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Thursday, July 26, 2018

Fangraphs writer blasts Royals in fiery Twitter rant | The Kansas City Star

Dan should be included in the byline.

Jim Furtado Posted: July 26, 2018 at 05:39 PM | 27 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: royals

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   1. Too Much Coffee Man Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:10 PM (#5716611)
This:
“The Royals are like a the dog who chases a fire truck and then catches the fire truck and doesn’t know what to do so the dog signs Alcides Escobar and plays him forever for not a single coherent reason.”
   2. Loren F. Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:18 PM (#5716613)
Just quoting Szymborski (whose tweetstorm is good) is not much of a “column.”
   3. Panic Posted: July 26, 2018 at 09:36 PM (#5716626)
As a Royals fan, it's a little annoying to hear the "I'm just doing this for the fans" - as if the Royals fans have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome and he's going to save us by pointing out how stupid we are to take any joy in back to back WS appearances. Anytime someone defends what the Royals did to get to the top, he accuses them of worshipping at the altar of the genius Dayton Moore - who just lucked into his success.


   4. QLE Posted: July 26, 2018 at 11:29 PM (#5716665)
Anytime someone defends what the Royals did to get to the top, he accuses them of worshipping at the altar of the genius Dayton Moore - who just lucked into his success.


My thoughts on this matter are complicated- on the one hand, there are elements to the way many here consider playoff performance that seems based less on actual evidence (at least, none ever gets cited) and more on apologetics for Billy Beane, but, on the other hand, should we really be surprised that a team whose success (in the regular season and the playoffs) was so heavily reliant on their middle relievers wouldn't be able to be a consistent powerhouse in the long term?
   5. bfan Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:47 AM (#5716735)
Fact 1: This is a small market team that would have trouble competing in payroll with NYC/LA/Chicago.

Fact 2: with success spread out equally (independent of payroll, location and everything else), a baseball team should reach the world series once every 15 years, and win it once every 30 years.

I would say KC is a bit ahead of the game, playing with less money. Isn't that good?
   6. SoSH U at work Posted: July 27, 2018 at 09:54 AM (#5716743)
I would say KC is a bit ahead of the game, playing with less money. Isn't that good?


KC defied ZiPS and other projection systems in 14-15. Dan and others heard about that endlessly from Royals fans. It's payback time.

I couldn't help thinking that was a little bit of what was behind Dan's rant there. To me, KC's falloff from that time was entirely predictable and maybe not impossible to avoid, but pretty damn close.
   7. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:18 AM (#5716759)
As a Royals fan, it's a little annoying to hear the "I'm just doing this for the fans" - as if the Royals fans have some sort of Stockholm Syndrome and he's going to save us by pointing out how stupid we are to take any joy in back to back WS appearances. Anytime someone defends what the Royals did to get to the top, he accuses them of worshipping at the altar of the genius Dayton Moore - who just lucked into his success.


I couldn't help thinking that was a little bit of what was behind Dan's rant there. To me, KC's falloff from that time was entirely predictable and maybe not impossible to avoid, but pretty damn close.


Agree with both.

I mean, I partook in the Dayton bashing as much as anyone... but - some of his moves that were initially bashed as beyond stupid worked out very well for the Royals. And B2B WS appearances including a title is nothing to sneeze at, crapshoot of the postseason be damned.

I think it should be noted that Moore got more time in the big chair than most GMs with his pre-success record do, so that's a bit of an oddity.

Hey, not the way I'd have built them... but that was a nice 3-5 year run, and it got a cherry on top in 2015. No fan under the sun isn't going to be appreciative of that.

Now that the hangover is upon them, I guess we'll see whether there was some scouting secret sauce to their success or not.
   8. PreservedFish Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:27 AM (#5716766)
By the way, Eric Hosmer: .246/.312/.385, 90 OPS+, 0.2 WAR. WTF was San Diego thinking?
   9. bfan Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5716769)
By the way, Eric Hosmer: .246/.312/.385, 90 OPS+, 0.2 WAR. WTF was San Diego thinking?


