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Tuesday, September 17, 2019

Felipe Vazquez Arrested

This doesn’t sound good.

In a stunning and deeply troubling turn of events, Pirates pitcher Felipe Vazquez has been arrested and charged with a series of crimes in the state of Florida, according to James Santelli of CBS Pittsburgh. Vazquez, a resident of Florida, is in custody after being arrested today in Pennsylvania.

The underlying behavior alleged is exceedingly disturbing. Allegations involve an online relationship with a child, with charges including computer pornography, solicitation, and providing obscene materials to a minor. From other publicly released materials, it appears that other charges relating to the unlawful relationship with a child could also be filed.

Jim Furtado Posted: September 17, 2019 at 02:35 PM | 102 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: felipe vazquez, pirates

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   1. flournoy Posted: September 17, 2019 at 03:11 PM (#5880090)
Be wary of those nicknamed "Nightmare."
   2. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: September 17, 2019 at 03:21 PM (#5880092)
From a link within the article:

Florida law enforcement officials say their investigation began last month after officials “obtained information that Vázquez had a reported sexual relationship with a 13-year-old female” in Florida. Authorities say the alleged victim, now 15, had gotten text messages from Vázquez saying they would meet up after baseball season.

Court paperwork reports that the teen’s mother discovered the messages sent to the victim.

Investigators say the girl also allegedly received a video in July from the pitcher in which he is shown performing a sex act.

The arrest warrant affidavit says investigators were able to identify Vázquez by comparing photos of his tattoos.
   3. Bourbon Samurai stays in the fight Posted: September 17, 2019 at 03:30 PM (#5880097)
This seems like the kind of thing you go to jail for. Wonder if he ever pitches again.
   4. The Duke Posted: September 17, 2019 at 03:33 PM (#5880099)
Addison Russell is the happiest person in organized baseball today
   5. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: September 17, 2019 at 03:43 PM (#5880103)
Addison Russell is the happiest person in organized baseball today
Actually it might be Kyle Crick.
   6. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 17, 2019 at 03:44 PM (#5880104)
Not sure what Russell has to do with this - he's not the most recent guy suspended or arrested for off field reasons. And not that I'm saying one thing is worse than the other, but DV and this are also quite different things.
   7. Blastin Posted: September 17, 2019 at 03:56 PM (#5880108)
Hmm. Well then. That fall from grace was fast (or, actually, had already occurred, since this went on for a while).

Vile.
   8. Jeremy Renner App is Dead and I killed it Posted: September 17, 2019 at 04:01 PM (#5880111)
Text messages, video, this dude was not only evil but stupid. Hope that kid can somehow have a normal life after this.
   9. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 04:10 PM (#5880113)

This seems like the kind of thing you go to jail for. Wonder if he ever pitches again.

Maybe in Venezuela. I doubt he'd be allowed back in the US if convicted.
   10. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: September 17, 2019 at 04:43 PM (#5880128)
Clearly, Crick should have punched him harder.

yada yada innocent until proven allegedly blah blah.... but Crick should have punched him harder.
   11. Howie Menckel Posted: September 17, 2019 at 05:17 PM (#5880135)
investigators were able to identify Vázquez by comparing photos of his tattoos.

the best thing about tattoos is that they make you "one of a kind."

the worst thing is, well.....

if someone 30 years ago tried to mandate that the bulk of a generation of people all be branded for purposes of potential investigation in criminal cases, there would have been a rebellion.

so that didn't happen. not that way.
   12. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 05:37 PM (#5880138)
Absolutely disgusting and if true, he should go away for many years.
   13. Tin Angel Posted: September 17, 2019 at 06:27 PM (#5880146)
the best thing about tattoos is that they make you "one of a kind."

the worst thing is, well.....

if someone 30 years ago tried to mandate that the bulk of a generation of people all be branded for purposes of potential investigation in criminal cases, there would have been a rebellion.

so that didn't happen. not that way.


What on earth are you talking about? 1) The only people that think a tattoo makes them "one of a kind" is a) an 18 year old kid getting his first one or b) someone who doesn't have one and knows absolutely nothing about them. As for your other point, I guess you are insinuating people with tattoos are more likely criminals?

Since I work in a tattoo shop, I wish I would have asked the girl that came in yesterday for a tattoo in remembrance of her recently deceased mother if she was maybe a criminal? And maybe I should have sneered at her and said "So I guess that makes you think you're one of a kind, huh?" and laughed derisively at her. You sound like a conservative 90 year old grandma except less likable.

   14. Esoteric Posted: September 17, 2019 at 06:37 PM (#5880148)
as i said in the other thread, everyone else in the pirates locker room is now the hero of this story.
   15. Jeff Francoeur's OPS Posted: September 17, 2019 at 07:18 PM (#5880156)
These kinds of charges (solicitation of a minor, in particular) usually result in some jail time. If he has a good lawyer, maybe that aspect can be minimized. Unless he can plea down to misdimeanors, little doubt any felony conviction (trial or plea agreement) will result in deportation after release from jail.
   16. My name is RMc and I feel extremely affected Posted: September 17, 2019 at 07:32 PM (#5880159)
this dude was not only evil but stupid

They go together. (The "criminal mastermind" mostly only exists in movies.)
   17. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 07:43 PM (#5880161)
Hope that kid can somehow have a normal life after this.


