User Comments, Suggestions, or Complaints | Privacy Policy | Terms of Service | Advertising
Buy MLB playoff tickets, plus 2011 World Series, 2011 ALCS tickets and NLCS game tickets. We also have Texas Rangers playoff schedule, tickets to Red Sox games and Yankees game tickets. Plus, buy Phillies baseball tickets, Tigers playoff tickets and the biggies like ALDS baseball tickets and 2011 NLDS tickets. |
Demarini, Easton and TPX Baseball Bats
|
AllianceTickets.com has cheap MLB Tickets. Get all your Colorado Rockies Tickets, Seattle Mariners Tickets, San Francisco Giants Tickets and all your favorite baseball tickets here. We also carry cheap Denver Broncos Tickets, Seattle Seahawks Tickets and Denver Nuggets Tickets. |
Page rendered in 0.6005 seconds
55 querie(s) executed
Reader Comments and Retorts
Go to end of page
Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.
On the other hand, Volstad and the Marlins are idiots, too.
Morgan's antics after the brawl were asinine. Any sympathy I felt for him went out the window on that one.
BRICK: Yeah, there were horses and a man on fire and I killed a guy with a trident.
RON: Yeah, I saw that. Brick killed a guy.
BRICK: Yeah, I stabbed a man on the heart.
RON: Brick, I've been meaning to talk to you about that. You should probably find a safe house or close relative you can stay with because you're probably wanted for murder.
The Umps didn't want to get clotheslined.
EDIT: Bravo NJ in DC! Bravo!
As we saw the other day, when the Rockies and Braves blew 9-run leads on the same day, there's no such thing as a safe lead, and there's no such thing as being completely out of a game. This is the majors, not little league - there's no slaughter rule. If you want the other team to stop trying to win, just forfeit the damn game so that everyone can go home.
It is a good thing he is just as valuable as Adam Dunn or he'd be out of a job right now.
Any baseball play is acceptable at any time during a baseball game. The problem with Morgan lately is that he's been making non-baseball plays in order to injure opponents. Stealing bases, no matter the score, does not justify violent retribution.
Honestly, Riggleman should have sat Morgan for his stupid and reckless play on Hayes the previous night. And Morgan certainly shouldn't play another game this season at this point.
It seems that being anti-unwritten rules is the primer groupthink. I generally agree with it, but we shouldnt adhere to it like a dogma.
In all likelihood, Morgan wasn't stealing those bases as part of 'trying to win'. He stole right after getting plunked, and the Marlins obviously took it as if it was provocation. I trust their interpretation more than some people who just blindly hate unwritten rules.
Unless Alex Rodriguez is involved.
It's pretty clear that the Marlins were more interested in hating on Nyjer Morgan than anything else here. That's not cool.
I don't have any problem with unwritten rules, provided they are the actual consensus of the people playing the game. Those that are understood by the vast majority of participants work just fine (just as they do in all walks of life). The problem is when there is significant disagreement over whether something qualifies.
For instance, I doubt there are many players who would agree that you can't steal bases down 11 runs. That seems to be little more than a cover for "we still think Morgan's an #######, and the one plunking didn't really satisfy our need for retribution."
Hayes wasn't blocking the plate and had to catch the throw up high. Morgan would have scored the go-ahead run if he had slid, but he decided it was better to deck the catcher and be out. It was not a baseball play; it was an opportunity to be a macho man, even though it hurt his team's chances of winning.
He had every right to steal. Riggleman said it best - the Marlins don't get to decide when the Nationals steal.
Morgan had no choice but to charge the mound after getting thrown at twice. Sanchez laid him out though, and should be facing a pretty hefty suspension himself.
Okay, I can see this as more of a context thing than an unwritten rules thing. But do you think they would have tried to throw at him a 2nd time if he hadn't stolen those 2 bases?
If he hadn't run up the Cardinals' catcher's back a few days ago, missing the plate entirely like an idiot, even though there was no play at the plate and the catcher wasn't in the way of the plate, I might give Morgan the benefit of the doubt. But he did deck the Cardinals' catcher for no reason, so I read his needless running over of Hayes as both a stupid and a reckless play.
