a difference.
   161. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 08:59 PM (#1768234)
"But he will go down as the greatest minor league player ever, if not the shortest."

Good, 'cause I think Richard Paz has that one sewn up.
   162. Nasty Nate Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:04 PM (#1768247)
Alex Cora?


Joey Cora? . . Joey Belle? . . Mr. Belvedere? . . Dear John? . . Johny Bench? . . .Ben & Jerry's? . . Jerry Garcia? . . Garciaparra?
NOMAR WILL BE THE SHORTSTOP??


sorry, the Sox flurry of trades have made me dizzy
   163. chris p Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:05 PM (#1768251)
It was supposed to be Payton's job last year, but I'm pretty sure Tito fouled up that particular situation somehow.

tito fouled it up when he continued to start a limping trot nixon, who was completely overmatched at the plate.
   164. Psychedelic Red Pants Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:06 PM (#1768255)
Pedroia was a shortstop in college and the Red Sox made him a second baseman. If they thought he were a shortstop, they would have let him play there. I know they had Hanley, but they would have let Pedroia play short a little bit to give him more value and versatility if they thought he could do it in the big leagues.

Since he has played second base almost exclusively, this leads me to believe that he will not be their starting shortstop in 2006.


Pedroia played SS almost exclusively when not playing for the same team as Hanley Ramirez.
   165. SG Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:10 PM (#1768266)
I 100% prefer Justin Peoria to that other nickname which i will not mention.

Back to the drawing board McNally.
   166. Artie Ziff Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:14 PM (#1768278)
Smart short term move by Atlanta. They did as good as possible replacing Furcal at shorstop. I doubt Marte will be in Boston past this season. I wonder what Boston has planned now.
   167. Raleigh Horn Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:14 PM (#1768279)
Renteria reminds me of Jose Offerman's time with the Sox, including the start of the beer gut. I'll admit, I liked the signing last year, but E-Rent didn't play nearly as well as I hoped.
   168. Raleigh Horn Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:15 PM (#1768280)
Renteria reminds me of Jose Offerman's time with the Sox, including the start of the beer gut. I'll admit, I liked the signing last year, but E-Rent didn't play nearly as well as I hoped.
   169. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:15 PM (#1768284)
The last 4 years (2002-05) he's gotten about 80% of his ABs aganist RHP and 20% against LHP. I don't know how that breaks down exactly aganist the percentages of RHP/LHP league-wise, but have the Sox employed someone in recent memory for the express purpose of spelling Nixon vs. the lefties? Am I forgotting someone obvious here? Kapler? Millar?
Nixon's gotten 20% of his abs against lefties from 02-05. On the Red Sox over that same period, Johnny Damon has had 33% of his at-bats against LHP. It's a difference of 25-30 games a year or so.

In 2004, Gabe Kapler began the year as Nixon's platoon partner. In 2005, Jay Payton began the year in that job. Both, while on the team, took the vast majority of starts against LHP.

In 2003, the Sox used a rotation of Kevin Millar and Damian Jackson in the beginning of the year, but Millar ended up a full-time 1B after Hillenbradn was traded, Ortiz couldn't play the position and Giambi broke. Nixon took a bunch of starts vs. lefties until they acquired Kapler at the end of the summer.
   170. AROM Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:39 PM (#1768323)
Which Alex Gonzalez? Not that it makes a difference.

Any other examples of 2 players having the same name and identical skill sets and positions?

I can think of one, William Wilson, though at least one of those guys solved our confusion with the nickname "Mookie".
   171. Nasty Nate Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:44 PM (#1768344)
Any other examples of 2 players having the same name and identical skill sets and positions?

I can think of one, William Wilson, though at least one of those guys solved our confusion with the nickname "Mookie".


you didnt give us much time to answer.

maybe Bobby Jones.
   172. Angel (Pagan) of Harlem Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:46 PM (#1768352)
"Pedroia played SS almost exclusively when not playing for the same team as Hanley Ramirez."

