Fan, husband defend heckling

Was it the lewd behavior in "Fast Times at Ridgemont High" or maybe the udder stoopidity of "Look Who's Talking Too"?...I don't know, but why she needs defending is beyond meeee...oh, sorry.

He was ready to take that bullet....until some actually fired one at him.

Mui bueno, senor Bueno.

She is a MUCH bigger target than he is, so ducking may not have mattered....

This is the classic "he said, she said". TR Sullivan wrote a column yesterday, where he went down and sat in the section that this occurred, talked to the security guard who was there the night before, and was told that there was, indeed, a lot of cursing and slurs used.

This boils down easily, IMHO:
1) If Bueno expects us to believe that the players reacted to innocent, every day comments, then he's a loon, and he expects us to be loons, also. These guys hear this crap all day, every day. Something had to be over the line.
2) Francisco should be out for the year, and part of next. Brocail, out for the year. Almanzar, who doesn't get much play, but can be seen punching someone in the head, should be out for the year. This kills my team's (admittedly weak) playoff chances, but that's the price you pay.
3) Mrs. Bueno should get hospital bills, pain and suffering, and maybe a little hit to Frankie for punitive damages. I'm thinking $30,000 should cover the whole ball of wax. Instead, they will sue for millions, which is patently ridiculous.
4) Let the courts decide what to do with Frankie.

What kind of slurs do you think were hurled at Brocail to cause him to try to get at Bueno?

There's no telling. I mean, it could be anything. Perhaps he's half-Jewish, Bueno knows this, and he yelled something about the Holocaust being overblown. Or perhaps he has a child with an affliction, and Bueno made fun of that affliction. This is, of course, random speculation.

The point is, common sense (and yes, there was an obvious lack of common sense amongst all involved that night) tells us that Brocail didn't just whip around and go for Bueno because Bueno told him he was crap. I'll only believe that when if someone has an audio recording, and can prove it. I don't consider this sticking my head in the sand. I consider it an application of the basic sense that I was born with. You might disagree, and you would be completely justified.

TR Sullivan wrote a column yesterday, where he went down and sat in the section that this occurred, talked to the security guard who was there the night before, and was told that there was, indeed, a lot of cursing and slurs used.

If it's the same column I read, I seem to recall "an unidentified source" cited who stated that the "fans in the section" mocked Brocail's weight, "may have made a derogatory remark about his mother" and that there may or may not have been a racial slur uttered, as well.

I don't recall any of it as being from a security guard, nor particularly enlightening.

Of course, I could be thinking of a different column, or could be mis-remembering the details.

On to Google!

That came out sounding like I don't think you have basic sense. I just mean that if your gut tells you something different, then you're as justified as I am.

If it's the same column I read, I seem to recall "an unidentified source" cited who stated that the "fans in the section" mocked Brocail's weight, "may have made a derogatory remark about his mother" and that there may or may not have been a racial slur uttered, as well.

I didn't read the article, but TR was on the radio here, and made that part of the claim there. I don't think you can Google the article yet. The S-T usually waits 3 or 4 days to post articles from the newspaper online.

The point is, common sense (and yes, there was an obvious lack of common sense amongst all involved that night) tells us that Brocail didn't just whip around and go for Bueno because Bueno told him he was crap. I'll only believe that when if someone has an audio recording, and can prove it. I don't consider this sticking my head in the sand. I consider it an application of the basic sense that I was born with.

I agree with this. Either Bueno said something really vile and hurtful, or Brocail suddenly went stark raving insane. Which is the most likely?

Not that it justifies Brocail's or Francisco's response, of course. The only reasonable course of action a player can ever follow when being heckled is to ignore it, no matter how disgusting the heckler. Brocail and Francisco obviously didn't behave reasonably. But it strains credulity to assume that they weren't provoked in some kind of really nasty manner.

Heckling in general is pretty moronic. Incidents like this are obviously the rare exception, but their rarity doesn't vindicate "clean" heckling, either. As Mr. Gump would say, stupid is as stupid does.

I saw the Buenos, husband and wife on TV last night. He sort of looks like Mongomery Clift from "A Place in the Sun," and she like Shelly Winters circa "Wild in the Streets." Weird.

From the Oakland Tribune:

It's nothing new for Eric Chavez to hear racial slurs. He's heard them in Boston and Arlington and Baltimore and all over the country.

But he's never come close to confronting a fan or going after a fan in the stands. Why?

"Common sense," said Chavez, the longest-tenured Oakland Athletics player who is signed through the 2010 season. "There's racial slurs that are said to me. It's funny to me because I don't speak Spanish."

...

"Boston is the worst place ever," the third baseman said. "It's worse than New York. It doesn't come close. That's the place where I get hammered the most. The fans are real close to you. If I was to lose it in a place, that would be the place. They can literally reach up and touch you."

He kinda struck me as a sleazy-looking character.

However, I might've been swayed by the fact that his name was underneath his head, and to me, it either seemed like a name for a frat boy or a pornstar.

Here's the way I'm thinking about this -- The Cubs fans set off the Dodgers bullpen by stealing the guy's hat. I would have to say the comments would have to be pretty damn bad for them to set off only the second major bullpen attack in (recent?) history -- at least as bad as reaching over and stealing a guy's hat.

But I wouldn't put it past a guy named Craig Bueno, that's all I'm saying.

It's nothing new for Eric Chavez to hear racial slurs. He's heard them in Boston and Arlington and Baltimore and all over the country.

But he's never come close to confronting a fan or going after a fan in the stands. Why?

