Who else thought this was about Jose?

I may be the only one, but i would welcome a Cubs move to Florida. I enjoy going to ST games, but I would enjoy it more seeing a team I care about.

Meanwhile, Arizona leaders are working to keep the most popular team in the Cactus League from leaving with a new spring training facility.

Bleach to eradicate the odor of cat piss at that dump of a stadium in Mesa would have been a nice overture.

Who else thought this was about Jose?

I hoped it was about him wanting to be the GM or something.

Can't be much worse than Kevin Gregg. . .

Who else thought this was about Jose?

*raises hand*

Me too.

Arizona has been poaching Florida ST teams for years. What's good for the goose is #### you Arizona.

That this is not about Jose is a grave disappointment. Who the hell cares about Mesa, Arizona other than the poor souls who live there?

Hey, if the Cubs think routinely having multi-hour bus rides during spring training will help them win a World Series, good for them. Within the next few years half or more of the teams will play spring training in the Phoenix area - fewer rainouts, short trips to away games, and good attendance. If the Cubs think they can get better attendance in the grapefruit league and enough other amenities to make up for the long travel times and rainouts, good for them. It'll just be another mistake in a century or so full of mistakes.

This is simply pressure on the part of the Cubs to get a better deal out of Mesa.

This is simply pressure on the part of the Cubs to get a better deal out of Mesa.

Exactly. Because of the local economy, threatening to move to another community in the Phoenix area isn't as much leverage as it used to be, so now they are posturing with Florida.

Yeah, I'd be surprised if the Cubs move to Florida. Do they seriously think they can horn in on the Red Sox and Yankees and Cards fanshare?

"The move to Florida is happening -- count on it," Rangers shortstop Omar Vizquel said. "Mesa always blows it in the end."

Arizona has been poaching Florida ST teams for years. What's good for the goose is #### you Arizona.

Good for florida. You idiots go dump public money into these economic black holes.

You idiots go dump public money into these economic black holes.

Actually, spring training brings millions of dollars per year in revenue from out of state tourists for Arizona and Florida every year. Add in all the money the teams spend on employees for their round the year training, and it is far from an economic black hole. It's significantly different than money spent for regular stadiums in terms of being a net plus for the local communities. That's not to say that it's necessarily the best use of public moneys, but it's definitely not an "economic black hole".

fewer rainouts, short trips to away games, and good attendance. If the Cubs think they can get better attendance in the grapefruit league and enough other amenities to make up for the long travel times and rainouts, good for them. It'll just be another mistake in a century or so full of mistakes.

It hardly ever rains in Florida in March. That's why we have so many wildfires in the spring. Yes, it rains more than Phoenix, but rainouts in the grapefruit league are a rare occurrence.

As for multi-hour bus rides, that's what it takes to get from Chandler to Peoria, no?

As for multi-hour bus rides, that's what it takes to get from Chandler to Peoria, no?

No, especially if they aren't driving during rush hour. The only long drives (and not long compared to some of the Florida drives) were for teams that played in Tucson, but they are moving to the Phoenix area. Basically, the long drives in the Cactus league are comparable to the short ones in the Grapefruit league - and it's routine for teams to have a number of very short drives to other stadiums here. Makes it more convenient for the teams AND the fans.

teams that played in Tucson, but they are moving to the Phoenix area.

Really? Didn't Tucson build the White Sox a brand new facility not too long ago? Talk about your economic black holes.

The White Sox are going to be sharing a large facility with the Dodgers. The Dbacks are apparently moving to a new faciity that is being built. IIRC, there are going to be various tournaments played in the Tucson facility, as well as a Japanese team training there in the offseason.

No, especially if they aren't driving during rush hour. The only long drives (and not long compared to some of the Florida drives) were for teams that played in Tucson, but they are moving to the Phoenix area. Basically, the long drives in the Cactus league are comparable to the short ones in the Grapefruit league - and it's routine for teams to have a number of very short drives to other stadiums here. Makes it more convenient for the teams AND the fans.

Isn't this because much of Arizona is flatly uninhabitable, whereas most of Florida is miserable, but can support human life?

Well, if you call what they have there "life".

It's more that over a period of years the teams have decided that it's advantageous to be based close to each other, and the largest metropolitan area has obliged by building stadiums convenient to each other. If it was done like it is in Florida, there would still be a team based in Yuma, some in Tucson, Flagstaff etc. Instead almost all teams now are in Maricopa county, which is better for actually, you know, helping players get ready for the regular season, since they don't have to spend a large chunk of their day on a bus.

Actually, spring training brings millions of dollars per year in revenue from out of state tourists for Arizona and Florida every year.

Not for Mesa, these tourists primarily stay in Phoeniz, Scottsdale and Tempe. And if ST disappeared, shockingly, tourists would still come to Arizona in february and stay in the same rooms and in similar numbers, because Arizona is an exceedingly nice place to vacation in February. Room rates may decline slightly, but so will taxes.

Add in all the money the teams spend on employees for their round the year training, and it is far from an economic black hole. It's significantly different than money spent for regular stadiums in terms of being a net plus for the local communities. That's not to say that it's necessarily the best use of public moneys, but it's definitely not an "economic black hole".

Sure there are employees training year round at the facilities, and a couple of minimum wagers to cut the grass, touch up paint and walk the grounds with a badge and walkie talkie. And "black hole" means it's so far from the best use of public monies that it's a horrible investment. Without public subsidy these properties might be developed as manufacturing, retail, or office parks. They'd have well compensated employees working year round actually producing economic output, whether goods, or services, and spending their lunch, dinner monies in Mesa. And instead of having the inhabitants of Mesa kick in $3M a year or so, a true economic asset like a business park will pay millions in taxes, a huge swing for Mesa's budget and probably lowering the locals tax rate, and making it an even more attractive place to live and work.

I'm a baseball fan, and a spring training fan. I want the Cubs to stay just as I wanted the Tucson teams to move back up, it's going to make my spring training and fall league game experiences that much better. But I will never demand that Mesa taxpayers (or any others) foot the bill for my favorite entertainment, esp. when these enterprises are massively well funded, and owned, operated, and staffed by millionaires and billionaires.

Every economic study every done on public subsidies of sports stadiums are split down the middle. Those done by academic economists are almost unanimous in saying it's a bad idea. Those done by whore economists at consulting groups employed by teams/cities, surprise, unanimously say it's a good idea.


BTW: The Salt River tribe is building the new Diamondbacks spring training facility a mile from my house, right next to their beautiful new casino/hotel complex. I was very excited about it because not only will this privately funded staduim mean I get to watch a dozen Diamondback spring training games a year with ultra convenience, but it also means more drunken midwesterners showing up to hand me money at the poker tables. But when I learned the tribe was seeking subsidies, I turned against it and I'll put my monies where my mouth is if there is an opportunity to fight the funding.

Your points on proximity can't be emphasized enough. Maricopa County has great natural advantages, land is relatively cheap, it's very dry leading to higher utilization and fewer rain-outs, and there are great night time entertainment options for team employees and fans. But the building critical mass of proximate teams saves large amounts of travel time, enables execs and fans to see more games, players to practice more. It's a huge competitive advantage the Valley of the Sun should be profiting from, instead of subsidizing.

Do they seriously think they can horn in on the Red Sox and Yankees and Cards fanshare?

Hmmm? I'd like for the Cubs to stay in Arizona, but if they moved to Florida, there'd be no issue with fans. The Cubs are the most popular team in the country.