At Triple-A, when he was separated from Hanley, Pedroia had 42 at-bats as a shortstop and 152 at-bats as a second baseman. 42 is more than I thought he had, but that still isn't alot.
   173. 1k5v3L Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:46 PM (#1768354)
ESPN's Peter Gammons says the Red Sox aren't interested in taking Orlando Cabrera's salary to replace Edgar Renteria.

Maybe it could happen as part of a Manny Ramirez deal, but not separately. Gammons said the Red Sox did ask about Maicer Izturis, who the Angels would be less likely to trade. The Red Sox are probably going to look at Alex Gonzalez (FLA) to fill their shortstop vacancy. Dec. 8 - 3:17 pm et
   174. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:46 PM (#1768357)
Or Greg Harris
   175. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:49 PM (#1768364)
Or Greg Harris

In reference to like-named players, not shortstop options.
   176. Nasty Nate Posted: December 08, 2005 at 09:59 PM (#1768383)
Both Josias Manzanillo's had the same skill set, too.
   177. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 10:07 PM (#1768397)
Both Josias Manzanillo's had the same skill set, too.

Huh? I'm pretty sure that's one guy who just keeps popping up.


If it was a joke, mea culpa.
   178. Nasty Nate Posted: December 08, 2005 at 10:14 PM (#1768411)
just joking.
but manzanillo and Kevin Romine both played for the 91 sox.
   179. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: December 08, 2005 at 10:16 PM (#1768414)
At this point, I would say the division is the Mets to lose. The Marlins and Braves have slipped, the Nats have not improved, and the Phillies are only marginally better, if that.

How exactly have the Braves slipped? Certainly not by trading 50 horrific September at bats by Andy Marte. Sure, they traded a tone of potential, but Marte didn't contribute shite to the 2005 Braves, so losing him can't make them "slip." They lost Furcal and replace him with Furcal-lite. They'll likely get some return to norm from Andruw. to off-set that McCann, Johnson and Langerhans should all play better than they (or Johnny Estrada) did in 2005. Francouer should hold steady of improve a bit. Chipper should see more than 100 games. LaRoche is still on the improvement side of his career.

Pitching will see Sosa return to normal (big adjustment down) but otherwise, it is what it is. The pen doesn't get worse, maybe gets better...
   180. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 10:54 PM (#1768461)
"Any other examples of 2 players having the same name and identical skill sets and positions?"

Brian Giles? OK, maybe not.
   181. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:05 PM (#1768480)
Hmmm... None of the Bob Johnsons match up.
   182. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:08 PM (#1768485)
I wrote this previously, and I will reiterate here so that folks consider who is really making the player personnel decisions in Atlanta: Bobby Cox.

There are many managers and GMs who could have their talent evaluation skills termed as "suspect".

Bobby Cox is not one of them. If you review his history in Toronto and Atlanta you will see a LONG list of young players introduced into the lineup. And the ones who got a chance routinely succeeded. It's one heckuva record.

Cox got a firsthand look at Marte. And when Schuerholz got his input on the trade Cox must have said ok. And no, I don't think John makes these decisions without that input. Not a chance in h*ll.

So folks can wring their hands that the Braves got swindled, hoodwinked, and bamboozled.

Me, I'm giving Bobby the benefit of the doubt.

Schuerholz? He's the admin, contracts, messy paperwork guy. Bobby always hated doing the paperwork............
   183. KJOK Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:21 PM (#1768505)
Renteria is TWO years older than Furcal, so I'm not sure over the hill applies quite yet. His most similar player is Alan Trammell, a borderline hall of famer.

Marte MAY turn out to be a good 1st baseman/3rd baseman eventually, but Renteria is a pretty decent SS now, and the 30 errors are likely an abberation.

