Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Wednesday, September 08, 2010

FanGraphs: Cameron: Carlos Gonzalez And The Value Of Runs

Do Colorado splits really Strittmatter? (0-1/0-3)

When Joe Posnanski, Jayson Stark, and Rob Neyer all weigh in on a topic within a few days, odds are pretty good that there’s something of interest there. Odds are also good that most all of the points worth making have already been spoken for, as those three are among the best on earth at discussing issues relating to baseball. And so, when they all tackled Carlos Gonzalez over the last few days, I figured they’d touch all the bases. However, while they did a good job of discussing most of the issues, they left out one pretty important piece of the discussion, and that’s where I’m going to throw my hat into the ring.

Gonzalez is having a great year, certainly. No one will argue otherwise. His .423 wOBA is among the best in the league, and he’s spent a significant amount of time in center field this year. Offense from an up the middle position is extremely valuable, and his bat has been more than adequate even when he’s playing one of the corner spots. Of course, when discussing Gonzalez’s performance, it is impossible to talk about the numbers without also mentioning Coors Field. Posnanski tackles the issue of his home/road splits with quite a bit of depth, and does a good job of explaining why you shouldn’t just look at his road numbers and treat them as his true talent level, assuming that the entirety of the difference should be attributed to the park.

However, there’s another piece to park effects that goes beyond trying to figure out what a guy would have done in a neutral environment, and for the purposes of MVP votes, I’d argue that it’s even more important – the value of a run in a specific environment. Put simply, a run in Colorado is worth less than a run in other places.

Repoz Posted: September 08, 2010 at 09:27 PM | 11 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: projections, rockies, sabermetrics

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. A triple short of the cycle Posted: September 08, 2010 at 10:00 PM (#3636407)
Put simply, a run in Colorado is worth less than a run in other places.

Isn't this what OPS+ is for?
   2. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 08, 2010 at 10:10 PM (#3636419)
I am sorely tempted to pull a 'zop here and post Cameron's explanation of why Carlos Gonzalez isn't one of the 50 most valuable properties in baseball.

One thing that seems to happen a lot to Rockies players is that they'll have extreme splits when they first start playing in Coors, which then eventually wash out. Tulowitzki was bashed around here because his road stats in his rookie year of 2007 were fairly weak, but he hit .267/.352/.507 on the road last season, and has hit .307/.351/.510 on the road so far this year. His home/road tOPS+ split was 128/73 in 2007, 115/85 in 2009, and is 106/94 so far in 2010. Matt Holliday showed a similar progression in his home/road tOPS+ split:

2006: 132/69
2007: 126/72
2008: 110/89

So I wouldn't be surprised if Gonzalez' splits calm down a little over the next few years, even if his overall numbers don't change much. The question is: If that happens, would that affect our evaluation of his 2010 season?
   3. Danny Posted: September 08, 2010 at 10:52 PM (#3636458)
Isn't this what OPS+ is for?

Yes. It would be nice if Fangraphs park-adjusted their wOBA...
   4. Tripon Posted: September 08, 2010 at 11:13 PM (#3636471)
They do, its called RC+, which has Cargo at 159.
   5. Tripon Posted: September 08, 2010 at 11:19 PM (#3636476)
Which seems high. I'm sure after the season, Gargo's going to take a hit on park factors.
   6. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: September 08, 2010 at 11:31 PM (#3636487)
However, there’s another piece to park effects that goes beyond trying to figure out what a guy would have done in a neutral environment, and for the purposes of MVP votes, I’d argue that it’s even more important – the value of a run in a specific environment. Put simply, a run in Colorado is worth less than a run in other places.

These are not separate pieces of park effects. The reason that you try to figure out what a guy would have done in a neutral environment is precisely that a run does not have the same value in different places.
   7. Don Malcolm Posted: September 09, 2010 at 03:28 AM (#3636616)
Tulo is the only exception on the '10 Rox squad, Tom. The park effect at Coors has crept up again, for reasons that are probably conjoined in a Siamese twin type fashion.

Clearly those type of progressions didn't occur in the pre-humidor era. But the general pattern for the middle-of-the-lineup hitters was to post a 120/80 split in OPS. Holliday's overall split isn't far off from this.

Carlos is currently going in the opposite direction from the two examples you've provided. And right now, his SLG at Coors (.721) is higher than Larry Walker's (.715). He's clearly figured out how to take advantage of the park this year, especially in terms of hitting HRs. He's accounted for nearly 30% of the Rox' HRs at Coors, as opposed to 12% of their HRs on the road.
   8. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 09, 2010 at 04:02 AM (#3636626)
Tulo is the only exception on the '10 Rox squad, Tom.


Ian Stewart has hit better on the road this year. Todd Helton is just a touch better at home (104/96 tOPS+ home/road split).

