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Sunday, September 02, 2018

Fancred Sports : Jon Heyman: Eloy Jimenez’s camp unhappy he’s unlikely to play for White Sox this year

What’s the potential CBA fix? Where does this issue fit into the MLBPA’s priority list? I would think gaining a bigger share of MLB revenue would be a more pressing problem to address. The revenue share is also a problem which impacts every member, unlike the service time problem.

Alluding to the players already protesting, Kinzer said, “Eventually, you’ll probably have to add us to the list.”

Not that he seems to be overly optimistic about their prospective case. There’s nothing specifically in the CBA about teams delaying ready players to set their clock back by a year, so the union/players have to prove the team didn’t act in good faith. “Bryant’s got a pretty good case … but they’ve been waiting on it two years,” Kinzer opined.

The ChiSox’s recent silence on the matter is being seen as reason to believe Jimenez will have to wait into next season for his call up.

“There’s no reason for optimism,” Kinzer said.

Jim Furtado Posted: September 02, 2018 at 06:59 AM | 22 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cba, eloy jimenez, service time, white sox

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   1. Walt Davis Posted: September 02, 2018 at 07:42 AM (#5737592)
While there's no obvious fix to service time games, it is pretty clear that the player's share of revenue is affected by teams (a) getting good production very cheap for 6+ years and (2) the "+" part ain't helping.

The union probably does need to address the early service time issues (but then I've been saying this for, what, 15 years now?) by getting huge raises for pre-arb years and/or a faster/easier route to arbitration.** (And FA but I think they'd have a very hard time getting a reduction from 6 to 5 years.) As to the "+" part, all I can think of is increasing the team's pain by making a "full" season something like 120-140 service days ... then at least the White Sox have to do without for two months to game the system. In this particular case, given where the Sox probably will be quality-wise for 2019, it probably doesn't matter and he would just stay down for 2 months. In the 2015 Cubs case with Bryant, that would have been a much harder decision.

I've proposed before that a "rational" way to improve things is to tie service time to the 40-man, not the 25-man roster (while keeping in place minor-league FA rules, etc.) That won't help Jimenez either since he's not on the 40-man but it would help some slower-developing prospects.

** Something like a salary structure of $1/2/3 M over the first 3 years ... maybe including salary bumps when a player passes a threshold mid-season. With also a big jump in 40-man pay. Maybe it would even help a bit with all those relievers rotating in and out. I was pretty surprised that the last CBA negotiation didn't feature discussion of a big jump in the min salaries and the lux tax threshold.
   2. Sean Forman Posted: September 02, 2018 at 09:40 AM (#5737600)
Free agency in the year you turn 25.

Free agency seven or eight seasons after you sign your first contract.
   3. Random Transaction Generator Posted: September 02, 2018 at 10:52 AM (#5737612)
I like the idea of free agency after a set number of years from signing your first contract. The unintended consequence is that that teams might not sign 16 year old foreign players to contracts. Why would you want to do that if they are only going to get 2 or 3 years of MLB control (assuming they are in the minors from 16-19)?

Teams might also decide that drafting high school players only works for the upper-upper level talents. If you sign a college pitcher/hitter, you might have 5-6 years of cheap control at the MLB level, while a high school pitcher/hitter might only give you 3-4 years of control.
   4. Brian C Posted: September 02, 2018 at 11:00 AM (#5737614)
Free agency in the year you turn 25.

My guess is that the owners would rather fold the league and raze every baseball park in the country before agreeing to this.
Free agency seven or eight seasons after you sign your first contract.

Aside from the likelihood of the owners accepting this (or not), it's an interesting proposal to think through. On its face, it would discourage a lot of draftable players out of high school from going to college. I assume it would have pretty radical consequences over time with regard to Latin American operations, as well, although maybe not as radical since international bonus pools went into effect.

ETA: Damn, RTG beat me to both points.
   5. asinwreck Posted: September 02, 2018 at 11:23 AM (#5737619)
I wonder if front offices are going to be more circumspect next year than Rick Hahn was this summer when he said Kopech and Jimenez needed to check off some boxes....and Jimenez then put up an OPS of 1.022 in AAA over 200 AB.
   6. SoSH U at work Posted: September 02, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5737630)
As long as you have players develop at different rates and demonstrate readiness at different points in the season, but free agency that is limited to the offseason, any system you create is going to benefit one group of players vs. another. You can almost certainly improve it, but some degree of unfairness is unavoidable.
   7. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: September 02, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5737631)
RTG hits the key point on the FA after 7-8 years of the first contract. The high school market would dry up and it would be absolutely devastating for the Latin American players.

Honestly I don’t see this as any more of a problem than teams giving outrageous contracts to Pablo Sandoval or Josh Hamilton. Someone always gets screwed. I’d rather see more of the money go to the players because that is who I pay to see but I can’t imagine any radical solution being something both parties would be agreeable to.

I think if anything we are going to see some kind of incremental change; get rid of the super two in exchange for FA after 5 years instead of 6 or something like that.
   8. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 02, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5737637)
RTG hits the key point on the FA after 7-8 years of the first contract. The high school market would dry up and it would be absolutely devastating for the Latin American players.

No reason you couldn't adjust the rules to handle this. Make it the latter of 7 years after your first contract or 26.

So, a 16 y.o. spends 5 years in the minors, the team gets 5 years of control. A 22 y.o. spends 2 years in the minors, the team gets 5 years of control.