"Common sense," said Chavez, the longest-tenured Oakland Athletics player who is signed through the 2010 season. "There's racial slurs that are said to me. It's funny to me because I don't speak Spanish."

I'm not sure what your intention is posting this. Is it to say that racial slurs are heard everywhere, so Brocail/Francisco should be used to them (if indeed they were even used)?

Warning: Potentially offensive language in the next sentence.

A black person can hear \"######\" hundreds of times in his life, but if I'm 20 feet from him, and I scream out "F you, you no good ######!", I would expect, and even somewhat condone, any action that he would take. Just because it's commonplace, doesn't mean it doesn't cut to the bone.

As an internet poster I believe I have the right to heckle as well...I've paid for the privilege at the market rate (ie. zero) So here goes:

Jennifer Bueno is one ugly ugly woman. I'd say she looks like a pig, except I don't want to offend the porcine community. She does have the flat snout though. Oh yes, she also has the requisite rotund body (Rotund means fat in a round way, you know, like a pig). If I were Craig, rather than heckling the Rangers' relievers I'd be heckling the eyesore sitting next to me.

In fact I'd leave town and run far far away from this ugly ugly woman.

Did I mention how ugly Jennifer Bueno is?

Was her maiden name Puerca Fea?

See isn't heckling fun!!!!

a couple of things:

there is no excuse for what francisco did, esp. after viewing the tape. he was several people back from the altercation, and it looks like he just decided to hum a chair at bueno. he wasn't defending himself, nothing.

so, he should def. be suspended for the season and maybe part of next. the other players involved should get supspensions of varying severity, depending on involvement. let MLB sort it out.

francisco should get some sort of monster fine or suspended jail sentence for attacking with a deadly weapon. some of the comments on some of the other threads about it only being a plastic chair, yada yada, are ludicrous. take a chair like that in the face if you don't think it can be a dangerous weapon. he was way out of line.

this, to me, renders moot the whole business of determining what was said. it doesn't matter. the players shouldn't have gone after the fans. case closed.

that said ... i think the buenos are kind of disgusting. it is obvious, painfully obvious, that the lawyers have gotten to them and they have $$$ in their eyes ... bueno has been on tv, in a suit and tie that is obviously brand new, spinning the s--- out of the incident, and the wife has appeared with a giant bandage on her face and the shiners completely untouched by makeup. how many women do you know would let themselves be seen like that? i am a total political liberal and pro-trial lawyer, but this is the kind of thing that drives the neocons nuts. the buenos will sue for hundreds of thousands -- that's what you'll see on fox. the case will prob. be settled in the neighborhood of mid 5 figures -- that won't show up on fox.

a pox on all of them.

I agree with Phredbird--it makes no difference what was said. There is nothing that justifies a violent reaction.

Nothing justifies it, but there are a lot of things that mitigate it.

a pox on all of them

Roger that. The victims in this case goaded and insulted the attackers until the attackers completely lost their self-control.

Everyone involved behaved disgustingly.

Just to be clear on my #14 post, I wasn't justifying a thrown chair. I was speculating on what it could take for players to respond more violently than the last incident.

That, and the need to keep pornstars away from the field of play.

The victims in this case goaded and insulted the attackers

No, no, no, no, no. I have yet to see any indication (eyewitness descriptions, or the pictures, descriptions, and accounts of the game*) that MRS. Buneo in any way participated in the heckling. She is the victim -- which shows why hurtling a chair no matter WHAT Mr. Buneo said is so reckless.




* - which may, of course, be used only with the written consent of Major League Baseball and the Oakland A's . . . .

this, to me, renders moot the whole business of determining what was said. it doesn't matter. the players shouldn't have gone after the fans. case closed.

This is true, with regards to MLB. The suspension that the two of them get should be the same, no matter what was said to goad them on.

However, with regards to the criminal and, especially, the civil cases, what was said is most certainly relevant. If Bueno said, "Well, gentlemen, which one of you fine chaps has decided to take it upon yourselves to lessen your team's chances of winning this particular spirited ballgame?", that's mightily different with regards to mitigation than if he said, "HEY! YOU! Yeah, you, f'in Brocail! I had sex with your dead mother, then spit on your retarded child, and now you're going to go out and BLOW THIS GAME like you BLEW ME last night! Go #### yourself in the ###, you ####-ing dirty, car-bombing Mick!"

MLB doesn't care what he said. A trial judge, and a civil jury most certainly will.

the case will prob. be settled in the neighborhood of mid 5 figures

No chance. This is a six-figure case, easy. The individual defendant (Francisco) is not an American citizen. The corporate defendant (the Rangers) is an out-of-town, out-of-state, entity. The plaintiff's husband is a firefighter, a man who risks his life to keep his community safe. The plaintiff is a stay at home mom. And, the player acted recklessly and endangered a whole crowd of people. Everything -- legitimate or not -- points towards a very, very big jury verdict.

Put all that together, and any defense attorney worth a penny will tell his or her clients they are going to pay a LOT of money. If the Buneos settle for five figures, it'll be conclusive proof they are NOT money-grubbers just out for a quick buck.

MRS. Buneo in any way participated in the heckling. She is the victim -- which shows why hurtling a chair no matter WHAT Mr. Buneo said is so reckless.