If so, it was well executed, though not perfect. Sanchez should have gotten there a tad earlier. But clearly Sanchez is slower than Morgan.
However cool I thought the play was, I'd suspend them all, including Morgan, 10 games.
How about getting up out of the pile and acting like a d-bag to the opponents crowd, Very WWE-ish.
They hit him, then they didn't hit him, and that warrants charging the mound? That was almost as sissisified as Manny threatening Roger Clemens for a high fastball over the plate. If Derek Jeter charged the mound every time he was hit, then *almost* hit, he'd have been banned from baseball.
If Morgan really wants to be a fighter, he should go out and fight another fighter. I'm guessing he's not as interested in fighting as he'd like you to believe.
"Morgan occasionally refers to himself as "Tony Plush", which he says is his 'gentleman's name'."
????
Here's the play in question. I'm calling b*llshit on your theory. Morgan is on 2B. The batter chops a ball back up the middle. Morgan assumes Ramirez, the shortstop, will attempt to turn two and rounds 3B toward home. Ramirez doesn't think he has a shot at the double play and eats the ball at second. A second later both Ramirez and Morgan realize there's a potential play at the plate. Morgan puts his head down, hung out halfway down the line. At that point, he's made his decision to dislodge the ball rather than slide. It's a common baseball play.
Ramirez fires home. The throws a little high. Because of the high throw Morgan would have been better served sliding. Hayes wouldn't have been able to get the tag down. But he's already made his decision two steps back and carries through with the play. (From the video, he's still safe, but because it's a collision and the catcher hangs on, the ump calls him out.) This is a common, run-of-the-mill baseball play. It happens all the time. It's unfortunate that Hayes gets hurt - that's always a risk on hard plays at the plate - but it's part of the game. If this play had happened without the previous week's weirdness with Morgan, it wouldn't have been a story outside of Hayes' unfortunate injury.
But hey, if you don't believe me, ask the Marlins:
"If he would have slid at home plate, he would have been safe. Hayes was more on the right side of the plate... Then again, if the runner has his mind set already, that might have happened." - Edwin Rodriguez, Marlins manager
"I would have said it was clean, if I hadn't seen what he had done earlier in the week in St. Louis." - Chad Tracy, Marlins 3B
"But I think he had made his mind up when he came around third that he was going to hit him. You can't really get upset right there, because anybody could have made the decision to hit him. The only thing that kind of fires you up is you've seen the way he's been playing the last week or so." - Tracy
So it's pretty clear that the play itself wasn't really all that questionable. The only reason the Marlins got "fired up" about it was because of a play that happened a week before in STL. If that "fired up" state contributed to this fight - and I suspect it did - you basically have a pitcher (Volstad) going vigilante on a player (Morgan) for no reason at all. Volstad should be suspended at least as long as Jonhny Cueto was for the Reds/Cards brouhaha. Sanchez deserves a *very long* suspension for the flying blindside tackle.
Better than "Ron Mexico".
Also better because gentlemen don't spread herpes.
Hard to say. I'd guess they were still pissed at Morgan because of the play from the night before and were eager to interpret anything he did as justification for further confrontation with him. The steals gave them the excuse they were looking for.
Look at it from the other way. If nothing had happened the previous night, and Morgan had singled and then stolen second and third with his team down 14-3, are you sure the Marlins would have thrown behind him?
People are rationalizing based on fandom and a previous dislike of Morgan. This is completely on the Marlins.
Certainly proved he is a jackass, but it doesn't mean that this was his fault.
In fact, running when you're way behind isn't an unwritten rule. It's a written rule. It's called "Defensive indifference."
All of that said, Volstad and Sanchez were way out of line and should be suspended for a long time. Even if retribution were called for (and I'm not a big fan of it), it was satisfied with the first HBP. The subsequent steals did not in any way justify further vengeance.
Again, I think the Marlins set him up to have Sanchez nail him. Which, on the one hand I like, and on the other think should be punished pretty heavily.