For most girls, this IS normal life.

Whole lot of creeps out there.
   18. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: September 17, 2019 at 07:44 PM (#5880162)
Given that Vazquez is from Venezuela, wouldn’t he get deported rather than imprisoned here, if found guilty?
   19. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 07:45 PM (#5880163)
Given that Vazquez is from Venezuela, wouldn’t he get deported rather than imprisoned here, if found guilty?


Imprisoned here until he serves out his sentence or is paroled, and then deported immediately upon release.
   20. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: September 17, 2019 at 08:39 PM (#5880180)
Since I work in a tattoo shop, I wish I would have asked the girl that came in yesterday for a tattoo in remembrance of her recently deceased mother if she was maybe a criminal?


Yeah I didn't read his post that way. I'll re-read it, but at first glance it looked like he was saying that criminals with tattoos are more easily ID'd than criminals without them, not that all tattooed people are criminals.

edit...I haven't changed my mind.
   21. Brian C Posted: September 17, 2019 at 08:55 PM (#5880188)
They go together. (The "criminal mastermind" mostly only exists in movies.)

The percentage of men who get away with this kind of stuff and much worse vastly dwarfs the number that are caught.

I mean, hell, here in Chicago our clearance rate for murder is only about 15% or so.
   22. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: September 17, 2019 at 09:15 PM (#5880196)
Yeah I didn't read his post that way. I'll re-read it, but at first glance it looked like he was saying that criminals with tattoos are more easily ID'd than criminals without them, not that all tattooed people are criminals.


My impression as well. If the police were hunting for me for some reason, I'd have a hard time blending in if they know to look for Red Army Faction, clenched fist & No Gods No Masters tattoos, I'm thinking.

But hey, maybe everybody has those these days.
   23. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: September 17, 2019 at 09:26 PM (#5880205)
Who was it that said the next growth industries in the US would be same sex divorce lawyers and tattoo removal services?

   24. Howie Menckel Posted: September 17, 2019 at 09:39 PM (#5880218)
at first glance it looked like he was saying that criminals with tattoos are more easily ID'd than criminals without them, not that all tattooed people are criminals.

correct.

it appears I am collateral damage for someone else's widespread gripes about... something.

the extrapolation is pretty telling. I think they call that "projection."

c'est le vie.
   25. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 17, 2019 at 11:10 PM (#5880287)
These kinds of charges (solicitation of a minor, in particular) usually result in some jail time. If he has a good lawyer, maybe that aspect can be minimized. Unless he can plea down to misdimeanors, little doubt any felony conviction (trial or plea agreement) will result in deportation after release from jail.

Just a hunch, but I am guessing that prosecutors in Florida are not inclined to go easy on celebrities accused of sex crimes with minors these days.

The article referenced in the link also strongly indicates that Vazquez will face additional charges in PA including sexual assault of a minor, in an unrelated case.
   26. Tin Angel Posted: September 18, 2019 at 12:18 AM (#5880301)
the extrapolation is pretty telling. I think they call that "projection."


Haha. You literally said:

the best thing about tattoos is that they make you "one of a kind."


which is a complete projection on the mindset of every person that gets a tattoo.

c'est le vie.
   27. Howie Menckel Posted: September 18, 2019 at 12:27 AM (#5880303)
No further questions.

I am content to let the BBTF jury decide, based on the evidence.
   28. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: September 18, 2019 at 12:34 AM (#5880305)
Yeah I didn’t read it like Tin did.
   29. Lassus Posted: September 18, 2019 at 07:26 AM (#5880318)
I don't think it deserved near the umbrage Tin took, however I do think this:
the best thing about tattoos is that they make you "one of a kind."

which is a complete projection on the mindset of every person that gets a tattoo.
is accurate. It is a pretty clear assumption of what people are thinking when and why they get tattoos that fits a pre-set judgment.

I don't think it reflects particularly negative on Howie, but it that doesn't mean the statement doesn't bear some examination of purpose and origin.
   30. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 08:08 AM (#5880319)
I didn’t read it like Tin or even like Lassus.
   31. PreservedFish Posted: September 18, 2019 at 08:27 AM (#5880321)
Agreed with Lassus. Howie put "one of a kind" in scare quotes, which reads to me like a dismissive assumption regarding the motivations of tattoo-getters.

But quote marks can be used for in different ways, and we've seen many arguments on this site caused when one member reads quotes as implying a sarcastic, eye-rolling tone that the original author never intended. Tin Angel will never be to prove his interpretation beyond a reasonable doubt.

His freakout in #13 was not justified. Cannot convict.