With the money Boston is paying, seems like a perfectly sensible deal for the Braves.
   184. I Love LA (OFF) Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:30 PM (#1768521)
If Bobby Cox says Marte is shitte, Marte is shitte.

And the Braves could win 117 games next year.
   185. Voros M. Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:31 PM (#1768524)
If anyone is interested, I'll put 20 bucks on Marte outhitting Renteria next year, as long as Andy gets 250 PA in the big leagues.

Problem is that's a sucker bet. The mere fact of him getting more than 250 at bats indicates a much greater likelihood of him hitting well than not. If he's hitting .180 after 125 at bats, he's going to get sent down and that's all there is to it, Renteria is in a far more permanent situation.
   186. Darren Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:47 PM (#1768555)
The ESPN radio reports I've heard have indicated the deal is for $8 mil. from the Red Sox. That jibes with the articles from yesterday that said the Red Sox had offered $5 mil and the Braves wanted $11 mil, and the two were going to meet in the middle.

According to Steve Phillips, the Rays GM was brokering the 3-way and not letting Boston and Atlanta know exactly what was going on on each side. According to him, that's a no-no. He said Boston and Atlanta decided just to do a straight up deal instead, and that though the Sox are high on Marte, they eventually deal for Lugo.

How about Marte for Sizemore or something like that. The Indians can move Coco to CF and fill a need at 3B. Good for everyone!
   187. Voros M. Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:48 PM (#1768558)
Francouer should hold steady of improve a bit.

I don't know about that. Other than 140 some at bats in the Appalachian league several years ago, Francouer has _never_ hit as well at any level as he did with the Braves last year. Although the recentness and major leagueness of his Braves numbers are more important than his minor league stuff, that doesn't make his minor league stuff un-important.

I would expect significant regression to where he hits a bit like a Rico Brogna. Still useful and useable as a starter with room to become better, but at the moment not one of their better performers.

In other words I expect him to take a couple steps back and then down the road take a couple steps forward from there. Which could of course be wrong, but it's my best guess.
   188. Darren Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:51 PM (#1768565)
Marte does K a lot. MCoA, have you plugged him into your MLE spreadsheet?
   189. Darren Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:53 PM (#1768568)
Voros--

Are you going to be working in baseball (Red Sox GM is open, I hear)? If not, are you going to be publishing projections anywhere?
   190. Sexy Lizard Posted: December 08, 2005 at 11:56 PM (#1768574)
What's up with Bacani's pitching career? I see he's thrown 8 minor league innings over 6 games, which seems like a lot for just garbage time. And his line is 8 innings, 2 hits, 2 walks, 3 Ks, 0 ERs, all in AA or AAA. Any chance he's a conversion project and not just roster filler for Portland or Pawtucket?
   191. Darren Posted: December 09, 2005 at 12:01 AM (#1768583)
Here's the problem:

Boston will pay $8 million of the $26 million Renteria is owed for the next three seasons. In addition, the Red Sox must pay the $3 million buyout if his $11 million option for 2009 is declined.

So the ESPN guys are idiots. Looks like there's a good chance it'll be declined, even if they keep him. Let him keep the $3 mil and you pay him another $10 mil. or something.
   192. Voros M. Posted: December 09, 2005 at 12:06 AM (#1768597)
Are you going to be working in baseball (Red Sox GM is open, I hear)? If not, are you going to be publishing projections anywhere?

Probably will publish projections, soon.