The funny thing about the Rockies this year is that the Coors effect has almost all been on one side of the ball. The pitchers have given up an OPS that's just 30 points higher at home, but the hitters have an OPS that's more than 200 points higher at home.
   9. puck Posted: September 09, 2010 at 04:28 AM (#3636639)
Something odd is happening this year. I wonder if it's more than a one year bump:


tOPS of Rockies' home splits year-by-year in Coors:

Year  Bat   Pitch
-----------------
1995  127   120
1996  138   112
1997  118   108
1998  123   109
1999  126   119
2000  129   114
2001  124   111
2002  129   107
2003  121   101
2004  120   111
2005  122   101
2006  113   104
2007  115   103
2008  114   100
2009  116   105
2010  129   104 



Edit: how about that 1996 team? Of the top 10 guys in PA's, the best tOPS for the home OPS is 123. The team was 28-53 on the road, 55-26 at home...even worse than this year's split.
   10. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: September 09, 2010 at 04:34 AM (#3636643)
One of the interesting things about the coors effect is that, unlike, say, PHI or CIN or NYY, it isn't really "park"-specific. It's based on aerodynamic effects on pitches, which means that players who deal with it regularly can theoretically learn to account for it over time.

Pitches in Colorado should theoretically move less than pitches elsewhere. This means that when players leave Colorado, they should be more vulnerable to pitches that move, especially in places like SF, LA (at night) and SD. but they can learn to anticipate greater movement on the road, just like COL pitchers can learn to anticipate less movement at home.

Visiting pitchers and hitters, however, are at a disadvantage both ways, with or without the humidor. Pitches don't move the way either expect. It seems like it should be an incredible home team advantage.
   11. Don Malcolm Posted: September 09, 2010 at 06:53 AM (#3636679)
The Rox have given up about 14% more R/g at home this year, and gave up 11% more R/g at home in '09.

The Rox have scored 40% more R/g at home this year, as opposed to about 25% more in '09.

Stewart is some kind of anomaly--he's just not been able to hit with power at home this year. Helton stopped hitting HRs a few years back, and whatever's happening to him home/road this year is kind of dwarfed by what looks like a terminal decline. Lifetime H/R OPS split is 120/80.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Kiko Sakata
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogT.R. Sullivan: Of Frank Robinson, Milt Pappas and Jim Palmer
(8 - 12:40am, May 26)
Last: The Gurus DO NOT BourbonSamurai

NewsblogWilmoth: Nate McLouth Designated For Assignment
(12 - 12:25am, May 26)
Last: Tripon

NewsblogBoston.com: Curt Schilling’s 38 Studios lays off all staff
(118 - 12:15am, May 26)
Last: Paul D(uda)

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1973 Discussion
(15 - 12:13am, May 26)
Last: DanG

NewsblogBud Selig -- No need for more MLB replay for now - ESPN
(86 - 11:59pm, May 25)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogThe Hall of Very Good: Former Cards Slugger Critical of "LaRussa's Regime"
(4 - 11:26pm, May 25)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogCSN to host ‘Phillies at the Beach’ on Memorial Day
(18 - 11:25pm, May 25)
Last: Fielder's the first baseman, Felder is the fielder

Hall of MeritMost Meritorious Player: 1972 Ballot
(28 - 11:25pm, May 25)
Last: lieiam

Sox TherapyA Winning Ballclub?
(20 - 11:24pm, May 25)
Last: Dan

NewsblogMatschulat: Did I Miss The "Paul Konerko Is So Overrated OMG" Bandwagon?
(27 - 11:16pm, May 25)
Last: baudib

NewsblogTBO: Nerdy Rays head north
(17 - 10:07pm, May 25)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogHimrich’s Top Ten Target Field Foods
(6 - 9:57pm, May 25)
Last: Long John McCaine Mutiny on the Bounty (scott)

NewsblogDodgers want to host NHL's Winter Classic
(22 - 9:38pm, May 25)
Last: Cris E

NewsblogGreenberg: Cubs' Ricketts decries proposal
(817 - 9:08pm, May 25)
Last: The Yankee Clapper

NewsblogHP: Baseball is leaving the human factor behind
(55 - 8:48pm, May 25)
Last: Squash

Buy MLB playoff tickets, plus 2011 World Series, 2011 ALCS tickets and NLCS game tickets. We also have Texas Rangers playoff schedule, tickets to Red Sox games and Yankees game tickets. Plus, buy Phillies baseball tickets, Tigers playoff tickets and the biggies like ALDS baseball tickets and 2011 NLDS tickets.

Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats

 

 

 

AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets.

Page rendered in 0.2113 seconds
54 querie(s) executed