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Thursday, December 08, 2005

ESPN.com - MLB - Red Sox deal Renteria to Braves for Marte

The Braves are trying to ensure parity in the NL East it seems.

Sean McNally Posted: December 08, 2005 at 05:15 PM | 240 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: braves, red sox

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   201. SteveF Posted: December 09, 2005 at 01:36 AM (#1768796)
Pedroia at short over the entirety of a 162 game season is an open question. Some are of the opinion guys like him tend to wear down pretty badly over the course of a long season. We'll see whether that's actually true eventually, I suppose.

Frankly, I'm amused by the Petunia nickname. That will just make it all the sweeter for the Red Sox fans if Pedrioa continues to beat the odds and becomes an adequate major leaguer.

From the interviews I've seen with and about him, the nickname 'Tanner' might be more appropriate, though.

As for the deal, I think it's a good one for the Braves. Renteria at $6m a year is under market value by a good stretch. If you figure Renteria is an $8m a year player, that's $6m worth of value you're getting in exchange for Marte. Discounted by the chance Marte could be a complete bust, having his services during the 4-5 years prior to free agency is probably worth around that. I'd say it's a riskier deal from the Red Sox side, obviously. But when you have the cash, you can take these kinds of risks I guess.
   202. Robert in Manhattan Beach Posted: December 09, 2005 at 01:37 AM (#1768798)
Before today I might have seen your post as reasonable kevin but two things I learned from the Braves:

1) Marte cannot be moved. Absolutely can't be done. Even when you have questions in the outfield and he would out hit every alternative. Even when you have the horrible Adam LaRoche at first who Marte would out hit with his eyes closed. He can't be moved. Not possible.

2) You cannot go into a season with a so-so defensive shortstop who's bat would make up for his defensive problems. It's a recipe for disaster that must be avoided at all costs. If you ever find yourself in that situation you must immediatly trade your best prospect for someone else's overpaid declining veteran. There is no other choice.
   203. chris p Posted: December 09, 2005 at 01:40 AM (#1768806)
If it's Lowell, that is one hell of an expensive platoon player.

well yeah. his contract was part of the price paid to get beckett. the fact that marlins were dumb enough to give him that huge contract should't make a difference on how the red sox use him.
   204. John DiFool2 Posted: December 09, 2005 at 01:42 AM (#1768808)
It may look like a fair trade right now, but these kinds of trades of a "must-have"
veteran for a unproven youngster have a way of turning into lopsided deals like
Broglio for Brock or DeJesus for Sandberg. If I were the Braves I wouldn't have
taken that chance, esp. since they have a young SS already would likely wouldn't
be any worse than the veteran.
   205. Josh Posted: December 09, 2005 at 02:04 AM (#1768832)
The Petunia nick came in the same thread where kevin explained how Pedroia is better than Wright.

Please, please, pleaase, please, please . . . can it die?
   206. Josh Posted: December 09, 2005 at 02:05 AM (#1768834)
"it" /= kevin, btw.
   207. Chris Dial Posted: December 09, 2005 at 02:20 AM (#1768855)
Renteria stinks. $6 mil for that is a terrible deal.
   208. Sam M. Posted: December 09, 2005 at 02:26 AM (#1768866)
Here's the infamous thread. kevin started the Wright/Pedroia nonsense at # 97. It was actually (drumroll please . . . .)

ROB BASE (# 198) who first introduced "Petunia" into the BTF vernacular!
   209. Backlasher Posted: December 09, 2005 at 02:28 AM (#1768871)
turning into lopsided deals like
Broglio for Brock or DeJesus for Sandberg.


Or Nieves for McGriff
Or Luis Rivera for BJ Surhoff

You cannot make a trade because you are scared you are going to get embarrassed. You have to assess the situation and determine if the cost is worth the benefit. Sometimes you are going to be wrong. If you are wrong a lot, your superiors have to determine whether you have the ability to properly analyze the situation.

When the Braves were trading Butler, Jacoby, Dayley, Acker, etc. during the 80s, the question needed to be asked if there were problems with management.

