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Friday, June 15, 2018

Former MLB pitcher Kevin Brown reportedly held two mail thieves at gunpoint until police arrived

Former MLB All-Star Kevin Brown is now a neighborhood watchdog.

According to Laura Corley of The Telegraph, Brown recently caught two mail thieves in his Macon, Georgia, neighborhood and held them at gunpoint until police arrived.

Sounds like he handled these thieves better than he handled David Ortiz in Game 7.

Nasty Nate Posted: June 15, 2018 at 09:31 AM | 309 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: steals home

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   1. Ziggy's screen name Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:37 AM (#5693286)
Can you really do that? This sounds a lot like assault with a deadly weapon. (And maybe kidnapping, since he didn't let them leave?)
   2. The Duke Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:44 AM (#5693287)
Good for him. Best form of policing is an active community
   3. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: June 16, 2018 at 08:50 AM (#5693289)
Sounds like he handled these thieves better than he handled David Ortiz in Game 7.

Yet another argument for gun control. #### Kevin Brown.
   4. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 09:04 AM (#5693291)

Can you really do that? This sounds a lot like assault with a deadly weapon. (And maybe kidnapping, since he didn't let them leave?)
People are allowed to catch criminals.
   5. BDC Posted: June 16, 2018 at 09:07 AM (#5693294)
People are allowed to catch criminals

It's an interesting psychological situation, though, because if you're a mail thief, you could presumably just turn around and walk directly away from Kevin Brown. What is Kevin Brown going to do, shoot you in the back? Unfortunately for the theory, this plan hinges on the reasonableness of Kevin Brown, and you wouldn't want to bet your well-being on the aplomb of a guy in his pajamas playing Dirty Harry.
   6. Dag Nabbit at ExactlyAsOld.com Posted: June 16, 2018 at 09:24 AM (#5693298)
Did anyone initially read this as "mall thieves" instead of "mail thieves"?

After several reports of stolen mail in a north Macon neighborhood, former major league pitcher Kevin Brown hid in a neighbor's yard and waited on the thieves to strike again.

A 15-year-old and another man were arrested Wednesday afternoon outside of Brown's multimillion-dollar home off Rivoli Downs. The mailbox was ajar as the baseball star explained the situation to four Bibb County sheriff's deputies.


"Another man"? Don't normally consider a 15-year-old to be a man in the first place. Wonder how old the second person was. Apparently 18 or older, but that makes it a little odd he's hanging out with a high school sophomore.
   7. Batman Posted: June 16, 2018 at 10:15 AM (#5693307)
A different article says the other guy was the 15-year-old’s 30-year-old brother. The older brother is named Jeremy Brown, but he wasn’t there to sell jeans.
   8. Jess Franco Posted: June 16, 2018 at 10:31 AM (#5693312)
Moneyball obviously didn't work out so well for ol' Jeremy.
   9. stig-tossled,hornswoggled gef the talking mongoose Posted: June 16, 2018 at 10:50 AM (#5693316)
Where was Kevin Brown when I needed him? Received notification via email yesterday morning that an OEM passenger's-side power window motor I'd ordered via eBay had been delivered, only to find nothing when I got home from work. *sigh* (Hoping it was left at the wrong address, which has been known to happen.)
   10. Infinite Yost (Voxter) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 10:54 AM (#5693317)
Best form of policing is an active community


Civilians waving guns around is not a good idea under any circumstances. What Brown did may not be illegal, but is far more dangerous and irresponsible than taking mail.
   11. Sweatpants Posted: June 16, 2018 at 10:56 AM (#5693318)
There was a time when Kevin Brown was the highest-paid player in baseball, yet he's living in Macon. Whatever makes him happy, I guess.
   12. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:14 AM (#5693325)
Civilians waving guns around is not a good idea under any circumstances. What Brown did may not be illegal, but is far more dangerous and irresponsible than taking mail.

It's actually very good if it deters criminals because they think they might get shot. If you go onto somebody's property to commit a crime, I don't much care if you get hurt.
   13. Jess Franco Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:22 AM (#5693327)

It's actually very good if it deters criminals because they think they might get shot.


Dumb criminals won't care, smart ones will comme prepared.
   14. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:51 AM (#5693336)
What do thieves expect to find in a mailbox?
   15. Greg K Posted: June 16, 2018 at 11:52 AM (#5693337)
Civilians waving guns around is not a good idea under any circumstances.

It's a good way to ensure people follow the rules in a league game. I mean, this determines who enters the next round-robin, am I wrong?
   16. The George Sherrill Selection Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:01 PM (#5693341)
What do thieves expect to find in a mailbox?


Credit cards, bank statements, things needed for identity theft.
   17. Omineca Greg Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:11 PM (#5693345)
What do thieves expect to find in a mailbox?