That they would get the good Hosmer, and not this one?
   10. Crispix Attacksel Rios Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:30 AM (#5716770)
Eric Hosmer 2011-2017: .284/.342/.439
   11. Howie Menckel Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:44 AM (#5716787)
well, it's not like the Padres have a former first-round 1B pick in the minors who is raking... I'm just kidding. Josh Naylor has an .884 OPS this year in AA San Antonio - now in LF, where I'm sure the listed 5-11, 250-pounder is making gazelle-like moves out there.

Wil Myers played 149 and 154 games at 1B for the Padres these past two seasons. he wasn't terribly good - 115 and 107 OPS+s - but better than 2018 Hosmer, "for free."

Myers, like Naylor, has been exiled to LF this year and has a 141 OPS+ in limited action due to injury.
   12. Zonk qualifies as an invasive species Posted: July 27, 2018 at 10:48 AM (#5716793)
That they would get the good Hosmer, and not this one?


I kept saying, all throughout the winter.... he's gonna suck because it's an even-numbered year. He'll be moderately good next year.
   13. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:25 AM (#5716814)
Wil Myers played 149 and 154 games at 1B for the Padres these past two seasons. he wasn't terribly good - 115 and 107 OPS+s - but better than 2018 Hosmer, "for free."


They also signed Myers to an extension that seemed, if not ill-advised, then curious, based (I thought) on the idea that he was their starting first baseman of the future.

Hosmer was always going to screw over whatever team paid for him. Even when he's good he's not that good, and he's mostly less than that.
   14. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: July 27, 2018 at 11:48 AM (#5716837)

Josh Naylor has an .884 OPS this year in AA San Antonio - now in LF, where I'm sure the listed 5-11, 250-pounder is making gazelle-like moves out there.

Wow...11 errors in 65 games in LF, plus another 3 in 27 games at 1B. That pace would blow away the MLB record for most errors in a season by a LF (26, by Ken Williams in 1921. The post-war record is 18, by Alex Johnson in 1969...although he actually had positive Rfield that season).
   15. jmurph Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5716848)
Yeah this is just a weird rant.
   16. McCoy Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:37 PM (#5716876)
Reminds me of MGL's disdain for Tony La Russa. The Cardinals did not win in part because of Tony but despite Tony seemed to be his view. I seem to recall him thinking that Tony's decision to let Carpenter complete the 5th game in the NLDS in 2011 was an absolutely atrocious decision.
   17. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 27, 2018 at 12:48 PM (#5716882)
Royals fans are a bit miffed that they traded Soria to the Sox for literally nothing (the Sox took on his salary) and then the Sox turned around and traded him for a guy that just slotted in #19 (Kodi) into a stacked Sox system and a lotto ticket 20 year old DSL arm.

It's a total "move on the margins" but those add up and a team like the Royals should be willing to keep a guy like Soria on the payroll in hopes of doing exactly what the White Sox just did.
   18. A Baseball Fan Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:30 PM (#5716951)
I think this shows the fetishization of a "regular season third-order wins champion" over Champion flags. I guarantee you no Royals fans are upset the team won a championship but stink now. They stunk before Dayton got there, they're probably used to it. Flags fly forever. Was Dayton lucky? Sure. But don't tell me the Astros anticipated Dallas Keuchel being a Cy Young winner or Rule 5 pick Marwin Gonzalez being a 4-win player, or the Dodgers expected Chris Taylor or Justin Turner would turn out to be solid players.
   19. Sunday silence Posted: July 27, 2018 at 02:33 PM (#5716955)
Its strange that Szymborski says they missed a chance to cash in on their "goodwill" and create a new generation of baseball fans.

Is there any evidence that a team can create a generation of fans? He made a passing remark about the Cards fan base, but obviously this was created in a different era and a different time. Its not like the Royals are going to have some monopoly on the airwaves of the entire midwest.

How does one cash in on "goodwill." Anyhow? Isnt it that if you win the fans will come out? Not sure there's anything more tangible than that.
   20. A Baseball Fan Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:10 PM (#5716978)
Yea, I don't think the Cardinals model is replicable - they built up their fan base when there were literally no teams to the entire south or west of them. I mean look at the Indians. Sell outs every year of the late 90s. They had to sell off some stars, but they were still reasonably competitive for the next 15 years, including one win away from a championship. And yet I don't feel like they have created a generation of fans or a great fanbase. And that is a pretty well-run organization, at least in baseball operations, in a pretty good sports town (what else is there to do in Cleveland?)