Now, Sam, obviously you're a lawyer, and I'm not. But are you honestly telling me that a civil jury will not take what her husband said into account, at least to the point of mitigating Francisco's response by allowing for the fact that he could have been in an extreme emotional state after hearing a comment that set him off?

you bring up an interesting point, shredder. my take is that MLB should -- and prob. will -- ignore the mitigating cicrcumstances when handing out their penalties. it's not that the buenos and others weren't behaving badly, MLB has to protect themselves and make an example of players who do this sort of thing. they're not worried about the legal aspects of the incident. they don't want the public to get a perception of games as being places where brawls are commonplace.
on the other hand, i can see a judge -- if this goes to civil trial -- looking at what was said as a way of allowing a jury to determine damages. if testimony is admitted that shows that the buenos and others were being deliberately provocative, it could certainly curtail their ability to collect damages, even if they have a case ... i can see francisco's lawyers looking for a way for that to happen.
this would explain some of the posturing that's going on right now, esp. with the buenos ... lawyers on both sides are doing some spade work in the court of public opinion prior to getting down to the brass tacks of talking settlement.

Francisco is obviously at fault here -- I don't think that's up for any debate. What amazes me, though, is that the Buneos actually admitted that they got those seats just so they could heckle the guys in the bullpen! That's unbelievable!

I have this picture in my head of what they're like -- loud, obnoxious, the kind of parents whose kids never do anything wrong (even though they're all brats and bullies). Of course, I have no clue what they're really like, and I'm sure if I were on a jury I'd adward them some money, but they still disgust me.

Nothing justifies throwing the chair. Of course.

But the notion that Mr. Bueno said nothing particularly out of line isn't believable. He didn't deserve to be physically attacked, but that doesn't mean he didn't behave like a turd, either.

What Francisco should have done was follow up the chair throw with a spinning heel kick to Bueno's mug, then climbed onto the top of the dugout for the five star frongsplash and the pin. Or he could have tagged in Brocail for the Arabian facebuster and let him get the pin.

And if that didn't work, maybe Buck could have distracted the security personnel long enough for Brocail to use the green mist.

Why does MLB not care to make an example of stupid fans who ruin the enjoyment of those sitting nearby their idiotic taunts? Why is this any less irritating to nearby people than cursing, drinking too much, etc?

RCheli, if they disgust you, why on earth would you award them money?

Ivan -- Um. Because a person physically attacked them, throwing a chair at them. I know a lot of people who I think are complete asses, but if somebody hurt them just because they were an ass, I think they'd deserve to be compensated.

But are you honestly telling me that a civil jury will not take what her husband said into account, at least to the point of mitigating Francisco's response by allowing for the fact that he could have been in an extreme emotional state after hearing a comment that set him off?

Several points. First, if I were representing Mrs. Bueno, I'd do careful deposition work with Francisco. Given that (I believe) he came running from the dugout into the fray -- someone correct me if I'm wrong on that -- I'd sure try to establish that anything he actually heard had been long before the incident (while he was still in the bullpen, earlier in the game). Thus, it could not have triggered a knee-jerk response right at that moment.

Second, I'd try to get him to admit he couldn't identify anything Mr. Bueno actually said. Best of all, if he misattributed something as having set him off that another fan out there actually said.

Third, the plaintiff's lawyer will seek to exclude any testimony about things Bueno said that Francisco didn't hear, as irrelevant to the case. I think he'd have a good chance, which could severely limit any damaging effects that testimony might have on Mrs. Bueno's case. More broadly, they have a decent shot at excluding ALL the heckling, even that which Francisco himself heard, on the ground that his response was legally unjustified and that it's irrelevant to Mrs. Bueno's right to compensation (since she wasn't the heckler).

Do I think the heckling might have an impact, if some or all of it is admitted? Sure. It could well make Mr. Bueno look bad, and the case as a whole less sympathetic. But compared to the factors I mentioned in # 24? Drop in the bucket. This is gonna be a big settlement, IMO. Easily into six figures.

RCheli, if they disgust you, why on earth would you award them money?

Not to answer for RCheli, but because Francisco's actions are even more disgusting than they are?

jeff k, what you said. we are thinking along the same lines. you beat me to the punch, so to speak, and put it much more colorfully.

sam, i'll defer to your obvious expertise, esp. after your analysis. when you put it that way, it does look like a higher potential payoff for the buenos.

that also helps to explain even better why bueno is on tv in a suit and tie -- it's certainly not the usual getup for a firefighter is it? and if this guy bueno is anything like those guys on 'rescue me', i don't think he should collect a penny! ;->

According to Francisco's attorney, he's thinking of suing as well. I can't wait to see the grounds.

AP Article

Assuming he does and both sides spend a significant part of lives mired in the legal system, I suppose you could argue that justice will have been done.

Why does MLB not care to make an example of stupid fans who ruin the enjoyment of those sitting nearby their idiotic taunts? Why is this any less irritating to nearby people than cursing, drinking too much, etc?

A clever heckler can be funny. I know I'd laugh if I heard Taco Bueno say, "Which one of you losers is going to come in and blow this one?" Of course, I'm an A's fan.

If he was using profanity or racial slurs, obviously, he should have been booted. But it doesn't appear that we know that he was "cursing" or "drinking too much." So it's all speculation at this point. The only fact we have to go on is Francisco Francisco's unwise Beane-ing of an A's fan. I'm sure that as more eyewitnesses come forward, we'll know more of what was said.

Several years ago, I was at Comiskey sitting in the left field seats, and at the time, Albert Belle was our left fielder.

There was a father, presumably a Sox fan, given the baseball cap, sitting with his daughter. The entire game, he was yelling, "Joey! Joeeeey!" making alcohol comments and basically trying to recreate the incident where Albert threw a ball into the stands.

Thankfully, Albert never turned around, but this guy still kept it up for five innings. I told him to sit down, he told me to f*ck off, which was pretty classy given that I was 15 at the time, and his daughter, younger than 10, was sitting next to him. I just didn't see a point in booing one of your own guys, as well as just being a crappy human being.