Apologies to Paul Simonon...


When they open up your mailbox
How you gonna come?
With your finger on your cell phone
Or on the trigger of your gun

When the mail thieves break in
How you gonna go?
With a stolen Amazon order
Or waiting on death row

You can crush us
You can bruise us
But you'll have to answer to
Oh, guns of Macon

The money feels good
And your life you like it well
Living in a McMansion in Rivoli Downs
Looks like a suburban hell

You see, he feels like Kevin
In Macon where it's hotter
His game is called survivin'
At the end of "I Washed My Hands In Muddy Water"

You know it means no mercy
Kevin caught them with some mail
And just like Stonewall's Daddy
They're off to Macon jail

You can crush us
You can bruise us
But you'll have to answer to
Oh, the guns of Macon

(Bridge)

You can crush us
You can bruise us
You can even take our Zaxby's coupons
But, oh the guns of Macon

You can crush us
You can bruise us
But you'll have to answer to
Oh, guns of Macon (x4)

Don't make me do "I'm Lost In The Piggly Wiggly"...

   18. Hysterical & Useless Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:38 PM (#5693359)
It's a good way to ensure people follow the rules in a league game


Since I have a few minutes, I'll tell a story of Life in These Here United States, as related to me by a friend some years ago:

Scene, a tennis court in a Florida retirement community. Doubles game in progress. Game ends, teams to change sides, the server places the balls on the baseline for the next server of the other team, walks toward other end.

One of the players from the other team aborts his walk toward the other end of the court, making a right turn and heading to the parking lot. Not a word said, you understand. Goes to his car, opens door, comes back to the court. Waving a gun.

You see, placing the balls on the ground, rather than handing them to the next server, was, in his mind (if you can call it that), an unforgivable diss.

Fortunately, no gunshots were fired, and the match was completed without further incident. Some of the tennis shots were perhaps a little tentative...
   19. puck Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:45 PM (#5693362)
I wonder how many days Brown had to hide and wait?

I can understand the impulse. When I was a student my roommates pooled our money for a newspaper subscription. That's what we did in my day as tying an onion the belt had fallen out of fashion. Some degenerate used to steal the sports page every Monday during football season. I didn't lie in wait though; I guess I didn't want it as bad as Kevin Brown.
   20. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 16, 2018 at 12:57 PM (#5693369)
Can you really do that? This sounds a lot like assault with a deadly weapon. (And maybe kidnapping, since he didn't let them leave?)

Yet another argument for gun control. #### Kevin Brown.

So, we've reached the point where some think apprehending a criminal is an assault? And citizens catching criminals is grounds for restricting citizens' rights? Neither claim is valid or likely to catch on.
   21. Greg K Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:01 PM (#5693373)
I can understand the impulse. When I was a student my roommates pooled our money for a newspaper subscription. That's what we did in my day as tying an onion the belt had fallen out of fashion. Some degenerate used to steal the sports page every Monday during football season. I didn't lie in wait though; I guess I didn't want it as bad as Kevin Brown.

One of my friends from first-year dorm days was/is a pretty conservative guy (he was essentially Hank Hill from the age of 18 on).

A group of us signed him up for various Communist Party mailing lists, and even a subscription or two. Mail day was always entertaining.
   22. SoSH U at work Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:06 PM (#5693376)
5. I wouldn’t take my chances. Brown previously pulled a gun on a neighbor in a dispute over grass clippings.
   23. Lassus Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:13 PM (#5693379)
As I was reading this thread, my mom sent me a TXT of just finding this item at a truck stop in Georgia.
   24. Jose is an Absurd Force of Nature Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:21 PM (#5693387)
This is terrifying. The idea that pulling a gun on someone taking a couple of pieces of junk mail is OK is just insane in my view. If Brown was being physically threatened, yeah, but because someone might steal his Visa bill? #### that. That’s not OK.
   25. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:32 PM (#5693389)
The idea that pulling a gun on someone taking a couple of pieces of junk mail is OK is just insane in my view.


It trivializes the matter to call it "junk mail." They were certainly looking for checks that people had put into their mailboxes, or credit card information.

Identity theft is a nightmare. I wouldn't pull a gun on someone stealing my mail (or anyone else, for that matter), but it's hard to complain too much about someone taking steps to stop criminals who likely would have scammed many people in the neighborhood without Brown intervening in some fashion.
   26. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:37 PM (#5693390)
We don't know how this went down. He may have emerged with a gun, and the bad guys just crumpled, sat in a heap, and they all made small talk until the police arrived. Or he might have literally held his gun against their temples.
   27. The George Sherrill Selection Posted: June 16, 2018 at 01:56 PM (#5693401)
It trivializes the matter to call it "junk mail."


