You said it. The scuttlebutt (posted by someone who says he's George Sherrill's brother) is that MacPhail received one offer for Roberts: Andy LaRoche, one for one.

If true, that's ridiculous. LaRoche is a nice prospect, but there's no way I'd trade Roberts straight up for him. I do wonder if the Dodgers will be a good match for the Roberts this offseason -- with Kent out of the picture, the Dodgers may be looking for a significant upgrade at 2b. OTOH, if Colletti is formally replaced by White, they might be even more stingy with their prospects.

BTW, Bay's and Robert's VORPs are almost identical.

The other issue is that the Orioles might not be as far from contention as a lot of people think.

This may be true, but they are still very, very far from contention. Signing a few star players is easier said than done.

MacPhail received one offer for Roberts: Andy LaRoche, one for one.

Chicks dig the longball.

When you have an undervalued player like Roberts it makes sense to lock him up long term, but the track record of 2B in their early 30s is pretty horrific. I'm completely baffled as to what to they should do with Roberts.

A couple of questions, is he signed beyond this year and how's his defense holding up?

Mora's owed over $9MM next year, including a buyout of his 2010 option. His defense is anywhere from below average to horrific. The upside is that the Phils wouldn't have to give up much to get him.

I just read Gammons article on Manny.

Wow.

Anyone who was watching John Lackey's run at a no-hitter continue in the seventh inning on Wednesday when Ramirez jogged to first in 5.7 seconds, realizes that he is one of those rare, gifted athletes who cares nothing about winning, about the integrity of the game or his teammates

This is just crazy to me. I never did, and still don't think about Manny this way.

I think he is one of the greatest competitors I have ever seen.

I think he is one of the greatest competitors I have ever seen.

I agree, and he is on the short list of hitters I'd want up with the season on the line. He just doesn't run out balls all the time. Or show the type of Paul O'Neill fire after striking out that some people demand.

He's a winning player, I'd go to war with him any day of the week, and I wouldn't touch a thing about the way he plays the game or his demeanor, because I think both of those things are related and tie into why he's been such a great player. The approach works for him, and I wouldn't want to monkey with it for a trivial gain, to say nothing of the fact that not going all out on a grounder to short can help save an injury.

"Yes or no? Does anyone else know?"

Kahrl is wrong. FA after '09.

However Manny was a model citizen for the first half of the season (maybe he shoved the trainer, but that was an FO leak, the first of many).

He also got in a fight with one of his teammates, which was captured on television. Manny just snapped, and snapped violently for some reason. Is that the kind of thing a FO should cover-up? I don't know.

Manny's work ethic is complicated. On one hand, he works like crazy on his hitting. From what I've read, he's often at the park early, taking batting practice and working out. He's a very hard worker on that aspect of his game - sure, he's gifted, but he also works hard at it. Other parts of the game, he's not as gifted, and he's just not as interested in those parts. Fielding, running out ground balls, he's good enough to get by, but his heart isn't really in it. I don't think you can question his dedication to hitting, though. He's amazing at it, but it's not effortless.

"BTW, Bay's and Roberts's VORPs are almost identical."

Yeah, but for better or worse, Bay wasn't named in the Mitchell Report, and Roberts was.

Manny's work ethic is complicated. On one hand, he works like crazy on his hitting.... Other parts of the game, he's not as gifted, and he's just not as interested in those parts. Fielding, running out ground balls, he's good enough to get by, but his heart isn't really in it...

Basically that sounds to me like someone who "works" hard at one aspect of his job because he ENJOYS that aspect- other aspects he doesn't enjoy so he does just enough to get by.

Mora's owed over $9MM next year, including a buyout of his 2010 option. His defense is anywhere from below average to horrific. The upside is that the Phils wouldn't have to give up much to get him.

I appreciate your honesty sir, but I think I'll go over to the other used car lots and see what they have to offer. :)

I just read Gammons article on Manny.

Wow.

Did you watch Gammo's video blurb on the ESPN page? Same sort of thing, a Grade A hatchet job. His scorn for Manny was stunning.

I know a long-time Red Sox beat writer reasonably well, from back when my brother and his son were playing ball together almost 15 years ago. Had lunch with him last year when he traveled to Seattle to cover a series with the Mariners there. He's always been mildly negative on Manny but willing to appreciate the work he puts in to be among the best at his craft. As of that lunch last year, that remained his opinion. A similar stance to the one Gammo's had over the years.