When the Braves trade away the James, Nieves, Rivera, Marquis, Klesko, Belisle, Nied, Wainwright, Schmidt, Perez, etc. its disappointing to Braves fans, in the same way that Mets deals have been disappointing to Sam M. We had been hearing about these players, and we had optimism on what the future would hold. We imagined them performing for our team. But at the end of the day, most all of those trades created net value. Those that didn't still covered a need.

I imagine JS will make some bad moves. Marte could be a HoF for all I know. I wish the Braves would have filled more than one need with his departure. But right now, its not some sure fire epic disaster.

I sure hope that Renteria gives the Braves more than Charles Thomas, Danny Meyer and Juan Cruz gave the A's last year. And I sure don't see people lining up talking about Billy Beane being an idiot.
   210. Kyle S Posted: December 09, 2005 at 02:35 AM (#1768883)
Good list, BL. Don't forget Micah Bowie, Bruce Chen, Bubba Nelson, Jung Bong, Rob Bell, and a host of other crappy pitchers!

Wasn't Nied an expansion draftee, a la Vinny Castilla?

I would argue that Marte is pretty clearly a better prospect than every one you've mentioned except for Klesko and perhaps Schmidt.
   211. Backlasher Posted: December 09, 2005 at 02:49 AM (#1768901)
Wasn't Nied an expansion draftee, a la Vinny Castilla?


Yes. First pick of the expansion draft I think. Vinny went in the 3rd round.

Don't forget Micah Bowie, Bruce Chen, Bubba Nelson, Jung Bong, Rob Bell, and a host of other crappy pitchers!


Like Quevedo. As I mentioned in one thread, Chen was more highly ranked in BA than Marte when dealt. I heard the same laments on Bell and Quevedo when they were dealt.

I don't think anyone hopes that Marte tanks just so JS looks like a genius. I hope he has a great career. I still like Tommy Glavine and Greg Maddux and wish them all the success in the world, except when they are playing the Braves.

But more than that, I hope that Renteria provides the production that the Braves need at SS for the next two or so years.

There are some legitimate reasons to be concerned with Renteria. I think most everyone wanted to have Furcal back for the next couple of years.
   212. Kyle S Posted: December 09, 2005 at 02:55 AM (#1768907)
I hope he has a great career, but for selfish reasons I'd rather him do it as a Devil Ray or an Oriole. Trading a great young player to Boston sticks in my craw.
   213. Voros M. Posted: December 09, 2005 at 03:17 AM (#1768939)
I have no doubt at all that Marte is not going to be a great player. If he were going to be one -- if he had even a 25% chance of being one -- Cox and Schuerholz wouldn't have traded him.

Well they've traded young players who turned out to be very good before: Jason Schmidt and Jermaine Dye. Odalis Perez has been an average MLB starter which has good value.

Schmidt I think qualifies as a star (at least for a short while) and they traded him.
   214. Backlasher Posted: December 09, 2005 at 03:28 AM (#1768962)
Well they've traded young players who turned out to be very good before: Jason Schmidt and Jermaine Dye. Odalis Perez has been an average MLB starter which has good value.



Well, they got back in those deals Michael Tucker, Gary Sheffield, and J.D. Drew. Moreover, Schmidt and Tucker took a little while before they proved to be assets. There is a present value of performance to be taken into consideration.

And considering that the Braves kept adding other garbage like Rob Bell and getting back the likes of Mike Remlinger; I don't think you can fault them with the investments.
   215. JPWF13 Posted: December 09, 2005 at 03:33 AM (#1768971)
But at the end of the day, most all of those trades created net value. Those that didn't still covered a need.

Schueholz/Cox trades sure- but I'm a Met fan, and aside from the Frank Cashen era these types of trades have not only been a net aggregate loss, but the vast majority of them (the Piazza trade excepted) have individually been net losses and the vast majority did not improve Met talent distribution either.

I'm willing to give Cox/Schuerholz every benefit oif the doubt on this trade- they've earned it- but Omar's another kettle of fish- he was with teh Mets before and his trades with Montreal seem to add up to a net loss to me. (I also don't believe the line that he thought Montreal was going to be contracted- I never seriously thought they'd be contracted and no wroiter I took seriously thought so either- Omar's been around even if Bud in a fit of delusion told Omar that the Expos were going to be contracted- I seriously doubt Omar would have been convinced).
   216. chris p Posted: December 09, 2005 at 03:35 AM (#1768980)
Well they've traded young players who turned out to be very good before: Jason Schmidt and Jermaine Dye. Odalis Perez has been an average MLB starter which has good value.