If people really want junk mail, drive to any apartment complex that has a trash bin by the mailboxes. It's always packed with junk mail. Load up on all the coupons for Papa Murphy's, Stop & Shop, and Qdoba that you want, nobody cares.

I had to deal with identity theft when someone filed my taxes for me, it was a giant pain. Every year I rush to get mine done ASAP just because of the hassle. I can't imagine how much fun it is when your bank account is emptied out.
   28. Leroy Kincaid Posted: June 16, 2018 at 02:12 PM (#5693404)
I suspect this is a crime that the cops don't care much about, depending on where you live I suppose, so when called they aren't in a hurry to respond. I live in a nice neighborhood and a home burglary occurred a block away at 2PM on a Sunday. The crime was reported when it was in progress. By the time the cops arrived the crooks were long gone and the owner is unlikely to get his stuff back. Anyway, guess my point is, I understand why some people use guns for situations where the police aren't much help. I don't have a gun, BTW.
   29. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 16, 2018 at 02:31 PM (#5693410)
Kevin Brown, everyone:
[Brown's neighbor Michael] Haws said he called the sheriff's office after a loud argument that began when he found Brown throwing grass clippings over the fence into Haws' yard on Breighton Court, which backs up to Brown's multimillion-dollar estate on Brown's Ridge.

When Haws confronted Brown, the two men argued and Brown pulled out a gun and told Haws he'd better not come onto Brown's property, the report stated.
   30. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 02:35 PM (#5693411)
Surprised that Brown mows his own lawn.
   31. dlf Posted: June 16, 2018 at 02:54 PM (#5693413)
It's actually very good if it deters criminals because they think they might get shot. If you go onto somebody's property to commit a crime, I don't much care if you get hurt.


What are the odds is deters criminals who go onto someone's property and what are the odds it deters a young black man in a hoodie carrying Skittles after dark?
   32. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 16, 2018 at 02:56 PM (#5693415)
[Brown's neighbor Michael] Haws said he called the sheriff's office after a loud argument that began when he found Brown throwing grass clippings over the fence into Haws' yard on Breighton Court, which backs up to Brown's multimillion-dollar estate on Brown's Ridge.

When Haws confronted Brown, the two men argued and Brown pulled out a gun and told Haws he'd better not come onto Brown's property, the report stated.
This is the type of behavior you pro-gun people are defending. You good with that?
   33. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:01 PM (#5693419)
Flashing a gun deters most criminals the problem is of course the type of person who uses a gun as part of an argument to prove they are right is generally also the person who will flash a gun or even pull one out on a criminal.
   34. The Duke Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:37 PM (#5693441)
I don’t understand all the hand-wringing over the thieves. The moment you start participating in criminal activity you run the risk of someone taking offense at that. Brown didn’t shoot them - what’s the problem ?
   35. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:44 PM (#5693445)
This is the type of behavior you pro-gun people are defending. You good with that?


There's a big difference between pulling a gun on someone in the middle of an argument that you started, and pulling a gun on some thieves who are in the midst of committing a crime.
   36. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 03:53 PM (#5693449)
#34 - The gun is nothing without the threat of using it. If you're happy with Kevin Brown brandishing a gun, you must also happy with him shooting at the mail thieves. You cool with Brown firing away if they try and escape? How about if they advance toward him and look ready to fight? Can he shoot them?
   37. Jess Franco Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:00 PM (#5693453)
I believe Kevin Brown had the rep of quite the ####### in his playing days.
   38. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:03 PM (#5693454)
Surprised that Brown mows his own lawn.


Does anyone here have his phone #?
   39. Pat Rapper's Delight (as quoted on MLB Network) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:04 PM (#5693455)
They were certainly looking for checks that people had put into their mailboxes, or credit card information.

Prescription drugs, perhaps? Or does the heavy stuff also get dispensed by mail?
   40. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:05 PM (#5693457)
There's a big difference between pulling a gun on someone in the middle of an argument that you started, and pulling a gun on some thieves who are in the midst of committing a crime.


Sure, but once he pulled a gun on his neighbor over grass clippings he shouldn't have had the opportunity to pull a gun on anyone else, ever.
   41. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:11 PM (#5693458)
#34 - The gun is nothing without the threat of using it. If you're happy with Kevin Brown brandishing a gun, you must also happy with him shooting at the mail thieves. You cool with Brown firing away if they try and escape? How about if they advance toward him and look ready to fight? Can he shoot them?

It appears that Brown did exactly what a police officer would have done had one been present to catch the thieves in the act - detain them until additional help arrived. Why that bothers anyone other than the thieves themselves remains a mystery. And if it matters to anyone, those thieves weren't neighborhood kids pulling a prank, it appears that they went to considerable effort to repeatedly target Brown:
Kevin Brown watched on his home surveillance system Tuesday morning as two men in a white sports car with a Florida plate rode up to the gate of his multimillion-dollar home, opened his mailbox and sped off with his mail. Deputies searched near Rivoli Downs but didn't spot a white 2017 Ford Mustang.