The Royals did make major investments after their championships, they just did it in very stupid ways - handing out big dollar contracts to Alex Gordon and Ian Kennedy. They probably should have tried for a more sustainable route like the Indians, trading Cain, Hosmer, and Moustakas for prospects to build the next great Royals team, but I imagine that would have been PR suicide.
   21. This is going to be state of the art wall Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:16 PM (#5716983)
Its strange that Szymborski says they missed a chance to cash in on their "goodwill" and create a new generation of baseball fans.

Is there any evidence that a team can create a generation of fans? He made a passing remark about the Cards fan base, but obviously this was created in a different era and a different time. Its not like the Royals are going to have some monopoly on the airwaves of the entire midwest.

How does one cash in on "goodwill." Anyhow? Isnt it that if you win the fans will come out? Not sure there's anything more tangible than that.


The White Sox from 2006-2015 are a perfect example of what happens when a franchise tries to "cash in" on a World Series title with disastrous results. For years the Sox tried to pretend that their success in 2005 (and the near miss in 2006) somehow created this situation where the fans wouldn't accept a tear down and blah blah blah.

It led to a lot of shitty teams and bad decisions, culminating in James Shield for Tatis Jr trade, which in many ways is the straw the broke that camel's back and ushered in the rebuild -- about 8 years too late.

   22. Rally Posted: July 27, 2018 at 03:45 PM (#5717004)
That was painful to read style wise. First you quote Dan, but do it with a “ to start the paragraph but none to close it. Then screenshot the tweet. Sometimes 2 screenshots of the exact same tweet. Which is word for word with what you quoted. Can’t the writer spend some time organizing this so I’m not reading the exact same thing 2-3 times? It’s not like he has to put much time into writing thoughts here since it’s all just stuff Dan said.

Sadly, Royals chances of extending their window of contention died with Yordano Ventura.
   23. Zach Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:12 PM (#5717102)
I haven't been a huge fan of the moves they've made since winning the World Series. Nostalgia act is putting it a bit strongly, but not entirely wrong.

The problem is that it was a team built to peak in October 2015. They did, but they were too short-stacked to do anything afterward. So what do you do? Do you dismantle the team that just won the World Series against all odds and trade everyone for mid-tier prospects in AA? Or do you fall in love with the guys who got you there and try to keep the party going for too long?

They tried to keep the party going for too long.

   24. Zach Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:22 PM (#5717112)
There was an article in the paper about Moore getting everybody to come in the day after the parade and start the normal offseason planning.

At the time, it was viewed as an example of selfless professionalism. Now I wonder if they wouldn't have been better off partying down for a few weeks and not coming back until the hangover started to kick in. It would have been much cheaper to just pour champagne over Alex Gordon's head than to bestow him with that contract.

But still: homegrown kid from Nebraska, brother named after George Brett, team MVP for several years running, and a World Series hero for an unlikely champion from a perennial loser. You're going to let that guy walk, even after his price on the free agent market slips? You'll never have any credibility in Kansas City again.

The Marlins' model of win it and tear down the team might have sped up the rebuilding process. But you can't tell me that Miami is a healthier baseball market because of it.
   25. Zach Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:26 PM (#5717116)
The real end of the era was Ventura dying. The only guy on the 2015 team whose best years were definitely ahead of him. Charismatic, but immature. When he died, the whole team got senioritis. They thought they were still trying hard, but everybody's mind was on where they would be playing next year. Think of Senior Week at your local high school stretched out for an entire year.
   26. Zach Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5717120)
Now they've got to live down the old contracts and rebuild around a new core.

Maybe they should have started earlier, but it's not like "Whit Merrifield and his Traveling All Stars" was ever going to be a contender.

They had a team with a pretty definite window of contention, and they tried to go for it while that team was still in town. It worked for two years, disappointed for another two, and now they're left with a teardown.
   27. Zach Posted: July 27, 2018 at 06:42 PM (#5717125)
Which is not to say Moore is free from blame. He tends to fall in love with his own guys, and to keep people around long after they've stopped producing. They did the same thing with Jeff Francouer that they're doing with Alcides Escobar.

And Ned Yost nearly died last offseason! You can't tell me that guy's completely on board with a 5 or 6 year rebuilding process.

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