Well, they got back in those deals Michael Tucker, Gary Sheffield, and J.D. Drew. Moreover, Schmidt and Tucker took a little while before they proved to be assets. There is a present value of performance to be taken into consideration.


well, clearly that's a good record, but to say that a guy won't make it *because* the braves FO was willing to trade him i ssilly.
   217. Kyle S Posted: December 09, 2005 at 03:38 AM (#1768986)
I am at peace with this deal in the sense that I don't think Marte is going to become Miguel Cabrera Lite any day now, something I've been waiting for the last two years. Moreover, Eric Campbell is not a bad 3B prospect in his own right and appears to be a better athlete than Marte (even though he's really far from contributing). I really like Marte, but I understand the rationale for trading him.

What I'm concerned about is what we got in return. Renteria looked really, really bad last year. He's certainly not the same caliber a player as Sheffield, Drew, Tim Hudson, or Denny Neagle were when we got them. I was hoping that Schuerholtz would pull a typically brilliant outside of the box move, like getting Orlando Hudson (whose MLB career averages are very similar to Renteria's when adjusted for park - little more SLG, little less OBP) and moving him to shortstop.

In the past, I've been excited enough about the Sheffields and Hudsons to accept the necessary loss of young talent as the price to acquire them. I just don't feel the same way about Renteria. I really, really hope he proves me wrong.

(I'm still rooting for Danny Meyer and Andy Marte - I would love to see them do well. Just as I root for Glavine and Maddux.)
   218. Phil Coorey is a T-Shirt Salesman Posted: December 09, 2005 at 03:42 AM (#1768990)
I'll be happy with this trade, if we keep Marte and don't trade him for a muppet.
   219. NTNgod Posted: December 09, 2005 at 05:24 AM (#1769129)
Atlanta J-C

"The Braves feel he'll become the shortstop he was in his earlier days," said Red Sox special advisor Bill Lajoie, point man for their GM-less negotiating team in Dallas. "It could have been the field [responsible for some errors]. I'm not saying we have a bad field, but he wasn't used to playing on that surface.... He was laying back on the ball, and there was caution throwing it. I don't know why it happened, but it did."

Some observers said Renteria looked heavier, slower and suddenly much older last season, but the Braves are confident he will revert to his pre-Boston form.

"We think getting back to the National League, in our environment in Atlanta, under Bobby Cox's guidance, this guy will flourish," Schuerholz said. "All of our major league scouts who have seen him play pretty much reached the same [conclusion] — get him back in the National League, get him in a warm climate, in our environment, and he'll flourish."
   220. Squash Posted: December 09, 2005 at 06:51 AM (#1769210)
Some observers said Renteria looked heavier, slower and suddenly much older last season,

My oh my.
   221. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: December 09, 2005 at 01:55 PM (#1769432)
ANybody hear that Marte will need TJ surgery to repair his elbow and be down for the season?

I think Schulerholtz pulled another one again.
   222. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: December 09, 2005 at 02:05 PM (#1769435)
I keeep hearing about "bringing back a former Red Sox SS"...

Which means it's either Nomar, O-Cab, or Pokey.

To tell you the truth I could live with the latter 2, but I'd actually be most happy with O-Cab dspite him being the most expensive.

I mean, Nomar is no longer a SS. He cannot field that position anymore. Pokey and O-Cab are similar plfayers... great fielding players that canot hit. Put them in the 9th hole and we shoudln't be that screwed. Pokey is chepaer but O-Cab donesn't get injured.

Hey, Mike Lowell for Orlando Cabrera! That saves the Angels like 10 million dollars! *ducks*

Anyhoo...
3B Loretta
SS O-Cab
2B Graffanino
1B Youkilis/Freedom platooon.
Cora/Macahado Utility men
Marte recovering from injury (the TJ)
Pedoria the first call up from AAA

C'mon guys, you know you wan tto.