About five hours later, after the next mail delivery, the men in the Mustang returned and left with his mail once again, according to an incident report from the Bibb County Sheriff's Office. Deputies searched for the car with no luck. So when the Mustang rolled back into the neighborhood Wednesday, the former major league pitcher was, well, ready to play catch.
. . .
A lengthy interview with investigators revealed the brothers committed several thefts, authorities said. Deputies recovered more than $3,000 in cash and more than $16,000 in checks belonging to other people, the sheriff's office said in a news release Thursday.

In this situation, Brown did nothing wrong.
   42. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:15 PM (#5693462)
Sure, but once he pulled a gun on his neighbor over grass clippings he shouldn't have had the opportunity to pull a gun on anyone else, ever.


Yeah, I can go along with that. It would be nice if we lived in a society where anyone found to be using firearms in a dangerous, irresponsible way lost their right to ever own firearms again. But we don't live in that society.

This specific instance, though - a private citizen pulls a gun on someone in the midst of committing a crime in order to hold them there till the police arrive - seems wholly unobjectionable to me. If we are going to have guns in our society, this is pretty much the best case scenario in which to use them.
   43. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:20 PM (#5693463)

Yeah, I can go along with that. It would be nice if we lived in a society where anyone found to be using firearms in a dangerous, irresponsible way lost their right to ever own firearms again. But we don't live in that society.


I'm pretty sure that we do, in Massachusetts.
   44. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:24 PM (#5693466)
Sure, but once he pulled a gun on his neighbor over grass clippings he shouldn't have had the opportunity to pull a gun on anyone else, ever.

No charges were ever filed in that incident. Perhaps the neighbor's account via Deadspin isn't authoritative.
   45. dlf Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5693467)
In this situation, Brown did nothing wrong.


If you pull your gun on enough folks, eventually, you'll get it right. Thank goodness he had his practice pulling a gun over lawn clippings before taking on the mail thieves.
   46. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:26 PM (#5693470)
Civilians waving guns around is not a good idea under any circumstances. What Brown did may not be illegal, but is far more dangerous and irresponsible than taking mail.
You want soldiers enforcing ordinary criminal law? Seems like a worse option to me.

Letting yourself be the victim of a crime because you’re unwilling to stand up for yourself is not a good idea under any circumstance. Can’t see how catching criminals could be a bad idea.
   47. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:28 PM (#5693473)
Letting yourself be the victim of a crime because you’re unwilling to stand up for yourself is not a good idea under any circumstance.


Sometimes it seems like a great idea. I'd rather give up my wallet than tussle with a guy with a switchblade.
   48. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:32 PM (#5693475)
Sure, but once he pulled a gun on his neighbor over grass clippings he shouldn't have had the opportunity to pull a gun on anyone else, ever.

No charges were ever filed in that incident. Perhaps the neighbor's account via Deadspin isn't authoritative.
Not only that, but Bivens’ description does not even match the story as reported. Brown did not pull a gun over grass clippings; the neighbor started a confrontation over grass clippings. Brown pulled a gun over the neighbor’s behavior.
   49. What did Billy Ripken have against ElRoy Face? Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5693477)
Brown did not pull a gun over grass clippings; the neighbor started a confrontation over grass clippings. Brown pulled a gun over the neighbor’s behavior.
Apparently he pulled a gun on a guy who was yelling at him. You're good with that? Because freedom!!?
   50. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:38 PM (#5693478)
Brown did not pull a gun over grass clippings; the neighbor started a confrontation over grass clippings.


If you're dumping your grass clippings onto your neighbor's yard, then you're the one who started the confrontation.
   51. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:45 PM (#5693481)
No charges were ever filed in that incident. Perhaps the neighbor's account via Deadspin isn't authoritative.


Perhaps, but Deadspin got it from Macon.com.
   52. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:50 PM (#5693486)
Letting yourself be the victim of a crime because you’re unwilling to stand up for yourself is not a good idea under any circumstance. Can’t see how catching criminals could be a bad idea.


What's your stance on the civilian shooting the thieves when they call his bluff and run away?
   53. PreservedFish Posted: June 16, 2018 at 04:52 PM (#5693487)
Apparently he pulled a gun on a guy who was yelling at him. You're good with that? Because freedom!!?


Brown just calmly informed the neighbor of his inalienable right to murder anyone that messes with his property. You think Nieporent isn't good with that? Nieporent is getting erect just thinking about it.
   54. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:06 PM (#5693490)
No charges were ever filed in that incident. Perhaps the neighbor's account via Deadspin isn't authoritative.

Perhaps, but Deadspin got it from Macon.com.