I'm a big fan of good heckling, but I don't know why security doesn't play a bigger role when people are obviously looking to start something.

Right now I am inclined to believe that there was little or no profanity involved for two reasons:

1) While nobody in print (so far) is a 100% credible witness, the specific comments mentioned do not mention anything worse than simple taunting. Gabe, who as a Primate is probably a more more believable source than many on the street who have opined on this case, corroborates this.

2) SImple reason. Yeah, fans yell. But fans in expensive seats with other fans around them typically do not yell profanity, at lest not much of it. I have sat down in those high roller zones in Oakland and the crowd just isn't that way. Hell, the LF bleacher crowd isn't that way very often (I've sat there for 50 or so games).

It just doesn't happen that often in high dollar seats where the yeller is knowable and identifiable.


Bueno, though, has gone a long way toward killing his civil case. We seem to all agree that the criminal case vs. Francisco is open-shut, but the real spectator sport will be the money case. And Bueno's "I bought these tix spcifically to heckle" comments substantially dilute what damages a jury would award, IMO.

ivan, you are kidding, right?
MLB can't do a damn thing to bueno and his ilk except ban them from games, which only hurts their bottom line. its against their self interest to do anything more than eject unruly fans.
in the case of this incident, i think things blew up too fast for any ejections to take place.
in the meantime, there is much they can do to control the behavior of players. and rightly so.
i'm not defending the buenos anymore than they deserve to be defended. but mrs. bueno did say that she was frightened for her safety after being confronted by the angry players, that they are big men and very strong, etc. ... it should be obvious to anyone with a brain that she was buttressing her settlement prospects, but MLB's marketing and lawyers must have just cringed at that little sound bite.

Please note that a good many of these "incidents" take place in September. Why does this matter? Because attendance at most ballparks dips, the team is looking to save money, and security is one of the first things to go along with folks manning the concession stands. Also, most of the off-duty cops who are commonly employed during the summertime as security aren't interested in September night games.

I cannot speak directly to the Oakland security situation, but considering that attendance has never been that great it's possible that legit security is only present in the immediate vicinity of the dugouts.

What was the time lag from beginning to end? It seemd to take some time to percolate. THAT is why I would be wondering where the heck was anyone from the Oakland staff.

Of course, I have been in attendance in similar situations where when security was approached the guy shrugged and said "not my section" while some schmoe beat the crap out of someone.

I have this picture in my head of what they're like -- loud, obnoxious, the kind of parents whose kids never do anything wrong (even though they're all brats and bullies).

You mean you don't think she's a real classy broad and her vile epithet-spewing husband was merely engaging in "traditional banter" with the Rangers bullpen?

Pale Hosed, was the guy heckling Belle drunk?

Pale Hosed, was the guy heckling Belle drunk?

Towards the end of the game, yes. But he was yelling "Joeeeey!" since the top of the first. But he might've entered the stadium with a few in him for all I know.

# Posted by Shredder on September 16, 2004 at 11:55 AM (#858642)
Nothing justifies it, but there are a lot of things that mitigate it.


Exactly. If someone said a few of those things to me, I'd be hard pressed to call them an innocent bystander.

I disagree with treder and others that say that something vile must have been said to create the reaction that followed. People have strange hot buttons. Some people think MFer is a vile insult. Some people go nuts if you say you slept with their sister -- some couldn't care less. Some people thinking being accused of being gay is worthy of a fight. There are a lot of non-racist, non-cursing comments that can get under the skin of even professional athletes who should be used to it. My ex-wife says I have a knack of pushing hot buttons without saying anything that appears to be offensive "on paper", but I think the truth is that some people have a lot of hot buttons.

While nobody in print (so far) is a 100% credible witness, the specific comments mentioned do not mention anything worse than simple taunting. Gabe, who as a Primate is probably a more more believable source than many on the street who have opined on this case, corroborates this.

Which is what's so odd here. Players hear simple taunting every day. One of two things happened here: (a) Brocail suddenly had a hysterical reaction to the kind of taunting players routinely hear, or (b) he heard something quite a bit more provocative than what players routinely hear.

I'll be very surprised if it doesn't turn out to be (b).

"I disagree with treder and others that say that something vile must have been said to create the reaction that followed. People have strange hot buttons."

Speaking as one of the others, I disagree with your disagreement. People do have strange hot buttons. But the point is that, if Bueno was just engaging in "normal banter", then hot button has been pushed hundreds of times in Brocail's case. You think that Bueno stayed completely within the bounds of common decency, and came up with something that Brocail had never heard before, and caused him to charge the stands?

I'll reposition Danny's question to me, to you. What statement would fit this criteria?

The only reasonable course of action a player can ever follow when being heckled is to ignore it, no matter how disgusting the heckler.

You may not have meant this the way I'm reading it, but this is a terrible way to deal with the problem. The players should demand the clown be ejected. Hecklers are doing this for attention; ignore them and they'll be tempted to escalate. Francisco did something horribly wrong, but this situation should've been resolved much, much sooner.


Of course, I have been in attendance in similar situations where when security was approached the guy shrugged and said "not my section" while some schmoe beat the crap out of someone.

Make a call (everybody has a cellphone) or write a letter to the team demanding that clown be fired.

the thing that bothers me possibly more than the actual incident is the Buenos comments about their actions.

these pathetic people chose to have their seats near the opposing teams bullpen so that they can heckle them? It's the american way? what type of garbage is that. I'm sorry but who in their right mind thinks heckling is something to be proud of and think it's a intelligent way to behave at any funchtion?

