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That appeared to be Listach, the third-base coach.
No, they got fired up because of Morgan going out of his way to take out Brett Hayes earlier in the series, causing a separated shoulder.
Homer.
I guess Morgan deserves to not get hit, since he didn't get hit.
Umm, it actually makes you *more* of a homer. If you don't care about others teams, you're more of a homer. If you decide to twist what I said into "Jeter deserved to get hit," that's also homer-y.
Again, Jeter gets hit because he hangs out close to the plate and doesn't get out of the way. They're not trying to throw at him; they're trying to pitch inside.
This would have actually been the third-base coach, Pat Listach, himself still pretty young and wanting to be like all the other adults on the field.
EDIT: Coke to JE, running in from the bullpen.
I would think it would make you more dispassionate and pragmatic, and thus less of a homer allowing his opinion to be influenced by favoritism.
As dumb as brawls are, this was pretty funny since you can just hear the synapses firing in Pat's head. "My career sucked, and I'm going to take it out on YOU!!!!"
At the risk of starting a new bench-clearing brawl, Lassus, make mine a Pepsi Max!
When a player gets hit by a pitch, he normally tries to make the other team "pay" in some way. HR hitters like to hit one after being hit or thrown at. Morgan isn't much of a HR hitter so he stole a couple of bases. But it's not like he stole 2nd base to see how far into left field he could knock a middle-infielder. Same for the steal of third. The Marlins just didn't like that Morgan paid them back a bit, so they escalated the situation by throwing behind him. That said, I'm not a big fan of charging the mound - better just to let the pitcher get thrown out, especially if you're not actually hit. However, the players' code seems to demand a mound charge in such circumstances, so I won't fault Morgan that much. I'd give the Marlins the larger share of the suspensions, but MLB doesn't seem to get the nuances right in this type of situation.
Depends on what you mean by warrants, but that's the kind of thing that caused fights in the early part of the last century. (Casey Stengel and Bob Meusel come to mind as hitters who objected to bunched HBP or brush-backs)
I really don't think we should just the appropriateness of a given action in a sporting event by what was acceptable or commonplace in the early part of the last century. As it is you risk goading me into more tedious boxing anecdotes.
How'd that work out for them?
It's possible that running over the Marlins' catcher was a stupid tactical decision made in the moment, but to me it looked like he just decided to plow the guy. Nyjer isn't usually that decisive when he's doing something stupid - he hesitates for a second after making his break, like his brain is trying to manually pull back his body from doing whatever he just told it to do.
Weren't they supposed to improve their tangibles too? A -1.5 WAR player over 116 games shouldn't be your starting CFer, let alone hit leadoff.
Now Hurricane hop. Hurricane hop. Hurricane hop. Now shake somethin', shake somethin', shake somethin'.
Well there are small but real benefits if they have to hold. If you won't run, they don't have to hold.
But I think Morgan was being held. Which moves the break even point up even higher.
You also need your starting CF to be able to play CF, which no seems to think Milledge can anymore.
That sure looked like a "I'll show you how we do it in the Western Hockey League" moment to me.
Haha, I was just about to comment that it is no wonder that Gaby knows how to brawl since he went to "da U".
Volstad was a Miami commitment out of HS before turning pro too.
Then they are stupid. That was a clean play.
It was not a pure baseball strategy move in the sense that Morgan's motivation was likely partly to provoke the Marlins, but it was within the rules and it did improve their chances to score a run. He was trying to improve his chances of scoring a run and I don't understand how the Marlins can expect him to not.
What has changed is the reaction of the other players. Up until sometime in the 50s if a player had a philosophical disagreement with a pitcher they were generally free to debate the matter without anybody else getting involved. Ty Cobb/Babe Ruth (in the wake of Meusel/King Cole) being the main exception. Even then, nobody seems to have gotten in between Cole and Meusel. Of course Cobb/Ruth was manager/guy who thought manager ordered the HBP and not pitcher/hitter. Plus the dynamics have to be different when they involve the two biggest names in the game.
EDIT: Minor typo fix
Let's be fair!
How many Nats fans are there? How many Marlins fans are there?