It completely changes the incentives to favor getting good players to MLB as soon as possible. That's what we all want, right?
   9. Baldrick Posted: September 02, 2018 at 12:14 PM (#5737639)
I agree that the driving incentive should be to encourage teams to bring up guys as soon as they're ready. Any system that actively punishes you for bringing up a major-league ready kid is a bad system.
   10. Man o' Schwar Posted: September 02, 2018 at 01:15 PM (#5737670)
Make it the latter of 7 years after your first contract or 26.

I like this a lot, though honestly I'm not so worried about 16 year olds not being signed. That's awfully young not only to be signing a contract like that but then to be relocated to a new country. I don't know that organizations do a great job looking out for 16- and 17-year-old signees, or at least not as good as they probably should.

I'd be OK with a rule that says you can't sign anyone until they turn 18, regardless of where they're coming from (if I didn't think that it would just up the market for fake birth certificates in Latin America).
   11. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 02, 2018 at 01:41 PM (#5737678)
I like this a lot, though honestly I'm not so worried about 16 year olds not being signed. That's awfully young not only to be signing a contract like that but then to be relocated to a new country.

Generally the 16-17 y.o.'s stay in their countries and play in a developmental league, or just in the team's camp. I don't think you ever see a player <18 coming t the US to play Rookie ball.
   12. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 02, 2018 at 02:44 PM (#5737701)
I don't think you ever see a player <18 coming t the US to play Rookie ball.


Gleyber Torres and Eloy Jimenez did.
   13. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 02, 2018 at 02:50 PM (#5737706)
So did Willson Contreras and Jose Quintana.
   14. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 02, 2018 at 02:58 PM (#5737711)
Sean Forman’s proposal is the one that’s needed. It’ll almost certainly take a strike to get it done, though, but the players have been getting very badly screwed over on the past few CBAs. And it’s only gonna get worse until the MLBPA draws the line in the dirt.
   15. Skloot Insurance Posted: September 02, 2018 at 03:12 PM (#5737718)
Generally the 16-17 y.o.'s stay in their countries and play in a developmental league, or just in the team's camp. I don't think you ever see a player <18 coming t the US to play Rookie ball.


Most of the top international free agents who sign at age 16 spend their age-17 seasons playing in U.S.-based Rookie leagues.

Vlad Jr., Wander Franco, etc. Eloy and Gleyber as noted earlier.

The only reason no 16-year-olds play in the U.S. the year they sign is because National Association rules forbid it. Players must turn 17 by the end of the season of the minor league to which they are assigned.
   16. JJ1986 Posted: September 02, 2018 at 03:14 PM (#5737719)
The Eloy Jimenez thing seems like the kind of service time manipulation that happens all the time. Keeping Byron Buxton down to earn an extra year seems like the kind of manipulation that will lose a grievance.
   17. Howie Menckel Posted: September 02, 2018 at 03:17 PM (#5737720)
this is the site that used to be called "Fanrag" - which is the worst name imaginable.

imagine you're in the mood for romance and call out to your gal to shut down the computer.
"just a minute, honey - I'm on the 'rag!"

#rallykiller
   18. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 02, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5737762)
The Eloy Jimenez thing seems like the kind of service time manipulation that happens all the time.

Agreed, but the fact that it’s common doesn’t make it right. It screws over the players and the fans (who don’t get to see the best players—like the Chicagoans who had to watch Mike Olt flail around for two weeks until Bryant could come up.)
   19. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: September 02, 2018 at 08:35 PM (#5737813)
It's inexcusable for the Sox to not bring Jimenez up. Dude is OPSing 1.105 in AAA, he's already on the 40 man, and is quite likely the best hitter in the organization. There is no baseball reason not to bring him up, and no baseball obstacle blocking him. And, he'd actually give the Sox fans something something interesting to look at on an otherwise completely uninteresting team.
   20. Paul D(uda) Posted: September 02, 2018 at 08:44 PM (#5737814)
The Jays also announced that Vlad is staying down. I hate this.
   21. Davo and his Moose Tacos Posted: September 04, 2018 at 12:09 PM (#5738230)
The MLBPA Has A New Chief Negotiator

Change is a-comin’.
   22. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: September 04, 2018 at 12:56 PM (#5738265)
It's inexcusable for the Sox to not bring Jimenez up. Dude is OPSing 1.105 in AAA, he's already on the 40 man, and is quite likely the best hitter in the organization. There is no baseball reason not to bring him up, and no baseball obstacle blocking him. And, he'd actually give the Sox fans something something interesting to look at on an otherwise completely uninteresting team.


Jim over at Sox Machine laid out the case for bringing him up quite well imo.

The Sox are actually playing good baseball, they just went into NY and Boston and took 4/6, they have one of the best records in the AL post ASB and their young pitching -- Lopez, Rodon, Giolito -- has largely fueled it -- adding Eloy to this mix would have generated a lot of excitement. Personally I'm heavily biased AGAINST anything happening 7 years from now -- including a possible FA Eloy. Events 7 years in the future should be heavily discounted in a business like MLB.

It's inexcusable for the Sox to not bring Jimenez up. Dude is OPSing 1.105 in AAA, he's already on the 40 man, and is quite likely the best hitter in the organization. There is no baseball reason not to bring him up, and no baseball obstacle blocking him. And, he'd actually give the Sox fans something something interesting to look at on an otherwise completely uninteresting team.


Steamer had him at like a 125 wRC+ projection. So yea, he'd probably be the best hitter on the club.

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