I just don't understand that, getting your jollies off of ridiculing other people?? I mean look at that women, are you telling me she didn't get ridiculed in school or anywhere else about here weight etc? and ask her when that was happening if it was ok, because it's an american tradition?

gimme a break, francisco was wrong, he should get arrested or whatever the prosecutors decide, he should have to pay something over $10,000 but less than $30,000 for his actions to the Buenos and MLB should make an example out of him. But c'mon the Buenos defense of their actions is ludicrous, I'm sure they have Jerry Springer recorded on their vcr also. (btw, I understand the free speech issue etc, and wouldn't ever condone anything that prevents heckling or anything like that, but just because you are free to do something, doesn't mean you have to do it)

damn it, how did I misspell function??? that is pretty pitiful.

We grade on content here, not syntax -- relax cardsfan.

The players should demand the clown be ejected. Hecklers are doing this for attention; ignore them and they'll be tempted to escalate.

Hecklers are certainly doing it for attention. The attention created by the player demanding the clown to be ejected is precisely that kind of attention; it's a perfect demonstration that the heckling has gotten under the player's skin.

Other fans having to have the crap interfere with their enjoyment of the game are the ones who should call security. The best course of action for players is to block everything going on in the stands out of their consciousness, as best they can.

This is gonna be a big settlement, IMO. Easily into six figures.

Sam, I have one question for you: where are the damages? A broken nose is worth six figures? Even if a trial jury awarded such an outlandish sum based upon contempt for Francisco's recklessness, the judge would be compelled to knock it out because the award cannot possibly be squared with the amount of damage she suffered. Will she miss any work because of this injury? Will she have any out of pocket medical expenses (extremely unlikely)? All that's left are non-economic damages, and you'd have a hard time convincing me that, if the injury had been caused by any other negligent act, pain and suffering could possibly be worth $100,000.

I am a staunch, vocal opponent of the movement, led by Pres. Bush, to place a one-size-fits-all cap on such awards in tort cases. A six-figure award in this case, however, would be easy fodder for that crowd to point to the frivolousness of certain jury awards and the need to prevent such unjust outcomes.

Lawyers on both sides are doing some spade work in the court of public opinion prior to getting down to the brass tacks of talking settlement.

Didja see the "spade work" being done by the Bueno's slip-and-fall lawyer? I quote their hired ambulance chaser thusly:

"What the Texas Rangers did is wrong. It's like the Abu-Ghraib prison scandal. It all starts at the top."

This year's SABR convention had a special session devoted to heckling. I didn't attend it.

On another note entirely...

The most beautiful thing about it was the reaction of Kenny Rogers, who was situated just behind Fransisco as the big kid hurled his (I assume it was his) chair into the stands.

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo!"

The most beautiful thing about it was the reaction of Kenny Rogers, who was situated just behind Fransisco as the big kid hurled his (I assume it was his) chair into the stands.

"NOOOOOOOOOOOOooooooo!"

Well, when it comes to chairs, you gotta know when to hold 'em, know when to fold 'em....and know when to throw 'em

I'm not sure I'd buy a racial/ethnic slur in this case, since Brocail looks white to me, and his last name isn't one commony associated with a particular group. I guess they could've called him a generic white-guy slur like honky or cracker, but that's pretty uncommon nowadays, and from the photo of Mrs. Bueno, it looks like she might be white as well.

This'd be a great thread for an Arlie Latham post, if Primer were still registration-free.

I may be the only one here who thinks along these lines, but here goes:

First, we'll never know what happened. Without a tape, it's totally He said / She said.

Second, Francisco should be suspended for a minimum of 30 days.

Third, the A's should put a big, thick, barrier between their fans and the visiting bullpen.

But fourth, I have only marginal sympathy for the Bueno woman. She should have at least as much cause to sue the A's, or her husband, as she has to sue Francisco, since it was likely her husband's mouth which was the cause of the chair being thrown. To me, this is like a creep who walks into a 7-11, sticks a knife at the owner's throat, and then sues the owner when he gets a surprise bullet in his own face. The whole idea that players should just ignore all comments is wise and sensible, but it has nothing whatsoever to do with whether we should feel particularly sorry for Ms. Bueno. Sounds to me like her best course would be to get a new husband and start associating with a better class of people. If I were on a civil jury I'd award her the exact cost of her medical expenses and any lost wages, but not one cent more.

If you lie down with dogs, sometimes you wake up with a faceful of fleas, which is more or less what happened here.

I think Mr. Bueno is the one lying down with a dog!

No, seriously... thought experiment, if Francisco's chair had hit no one, what would you say his suspension should be?

I am a staunch, vocal opponent of the movement, led by Pres. Bush, to place a one-size-fits-all cap on such awards in tort cases. A six-figure award in this case, however, would be easy fodder for that crowd to point to the frivolousness of certain jury awards and the need to prevent such unjust outcomes.

Exactly. Save those awards for people who've had their drinking water contaminated by chemical plants, not for trivial cases like this.

No, seriously... thought experiment, if Francisco's chair had hit no one, what would you say his suspension should be?

Exactly the same as it will be now. I've never understood why attempted battery should be treated any differently than successful battery. The intent is the key ingredient; otherwise you're in effect just rewarding bad aim, which is a curious kind of judgment for a criminal court to make.

If I were on a civil jury I'd award her the exact cost of her medical expenses and any lost wages, but not one cent more.

Well said.

I'm not sure I'd buy a racial/ethnic slur in this case, since Brocail looks white to me, and his last name isn't one commony associated with a particular group. I guess they could've called him a generic white-guy slur like honky or cracker, but that's pretty uncommon nowadays, and from the photo of Mrs. Bueno, it looks like she might be white as well.