Moreover, an august member of the community like Howie deserves a little bit more credit. There's a temptation in internet debate to always interpret your opponent's words in the stupidest and least flattering way possible. This site is better the more we are able to suppress that urge. Even if Howie had explicitly stated that the tattooed are more likely to be criminals - and he didn't even imply it - Tin Angel's dopey response ('should I have accused this girl of being a criminal?!??') would be silly.
   32. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 09:15 AM (#5880333)
Agreed with Lassus. Howie put "one of a kind" in scare quotes, which reads to me like a dismissive assumption regarding the motivations of tattoo-getters.


That was how I read it as well.

It's also not a particularly accurate assumption, given the large number of people who get matching tattoos to memorialize some connection or shared history (e.g. military unit insignia, fraternity letters, family coats of arms, wedding rings for spouses, etc.).
   33. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: September 18, 2019 at 09:23 AM (#5880336)
I read Howie as he intended his comment but the phrasing was such that I anticipated and understood Tin Angel's response.



   34. PreservedFish Posted: September 18, 2019 at 09:32 AM (#5880337)
Regardless, I'm sure he's correct that tattoos can help identify criminals. You might not be the only guy with the Chinese character for water on your bicep, but it sure narrows down the field.
   35. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: September 18, 2019 at 09:50 AM (#5880344)
I mean, hell, here in Chicago our clearance rate for murder is only about 15% or so.


I read this book earlier this year. The most shocking part to me was that the PD has an entire category* for murders when they know who committed the crime, but cannot bring charges because of witness intimidation or reluctance to testify.

*I think it's called "Exceptional clearance"
   36. Nasty Nate Posted: September 18, 2019 at 10:03 AM (#5880346)
If one was being uncharitable, the post also had a faint negative implication by bringing up mandatory government branding. As if people's tattoos are logged in some directory for cross-reference.
   37. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: September 18, 2019 at 10:08 AM (#5880349)
36...don't give the filthy software developers any ideas.
   38. PreservedFish Posted: September 18, 2019 at 10:14 AM (#5880353)
Probably Tin Angel is part of the covert government branding scheme. His exaggerated response must be due to his guilt over this fact, and fear of discovery.
   39. My name is RMc and I feel extremely affected Posted: September 18, 2019 at 10:18 AM (#5880355)
The percentage of men who get away with this kind of stuff and much worse vastly dwarfs the number that are caught.


I'm not talking about how often they get caught, just that evil folks tend to be stupid, and vice versa.

I mean, hell, here in Chicago our clearance rate for murder is only about 15% or so.


They're too busy chasing marauding packs of dudes wearing MAGA hats who are annoying actors.
   40. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: September 18, 2019 at 11:17 AM (#5880366)
The problem in Chicago is that trust in the CPD is less than zero in a lot of communities - and for pretty good reason.

You can go back to the Ryan death penalty moratorium - and the fact that CPD appeared to have higher clearance rates because they'd just beat bad confessions out of whomever was convenient... the Burge and Zuley stories to more recent problems; the Jerome Finnigan Special Operations Squad basically acting like a gang in its own right, conducting home invasions and robberies of its own... the more "mundane" coverup attempts like Anthony Abbate beating the crap out of a bartender who cut him off and less mundane coverups like the Laquan McDonald incident.

In all these cases and plenty of others - Chicago is now spending 100 million a year on settlements and suit losses alone - it's less a matter of a "few bad apples" and more a matter of other police witnesses being willing accomplices with bad apples.

Kim Foxx unseated Anita Alvarez almost entirely because of the Cook County DA's slow-walk of prosecutions in above cases (sprinkled in with a healthy dose of incidents using obscure laws to try - and laughably fail - to prosecute people for taping police encounters on their phones). Lori Lightfoot's mayoral win was likewise due in no small part to her heading the CPATF that was created in the wake of said problems above (though, you'll find no shortage of activists who think her heading of it was a disappointment.
   41. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5880369)

If one was being uncharitable, the post also had a faint negative implication by bringing up mandatory government branding. As if people's tattoos are logged in some directory for cross-reference.

I thought his point was that if the government had proposed inking people with "unique" identifiers (they're often not unique, as noted above, but they can be used very effectively in identification when combined with other attributes), people would be up-in-arms. But instead, people have voluntarily gone ahead and done it to themselves.

For example, while I'm sure this is not a universal, I've heard Nazi concentration camp survivors say that they could never imagine getting a tattoo.
   42. Nasty Nate Posted: September 18, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5880371)
I thought his point was that if the government had proposed inking people with "unique" identifiers (they're often not unique, as noted above, but they can be used very effectively in identification when combined with other attributes), people would be up-in-arms. But instead, people have voluntarily gone ahead and done it to themselves.
Yes and that point is stupid. The Nazis wrote down the numbers, they weren't using them by finding matching tattoos in different photographs. There's no big book of tattoos that the government can use to identify people.
   43. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 11:24 AM (#5880373)
I thought his point was that if the government had proposed inking people with "unique" identifiers (they're often not unique, as noted above, but they can be used very effectively in identification when combined with other attributes), people would be up-in-arms. But instead, people have voluntarily gone ahead and done it to themselves.


There's actually a widespread modern phenomenon at work here. If the Gov't had said they were going to collect everyone's location at all times, who their friends and relatives are, etc., people would have gone nuts. But 90% of the population voluntarily gives that info, and more, to Google, Facebook, etc.