Deadspin can't be bothered with a working link to its source, so I wouldn't assume that they were fastidiously accurate. However, they could have easily found local news reports indicating that Brown removed the gun from his pocket, but didn't point it at the neighbor, and neither man wanted to press charges. Big surprise, they left that out to hype their story.
   55. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:22 PM (#5693492)
Deadspin can't be bothered with a working link to its source, so I wouldn't assume that they were fastidiously accurate.


The Deadspin article says "Brown pulled out a gun," which doesn't seem to be in dispute. What did they say that was inaccurate?
   56. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:23 PM (#5693493)
No one said he pointed it at the neighbor.

If you pull a gun on a neighbor, and the neighbor is intimidated by it, it's likely that when Barney Fife shows up to investigate/mediate/squash, the intimidated neighbor will decline to press charges.


   57. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5693495)
This is the type of behavior you pro-gun people are defending. You good with that?

No, I'm not. Pulling a gun on your neighbor during a verbal argument is likely a crime. Menacing.
   58. Tom Nawrocki Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:28 PM (#5693496)
It's also not clear to me what charges there were to press. I'm not an expert on these things, but in Macon, Georgia, I'm guessing it's not illegal to hold a gun.
   59. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:31 PM (#5693497)
#34 - The gun is nothing without the threat of using it. If you're happy with Kevin Brown brandishing a gun, you must also happy with him shooting at the mail thieves. You cool with Brown firing away if they try and escape?

You can't shoot somebody for theft. You can't shoot them if they're running away. Both are crimes, rightly so.

How about if they advance toward him and look ready to fight? Can he shoot them?

He should warn them first. But, if you are being advanced upon in a threatening fashion on your property, yes you can shoot them. The question is would a reasonable man fear severe bodily harm. A thief advancing on you aggressively is certainly a good reason to have that fear.
   60. Los Angeles El Hombre of Anaheim Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:32 PM (#5693498)
Deadspin can't be bothered with a working link to its source, so I wouldn't assume that they were fastidiously accurate.
The link is years old. I know YC wants to assume it's all a lie, but it's safe to Google it yourselves. #NotFakeNews
   61. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:34 PM (#5693499)
No one said he pointed it at the neighbor.

You don't have to point a gun at someone for it to be a crime. In NY:

2nd Degree Menacing: A person is guilty of 2nd degree menacing when he or she either:

Intentionally places or attempts to place another person in reasonable fear of injury or death by displaying a deadly weapon or instrument;

or

Repeatedly following or engaging in repeated conduct to intentionally place or attempt to place another person in reasonable fear of injury or death; or
   62. Random Transaction Generator Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5693500)
However, they could have easily found local news reports indicating that Brown removed the gun from his pocket, but didn't point it at the neighbor, and neither man wanted to press charges.


"I didn't point the gun at him. I simply pulled it out and showed him I had a gun."

That's some serious hair-splitting.
   63. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:36 PM (#5693501)
Cops don’t pull guns out to threaten people they do it because there life is in danger and they intend to shoot someone to protect their life.

Brown is not a cop. He intentionally and willfully put himself in harm’s way. He didn’t use his gun to protect himself as is his right but he did so for an offensive action.


And nobody has answered the question if it is okay for Brown to shoot and kill this kid and man if they run away.

Edit. Except snapper
   64. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:38 PM (#5693502)
Pulling a gun on your neighbor during a verbal argument is likely a crime. Menacing.


I'm pretty sure that here in MA the police hold a less lenient view on neighbors who pull guns on neighbors during arguments. They won't mediate, they'll likely investigate further and if they determine that the threat didn't warrant that level of self defense, arrest the neighbor with the gun.
Or arrest the neighbor who threatened the neighbor who felt the need to pull a gun. Someone is going to the police station.

edit...less lenient than in GA, I meant.
   65. Jess Franco Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5693505)


Brown just calmly informed the neighbor of his inalienable right to murder anyone that messes with his property. You think Nieporent isn't good with that?

Unless somebody calls the cops.
   66. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:45 PM (#5693506)
Cops don’t pull guns out to threaten people they do it because there life is in danger and they intend to shoot someone to protect their life.

If a cop had caught the thieves in the act, he would have done exactly what Brown did - detain the thieves until additional help arrived.
   67. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:46 PM (#5693508)
And nobody has answered the question if it is okay for Brown to shoot and kill this kid and man if they run away.