On an Oakland A's fan Usenet board, a fan who claims to have been in the area of the incident says that what set Brocail off was that Mr. Bueno was taunting Brocail about his stillborn child. If that is true, that might explain the seeming overreaction on the part of the Rangers pitchers.

Link from Usenet.

a fan who claims to have been in the area of the incident says that what set Brocail off was that Mr. Bueno was taunting Brocail about his stillborn child. If that is true, that might explain the seeming overreaction on the part of the Rangers pitchers.

It would. That's the kind of really hurtful stuff, whether profanity-laced or not, that would tend to provoke a violent reaction.

In that case, Mr Bueno deserves everything that happened to him. I have no sympathy for ########- sometimes, they get what they deserve.

On an Oakland A's fan Usenet board, a fan who claims to have been in the area of the incident says that what set Brocail off was that Mr. Bueno was taunting Brocail about his stillborn child. If that is true, that might explain the seeming overreaction on the part of the Rangers pitchers.

Holy crap. That's worse than any epithet I can think of and, truthfully, were I in Brocail's situation... Well, can't say that I'd have reacted any differently. There's not a way you can take that sort of thing sitting down.

I haven't yet been able to confirm the veracity of the stillborn comment claim from other sources (although it was apparently reported by a Dallas radio station).

It would explain a lot of the subsequent actions, though.

If I were on a civil jury I'd award her the exact cost of her medical expenses and any lost wages, but not one cent more.

Well said.

Give me a P! Give me a U! Give me an N!

(Etc., etc.)

Forget actual/compensatory damages. This is a punitive damages case, folks. Grossly reckless behavior, which is not sufficiently deterred by the (relatively) low level of compensatory damages.

Mind you, I'm not necessarily saying this should be a case for large punitives. But a $200,000 judgment is not really that large in a case like this, and there are a sufficient number of deep pocket defendants to get us to that number pretty easily.

BTW, I am confident Mrs. Buneo will include in her lawsuit the A's, and the city of Oakland, for the failure to provide a safe environment (i.e., not having a barrier between the fans and the bullpen).

I would say the money will ultimately come from the principals in the following proportion (or something close thereto):

Texas Rangers 50%
Francisco 20%
Oakland (depending on any sovereign immunity defenses it might have) 20%
Oakland A's 10%

One other point. It was alluded to in the other thread, but not in this context. The Buenos have major leverage here. If they decide not to go forward with charges, the criminal case against Francisco will very likely die. Since he faces potential deportation if he's convicted of a felony, he has a huge incentive to settle, and so do the Texas Rangers, who have a major investment in him.

They'll settle, and for a big number.

And one more thing.... where were this couple's three teenage boys while these Parents of the Year were at the ballpark yelling at opposing players? I haven't read any mention of them being at the game with dear old Mom and Dad. Are the Buenos and Ligues related somehow... beyond just plain old stupidity?

To razz someone about a stillborn child is so horriffic, I can't imagine anyone saying, or even thinking it up. Did the Brocail family in fact suffer this tragedy? How would Bueno know about it? Was it publicly reported?


If this is true, I am suddenly in Brocail's camp (though NOT Francisco's). But it's whacked out enough to make me suspicious of its accuracy....

This year's SABR convention had a special session devoted to heckling.

You call that a presentation? My four-year-old does better research than that! This is the kind of crap that belongs at the regional meeting in Phoenix, not the annual convention! Get the hell off the podium!

If the still-born taunting is true, and I were in the stands and had heard that crap, I would be calling the Rangers' attorneys and offering my testimony and hoping 50 other people do the same. The Buenos would deserve their costs plus a heaping dose of public scorn. Even Jerry Springer would stay away from them.
Francisco deserves a year-long suspension from baseball and whatever criminal assault penalties that are apropos.
Sam M, if 50 fans testified that Mr. Bueno was taunting about Brocail's still-born child, would he and the Mrs. still get 6 figures?

They'll settle, and for a big number.

I don't doubt your legal expertise in predicting this outcome one bit. But the fact that this outcome will likely ensue doesn't make it a good outcome; it's a sucky outcome. The Buenos will be enriched because Mr. Bueno's appallingly crude behavior provoked an appallingly stupid reaction.

Francisco's punishment should come from his employers. He should get suspended and fined big time. The notion that additional punitive damages levied by the court, and paid to the Buenos, adds any value to this sordid little episode is daft.

Sam M, if 50 fans testified that Mr. Bueno was taunting about Brocail's still-born child, would he and the Mrs. still get 6 figures?

I think so, mostly for the reasons explained in # 70 (the massive incentive Francisco & the Rangers have to settle).

If it got to trial, if Bueno was that disgusting, it would make him very unsympathetic, no doubt. And it might affect the jury's view of Mrs. Bueno. But it wouldn't necessarily help Francisco, since it wasn't about him. If I were the plaintiff's lawyer, I'd point out that if Brocail was able to contain himself in that situation, why couldn't Francisco? And I'd stress that the plaintiff is MRS. Bueno, and whatever you may think of what her husband said, it doesn't justify someone hurtling a dangerous object in HER direction.

Sam M, if goes to a jury trial and the testimony reveals that Bueno was taunting Brocail about his stillborn child, there ain't a jury from Presque Isle to San Diego to Key West to Seattle that is going to give the Buenos one red cent.

That explains the peculiar motion the Buenos filed to have their case tried in Bellingham.