I am tempted to check in with him now to see what his take on this year is and if it's the case that, as MCoA and others have articulated, Manny's been something beyond Manny lately. Because Gammo seems to have jumped off his perch on the fence and fully embraced a far more stridently anti-Manny stance than he ever has in the past.

This may be true, but they are still very, very far from contention. Signing a few star players is easier said than done.

Sure, but it's not that farfetched. Look at the tigers in 2004 with Ordonez and IRod, or even the Orioles in the early 90's with Alomar and Palmiero. IIRC, after this year the Orioles payroll will be ~$50M, so they could easily throw $30-$40M at 2-3 FAs.

Yeah, but for better or worse, Bay wasn't named in the Mitchell Report, and Roberts was.

I have a hard time believing that that's causing teams to shy away, esp. given that his performance hasn't dropped off at all. I think it's far more likely that, as DKDC notes, chicks dig the longball.

Actually, according to Dial's system, Mora has been average defensively this year.

Anyone who was watching John Lackey's run at a no-hitter continue in the seventh inning on Wednesday when Ramirez jogged to first in 5.7 seconds, realizes that he is one of those rare, gifted athletes who cares nothing about winning, about the integrity of the game or his teammates

Did Gammons trash Manny like this when he hit a ball off the wall, went into his homerun trot, and ended up with a single while David Ortiz, of all people, scored from first?

Did that play show any less disrespect for the integrity of the game or his teammates?

I don't think so, but that can be forgiven if they are all celebrating a playoff win together. Now that Gammons wants to help his buddies run the bum out of town the same behavior on the field is worthy of a hatchet job.

Manny's work ethic is complicated. On one hand, he works like crazy on his hitting. From what I've read, he's often at the park early, taking batting practice and working out. He's a very hard worker on that aspect of his game - sure, he's gifted, but he also works hard at it. Other parts of the game, he's not as gifted, and he's just not as interested in those parts. Fielding, running out ground balls, he's good enough to get by, but his heart isn't really in it. I don't think you can question his dedication to hitting, though. He's amazing at it, but it's not effortless.

Sounds like Ted Williams.

Dayn's writing a Reggie Jackson bio. Did not know that. It sounds intriguing.

IIRC, after this year the Orioles payroll will be ~$50M, so they could easily throw $30-$40M at 2-3 FAs.

I estimate their payroll at ~$78MM for next year, assuming they don't make any moves. Scott, Markakis, Sherill, Guthrie, Ray, and Cabrera will all see raises in arbitration.

2010 is the year when the payroll really opens up. Ramon, Huff, Roberts, Mora, Walker, Baez, Bradford and Gibbons all come off the books. I have the payroll at ~$40MM for 2010, but there will be a lot of holes to fill.

They could go on a payroll dumping spree and free up some payroll a year early, but it's pretty difficult to do that at the same time you are wooing elite free agents.

Now that Gammons wants to help his buddies run the bum out of town the same behavior on the field is worthy of a hatchet job.

Of course, the situations are exactly the same. After all, immediately preceding the playoff win, Manny had just requested a trade, assaulted two members of his organization, and been involved in a flop-fest in left field.

It is entirely possible that Gammons has been offended enough by the entire sequence of events that he is no longer willing to overlook Manny's actions, as he has done previously. People are allowed to change their position when new information comes to light, after all.

Sure it was. Manny violated the #1 rule: do your best. He should get ripped a new one over that.

If that is the standard, Gammons deserves to be ripped too.

It is entirely possible that Gammons has been offended enough by the entire sequence of events that he is no longer willing to overlook Manny's actions, as he has done previously. People are allowed to change their position when new information comes to light, after all.

The Popeye defense for flip-flopping: "I’ve taken all I can take and I cans’t take no more"

I am tempted to check in with him now to see what his take on this year is and if it's the case that, as MCoA and others have articulated, Manny's been something beyond Manny lately. Because Gammo seems to have jumped off his perch on the fence and fully embraced a far more stridently anti-Manny stance than he ever has in the past.

I mentioned in another thread that I think it all turned when Manny shoved Jack McCormick. Yeah, when he shoved Youkilis in the dugout it seemed odd, but a lot of people would like to shove Youkilis. (Line forms to the right, folks.) Manny, shortly before game time in Houston, demanded from McCormick something like 40 more comp tickets for an already-sold-out game; then, when told he probably couldn't have them, Manny shoved the old man to the ground and told him to do his f'ing job. Was Manny just being, er, eccentric? No way.

Gammons has been around this team a long time. He's probably good friends with McCormick, as I'd expect most of the media to be. I think the McCormick incident was when things turned toward the unforgivable.