The only time it's OK to shoot a fleeing criminal is if that person is an severe imminent threat to others. e.g. if you're standing on the sidewalk, and some lunatic attacks someone with a machete, you pull your gun, he sees it and starts running in the direction of other potential victims. You can shoot him because you have a very reasonable fear said lunatic is immediately going to hack someone else to death unless stopped. That's true for cops as well as regular citizens.
   68. Jess Franco Posted: June 16, 2018 at 05:55 PM (#5693513)

Private property does not merely describe a relation between an owner and a thing. It is a social relation -- the right to exclude -- shot through with violence. If I take food from a grocery store, drive a car off a dealer's lot, or move into your spare bedroom, and do it without permission, without paying, and, most importantly, without punishment or fear of punishment, then we cannot say food and cars and spare bedrooms are private property. Without the enforcement of an exclusive claim, there is no private property. Private property is always based upon force, which is to say there is no private property without violence.


POLICE A Field Guide
   69. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:00 PM (#5693518)
Why did you leave out the rest of the excerpt?

edit...ah, you provided a link.
   70. Jess Franco Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:04 PM (#5693521)
   71. Jess Franco Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:05 PM (#5693522)
I typed it out myself.
   72. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:16 PM (#5693527)
Re 66. Brown ain’t a cop. Brown went hunting for criminals.
   73. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:20 PM (#5693528)
If a cop had caught the thieves in the act, he would have done exactly what Brown did - detain the thieves until additional help arrived.


If the thieves had run away, the cop would be OK with shooting them. Are you OK with Brown shooting them had they run away? Or chasing after them and beating them until they submit? Or gotten in their vehicle and chasing after them in his at hight speed? Police are allowed to do a lot of things ordinary civilians are not. Saying he did exactly what the police would have done is not justification in and of itself.
   74. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:24 PM (#5693529)
Re 66. Brown ain’t a cop. Brown went hunting for criminals.

Citizens are allowed to catch criminals, especially when they are committing a crime on the citizen's own property. Apparently some here have a problem with that. I assume those folks have signs on their own property indicating that they are unarmed and would not interfere with any criminal activity on the property.
   75. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:31 PM (#5693530)
If a cop had caught the thieves in the act, he would have done exactly what Brown did - detain the thieves until additional help arrived.

If the thieves had run away, the cop would be OK with shooting them. Are you OK with Brown shooting them had they run away? Or chasing after them and beating them until they submit? Or gotten in their vehicle and chasing after them in his at hight speed? Police are allowed to do a lot of things ordinary civilians are not. Saying he did exactly what the police would have done is not justification in and of itself.

You're just making stuff up. A cop isn't allowed to shoot a fleeing suspect absent additional factors. But Brown has every right to detain criminals caught in the act on his own property. That Brown is the one being demonized here is rather amazing.
   76. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:32 PM (#5693532)
Citizens are allowed to catch criminals, especially when they are committing a crime on the citizen's own property.


My mailbox isn't on my property.

Apparently some here have a problem with that.


"Citizen arrests":
In general, a private person is justified in using non-deadly force upon another if they reasonably believe that: (1) such other person is committing a felony, or a misdemeanor amounting to a breach of the peace; and (2) the force used is necessary to prevent further commission of the offense and to apprehend the offender. The force must be reasonable under the circumstances to restrain the individual arrested. This includes the nature of the offense and the amount of force required to overcome resistance


Again, different police departments may have different tolerances for "the amount of force required".

I assume those folks have signs on their own property indicating that they are unarmed and would not interfere with any criminal activity on the property.


I'll interfere. I'll call the cops.
   77. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:39 PM (#5693534)

If the thieves had run away, the cop would be OK with shooting them.


The cop can absolutely NOT do that.
   78. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:40 PM (#5693535)
I'll interfere. I'll call the cops.

So, if someone broke into your house, and started carrying things out, you'd just call the cops and let them do it?
   79. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:45 PM (#5693537)
Brown was in his neighbor's yard when he set himself upon the two suspects. Like I said he was hunting.
   80. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:46 PM (#5693539)
Brown was in his neighbor's yard went set himself upon the two suspects. Like I said he was hunting.

So, if you saw people robbing your neighbor, you'd ignore it?
   81. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5693540)
So, if someone broke into your house, and started carrying things out, you'd just call the cops and let them do it?

I'm not dying for a TV. If someone broke into my house the first thing I'd do is run into a room and shut the door. Then announce to them that I'm here and calling the police. Unless this is some John Wick film the burglar is going to flee at that point. If he doesn't I'm going to stay in that room until the cops arrive. If it turns out I'm in a John Wick movie I'm going to do my best to keep a barrier between me and the guy trying to get at me. I'll also if able start looking for something I can use as a weapon.
   82. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:51 PM (#5693542)
So, if you saw people robbing your neighbor, you'd ignore it?

I'd call the cops and yell at them.
   83. Omineca Greg Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:56 PM (#5693543)
I don't understand that song, "That's The Night The Lights Went Out In Georgia".

Like, it's a really bad song, it doesn't make any sense.

Why did Andy tell Brother that he was banging Brother's wife? No seriously, why?