Forget actual/compensatory damages. This is a punitive damages case, folks. Grossly reckless behavior, which is not sufficiently deterred by the (relatively) low level of compensatory damages.

Actually, Sam, a far better deterrent to future incidents like this would be just to put up a hockey-style plastic barrier behind the bullpen. You really don't need to drag the courts into this.

And if the A's should counter that this would ruin the "game experience" for their fans, then perhaps they can invest in a few security guards and a few cases of NoDoz.

The obvious solution is inflatable bullpen furniture.

If I were the plaintiff's lawyer, I'd point out that if Brocail was able to contain himself in that situation, why couldn't Francisco?

Brocail had to be restrainted by about 6 of his teammates. I'd hardly call that "containing himself."

Or inflatable fans.

Whoops, I forgot the bags of hot air were already in place! Sorry.

The obvious solution is inflatable bullpen furniture.

I think pre-emptive strikes by the fans would be the best way to counter this sort of heinous attack. You know the players will attack again at some point....

a far better deterrent to future incidents like this would be just to put up a hockey-style plastic barrier behind the bullpen. You really don't need to drag the courts into this.

Ah, but you do. One of the arguments in favor of the tort system and punitive damages is that their availability gives potential defendants the necessary monetary incentive to take precautions of exactly that type. The argument is that auto manufacturers, e.g., put in safety improvements only when they're (a) forced to do so by regulations, or (b) incented to do so by the prospect of massive liability.

Here, you could argue that a big judgment (or settlement) would induce big league teams and stadium authority to make just the type of improvement you suggest.

I wonder how many people are like me. I haven't attended any live major league sporting event since a Met-Dodger doubleheader that was ruined by three drunken ######## in the row behind us. I decided that if MLB would rather push beer than the game they wouldn't get my money. My older brother, an attorney, kept my little brother and I from pounding the drunks, telling us WE, who were just trying to enjoy the game, would end up arrested and maybe sued. Of course he was right, but my day was ruined.

Now when I watch Extra Innings they show that asinine "in our house" Fox promo, showing morons painting their bodies and shaving their heads to go to a baseball game. The implication is, unless you're a total #######, you shouldn't go to games. So I take their advice.

Put all that together, and any defense attorney worth a penny will tell his or her clients they are going to pay a LOT of money. If the Buneos settle for five figures, it'll be conclusive proof they are NOT money-grubbers just out for a quick buck.

I think that is dependent on where the trial might potentially be held. Is Alameda (sp?) County thought of as a plaintiff's county, generally? A defendant's? Any decent civil attorney in the area could tell you right away. And different areas are more likely to award (or not award) differently, sometimes vastly differntly, sometimes right next door to each other.

I suppose it is possible Francisco's attorney, if this gets to trial, has some options. If the plaintiff's attorneys try to stack the jury with non-Caucasian blue collar people (traditionally thought to be more sympathetic to plaintiffs), I suppose the defense lawyer could play up Francisco's own ethnicity, his non-resident status, a poor guy being screamed at by a bunch of Americans (who by their own admission came to the game primarily for just that purpose) using English-language slurs and making threatening gestures. Depending on the attorney's skills and the makeup of the jury, that defense might knock an award way down. At any rate, I'd turn it around and put the Bueno's on the defensive. It already appears they are not very sympathetic figures to some people. Use it against them. Ask Craig Bueno to describe the thrill he gets when he heckles a player and the player acknowledges him in some way. Does it make him feel important somehow? Stuff like that.

Not that I think it'll ever make it to trial. I just don't think six-figures is a slam dunk, is all.

If I were on a civil jury I'd award her the exact cost of her medical expenses and any lost wages, but not one cent more.

Rule of thumb in these parts (known as a strong county for plaintiff's) on PI cases -- the plaintiffs demand 10 x whatever the total of the "specials" (med. costs + any reasonably expected future medical costs, partial permanent disability, etc. + lost wages) while the defendant's counter-offer 2 x specials. Then you go from there. 9 times out of 10 the thing is settled for some figure in between, closer to whose offer being largely dependent on the evidence, how sympathetic the plaintiff and/or defendant would appear to a jury, etc. A settlement is a calculated gamble on both sides, made more difficult to arrive at because of the knowledge on both side that once a case gets in front of a jury, the outcome is wildly unpredictable. I've seen defendants who had a pretty solid defense lose out solely because their attorney came across to the jury as an arrogant prick. And vice-versa.

As someone pointed out, a broken nose might total $4-5000.00 in actual medical costs, more if corrective cosmetic surgery is deemed needed. But using the times ten yardstick, even if the plaintiffs got everything they reasonably demanded, this wouldn't make six figures. The only way that happens is if Bueno's attorney can prove some fairly extravagant claim for punitive damages (and I don't know what he could base a solid case for that on), or else he sues everyone in sight (more likely).

I'd be interested to know what the torts situation with regards to PI cases is in NoCal generally, and the Oakland area specifically.

Sam, I don't believe that the Buenos get punitive damages even if their account is true and their heckling was only of the innocent variety. As a matter of policy, punitives should only be awarded to deter the most outrageous conduct, and I fail to see how $200K in punitive damages would deter, say, Billy Wagner (who makes $9M per year) from doing the same thing if the mood struck him. It is likely as not that the judge says something like "save it for a case where it really matters, counselor".

And even if punitives were awarded, against whom do you award them? Francisco is the only defendant whose actions were even arguably outrageous enough to justify them (although I would argue strenuously against this). Punitive damages could not possibly lie against the Rangers (must they post a team employee in the bullpen to prevent future occurrences? respondet superior is clearly out of the question as throwing baseballs, not chairs, is his job) or the A's, and certainly not against the city (I'm not sure liability even sticks against them).