A guy that's just been plunked for no good reason, and then thrown behind for no good reason, and then dog-piled by the entire opposing team (for no good reason) is emotional and antagonistic afterwards? Wow. That's shocking.
Maybe they were offended by the sheer stupidity? Unless the Marlins weren't holding him on, hard to see how anyone can justify running with that score. And Morgan, between pickoffs and caught stealing, has been a pretty terrible runner this year. With all his other incidents and his general lack of talent, hard to see him playing Major League after this year.
I imagine if I had the amount of adrenaline going that he did, given the situation, I may have done something similar. Not sure, but it's not fair to assess it as though he was walking off the field following a pop up or something.
EDIT: Carbonated beverage to 37.
Morgan made a standard baseball play. The Marlins catcher was hurt. The next game, they plunked him. He took his base. Then the Marlins threw at him AGAIN for no damned reason at all. Then Gaby Sanchez broke out the serious violence and the entire team dog-piled the guy. This incident is completely on the Marlins and they should be severely punished by the league office. This is worse than the Cards/Reds dustup from last month.
I think you might be right. They had to have known that throwing at him would make him do something, and most likely he would charge the mound. That could explain why Sanchez was there and ready.
The Marlins were holding him one, which just tells you that they were looking for an excuse to go after him again.
Steve was in the restroom. He missed the whole thing.
Well, it was a Marlins game, so in his defense, he probably figured nobody was watching.
Point spivey, my reading comprehension skills failed me on that one.
Some fights you can say who was the starter, some both sides are to blame. Morgan and Marlins are both to blame here, and there is nothing gained by having discussions about who is most to blame.
My only opinion on the matter is Morgan is a punk, that's derived from last night and events from earlier.
If your instincts are so bad that you can't help making needlessly dangerous contact with opponents, then you shouldn't be on the field. This isn't hockey; you should not run over another player unless it's completely unavoidable (which is to say that he has positioned himself in the baseline). Not only could Morgan have avoided running over Hayes, but it would have even been the smart play!
Morgan made a standard baseball play. The Marlins catcher was hurt. The next game, they plunked him. He took his base. Then the Marlins threw at him AGAIN for no damned reason at all. Then Gaby Sanchez broke out the serious violence and the entire team dog-piled the guy. This incident is completely on the Marlins and they should be severely punished by the league office. This is worse than the Cards/Reds dustup from last month.
I agree with this entirely, except for the first sentence. Responsibility for the brawl lies with the Marlins, as Morgan had clearly taken his medicine with the first HBP. The steals have nothing to do with it.
I'd bet that the Nationals had a better chance of winning than a runner reaching base on a hard grounder directly at the Shortstop.
Don't people get mad when players give up in the latter situation?
No. Nyjer Morgan may be a "punk" but he is not responsible for this fight. This is all on the Marlins. This damning of both houses crap is just wrong.
There are any number of players whose instincts and skills might rationally disqualify them from "the field," yet they still play. This is you being overly emotional and letting a dislike of a player color your ability to view the facts. Morgan had every right to charge the mound. The Marlins are in the wrong here.
Helms, who I assume was speaking for himself only, said that he thought the matter was settled after they hit Morgan in the 4th. He said that the stolen bases fired up the team and led to the brawl and goes on to say Morgan acted unprofessionally and that he has no respect for him.
Morgan's antics after being led off the field and his previous incident in St. Louis do not show a positive side of him. However, there is nothing wrong with Morgan stealing those two bases, which I believe led to Volstad throwing behind him and, if I was Morgan, I'd be pretty pissed off, too. As other commentators have pointed out, the game certainly wasn't out of reach for the Nationals at that point, given comebacks from the past couple of weeks, and he has a much greater chance of scoring from 3rd with one out than from 1st. The Marlins have to know that they can't hit Morgan and simply have him stop trying to help his team win.
The hit by pitch was the "punishment" for the Hayes play and Morgan accepted it. The "punishment" doesn't further extend to Morgan acting like a pylon on the bases or not trying to help his team win. If the Marlins don't expect the Nationals to forfeit the game, then shouldn't expect them to stop trying to score.