The lineup:
1B Youkilis
3B Loretta
DH Papi
LF Manny
C Varitek
RF Nixon
2B Graffanino
CF ?
SS O-Cab

Bring us a decent CF...

This lineup SHOULD compete if the CF isn't too krappy and Nixon improves to an average RF fielder once he recovers from the injury.
   223. sublime Posted: December 09, 2005 at 04:33 PM (#1769618)
Being overlooked in all of this is the 3 million buyout the sox save on the end of the deal (2009). That brings the ransom down to 8 million, which when you think about it is peanuts if marte is as good he should be. 5-6 years of control of this guy is easily worth 8 million bucks.
   224. Darren Posted: December 09, 2005 at 04:45 PM (#1769636)
There's no real basis for saying Nomar can't play SS. He played it badly in 04 when hurt. He didn't play it last year after his injury (which he did while running the bases, not fielding). I see no reason to think that someone as athletic as him cannot play SS still. Offer him 1 year, $8 mil, and promise not to offer arb. It's more than others are offering and it will allow him to reestablish himself as a SS. Also, blame all the bad blood on Theo! That jerk!
   225. Darren Posted: December 09, 2005 at 04:46 PM (#1769642)
Mike Lowell to the Twins. Pay half his salary and get back Baker and/or Ford.
   226. Kyle S Posted: December 09, 2005 at 04:47 PM (#1769644)
sublime - the Sox are promising to pay the buyout if the Braves don't want to exercise the option.
   227. djy04 Posted: December 09, 2005 at 04:54 PM (#1769660)
Just heard Schuerholz on WEEI, he said the Atlanta scouts are still very high on Renteria, he said he expects Marte to be a 25 HR 100 RBI guy, and he pretty much said the Dodgers were crazy to give Furcal the money they gave him, .... that's what he said anyway.
   228. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: December 09, 2005 at 04:57 PM (#1769668)
Ford? I think he played over his head in '04. I'd rather have Cuddyer and use him as a supersub.
   229. 50PoundHead Posted: December 09, 2005 at 04:57 PM (#1769669)
Braves' fan here. I generally like, but not love, the trade. Marte appears to have the pedigree and I hope he does well wherever he ends up. Losing a guy of this caliber stings.

But (as Pee Wee Herman said in his clasic line to Simone inside the giant dinosaur head at the dinosaur park while Simone's giant, angry, jealous boyfriend stood outside the door in the grossly underrated cinematic masterpiece and directorial debut for Tim Burton "Pee Wee's Big Adventure", "Everyone's got a big but."), the Braves did have a hole at SS and Renteria does fill that hole, at least in the short term. And the Red Sox tossing in $11 with six zeroes behind it makes the price reasonable.

I fall more to the traditionalist side of the column and I really am having a hard time understanding where all the Wilson Betemit love is coming from. A once great prospect who I believe was mishandled by the Braves' PD staff in one of their rare miscuses, he has not been a full-time SS since 2001 at AA Greenville. Further, everyone looks at his 2005 performance as the benchmark for his future performance. I think this would have to be triangulated against his 2002-2004 MLEs to get a more accurate picture of what he might do.

Remember folks, this is the same Betemit who the Braves tried to peddle in spring training because he was out of options and could nary find a taker. Thankfully, they found a taker for Nick Green.

And this is coming from a guy who likes Betemit. One doesn't find athletic ability like his just anywhere.

As someone posted earlier, don't underestimate the hand of Bobby Cox in this. Remember who Bobby's SS was when the run started in 1991. One Mr. Rafael Belliard. Bobby has always placed a premium on solid and consistent play at that position and that position is probably the most important in the IF in terms of machinations within the game.

Major league baseball isn't a beer league. Teams just can't throw anyone anywhere and expect to compete consistently. And maybe Betemit could have handled the position physically, but 5 mental errors into the first week, Roger McDowell would have to give Bobby Cox a hotfoot just to cheer him up.

Bobby is way old school. So old school it's probably a one-room school house. But I will never question his understanding of the game and his player evaluation ability. He isn't always right. But he's right a lot more than he is wrong.

