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Tuesday, April 22, 2014

Forbes: Valuing Derek Jeter: NYC v. Middle America

4193, not Jeter’s final hit total but a map reference.

Yet, the view of Jeter outside NYC and baseball’s high profile announcers and analysts, while ranging from appreciative to resentful, sees Jeter as overhyped. I’ve long lived in the intersection of Braves, Cardinals, and Reds territory and followed the Rangers and Astros based on childhood geography. To these fans and others in middle America, Jeter’s a very good hitting, limited-fielding shortstop with great durability and longevity but no better than, and in some ways, not as good as their own Chipper Jones, Barry Larkin, or Craig Biggio. Whereas Biggio will likely make the Hall of Fame, he has already just barely fallen short of the required threshold twice, everyone expects Jeter to be a shoe-in, first-ballot choice.

The data back up the middle America view. With careers overlapping, Jeter and Biggio’s numbers mirror each other both in terms of batting performances that are exceptional and fielding performances that are below average. (Jeter’s advocates love to point out his “Gold Gloves,” but this merely indicts that award rather than legitimizing Jeter’s fielding.) While Jeter played an important defensive position as shortstop, Biggio played across three important positions: catcher, second base, and center field.

Of course, the data analytics quickly become mind-numbing. An interesting summary and monetized value is provided by Imagine Sports – a simulation fantasy league including players from eras where salaries are based on valuations ultimately based on combinations of batting and fielding performance. In this world, Biggio’s value is 62nd overall, currently $14.7 million, while Jeter’s is $14.2 million. Since Jeter and Biggio played different positions, the comparison is a bit apples to oranges. Robin Yount, an immediate predecessor of Jeter as a great-hitting, marginal fielding shortstop, is valued at $14.1 million. Larkin, with slightly lower hitting stats but better fielding at shortstop, comes in at $13.9 million. Larkin entered the Hall of Fame on his third year of eligibility. Yount went on his first with just barely enough votes. Neither attracted anywhere close to the acclaim or attention of Jeter. Larkin, Yount, and Biggio’s MLB championships don’t sum up to Jeter’s, but, then again, they didn’t play with the Yankees.

...In a broader context, the divide between Yankee fans/”big media” and middle America on Derek Jeter stands as symbol of other cultural divides. It is largely a matter of where one lives as to what one thinks.

Repoz Posted: April 22, 2014 at 09:02 AM | 33 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: yankees

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   1. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 10:12 AM (#4690984)
OMG, it's only ####### April. If middle america has it in for Jetes, just wait until Mass. is polled.
   2. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 10:19 AM (#4690991)
The Yankees, and Jeter in particular, are actually very popular in rural Middle America areas without a MLB team. Like Nebraska is kinda notorious for being heavily-Yankee friendly. People that don't have a local team tend to cheer for whoever is good when they were growing up (or in some cases, whoever is on TV, which is why the Braves and Cubs are popular in say South Dakota). Its only the people in Minneapolis and Kansas City and Dallas that think Jeter is overrated.
   3. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 10:24 AM (#4690999)
Like Nebraska is kinda notorious for being heavily-Yankee friendly filled with drooling morons.


Fixed. (Yes, I'm from Arkansas & live in Alabama; I know from drooling morons.)
   4. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: April 22, 2014 at 10:33 AM (#4691008)
http://www.statemaster.com/graph/edu_hig_sch_dip_or_hig_by_per-high-school-diploma-higher-percentage

Nebraska 4th in the country with high school diploma. Arkansas 49, Alabama 43.
   5. GregD Posted: April 22, 2014 at 10:40 AM (#4691018)
Fixed. (Yes, I'm from Arkansas & live in Alabama; I know from drooling morons.)
I too came from the south and assumed all rural America had the same disastrous education, and was shocked when I saw the commitment to education and the pride in it in the rural Midwest. They do have a big problem in that a lot of their best-educated kids leave the state, but they don't have the same set of problems the south does.
   6. Pat Rapper's Delight Posted: April 22, 2014 at 10:57 AM (#4691029)
An interesting summary and monetized value is provided by Imagine Sports...

#### you, Dayne Myers!
   7. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:02 AM (#4691039)
#### you, Dayne Myers!


I want my $2. Oh, wait.
   8. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:10 AM (#4691047)
Like Nebraska is kinda notorious for being heavily-Yankee friendly filled with drooling morons.