There are probably more Blue Jays fans taking up positions on both sides of the argument than there are Nats/Marlins fans in this thread.
Well, they're not using a corner outfield slot on a guy slugging .378, so at least that part is working out.
What I lack in quantity I make up for in quality.
WAR, 2010:
Hanrahan, 1.1
Burnett, 0.9
Milledge, 0.7
Morgan, 0.3
Yeah, it's working out like a dream for the Nats. I especially like the part where they gave up the best reliever AND the best outfielder in the trade.
I think it might have changed in the very early 1960's, right around the time that fading veteran Billy Martin sucker punched young Jim Brewer, breaking his jaw and nearly ending his career before it got started. After that, players on the field seem to have become more protective of batters getting close to their pitchers.
I can't even remember if I was for or against the trade, but they've basically swapped one piece of #### outfielder for another piece of #### outfielder and one okayish reliever for another okayish reliever. If that's gratifying from a Bucco perspective, hey, let your flag fly.
And to repeat someone else: No one forced Morgan to charge the mound. Volstad would have been tossed anyway, which should have been "revenge" enough if Morgan had a single brain cell, which he evidently doesn't.
So is Farmer/Cowens. That seems to be the point where ritualistic charging of the mound enters the game. There was a clear feeling among hitters that the league wasn't doing enough to discourage head-hunters. While nobody took it as far as Cowens (who waited until an infield groundout before heading to the mound -- nobody could intervene then), it seems to me that there was a collective decision that they needed to take a stand.
The fact that this took place in an exhibition game may have something to do with it, no?
As long as the Pirates get the better player in both 1-for-1s (and they did), I'm fine with it.
Because guys who can put up a 12+ K/9 grow on trees, right?
Morgan would've been safe if he slid, so slamming the catcher was both dumb and dickish.
EDIT: If the throw's high (he had time to see that), you can slide around the catcher's leg, or you can go straight in and try to flip him -- both legit. Morgan did neither.
EDIT: Rose/Fosse is at about 1:30 here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c0Wiy5DJRJw
The ball wasn't there yet, but Fosse was blocking the plate. To me, that's still a clean hit.
Furthermore, the Marlins don't get to bring the Cardinals C collision into this. They aren't the enforcers; the league is (and to some extent the Cardinals). What's next -- are teams allowed to deck players because they stood at home plate admiring a home run in the previous series?
With that in mind, the Marlins nevertheless hit Morgan the next day, ahead by 10 runs. Morgan took his base without incident, then stole 2nd and 3rd. Unhappy, Volstad then threw behind Morgan the next time up, sparking a brawl.
How could this possibly be Morgan's fault?
Again, the Marlins (and other baseball people) view the stealing of 2 bases as taking his base with incident. And Morgan likely knew that they would feel that way.
It depends on your definition of "clean". Morgan was trying to take out Hayes on that play. Replay shows that a slide would have been more effective at scoring the run. And Morgan didn't even touch the plate.
To me it's an intent thing. Morgan may well have believed, in the moment, that his best chance of scoring was to bowl over Hayes. If so, he was probably wrong, but that doesn't make the play itself dirty.
Now, if he came around third going, "I'm going to wreck this guy, scoring be damed," it's a dirty play.
Of course, it's also possible that he decided "I can score either way, so why not wreck the catcher because I feel like it?" In that case, I suppose it's not necessarily dirty, but he should expect to get thrown at. Which, I think, he did, based on his being hit and then trotting to first (prior to his two steals).
At best, Morgan's playing a smashmouth style, which is perhaps to be commended by some people. At worst, he's a Nyjerk.
He attacked a pitcher.
Getting back to your underlying point, assuming there was one beyond a glib drive-by, Morgan has contributed pretty much the opposite this year what he contributed last year -- when he played with focus and enthusiasm, and provided great defense. (They were still really bad with him in the lineup, but he helped make the losing more tolerable.) This year he's alternated between annoying and blah. I honestly don't know if he's better or worse than Milledge, who's younger but who looks like a glorified reserve outfielder. I guess it depends on how much you accept what the fielding metrics say about this year and last year.