The rest is wait and see, I guess.
   193. Kyle S Posted: December 09, 2005 at 12:16 AM (#1768625)
Voros - of course it's a sucker bet, but without the caveat it's biased the other way. I am willing to accept any major league PAs plus MLEs for all minor league PAs, if that makes you more willing to gamble. (For example, if Marte gets 100 at bats in Boston and 400 at Pawtucket, weight each appropriately, translate the Pawtucket numbers to MLEs, and compare with Renteria's Atlanta line)
   194. tfbg9 Posted: December 09, 2005 at 12:31 AM (#1768653)
Gammo said in a radio interview today that Theo has been involved in all these recent Sox player moves, and that there is still a chance that he'll return as GM.
   195. chris p Posted: December 09, 2005 at 12:50 AM (#1768695)
Gammo said in a radio interview today that Theo has been involved in all these recent Sox player moves, and that there is still a chance that he'll return as GM.

from what i gather from the gammons interview, theo is still working as the gm on double secret status or something, and if you think about it, that's probably what he wants.
   196. Darren Posted: December 09, 2005 at 12:56 AM (#1768704)
Theo in a disguise talking to Hoyer at the GM meetings...

Hoyer: We did it! We landed Andy Marte, Theo!

Theo: Dammit, how many times have I told you not to use my name. Now all these hayseed heard you!

Hoyer: Not even your codename?

Theo: What? Oh yeah, right, my code name.

Hoyer: You hear that hayseeds? We using codenames!!!
   197. Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein Posted: December 09, 2005 at 01:01 AM (#1768716)
His most similar player is Alan Trammell, a borderline hall of famer.

The problem is similarity scores are based on raw numbers and are not adjusted for the league. Age 25-29, Trammell put up OPS+ of 138, 136, 90, 120, and 155. Renteria put up 78, 116, 131, 90, and 91. For his career, Trammell posted a 110 OPS+. Renteria is currently at 95.

Gammo said in a radio interview today that Theo has been involved in all these recent Sox player moves, and that there is still a chance that he'll return as GM.

People have learned to take what Gammon's says with a grain of salt. But regarding Theo, people need to be even more skeptical. Gammons has a huge mancrush on Theo and falls asleep to a poster-size photo of the Golden Boy holding the WS trophy.
   198. Sam M. Posted: December 09, 2005 at 01:11 AM (#1768732)
How exactly have the Braves slipped?

They haven't. Except in losing Leo, which is a pretty big "except." They marginally worse off defensively at SS, and I think they still have a big question mark in the rotation when it comes to Smoltz's arm. But that latter point is not because of any move they've made.

There are two reasons the Braves are so much better than the rest of the NL East. The first is Bobby Cox; that hasn't changed. The second is their middle infield, which during recent years (Furcal/Giles) has been massively better than anyone else in the division except maybe the Phillies, who have had other problems.

I have no doubt at all that Marte is not going to be a great player. If he were going to be one -- if he had even a 25% chance of being one -- Cox and Schuerholz wouldn't have traded him. For that reason alone, I don't think the Red Sox did all that well. And they now have about 13 third basemen (not even counting their starter from last year), and no shortstop. Don't give me Pedroia; even kevin -- who believes in him like Mary Kay LaTourneau believes in Vili Fualaau -- has admitted he doesn't think Pedroia has the arm to play short.

Don't get me wrong; I'd have made the trade if I were the Sox. But it did leave them with a knotty talent distribution issue they now must resolve.
   199. TDF, situational idiot Posted: December 09, 2005 at 01:16 AM (#1768741)
   200. Sam M. Posted: December 09, 2005 at 01:32 AM (#1768781)
They can use either Lowell or Youkilis as a platoon partner at 1st. And the Red Sox system lacks talent at 3B.

If it's Lowell, that is one hell of an expensive platoon player. And if it's Youkilis, Lowell is one hell of an expensive pinch hitter.

And there is still the possibility that either Lowell or Youkilis can still be moved. Heck, Marte can still be moved.

Sure. Which is what I meant when I said they have a talent distribution problem to resolve. That would be how they could resolve it. But how realistic is that? Marte, certainly. But Lowell's contract still sucks, and unlike the Marlins the Sox wouldn't be packaging it with Beckett to get another team to take it. And Youkilis probably wouldn't bring back value the Red Sox can really use; if he could, surely they'd have traded him by now, given how little they've used him.
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