New cars now track everywhere you drive. Now in Sweden, they have people voluntarily "chipping" themselves so they can make payments with the swipe of their hand. It's scary stuff.
   44. KronicFatigue Posted: September 18, 2019 at 12:02 PM (#5880385)
I read #11 as completely innocent, and we need to remember what he was responding to.

investigators were able to identify Vázquez by comparing photos of his tattoos.


He wasn't talking about a big book of tattoos that the government has. He was saying Vazguez's tattoos were visible in the video, and that's why investigators were so confident it was him.

Once you start there, the "one of a kind" being in quotes, to me, reads as saying that tattoos make you much easier to identify. You may not be one of a kind (I'm sure someone out there has my tattoo, probably even in the same location), but certainly the field is whittled away quite significantly. You're not literally one of a kind. You're more 150 out of 7.53 billion. The quotes here, emphasizing hyperbole.

Then he ties it all together with privacy concerns, and how we freely give away our privacy rights. I just asked the google home behind me what the earth's population was to get 7.53 billion for the above paragraph. My phone's location is always on. I have a tattoo that makes me "one of a kind". All of that is bad for my privacy. All of that can be used by law enforcement, either in the proper course of an investigation (as in Vazguez's case), or inappropriately. And all of those things, if they were mandated by the government for the purpose of criminal prevention, would be met with outrage.

I understand why the use of "one of a kind" in quotes might ruffle some feathers at first blush, but I think the outrage over it is so over the top that the response made me uncomfortable....and a bit confused.



   45. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 12:38 PM (#5880395)
Yes and that point is stupid. The Nazis wrote down the numbers, they weren't using them by finding matching tattoos in different photographs. There's no big book of tattoos that the government can use to identify people.

More bytes have already been spilled on this than warranted, so I will just say that I took Howie's comment as an offhand musing, not some sort of profound social or political commentary that warrants this kind of response.
   46. Srul Itza Posted: September 18, 2019 at 01:45 PM (#5880427)
I took Howie's comment as an offhand musing, not some sort of profound social or political commentary that warrants this kind of response.


Agreed.

There's no big book of tattoos that the government can use to identify people.


True, but to tie in to another point, large numbers of people who get tatooed then post them on facebook, instagram, wherever. I will not be surprised if there are programs to hunt down that sort of thing. It is also a trope of TV cop shows, which may or may not be real, that there are record of tatoos of actual criminals who have been arrested or convicted, which can be used to help identify suspects.

   47. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 01:51 PM (#5880429)
It is also a trope of TV cop shows, which may or may not be real, that there are record of tatoos of actual criminals who have been arrested or convicted, which can be used to help identify suspects.


I think prisons definitely record a guy's tattoos. They need to know which gang he's in so they can put him in the right cell block.
   48. Blastin Posted: September 18, 2019 at 02:09 PM (#5880438)
It's true that most criminals are dumb and also that most of them aren't caught for violent crimes.

There's usually tons of evidence, just not always found.
   49. . Posted: September 18, 2019 at 02:47 PM (#5880457)
Wokeness is really weird.
   50. Cris E Posted: September 18, 2019 at 03:18 PM (#5880479)
I took it like Kronic and was surprised at Tin's response.

Vazquez is trash.

I hope someone in the clubhouse comes out with a little about the Crick fight last week. It would be strange if they knew about this a week before any charges were filed.
   51. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: September 18, 2019 at 03:59 PM (#5880509)
For example, while I'm sure this is not a universal, I've heard Nazi concentration camp survivors say that they could never imagine getting a tattoo.


Jews who want to be buried in a Jewish cemetery can't do so if they have voluntary tattoos.
   52. Moses Taylor, aka Hambone Fakenameington Posted: September 18, 2019 at 04:11 PM (#5880514)
Jews who want to be buried in a Jewish cemetery can't do so if they have voluntary tattoos.

There was a funny episode of Curb Your Enthusism about this.

---

Back on topic, Vazquez was charged with more counts of this in PA, and was denied bail for being a flight risk.
   53. Nasty Nate Posted: September 18, 2019 at 04:26 PM (#5880521)
It's been a rough 14 months for the Pirates
   54. Lassus Posted: September 18, 2019 at 04:39 PM (#5880523)
Wokeness is really weird.

I've no doubt only the things you think are worth examining are truly worth examining.
   55. pikepredator Posted: September 18, 2019 at 04:42 PM (#5880524)
It was unclear if the incident was “consensual” or not, investigators said.


I don't like this wording one bit. She was what 13, 14 years old? There's no such thing as "consensual" sex with a minor and I DGAF how one interprets the quote marks. For the investigators to even use that wording - even to imply that her consent would be somehow relevant to the story - is completely missing the point, at best. That has no relevance on what he did. I feel like I must be mis-reading the article and they switched from a young girl to someone who is legally old enough to consent to having sex with someone in their mid-late 20's.