Do you really think the Marlins can just ignore the Cardinals incident in their reaction to Morgan hurting Hayes?
Without that incident, The best guess is that Morgan just made a stupid, but borderline play. But given the preceding act, the best assumption is that the guy like to try and hurt opponents.
Given that, the Marlins are going to react much more violently.
http://www.lookoutlanding.com/2010/5/12/1469664/starting-a-meme
My point is that there were a lot of know-nothing Nats fans crowing about how they got a steal with Morgan last year and how dumb the Pirates were for trading him for a bag of magic beans. Now, the worm has (predictably) turned, so I'm taking advantage of the opportunity to rub it in.
Agreed.
And throwing a projectile 90+ mph at someone is not considered an attack?
He missed. And if baseball players are going to charge the mound and flail around like hysterical sissies every time they get hit by a baseball, well, I can actually see that improving ratings with a certain demographic but I won't be among them. Still, the people who watch hockey for the fights and NASCAR for the crashes have money too.
He didn't the first time though. There is a huge difference between getting hit once(intentional or not), and getting another pich thrown at you your next plate appearance by the same pitcher. You can't just continuely throw at a guy and not expect him to come after you. The Marlins are lucky that Nyjer rushed the mound, cause otherwise you were likely to see an eye level fastball going toward Hanley or another player on the team.
He missed him by a foot. It wasn't even close.
Why waste time with umpires when players can dispense their own justice? Can we amend the rules to incorporate these edicts?
Golly, imagine the carnage if Volstad actually hit Morgan - I don't think using the company sniper would have been out of line.
What does that have to do with anything. It was intentional. He hit him on purpose in the 4th, then threw behind him in the 6th. At what point does he not stick up for himself?
What punishment can the umps do? Throw Volstad out of the game, when he was already going to be leaving anyway, or maybe last another inning. Thats a great punishment.
I think it has everything to do with anything. I doesn't seem right to excuse assaulting a pitcher for not hitting you.
So he meant to miss. Again, why the hissyfit by Morgan?
If he "hit him on purpose in the 4th" I think the umpire would have ejected him. Unless the umpire was a homer, of course.
If he actually hit him in the 6th, would Morgan have been excused for bringing his bat into the fray? I just want to get an idea of what is considered acceptable grounds for assault on a baseball diamond.
He didn't get hit. In fact, he wasn't even close to being hit. Morgan wanted to play "Lookit me, I'm a big man" and disrupt the game, thump his chest, and act like a goof. He's lucky he didn't get his ass seriously kicked for impersonating a thug.
Take the law in to your own hands - that's the American way. Rules are for sissies. Enforcing the rules is for the biggest sissies of all. Every player is responsible for meting out their own justice in accordance with their own preference. Swell. I knew Alex Rodriguez should have taken a bat to Carlos Ruiz's head when the Phillies kept plunking him in the World Series.
What we know at this point is that MLB thinks it's okay to assault, repeatedly, a player as long as he's unpopular with the Cards and Marlins.
Alex Rodriguez was hit three times in two games in the 2009 World Series, twice on the very first pitch of his very first at-bat in consecutive games IIRC. So who got suspended? And if the answer is "nobody", should Mr. Rodriguez have assaulted somebody on the Phillies?
And again, since you don't seem to grasp this: If Morgan doesn't rush the mound after a pitch that didn't hit him, nothing else happens. What you call "assault" I'd call "self-defense".
His biggest mistake was not dropping the batting gloves before starting the fracas.
Nyjerk's definitely used up the WAR he built up last year. But given the results in DC, I still like Burnett. Hanrahan was just getting hammered here last year and needed a new start. That was the price paid to dump a guy who wasn't going to be able to handle center for a guy who might have figured it out. Turns out he didn't, but so what. I wonder if they should try Burnett out as a starter to see if his good splits hold up, and dump Olsen in the bullpen or something. At least the 250k per start for Olsen would be over.
...and then I would ##### and whine when a Marlins player charges my pitcher and gouges him in the eye. "Eye gouging is dirty fighting, it's against the unwritten rules of the schoolyard," I would piously proclaim.
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