Why is there another guy, Seth, banging Brother's wife?

If Andy was scared, why did he go home alone?

Is that a normal way to summon the police to a murder scene in Georgia? Firing your own gun in the air? Because, and I think all the lawyers here will back me up on this...it's not a good move.

Why did Little Sister shoot Brother's wife? And then Andy? But not Seth. Why the #### is Seth even in this song? Was Little Sister just hanging around to shoot Andy in the short time difference it took Andy to get his gun and go to shoot Andy himself? Why? And how?

And the trial went so fast, Little Sister had no time to say?...

The tracks he saw while on his way
To Andy's house and back that night were mine
And his cheating wife had never left town
And that's one body that'll never be found
See, little sister don't miss when she aims her gun


I just said all those words aloud, and it took 13 seconds. The whole trial and hanging and everything took less than 13 seconds? I know the judge needed to get home for supper, but I think even the worst lawyer (I know what you're thinking, but he lives in Manhattan (You're so vain, you probably think this post is about you), this lawyer is "southern backwoods") can get the trial stretched out to 13 seconds.

And why does the judge have bloodstains on his hands? Arguably he does I guess, but Little Sister shot two people and didn't come forward with evidence that would exonerate a third, so I don't think she should be throwing stones, because her house is kind of made from a non-crystalline amorphous solid that is often transparent and has widespread practical, technological, and decorative usage...if you know what I mean.

And I don't get the whole "The Lights Went Out" thing. Do they turn out the lights when they hang somebody?

And one last thing...

They HANGED an innocent man, not HUNG an innocent man. So not only is Little Sister a double murderer, but her grammar's bad.

Anyway, that is one of the worst songs ever written. Just garbage. Same dude wrote "Honey" ("See the tree, how big it's grown..."), and that's a steaming turd of a song too.
   84. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5693544)
I'd call the cops and yell at them.

It's a really bad idea to confront criminals without being armed. The guy takes exception and has a knife, and you could very well end up dead.

I'm not dying for a TV. If someone broke into my house the first thing I'd do is run into a room and shut the door. Then announce to them that I'm here and calling the police. Unless this is some John Wick film the burglar is going to flee at that point. If he doesn't I'm going to stay in that room until the cops arrive. If it turns out I'm in a John Wick movie I'm going to do my best to keep a barrier between me and the guy trying to get at me. I'll also if able start looking for something I can use as a weapon.

You have no weapon of any kind in your house? Not even a baseball bat?

I'd go get a gun and try to hold the guy for the police. Or at least get a good description and license plate # as he flees. Catching a criminal before he can victimize other people is a good act for a citizen.
   85. The Yankee Clapper Posted: June 16, 2018 at 06:59 PM (#5693545)
I'll also if able start looking for something I can use as a weapon.

So Brown's sin is that he was more proactive than McCoy? Brown acted responsibly and entirely within his rights. That he is the one being demonized by some just shows the extreme anti-gun position of those who clearly prefer that an armed citizen never interfere with a criminal going about his illegal business.
   86. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:08 PM (#5693549)

It's a really bad idea to confront criminals without being armed. The guy takes exception and has a knife, and you could very well end up dead.


Then I'm just calling the cops which is what I have done before. I wrote about it before but in DC behind my apartment was an alleyway that led to a parking lot for the surrounding apartments. Around 2:30am or so I'm awaken by drunken good times back there as the bars are closing. I witness out my window one of them backing into a car as they try to pull away and a couple of drunk guys rip open a door to an apartment building. I called the cops and they arrived about 90 seconds later since the station was just around the corner. Now according to some of the tough guys here was I supposed to instead pull my gun out and go out there and confront 20 drunken hooligans? That's my right, right? Thus I should do that?


You have no weapon of any kind in your house? Not even a baseball bat?

I'd go get a gun and try to hold the guy for the police. Or at least get a good description and license plate # as he flees. Catching a criminal before he can victimize other people is a good act for a citizen.


I don't have weapons laying around in every single room of my house. Being an alive citizen is also a good act. People are bad at probability. Why endanger your life for a toaster oven?

I don't live in an impoverished neighborhood. If somebody is breaking into homes the police come down quick and hard on that stuff. If they don't catch them immediately they'll change up patrols, put on extra patrols and such until they get them. Most communities do not tolerate break ins of homes and they don't go on for long. Usually it is one or two dumb idiots who are pretty stupid to think they can get richer by going into the well off communities to rob them. They might get away with it once or twice but they don't last long.
   87. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:10 PM (#5693550)
So Brown's sin is that he was more proactive than McCoy? Brown acted responsibly and entirely within his rights. That he is the one being demonized by some just shows the extreme anti-gun position of those who clearly prefer that an armed citizen never interfere with a criminal going about his illegal business.