Am I off-base here and missing something obvious just because I'm blinded thinking about my own daughter being treated that way were she a victim of assault? That Unbelievable series on Netflix definitely has me shaken.
   56. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 04:52 PM (#5880529)
I hope someone in the clubhouse comes out with a little about the Crick fight last week. It would be strange if they knew about this a week before any charges were filed.


Crick has already told a local reporter that he had no idea. The previous clubhouse fight was over Crick's refusal to turn down some music he was playing in the clubhouse.
   57. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 04:54 PM (#5880531)
Jews who want to be buried in a Jewish cemetery can't do so if they have voluntary tattoos.


I read a really interesting "ask the rabbi" column one time about a young Jew who was interested in getting a forearm tattoo with his grandfather's concentration camp number, as a way of reclaiming it and expressing pride in the grandfather.
   58. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: September 18, 2019 at 05:18 PM (#5880534)
I read a really interesting "ask the rabbi" column one time about a young Jew who was interested in getting a forearm tattoo with his grandfather's concentration camp number, as a way of reclaiming it and expressing pride in the grandfather.


It's a wacky tradition, among a list of wacky traditions.
The previous clubhouse fight was over Crick's refusal to turn down some music he was playing in the clubhouse.


I may have wanted to punch Crick, too, then.
   59. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 05:32 PM (#5880537)

Jews who want to be buried in a Jewish cemetery can't do so if they have voluntary tattoos.

Yep, I'm Jewish and aware of this. However for the people I'm talking about I believe the aversion goes beyond this and would exist even if there were no such prohibition.
   60. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 18, 2019 at 05:36 PM (#5880538)
Am I off-base here and missing something obvious just because I'm blinded thinking about my own daughter being treated that way were she a victim of assault? That Unbelievable series on Netflix definitely has me shaken.

I don't think you're off-base. For the reasons you give, the investigators/reporters should not have used the term "consensual". They probably should have said they don't know whether the sexual encounter was "forcible". I am not a lawyer, but I believe the distinction between forcible rape of a minor and statutory rape* may be relevant as the two crimes can carry different penalties, depending on the state.

* or sexual assault, which I think is what Vazquez is being charged with.
   61. Joe Bivens, Slack Rumped Rutabaga Head Posted: September 18, 2019 at 05:37 PM (#5880539)
Yep, I'm Jewish and aware of this. However for the people I'm talking about I believe the aversion goes beyond this and would exist even if there were no such prohibition.


Sure. My own personal aversion has nothing to do with being Jewish.
   62. WSPanic Posted: September 18, 2019 at 05:52 PM (#5880546)
Yep, I'm Jewish and aware of this. However for the people I'm talking about I believe the aversion goes beyond this and would exist even if there were no such prohibition.


I'm Jewish as well. While there is an aversion to tattoos by some Jews (no Torah law against it that I know of) - and a small minority of Jewish burial societies do prohibit entry of tattooed burials - most allow it. I know that the two largest Jewish cemeteries in KC allow it. More of a myth than reality, IMO.

   63. Der-K: at 10% emotional investment Posted: September 18, 2019 at 06:00 PM (#5880547)
I also am not Jewish and have a personal aversion to tattoos*, but don't think less of others for having them - that's all a function of their narrative and whatnot and their business.

* FWIW, my gf is and has one and I am a real outlier in her dating history in that I'm not festooned with them. Life's weird.

---

Vazquez has admitted to multiple prosecutable acts, from my layman's reading.

---

The only freedom most of us have from being studied and tracked to death right now is in how uninteresting we are to those other parties.
   64. Howie Menckel Posted: September 18, 2019 at 06:36 PM (#5880552)
first off, thanks to all for your responses. I think this is the sort of tone overall that many of us feared might have disappeared from BBTF for good.

"musing" is indeed correct - but I'm also learning that my post was not sufficiently clear.

I'll tell you a tattoo story.

when this became a bigger "thing" in the 1990s, NBA players liked to talk about what their tattoo means. the explanations ran the gamut.

Dennis Scott has a tattoo that frankly looks exactly like him, which led to confusion. I doubt anyone ever told him, because for him the tattoo was of his father, whom he lost at a young age.

Most NBA players have youth, wealth, and health. Many also are pretty damn handsome.
for those who also are well educated - well, you're pretty much the entire package.

that's why Kendall Gill - who earned a degree in Communications while at the U of Illinois - said he had his tattoo of barbed wire along his upper arm.

with so much going for him, Gill would say, he used to wonder if he ever might begin to forget to appreciate the sacrifices of his ancestors.

but with that tattoo, he guaranteed that he would be reminded of his roots every single day for the rest of his natural life. get up in the morning, get ready to brush your teeth - and there is his reminder.