The Popeye defense for flip-flopping: "I’ve taken all I can take and I cans’t take no more"

Hey, it happens. I'm sure pretty much all of us have had at least one incident in our lives where something (or a series of things) finally pushed us to the breaking point. Personally, I think that the recent sequence with Manny was one of those things for Gammons.

I didn't exonerate Manny of anything. You are impossible. I also didn't accuse Schilling of bigotry and specifically rearticulated my point to avoid that misreading. This is pointless.

EDIT: That's all. see you later, kevin.

Perhaps Kevin is Larry Lucciano.

No KEVIN, this one is ALL on the mafioso sleazeballs who own the team.

Dayn's writing a Reggie Jackson bio. Did not know that. It sounds intriguing.

How many statheady guys have written bios? I'm talking baseball so Allen Barra's bio of Bear Bryant doesn't count. Off the top of my head, I can think of John Sickels on Bob Feller and Goldman on Casey Stengal. I didn't get that far with the Feller bio. Goldman's was a little preachy about some BPro principles but was excellent.

For whatever it's worth, Gammons on Mike and Mike this morning said that Terry Francona is having health problems that can be directly attributed to having Manny on the team.

In Kevin's world the Redsox can do NO WRONG:

Really, this one is ALL on Manny.

The reason star players leave Boston disgruntled is because they want to stay and play but can't. That so many players felt hurt when leaving says something positive about the team, not negative.

Boggs dug his own grave. With Clemens, they made him a fair offer that insulted him because it wouldn't have made him the highest paid player in baseball. Vaughn was eating his way out of the league.

No, it was just Pedro being pissed he wasn't going to get what he wanted.

He's JUST like a Yankee fan, except he roots for the Sawx....

For whatever it's worth, Gammons on Mike and Mike this morning said that Terry Francona is having health problems that can be directly attributed to having Manny on the team.

Was Manny stabbing him every day?

Did Manny give him VD or something?

No, it was something like Manny's presence on the team being a huge moral conflict for Francona. Maybe he has an ulcer or something. Apparently people who know him are "very concerned..." it was 11 hours ago and I wasn't paying attention that closely.

Or he could have been stabbing him every day.

Gammo on ESPN last night mentioned offhand that Tito had lost 15 pounds and was having trouble sleeping because of the whole Manny fiasco. Really surprising comment; totally came out of left field.

Gammons has always been a tool you feed "inside info" and let him run with it.

FO running its usual train-out-a-town AND Manny being a completely selfish prick aren't mutually exclusive events.

Millionaires will be scumbags because they can be.

God, but Peter Gammons is a worthless human being sometimes.

Note: this is not an endorsement of Manny Ramirez, who is not exactly running for sainthood either.

How is it a hatchet job if they're telling the truth? Those things really happened, right? He really did push down an old man, loaf on ground balls, and roll around like a retarded walrus in the Anaheim outfield, then laugh about it. That was his cold calculated strategy to become a free agent? And it's possible that Boston's front office really and truly were tired of his act and wanted him out, irrespective of how many options he had left, or how Machiavellian Lucchino is supposed to be. The great luxury they have now is the pair of rings on their fingers, which has bought a lot of goodwill and credibility with the fans and the industry alike. So maybe for once this wasn't the usual high-stakes game of world domination they're usually accused of playing, but simply the exercising of a simple principle that they don't want the guy around anymore because he's bad news, HOF talent or not. Kudos to them for that.

He really did push down an old man, loaf on ground balls, and roll around like a retarded walrus in the Anaheim outfield, then laugh about it.

Why was it okay to shove an old man when it happened? Why did no one really give a ####? Where was Gammons articles when his supposed friend was shoved? Is he on some time-delay response since the stroke?

He did all of these things and the FO did nothing, Boston fans brushed it off as Manny being Manny and cheered him along, the press ignored his boorish behavior when he was part of the family.

None of these folks get kudos now for 'standing up to Manny' when it merely serves their current self-interest.

None of these folks get kudos now for 'standing up to Manny' when it merely serves their current self-interest.

Yeah, those are good points. I can't really defend Gammo's mouthpiecery, but I will apologize a little for the Red Sox' obligation to still put a good team on the field. They got rid of a bad citizen and made a good baseball trade, which isn't always easy to do. That probably speaks more to Manny's talent than anything else. Without knowing all the facts, it seems Manny definitely should have been more severely disciplined for the assault, and I for one thought exactly that at the time. Sam M. said upthread that this was a cold calculated strategery by Manny all along, though, and I just don't see that. It's just a bunch of stuff that happened.