Aren't you being redundant?
   9. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:18 AM (#4691060)
My whole point, #8, questions of high school education levels & such aside. (We might well have Yankee fans down here, too, but if so they're smart enough to keep quiet about it, AFAICT.)
   10. Rickey! trades in sheep and threats Posted: April 22, 2014 at 11:57 AM (#4691102)
I too came from the south and assumed all rural America had the same disastrous education, and was shocked when I saw the commitment to education and the pride in it in the rural Midwest. They do have a big problem in that a lot of their best-educated kids leave the state, but they don't have the same set of problems the south does.


The Midwest educates them enough for them to be smart enough to leave. The south keeps them dumb enough to stay.
   11. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 12:20 PM (#4691121)
Well, Sam, we're both still here ...
   12. Greg K Posted: April 22, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4691122)
The Midwest educates them enough for them to be smart enough to leave. The south keeps them dumb enough to stay.

Saskatchewan appears to be the Midwest of Canada...as soon as they get a degree they're out of there. Though since the tar sands boom that's changing. They actually have a graduate retention tax credit program, where if you got your degree in Saskatchewan, and work in province afterwards you get up to $20,000 in tax credits.*

What's the equivalent of south I wonder? Newfoundland? Cape Breton?

*Which just misses helping me. I did my undergrad in Saskatchewan, and its looking like my first post-PhD teaching job will be in Saskatchewan this Fall! But sadly it will only be for one semester, which isn't permanent enough work to qualify.
   13. RJ in TO Posted: April 22, 2014 at 12:40 PM (#4691130)
Robin Yount, an immediate predecessor of Jeter as a great-hitting, marginal fielding shortstop, is valued at $14.1 million.


Robin Yount was a marginal fielding shortstop? What the ####? I thought he had a pretty good reputation there, and his defensive numbers at the position look like they vary between average and well above average. Wasn't he only moved off the position because of a shoulder injury that screwed up his arm strength?
   14. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 12:45 PM (#4691135)
Robin Yount was a marginal fielding shortstop? What the ####? I thought he had a pretty good reputation there, and his defensive numbers at the position look like they vary between average and well above average. Wasn't he only moved off the position because of a shoulder injury that screwed up his arm strength?


Robin Yount v. Northeast Phd. guy.
   15. BDC Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:24 PM (#4691175)
Robin Yount was lucky he was in ####### baseball for #########. He was moved off of shortstop. He was moved out of ###### ####### center field. Phil Garner eventually saw that Robin Yount could sit on his ### for eight innings and enjoy the game like any other fan, and then have the ability to go out there and break one open in the ####### ninth.
   16. Publius Publicola Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4691179)
Wasn't he only moved off the position because of a shoulder injury that screwed up his arm strength?


Of course. But let it go. The author's on a roll.
   17. Moeball Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:33 PM (#4691185)
How did Robin Yount get to be part of a Derek Jeter thread?

At any rate - Yount at his worst as a defensive shortstop was probably still better than Jeter at his best. When Yount was younger and still had the arm it was no comparison at all.

Oh, well. Jeter can join the Joe Morgan club of players who are deserving HOFers but who, during their careers, were vastly overrated defensively but also probably very much underrated offensively.

Jeter could make the HOF on his bat alone, even without defensive positioning adjustments. The BBWAA likes guys with well over 3000 hits and a career BA over .300.
   18. Adward Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:39 PM (#4691198)
Quebec as the South? Once part of another country and of half a mind to try it again. Seem to be quite happy on their own.

Newfoundland as Mexico? Loosely demarcated by water, emigrant work force with their own aisle in the grocer. (might be an oil sands thing)
   19. Greg K Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:46 PM (#4691209)
Quebec as the South? Once part of another country and of half a mind to try it again. Seem to be quite happy on their own.

Newfoundland as Mexico? Loosely demarcated by water, emigrant work force with their own aisle in the grocer. (might be an oil sands thing)

Both of those work quite well.

I suppose, annoyingly, Toronto plays the role of New York.
   20. Sean Forman Posted: April 22, 2014 at 01:55 PM (#4691229)
Without my education in a tiny town in Western Iowa there would be no Baseball-Reference.com. Harumph.
   21. Johnny Sycophant-Laden Fora Posted: April 22, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4691245)
Without my education in a tiny town in Western Iowa there would be no Baseball-Reference.com. Harumph.


two words
Baseball
Cube

ducks...
   22. Joey B. Posted: April 22, 2014 at 02:33 PM (#4691274)
How did Robin Yount get to be part of a Derek Jeter thread?