I thought that was rather profound.
   65. Jose is an Absurd Time Cube Posted: September 18, 2019 at 07:33 PM (#5880556)
Along the lines of what Howie said in 64 is Raheem Sterling, an English soccer player. He has a tattoo of a machine gun (or a rifle, I dunno, one of those) on his leg and he got some criticism last year for it. However he has it because it's the gun that was used to murder his father when Sterling was just two years old.
   66. flournoy Posted: September 19, 2019 at 09:35 AM (#5880655)
I was trying to remember if anyone who had played for the Braves who'd had this sort of legal issue, and the only one I came up with was Luis Polonia, though I couldn't remember any details of his incident. Wikipedia says this:

Rape conviction
Luis Polonia was found guilty of having sexual intercourse with an underage girl, however the judge postponed sentencing until after the 1989 baseball season. "I made a mistake and I'm really sorry for it," Polonia told the judge before the sentence was imposed. "I'm a human being and anybody can make the mistake I made." Polonia, still with the New York Yankees, was sentenced to 60 days in jail and fined $1,500 on the misdemeanor charge of having sex with a 15-year-old girl. Thomas Doherty, Milwaukee County circuit judge, also ordered Polonia to make a $10,000 contribution to the Sinai Samaritan Medical Center's sexual assault treatment center in Milwaukee. Polonia pleaded no contest to the charge of having sexual intercourse with a child. The Yankees ownership made no comment; however, manager Dallas Green said, "It's a shame to see that happen. It's a personal thing. All you can do is warn people. You can't live their lives."

Post-baseball career
Polonia currently runs the Polonia Baseball Academy
In 2016, he was inducted in the Caribbean Baseball Hall of Fame


Is this for real? Is this simply a matter of the times in 1989 versus the times in 2019? On the surface, I don't see anything different between what Polonia did and what Vazquez is accused of doing. Polonia's sentence was delayed for baseball considerations, he was hit with a nominal fine, everyone shrugged it off, and he played another decade in the Major Leagues.
   67. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 09:55 AM (#5880665)
Is this for real? Is this simply a matter of the times in 1989 versus the times in 2019? On the surface, I don't see anything different between what Polonia did and what Vazquez is accused of doing. Polonia's sentence was delayed for baseball considerations, he was hit with a nominal fine, everyone shrugged it off, and he played another decade in the Major Leagues.

13 vs. 15 certainly matters. Also the fact that Vazquez was doing it online and via video. Child pornography is pretty much a strict liability standard of guilt. No real claims to extenuating circumstance can help you.

But a lot of it is changing standards. This is a place where society has gotten more puritanical. Wasn't Jimmy Page actively dating a 14 y.o. in public back in the 1970s? To some degree it's a little weird. A 16 y.o. has sex with a 17 y.o. and no one bats an eye. But if it's a 20 y.o. people freak out.
   68. PreservedFish Posted: September 19, 2019 at 10:04 AM (#5880668)
I mean, in 1979, Woody Allen made a movie about a middle-aged man dating a 15-year old. Things have changed.
   69. Tom Nawrocki Posted: September 19, 2019 at 10:10 AM (#5880671)
On the surface, I don't see anything different between what Polonia did and what Vazquez is accused of doing.


Polonia's offense was a one-time thing, and he claimed one of the girl's friends said she was 19. Vazquez' offense has continued for over a year with a girl who was 13 when this started. Not to excuse what Polonia did, but they seem completely different to me.
   70. bunyon Posted: September 19, 2019 at 10:48 AM (#5880690)
I agree with Tom. The ONLY defense in a situation like this is that you thought the girl was 18. And, that could happen. If a girl dresses the part and says she's 18 (or 19 or 22 or whatever)...that's mitigating to some degree.

But, look, in 1989, Polonia was 26, not 20. Today, Vazquez is 28. This isn't some sort of, well, gee, the line is fuzzy, not sharp. Both guys are way over the line.

Vazquez is farther.


I guess it's accurate to say we're more puritanical but we've been far too lax in this area for far too long. And most guys so engaged still get away with it. (Or get slaps on the wrist).
   71. Gary Truth Serum Posted: September 19, 2019 at 11:03 AM (#5880701)
Polonia also wasn't getting text messages from the girl's mother leaving no doubt as to her age. But even in 1989 I remember discussing with my friends that I couldn't believe that he wouldn't face disciplinary action from Fay Vincent. Maybe there was a reason that Vincent couldn't act on that, but the point is that even then we thought it was a serious offense.

Ten years later Mark Chmura was accused of sexual assault of his 17 year old babysitter, which was big news where I lived in Wisconsin. He was acquitted and his career was all but over due to injury, but it didn't seem to me that the allegation was treated any less seriously.
   72. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 11:04 AM (#5880702)
Ten years later Mark Chmura was accused of sexual assault of his 17 year old babysitter, which was big news where I lived in Wisconsin. He was acquitted and his career was all but over due to injury, but it didn't seem to me that the allegation was treated any less seriously.

Sexual assault is totally different that statutory rape.
   73. . Posted: September 19, 2019 at 11:07 AM (#5880704)
I mean, in 1979, Woody Allen made a movie about a middle-aged man dating a 15-year old. Things have changed.


She was 17 (*), but the exaggeration is no surprise.

Wokeness is really weird. Quite untruthful, too.

(*) And turned 18.
   74. Lassus Posted: September 19, 2019 at 11:18 AM (#5880716)
16 when the movie was being shot, if that means anything to whatever batshit point you're making.
   75. bunyon Posted: September 19, 2019 at 11:20 AM (#5880718)
(*) And turned 18.