A sin? I would say it was stupid, dangerous, and needless but not a sin.
   88. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:12 PM (#5693552)
Now according to some of the tough guys here was I supposed to instead pull my gun out and go out there and confront 20 drunken hooligans? That's my right, right? Thus I should do that?

Not unless you saw them attacking a person. If they were beating or raping somebody, that's exactly what you should do.

I don't have weapons laying around in every single room of my house.

Nice strawman. I said I'd go and get a gun. I have them in exactly one room of the house, and the safe.
   89. Harlond Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5693555)
Why did Brown buy a multimillion dollar, gated home in a neighborhood so sketchy he has to carry a gun when he's cutting the grass? Seems like an opportunity for a sharp realtor or money manager here. Or someone who sells locking mailboxes.

Brown is perfectly within his rights here, but safer and cheaper solutions seem readily available, and his failure to employ them is a legitimate complaint against Brown's judgment.
   90. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:15 PM (#5693556)

Not unless you saw them attacking a person. If they were beating or raping somebody, that's exactly what you should do.


But if they were taking my TV I should have confronted them for the good of the community, right?
   91. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:16 PM (#5693557)
If the thieves had run away, the cop would be OK with shooting them.

The cop can absolutely NOT do that.


Ok. He can chase them right? And he can tackle and subdue them if he catches them right? And if they get in a vehicle and speed away, he can get in his and and engage in high speed pursuit, right? Can a private citizen do any of those things?
   92. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:17 PM (#5693558)
So, if someone broke into your house, and started carrying things out, you'd just call the cops and let them do it?


We are not talking about that. We are talking about pulling a gun on someone standing on public property opening a mailbox.
   93. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:18 PM (#5693559)
But if they were taking my TV I should have confronted them for the good of the community, right?

In your house? Yes. You should attempt to detain them, and if they flee, get as good a description of them and their car as possible, so the police can catch them.

Burglary of a residence is defined as a violent crime precisely because of the high inherent risk of confrontation and violence. The next person they burglarize might be elderly or a woman, and get seriously hurt.
   94. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:19 PM (#5693561)
We are not talking about that. We are talking about pulling a gun on someone standing on public property opening a mailbox.

I wouldn't do that. On my property, yes. Not public property. But, I thought Brown was on private property?
   95. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:20 PM (#5693562)
You have no weapon of any kind in your house? Not even a baseball bat?


I do not. Unless it is daylight, someone would need a RPG to break into my house. I have hurricane doors and windows rated to 175 MPH. If someone uses a RPG to get into my house, they likely have something else far more deadly than anything I could legally own.
   96. Joe Bivens is NOT a clueless numpty Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:21 PM (#5693563)
Burglary of a residence is defined as a violent crime precisely because of the high inherent risk of confrontation and violence. The next person they burglarize might be elderly or a woman, and get seriously hurt.


Or you could get seriously hurt. I'll let the police handle it.
   97. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:21 PM (#5693564)
Ok. He can chase them right? And he can tackle and subdue them if he catches them right? And if they get in a vehicle and speed away, he can get in his and and engage in high speed pursuit, right? Can a private citizen do any of those things?

According to the law cited above, yes, you can tackle and subdue them. But you're apparently free to.

You could pursue him, to get his license # and locate him for police. There's no law against following anybody in their car. But, I wouldn't speed more than you normally would.
   98. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5693565)

Nice strawman. I said I'd go and get a gun. I have them in exactly one room of the house, and the safe.


What strawman? You asked me if I have a weapon in my house. I answered.



I'd go get a gun and try to hold the guy for the police.

Here's the thing though. you draw a gun on a guy and tell them to freeze you are forcing them to make a decision and that decision is no longer continue to rob the place or flee. The decision is now do I flee, do I stay and get possibly shot and definitely arrested, or I do go through the guy holding the gun on me. Are you prepared to fire that gun and kill someone? Are you prepared to wrestle with a criminal in what could be a fight for your life? Are you willing to risk possibly shooting your son in the next room or the neighbor next door, or just a plain old mixed up 13 year old? And for what? Your toaster oven? You want to keep a loaded gun pointed at somebody who could be potentially looking at life in jail if they get caught for 5 minutes? For 10 minutes?
   99. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:22 PM (#5693566)
But, I thought Brown was on private property?


Mailboxes are usually on the public right of way, so that mail carriers can deliver the mail from a truck. I do not know the specifics of Brown's neighborhood, but it's unlikely the kind where mailmen walk up to your front door to drop letters in the box.
   100. McCoy Posted: June 16, 2018 at 07:23 PM (#5693567)
In your house? Yes. You should attempt to detain them, and if they flee, get as good a description of them and their car as possible, so the police can catch them.

So I should attempt to detain 20 drunken hooligans? Thanks for the advice but I'm going to pass.
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