I recognize the risk factors involved for Francisco, but he is certainly not the deepest pocket in the case and is unlikely to be able to cough up the lion's share of a $200K settlement. Unless the Rangers do so just to avoid further bad pub (which would be a gift to Francisco, IMO), they have no reason to pony up that kind of cash when they have very viable defenses available.

I believe the Mariners have kind of a roofed area behind the visiting bullpen with a chain-link, floor to ceiling fence in between. This enables safe and convenient mockery of opposing pitchers' familial tragedies. However, there's still danger of putting one's fingers through the fence. Hannibal Lecteresque plexiglass would seem a better solution indeed.

Alternately, pitchers in the bullpen should be provided with little cards that show the proper way to deal with these situations:

"When you said ____________, it made me feel ___________, because ___________. And that is why I threw __________."

I agree wholeheartedly with Sam for all of the reasons he has cited as well as the pressure that the Rangers (from MLB as well) will feel to get thing over...quickly. The last thing the Rangers want is for this thing to drag out. WHile the result will suck, that result is no different than any other lawsuit regarding publicly witnessed events, the great (and I really mean great here) majority of which settle....its all about leverage. Francisco has absolutely none here...This guy hopes to earn multi-millions in MLB - all of which could end here..unless he pays a couple hundred grand (with his employer's assistance - an interesting insurance case potentially) to make it go away. WHat would you do?

One question I have though is whether the conty prosecuter would still pursue the case even if the victim didn't want to testify? I haven't seen the video or anything butthere may be enough for a local A's fan to win himself another election here regardless of what the lady decides to to.

NICOLL Shut your festering gob, you ###! Your type makes me PUKE! You vacuous, toffee-nosed, scrofulous pervert!
PUNTER Look! I came here for an argument, not to be...
NICOLL Oh!... Oh, I'm sorry! This is ABUSE.
PUNTER Ah!
NICOLL No, no. You want 12A, next door.
PUNTER I see, sorry!
NICOLL Not at all, that's all right.

I'm talking mostly about settlement, Chris, not an actual award of punitives. It's the prospect of such an award (along with the impact of the civil case on the criminal charges and potential deportation) that makes the case worth that much in settlement.

As to who would pony the lion's share of it up: the Rangers. They don't want to risk losing a valuable player to deportation.

The Buenos get $50,000 from Francisco. Unlikely? Hardly, given that he is the one at potential risk for paying punitives for his recklessness.

They get $100,000 from the Rangers. Unlikely? Not if the Rangers think their investment in Francisco is at risk, it's not.

They get $25,000 each from the A's and the City of Oakland, whom they sue alleging inadequate security and/or barriers. Chump change to both of them and/or their insurers -- basically, nuisance value.

Total: $200,000. Taken care of in an afternoon.

Can Francisco throw a chair further than Billy Beane?

By the way, for anyone who has been to Citizens' Bank Park, you can bet that the Phillies are looking at this case and breathing a sigh of relief that something similar did not happen there. The opponents bullpen is something like a zoo cage where the fans lord over the opposing players and hurl insults with seeming impunity. It won't surprise me when a fan crosses the line with his/her comments and gets a 90 MPH heater at his/her head for their trouble if the Phils don't do something to intervene.

New evidence shows a possible motive: apparently, Bueno was timing Brocail's pitches.

respondet superior is clearly out of the question as throwing baseballs, not chairs, is his job)

CA law is broader than you suggest. The Rangers probably are liable for punis. It's not a slam dunk argument, but I'd rather have the plaintiff's case on this issue.

Total: $200,000. Taken care of in an afternoon.

Given the deportation angle (which I had not considered when I made my previous post), this is possible. And the attorney'll get $66,000.00 to $80,000.00 of it up front, plus his expenses. The Buenos can pay their medical bills and salve their punitive souls with the rest.

Sam, I guess the only problem I have with that reasoning is that I don't see the Rangers being very likely to keep Francisco. I don't know anything else about his employment history, but this would be a pretty good reason t unload him. Yes, he's pitched fairly effectively this season, but middle relievers like him are fairly fungible. Unless they value him more than I think they do, I don't see a reason beyond pressure from MLB or public relations to pay a nickel toward Francisco's settlement. I guess we'll have to wait and see how aggressive they are in their defense.

lol on the Arlie Latham reference!

If it's any consolation, it is obvious to most of us that these heckler fans are first-class jerks. Most of the country feels the same way. Their whole community likely now recognizes them as such.

If someone could guarantee you $100,000, at the cost of your dignity and reputation, would you take it?
Now, I realize that a guy who buys season tickets near the bullpen just to heckle may be doing other things that already made some people realize what a jerk he is. But presumably many casual acquaintances didn't realize just how much of a jerk he is until this incident.

I could have lived with the heckling part if he just said they wanted an apology and payment for any medical bills. Smells like they want a lot more, though.

I think Brocail and a few other Rangers should show up at the firehouse in the offseason and taunt Mr. Bueno. Nothing personal, you know, just having some fun.

Re: Philly - apparently a number of visiting teams have requested to the Phillies that the bullpen arrangement be switched. I have been the CBP and they line up early to get a good spot to heckle the opposition bullpen.

Oh, and how is that horse everyone is on to be able to go after the "low class" folks? Just wondering if that if the Buenos were more attractive if the responses would have been any different.

Oh, and how is that horse everyone is on to be able to go after the "low class" folks? Just wondering if that if the Buenos were more attractive if the responses would have been any different.

OK, Danny. Where are you when I need you?