See?! He didn't kill her. Totally a standup guy.
   76. jmurph Posted: September 19, 2019 at 11:36 AM (#5880732)
Who was the creeper who used to post here all the time in defense of, errrr, "relationships" with children?

Boy this place has attracted some real winners over the years.
   77. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 11:51 AM (#5880737)

There are more details in this story from yesterday's Post-Gazette. They do not look good for Vazquez:

Pirates pitcher Felipe Vazquez on Tuesday admitted to police that he had sexual contact with a 13-year-old girl, according to a criminal complaint released Wednesday in Westmoreland County....

In an interview with police on Tuesday morning, Mr. Vazquez, now 28, called the incident “sex but not really,” according to the complaint, because he could not fully insert his penis....

On Tuesday, Mr. Vazquez told police the girl reached out to him on Instagram and said he initially refused to communicate with her because of her age, according to the complaint. He said she appeared to be 16 or younger, according to the complaint.

The legal age for consent in Pennsylvania is 16.

Mr. Vazquez told police the girl sent him naked photos, and he sent her sexually explicit photos and videos in return, according to the complaint.


So, he allegedly knew she was underage but he still had sex with her. And admitted it to police.

I don't know all the details of the Polonia case but I think Polonia would get harsher treatment (from the criminal justice system, MLB and the public) if the same thing happened today.
   78. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 11:53 AM (#5880738)
Ten years later Mark Chmura was accused of sexual assault of his 17 year old babysitter, which was big news where I lived in Wisconsin. He was acquitted and his career was all but over due to injury, but it didn't seem to me that the allegation was treated any less seriously.


Another somewhat relevant baseball example: The Padres had a (French Canadian) pitcher named Eric Cyr in their minor league system, and in 2001 he was convicted of sexual assault against a minor in an airplane bathroom during an international flight from New Zealand to Los Angeles. Prior to the assault, he passed her a note that said, "“what’s up sexy, you are very cut (sic) it is bad that you are 15 the law is very strick (sic) about that kind of stuff but I may have to do an execption (sic) this time …"

Cyr pled guilty to one misdemeanor, served 30 days in jail, wasn't deported, briefly made it to the majors in 2002, continued pitching in affiliated ball through 2008, and also had international pro stints in Taiwan and Canada. He even represented Canada in international competitions, during the 2006 WBC and the 2004 and 2008 Olympics.
   79. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 11:54 AM (#5880739)
Who was the creeper who used to post here all the time in defense of, errrr, "relationships" with children?


Was that Kevin, or am I thinking of someone else?
   80. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 12:03 PM (#5880744)

16 when the movie was being shot, if that means anything to whatever batshit point you're making.

I think his point was that the character in the movie is 17. Which is still a bit creepy IMO but less so than 15 and was probably legal at the time (maybe still is, I don't know and am not interested in having that question in my search history at work).
   81. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 12:04 PM (#5880746)


Was that Kevin, or am I thinking of someone else?


I believe it was Morty Causa -- apologies if I am misremembering.
   82. jmurph Posted: September 19, 2019 at 12:04 PM (#5880747)
Was that Kevin, or am I thinking of someone else?

I do not remember that being Kevin. I want to say the name began with M but I'm blanking.
   83. Lassus Posted: September 19, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5880748)
#81 is correct.
   84. gef, talking mongoose & vexatious litigant Posted: September 19, 2019 at 12:05 PM (#5880749)
Definitely Morty.

Whose last visit here was 3/25. He'd had some health problems, I believe cancer-related, & I'm hoping his absence here doesn't mean the worst.
   85. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 12:07 PM (#5880751)
I think his point was that the character in the movie is 17. Which is still a bit creepy IMO but less so than 15 and was probably legal at the time (maybe still is, I don't know and am not interested in having that question in my search history at work).

16 or 17 is certainly the gray area. It's where most countries recognize a person's ability to consent to sex. It then gets awkward trying to limit who they can consent to sex with, by the age of the other person.
   86. bunyon Posted: September 19, 2019 at 12:10 PM (#5880752)
It then gets awkward trying to limit who they can consent to sex with, by the age of the other person.

Legally, maybe. Not ethically.
   87. PreservedFish Posted: September 19, 2019 at 12:13 PM (#5880754)
I thought the character was 15. I was wrong.
   88. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 12:18 PM (#5880756)
Legally, maybe. Not ethically.

Ethically too. If 21 and 41 is OK, how is 17 and 22 wrong? People mature at vastly different rates, and through most of history 16-18 y.o.s were full fledged adults.
   89. DCA Posted: September 19, 2019 at 01:29 PM (#5880775)
Half your age, plus 7. If you go down to the day, it has the advantage of a couple never being able to age out of compliance. And the useful corollary that under age 14 you can't have sex with anyone.