Good luck Red Sox fans, whatever you decide to do with Marte. He is an exciting new face.
   230. Darren Posted: December 09, 2005 at 05:06 PM (#1769687)
Here's how the money breaks down to me. Renteria projects to be worth about 3.5 wins/year or $7 mil/year for the Sox, once you factor in aging. That means of the $29 mil they owe him, about $8 mil is dead money. That means you're paying the remaining $3 mil for Marte, which is a very good value.

It might more like 4 wins/year, which would mean $5 mil in dead money and $6 mil for Marte. When you consider what a top draft pick gets, then consider that those picks are not already playing well in AAA, that's still a fine value.

Not a freakin'-A trade, but a maybe a 'hey, how about that.'

Ford? I think he played over his head in '04.

I think he played below his feet last year. ZiPS has him at 360/410 or so next year and he's cheap. I had really high hopes for Cuddyer at one point but he's never really come around. Maybe it's because he's been jerked around a bit, but it's more likely that he's just mediocre.
   231. Kevin Sweet Child Romine (aco) Posted: December 09, 2005 at 05:26 PM (#1769729)
Cuddyer seems to be a mediocre hitter in the majors after raking in the minors, but his versatility makes him pretty valuable. Plus, he'll only be 27 next year, so he could still make a leap offensively and put up some numbers closer to what he did in the minors. I like Lew, but he's a couple years older than Cuddyer and never put up the kind of minor league numbers Cuddyer did.

If the Sox get any of these guys from MN for Lowell, I'll be pleased.
   232. 50PoundHead Posted: December 09, 2005 at 05:37 PM (#1769754)
I live in Minnesota and see a lot of Cuddyer. It's hard to play baseball when the manager's hands are around your throat. Cuddyer's not choking. Gardy has him on such a short leash that it's choking off Cuddyer's talent.

There isn't a fastball that Cuddyer can't catch up to. Tremendous fastball hitter. Has had problems with the glove at 3B. Got way to bulky in 2004 and slimmed down for 2005. Has played 1B, 2B, and RF as well as 3B.

I don't know who end ups with him, but I think he still has a chance to be a good player. Supersub may be his role, but he could still end up a regular somewhere.

Gardy gets my vote for "Manager Most Likely to Have a Seance With Gene Mauch." At least the acquisition of Castillo will relegate Nick Punto to his rightly utility spot. No, wait. Punto could end up starting at either 3B or SS, but to do that he'd have to beat out Luis Rodriguez or Terry Tiffie.
   233. IronChef Chris Wok Posted: December 09, 2005 at 05:46 PM (#1769781)
Mike Lowell to the Twins. Pay half his salary and get back Baker and/or Ford.

Terry Ryan is not stupid.
   234. jordan Posted: December 09, 2005 at 05:52 PM (#1769797)
Sublime, the $3 million buyout is included in the $11 million that the Sox are paying based on my understanding. The $11 million paid to Atlanta becomes $8 million paid if Renteria's option for 2009 is exercised.
   235. jordan Posted: December 09, 2005 at 05:56 PM (#1769812)
I just thought about it and I guess it's possible that if Renteria's option for 2009 is exercised, the Sox would still have to pay $3 million of Renteria's salary for 2009.
   236. Darren Posted: December 09, 2005 at 07:11 PM (#1769983)
They reportedly like Lowell. $4.5 mil is around his value. It wouldn't be a horrible trade. 50poundhead is convincing me that Cuddyer might be worthwhile. Is he arb eligible?
   237. sublime Posted: December 09, 2005 at 07:37 PM (#1770030)
Sublime, the $3 million buyout is included in the $11 million that the Sox are paying based on my understanding. The $11 million paid to Atlanta becomes $8 million paid if Renteria's option for 2009 is exercised.


i suppose that makes more sense.
   238. Darren Posted: December 11, 2005 at 04:51 AM (#1771934)
Haven't seen this mentioned WRT to Marte yet, but BA loves his defense. This is from their trade analysis:

He was rated the best defensive third baseman in the Triple-A International League in 2005, the fourth consecutive year he won such an honor in his league in Baseball America's annual survey of minor league managers.
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