If you're down 10+ runs in a game, taking an extra base is largely irrelevant. If he was caught stealing in either scenario, losing an out when down that many runs is huge. The risk is way too high for the reward of getting an extra base when you need so many runs. Attempting to steal was not benefiting his team in that scenario.
Probably not, but it's close. I'd think the chances of an error on a hard hit ball to short are still greater than rallying from an 11-run deficit.
Your overall point still stands.
I hadn't seen the play, so I watched it this morning. It certainly looked like the catcher was standing on the plate to me, and if he Morgan had slid it would have either been between the catchers legs or he would have potentially taken his legs out from under him.
Honestly, I had almost no opinion of Nyjer Morgan until this past week. I did see a little clip of him hitting that Cardinals catcher and thinking it was a dumb, unnecessary thing to do. Then I saw the replay of the Hayes hit in the context of brawl coverage and thought it was one of the dumbest plays I've seen all year. I went from thinking pretty much nothing of Morgan to believing him to be either a moron or a maniac.
Morgan had every right to charge the mound. The Marlins are in the wrong here.
I agree.
I don't think anyone is really debating the wisdom of trying to steal down by that many runs, just whether its acceptable to try.
People are rationalizing based on fandom and a previous dislike of Morgan. This is completely on the Marlins.
None of this happened in a vacuum though. It's mostly on the Marlins, but if Morgan doesn't try to kill Hayes the night before, the Marlins wouldn't have felt the need to get back at the turd.
I think he easily could have pulled the slide-and-slap maneuver. Either way, decking Hayes was, at best, clumsy and ill-advised.
Not according to the Marlins - who felt that stealing two bases (which was not a pure baseball strategy move) was Morgan NOT accepting it.
Morgan WAS a hockey player. Maybe that's got something to do with his aggression.
It was still the 4th inning when he stole the bases. All it would take is a sac fly to score him.
Hard to see that when Morgan was the one that charged the mound and threw the first punch. Plenty of batters have been plunked ocee or twice in a game before, do all of them charge the mound? Everyone seems to look past the fact that Volsted hit 2 other batters in the game, so it's not like he was practicing perfect control.
I think it was technically clean, but probably foolish and unnecessary. It wasn't his only option and it wasn't his best option. It was a dumb play.
I just saw the video of that St. Louis play. That's some pretty damning character evidence.
Volstad pretty obviously threw behind Morgan on purpose, though I guess you can disagree on that. That would have been the end of it if he hadn't charged.
All this being said, anyone who would take away the aesthetic excellence of Gaby Sanchez's flying clothesline is a robot. That was greatness, friends.
EDIT: I shouldn't say obviously if I also hold that reasonable people can disagree.
C'mon Hokie, not even the Marlins are trotting out the old favorite "our guy was just wild that day defense," because they know everyone will see through it here.
Morgan is a victim of his own rep and his previous actions (which are on him, by the way)
But Chris Berman is also an idiot and the things he says are stupid.
Morgan only went after Volstad because he hates Scandinavians.
With all of this talk of unwritten rules, it seems like people are forgetting one of the most important ones -- a pitcher should never, ever throw *behind* a batter.
I think everyone is at fault here, but the Marlins certainly deserve most of the blame. And I agree that this was probably a set up for Sanchez.
A lot of people would have said that.
Those people are idiots and the things they say are stupid.
C'mon Hokie, not even the Marlins are trotting out the old favorite "our guy was just wild that day defense," because they know everyone will see through it here.
I don't' believe it either, but if people are going to claim asinine things like "this is entirely the Marlins, none of it is on Morgan" then I just figured I could throw out equally unbelievable statements.
Also, Riggleman is probably the last MLB manager I'd want to fight. Dude's jacked. Or Kirk Gibson maybe.