I'd say it would actually be better policy if that were universally codified in law than whatever constellation of statutes we have now.
   90. phredbird Posted: September 19, 2019 at 01:30 PM (#5880776)

not taking any particular stance, but only offering some clarity.

per wikipedia:

mariel hemingway was born in 1961.

manhattan was released in 1979, so it was probably shot in 78 or early 79.

in the movie, allen's character is 42, hemingway's character is 17. so she was in high school, but not a freshman or anything like that.

personally, i find allen creepy, especially thinking about this movie and i regret that i found it charming and likeable back when it came out. it took a while for me to come around to this, because i admired his craft. but it really did become obvious after a while that he had a little problem with this kind of thing; he continually cast himself as a kind of nebbish who was somehow irresistible for women and eventually i could not escape the feeling that he was just exploiting his position as an 'auteur' for kicks and so that he could get next to attractive women. hitchcock also did something similar with a couple of his actresses.

morty causa is, IIRC correctly a fellow cajun. well ... i went to high school in south louisiana. cajun country. again: i am a cajun. i grew up around cajuns. the cajuns are in some respects a rather uh, unpolished rural culture with roots in some, shall we say, rudimentary village viewpoints. older men marrying young girls was not unknown even in our grandparents time because life was tough for a lot of them, and getting the girls married off was one way for the family to relieve economic pressure. my grandfather was one of 13 siblings on a peanut farm in the river parishes. i can't imagine.

however. the times are not as desperate as they once were, and so, yeah, it's not something that should be condoned or encouraged. maybe morty has had some time to think about it, or maybe not. but i ain't throwing the first stone.
   91. flournoy Posted: September 19, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5880781)
I'd say [Age/2 + 7] would actually be better policy if that were universally codified in law than whatever constellation of statutes we have now.


If you're talking about a situation where one or both are minors, then maybe, though I haven't exactly thought it all through. I would be totally against restricting two consenting adults, even if it fell outside the guideline and it made me personally uncomfortable.
   92. phredbird Posted: September 19, 2019 at 01:41 PM (#5880782)

um, all i meant to say is that i kind of know where morty was coming from.

so yeah, actually i am taking a stance. i find the old man/young girl thing deeply unethical even if its legal.

and vazquez needs to be dealt with for sure, that stuff is beyond the pale.
   93. PreservedFish Posted: September 19, 2019 at 01:59 PM (#5880791)
I sure don't know where Morty was coming from, but IIRC he justified his stance with a kind of Masculo-Darwinist argument. Hey baby, it's the most natural thing in the world.
   94. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: September 19, 2019 at 02:07 PM (#5880793)
I am very much an acolyte of the [your age/2]+7 criteria... I think it's highly effective.

I likewise agree that generally - the old/young (I wouldn't limit it to one direction) seems likely to be unethical... but I'm willing to admit exceptions may exist. One possible one that comes to mind - I think Jerry Seinfeld married his current wife when she was 19 and he was about 40. However, they've been married now for 20 years and at least so far as I know/wikipedia tells me, have since had three kids, both are professionally successful, and seem to be happy and as well adjusted as famous/rich people can be.

I think the key to the ethical question comes down to whether it's actually an equal emotional partnership or it's just physical + some elements of unresolved emotional issues with one or both parties serving more as an enabler thereof.
   95. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 02:09 PM (#5880794)
Yeah, I don't want to sound absolutist about it--I'm sure some of these relationships are fine and healthy--but it's hard for me to see a 17-18 year-old with a middle-aged guy (or gal) as anything other than a bit weird, and my perspective hasn't changed much as I approach middle age myself. And especially (but not always) since a lot of those relationships are also employer-employee or teacher-student. There was definitely a time when popular culture romanticized relationships like that but I don't know any of those movies that were made by or from the perspective of the young women.
   96. pikepredator Posted: September 19, 2019 at 02:10 PM (#5880796)
Hey baby, it's the most natural thing in the world.


not to pile on (always said immediately before piling on) . . . it's also totally natural in many animal species - including primates - for males to kill the offspring of other males.
   97. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 02:16 PM (#5880799)
One possible one that comes to mind - I think Jerry Seinfeld married his current wife when she was 19 and he was about 40. However, they've been married now for 20 years and at least so far as I know/wikipedia tells me, have since had three kids, both are professionally successful, and seem to be happy and as well adjusted as famous/rich people can be.

Not to disagree with your overall point, but that example is not correct. Seinfeld did date a 17-y.o. high school/college student* when he was 38, but he met his wife when she was 27 (and already married).

* who seems to be a well-adjusted, successful adult now based on Wikipedia.
   98. Howie Menckel Posted: September 19, 2019 at 02:16 PM (#5880800)
I think Jerry Seinfeld married his current wife when she was 19 and he was about 40.

he dated a 17-year-old when he was 38.

he began dating his wife when he was 44 and she was 27. now they are 65 and 48.

EDIT: WOW, that is a Coke owed by mere seconds!
   99. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: September 19, 2019 at 02:23 PM (#5880804)

he began dating his wife when he was 44 and she was 27.

So he broke the Age/2 + 7 rule :)
   100. Zonk is not as Outlandish as he could be Posted: September 19, 2019 at 02:26 PM (#5880806)
Oops!

OK, I revoke my exception and obviously merged two things.... while also failing at math!
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