An even better question is how did red diaper baby political ranting get to be part of a Derek Jeter thread?
   23. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: April 22, 2014 at 02:50 PM (#4691291)
Yeah, how could an article titled "NYC vs. Middle America" that concludes with "In a broader context, the divide between Yankee fans/”big media” and middle America on Derek Jeter stands as symbol of other cultural divides. It is largely a matter of where one lives as to what one thinks" make anyone think about politics?
   24. Into the Void Posted: April 22, 2014 at 03:22 PM (#4691333)
I didn't read the article, but did it note the irony that Derek Jeter is actually from the Midwest and Biggio from NY?
   25. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 22, 2014 at 03:26 PM (#4691339)
Derek Jeter is from Pequannock NJ!
   26. Into the Void Posted: April 22, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4691347)
Ah, didn't realize he moved to Michigan...
   27. alilisd Posted: April 22, 2014 at 03:32 PM (#4691348)
Harumph, Harumph, Harumph. Give Mr. Forman an Harumph!!!
   28. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 03:36 PM (#4691352)
I didn't read the article, but did it note the irony that Derek Jeter is actually from the Midwest and Biggio from NY?


George W. Bush is from Connecticut and Barack Obama is from Kenya. People reinvent themselves!
   29. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: April 22, 2014 at 04:28 PM (#4691413)
Jeter had a secretary named Yount and Yount had a secretary named Jeter.
   30. Yeaarrgghhhh Posted: April 22, 2014 at 04:46 PM (#4691426)
What did you expect? "Welcome, sonny"? "Make yourself at home"? "Marry my daughter"? You've got to remember that these are just simple farmers. These are people of the land. The common clay of the new West. You know...morons.
   31. Walt Davis Posted: April 22, 2014 at 06:19 PM (#4691480)

Nebraska 4th in the country with high school diploma. Arkansas 49, Alabama 43.


Lower graduation standards than Arkansas and Alabama ain't nothing to be proud of. :-)

On Yount ... yep, he was a perfectly solid, even good defensive SS before the injuries. Then he was deemed no longer capable of playing the position. But b-r considers his defense in the OF to be pretty atrocious suggesting he'd have become a pretty terrible SS pretty quick. From age 29-37, he had -7 dWAR, more than a win worse than Jeter over the same ages.

Of course he wasn't a SS then and so it would be silly to claim he was a bad defensive SS while he was playing CF ... unless you're one of those silly people who credit him with 27 WAR at SS while he was playing CF. :-)

And one of those wonderful Rfield head scratchers -- after nearly a decade compiling -78 Rfield in the OF, at the age of 37, he puts up a +6 in CF in just 950 innings.
   32. The Yankee Clapper Posted: April 22, 2014 at 07:20 PM (#4691522)
Middle America doesn't have a problem with Derek Jeter, quite the opposite. In August 2013, a season that Jeter mostly missed due to injury, he was viewed as the Face of MLB by a wide margin:
When Turnkey gave 1,028 baseball fans a list of players that did not include Alex Rodriguez, who had somehow wriggled his way into a few "SportsCenter" segments at the time, and told those fans they could pick up to three players they'd identify as the Face of Baseball, Jeter pretty much squashed the rest of the field.

He was chosen by 38 percent of those polled. As opposed to 25 percent for the runner-up, Miguel Cabrera. And once you got past those two, nobody was really even in the same solar system.

Jeter was picked by more than double the number of folks who named David Ortiz (17 percent) or Mike Trout (16) or Mariano Rivera (12). He quadrupled Bryce Harper (9 percent) -- and got more than seven times as many votes as your other official Bright Young Stars of the Game, Andrew McCutchen and Buster Posey (5 percent each).

A BBTF Poll might produce a different result, but that just shows how weird some folks here are.
   33. Walt Davis Posted: April 22, 2014 at 09:45 PM (#4691613)
I think #32 hits it ... I'd question the premise that Jeter is viewed as "overhyped" in "Middle America" by your average baseball fan. Jeter's being farewelled by every team because Jeter is popular with the fans of every team.

And reading "cultural differences" into any differences in perception that do exist is silly anyway. Of course media coverage of Jeter is substantially lower outside of NY, that's got nothing to do with a cultural divide.

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