To venture briefly off-topic, Gammons also said that sometimes he and Buster Olney (who was co-hosting the show) sometimes feel the need to remind the country that baseball is played between the two coasts.

That was pretty much the highlight of my day.

Sounds like Ted Williams.

If free agency had been around in Williams' day, would have played his whole career in Boston? If not, where would he have been likely to end up?

The Bronx.

Interesting thread, if a little odd.

One thing about the Ramirez stuff that I find interesting is that the guy never says much to the press, even through surrogates or interpreters. I don't recall, for example, the obligatory ghost-written "I deeply regret..." press release after he pushed the traveling sec'y, although I may have missed it. He may be a cancer, but he is in some ways a quiet one. Also, no one in the FO says much directly; neither does Francona. So, what we mostly get is whatever Gammons parrots from his sources, and hatchet jobs from Shaughnessy et al. with an occasional bizarre quote attributed to Ramirez.

As far as "what really happened", my take is that Ramirez felt he was being dissed by the Red Sox when they didn't pick up the option and/or extend him and started pouting. This happened because of the type of guy Ramirez is and due to cultural issues. I have not worked with many Dominicans in the classroom/school setting, but I have worked with many guys from Mexico, of Mexican descent, guys from other Spanish-speaking countries, as well as with Brazilians. MOST of them are very much into getting treated with "respect" and how they interpret what respect means is often at variance with the way it is interpreted here, and they respond accordingly if "dissed." In enforcing rules and/or conducting business, you have to be aware of these issues, and handle yourself accordingly. This doesn't mean you "let them get away with stuff" it just means that shows of temper, etc, may be seen as more personal breaches than one might assume. Consult Ed Wade for further details.

Also, Ramirez likely has the gargantuan sense of entitlement that so many wealthy and/or famous folks seem to, and even his biggest supporters have never sold him as being emotionally mature. Add that all up and you get the MRI, the reports about Francona's health, the loafing etc.

As to the role of the FO and where the reporters got their "info", I would assume that some players said stuff and that some of it came through Lucchino and Lucchino surrogates with Henry's approval. LL is very skilled at media manipulation, as long as he HIMSELF avoids much face time, since he is an abrasive dude to say the least (I was on the periphery of conversations with him a couple of times, but was not introduced and know/knew people who dealt with him quite a bit in SD). He also has a very deep need for public approval, so the "kudos" the Red Sox are getting for "pulling it off" and standing up to a "spoiled brat" are music to LL's ears. I don't know if this was a fully orchestrated spin campiagn, but if it were, it would be a task LL would have taken on with both skill and vigor.

As to Epstein, I doubt he got emotional about it either way. I think his view is that Ramirez's salary could be better spent elsewhere, and so he welcomed the chance to trade him. I don't agree with the idea that the Red Sox were in a huge bind due to Ramirez's behavior; I think the potential buyers figured that the key would be whether it was worth giving Ramirez what he wanted and I don't think his "cancerousness" scared anybody. The Dodgers, as long as the Red Sox put up the money, met those needs.

On the field, both Ramirez and Bay are adjusting to new leagues and new pitchers and will have to do so quickly. But, I don't think it changes the calculus that much. I still think the DBacks will nose out the Dodgers in the NL West, and I think the Red Sox will make post-season, and would have if they had kept Ramirez. The Rays, I think, will have one more downturn, but with Wang, Posada, and Matsui MIA, I think Tampa gets the other spot ahead of NYY, and ahead of whomever loses Min/Chi.

In terms of Ramirez the player, I am basically with DiPerna. I respect Dial's defensive metrics, and I know what they show, but I still see Ramirez as a winning type of player and a guy I want at the plate with the game on the line. Ramirez may not sprint to first like Gammons wants him to, but he does stay on the field most of the time and remains a hell of a hitter. One side note: given Ramirez's age and apparent lack of interest in all aspects of the game other than hitting, it seems he would be the ideal DH, but of course he has been playing on a team that has a truly great hitter who also needs to DH. And, some of the #### Ramirez gets comes from his antics in the field, which of coures would go away if he could DH.

I have predicted several times that Ramirez's next stop will be Cleveland. I think it is by far the most logical place for him. Given that Garko has played poorly this year, and the silly, massive investment in Hafner, I wonder if the Indians would consider putting Hafner back at 1b and letting him sort of stand out there like Gimabi does, and signing Ramirez to DH and hit cleanup.