Who knew BBTF had so many die-hard Marlins or Nationals fans (or haters)? It wouldn't make a shred of difference to me if both teams were contracted, I had no opinion of Mogan due to complete apathy regarding replacement-level players on basement-dwelling NL teams, and I still think Morgan acted like a jerk and only received a small fraction of what he deserved for assaulting Volstad.
Sure, here. But a lot of people outside BTF don't believe Chris Berman is an idiot. I know, it's unfathomable.
Morgan, by behaving like an all-around hoodlum the last few weeks, has generated an atmosphere of suspicion and tension around himself. The Marlins, responding disproportionately to his bad reputation, took the minor provocation of his steals and unjustifiably sparked off a violent altercation. Morgan brings bad vibes with him, but the Marlins are responsible for this particular ugly incident.
Is that a fair way of putting it?
Not only did they put all the blame on Morgan, after playing it back several times, they began to rip the Nationals' third base coach for jumping into the action, when it was obvious that he came in to try to pull people off of Morgan, and then lost his footing and fell onto the pile.
As for Sanchez's clothesline of Morgan, or the entire team jumping on him and practically tearing his uniform off, they said nothing.
Nice job, guys. I'd assume Hawk Harrelson thought you did a great job.
At some point, I did hear it mentioned that Morgan had offered no apology or well-wishes to Hayes. I do not know if that is true or not. If it is, it's another drop in the "Morgan is a jerk" bucket, but still doesn't justify throwing at him over the steals.
Does any of this happen if Morgan doesn't insist on "hulking up" and charging the mound after a pitch doesn't hit him?
You are entitled to your opinions, even if they are mouth-breathingly stupid.
There is no god, either.
And here...we...go...
Just horrible. Awful.
But there is Mariano Rivera, which is close enough.
It's better. We know for a fact that Joe Girardi can pick up the phone and Mariano will get the message and come forth in all his glory. If your god were so reliable there'd be no such thing as Atheism.
My God is Neil Hamburger. He always delivers.
FWIW, the play occurred in front of my own eyes at Nationals Park, not Busch. It was the game that also featured the hotly disputed outside-the-baseline call on Ian Desmond's bunt.
Pure homerism here. The second pitch was behind Morgan. Clearly an intent to hit him. Whereas Jeter gets hit because he a) crowds the plate, and b) will half-swing at every pitch, even the ones right in on his hands.
Morgan is a clown that probably deserved to be thrown at. But that doesn't mean the Marlins didn't play their part to bring the brawl about. It takes two to dance.
No way. Sanchez did what he had to do, you can't let someone charge at and throw blows at your pitcher. The catchers and infielders have a duty to step in, even if the pitcher started the fight for BS reasons.
Also, how stupid was it of Volstad to throw punches at Morgan while they were lying on top of each other on the ground? Protect your arm kid.
I can do the Robot all by myself.
My favourite guy, however, was the second Nationals into the pile who jumped on Volstad. It looked like he was in it for real instead of trying to break up the fight. He didn't have to run in there so fast and he was just as outnumbered. That was manliest of all.
Yankee Redneck is totally out to lunch on this one. Jeter gets hit because he takes advantage of the rules by diving over the plate. Jeter deserves to get hit. It's the price he pays for his success. If I was in charge I'd modify the rules so that the Jeter's and Youkilis' of the world weren't awarded a base when it is their own fault they get hit. This is a completely different situation.
So if I'm commission I say that Volstad gets 14 games (which is really only two starts) as the instigator of the brawl, Morgan gets five games (roughly half the punishment of Volstad), and Sanchez gets three games. Obviously it won't happen that way but that's because MLB has no sense of justice (or math--the first four games of any starting pitchers punishment is no punishment at all).
I don't see how I can be a "homer" when I don't care if either the Marlins or Nationals were liquidated and their ownership sold into slavery, but of course I'm the homer and you're the guy who says Jeter had it coming, so what's a fella to do?
It takes one to charge the mound and instigate a fight. The umpire ejected the pitcher, there's really no contingency plan in the rules for charging the mound if you don't feel the umpire was emphatic enough when ejecting a pitcher who didn't hit you.
You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.
<< Back to main