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Thursday, April 03, 2014

Francesa delivers screeching anti-paternity-leave rant

Francesspool: Asleep at the mic…asleep at the wheel.

Mike Francesa isn’t a big fan of paternity leave.

The WFAN radio host blasted Mets second baseman Daniel Murphy for missing the team’s first two games to be with his wife, Victoria, in Florida for the birth of their son, Noah, who was born Monday.

MLB rules allow a player to take three days away from the team on paternity leave, but Francesa believes they should never take the time.

“You’re a major-league baseball player. You can hire a nurse,’’ he said on his Wednesday show. “Whaddya gonna do, sit there and look at your wife in the hospital bed for two days?”

Murphy will be back with the Mets for Thursday’s series finale against the Nationals at Citi Field, but Francesa was under the impression he was going to be gone for 10 days.

“First of all, the first two days, your wife is in the hospital anyway, you’re there with her,’’ he said. “And the baby’s in the hospital. So you’re not taking the baby home usually till the third day. You think the third day that Daniel Murphy’s going to be in charge of nursing that baby the third day? … That’s my point. He’s not there to take care of the other kids, he’s not there to nurse the baby.”

Repoz Posted: April 03, 2014 at 05:15 PM | 454 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   101. BrianBrianson Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:14 PM (#4679265)
Is it the class difference or the time lag difference?


Professional class people have switched from no father present to father present. Working class people less so, because unscheduled day(s) off are much harder for them to obtain (and typically, they'll need the money more to boot).

As far as time lags go, I expect to catch a lot of #### when I start distributing cigars, but sometimes the old ways are the best ways.
   102. Fancy Pants Handles lap changes with class Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:17 PM (#4679268)
My father was in Vietnam when I was born. The jerk!

I hope he at least brought you back some PTSD.
   103. GregD Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:20 PM (#4679269)
Professional class people have switched from no father present to father present. Working class people less so, because unscheduled day(s) off are much harder for them to obtain (and typically, they'll need the money more to boot).
Again I don't think this is quite as true as you think.

Two things are happening:
1) There are class differences.
2) There are time differences.

Are working-class guys going to have a harder time than white collar guys getting a day off? Probably though honestly it depends since some giant companies that employ lots of laborers have decent policies.

Are working-class guys going to have an easier time getting off now for their kids' birth than they did in the 1970s or 1980s? Undoubtedly, in my view.

Ed to add: Despite the class differences, if I wanted to know whether a father was present, I would always ask "what year" before I asked "what job." I think--but could be wrong--that fewer white collar dads in the 70s and 80s were present than working-class dads now even if there is a gap between working-class and upper-class dads now.
   104. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:22 PM (#4679274)
I hope he at least brought you back some PTSD.

Nope, only this necklace made of human ears.



   105. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:24 PM (#4679277)

It's threads like this where Ray's absence is most notably felt.

I know my dad was there when my younger brother was born. I actually don't know whether he was there for my birth, but I assume he was. I don't really care but I'm sure my mom did at the time.

Every couple needs to determine what's right for them in this situation and it's really nobody else's place to judge. I realize not every guy has a job that enables him to be there for the birth, but I think it's the right thing to give your employees the option to do so and take some amount of paternity leave. Not being a parent, I don't know what our official policy is, but I've never had an issue with the guys who work for me taking 1 or 2 weeks off in that situation.
   106. The Good Face Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:26 PM (#4679279)
Professional class people have switched from no father present to father present. Working class people less so, because unscheduled day(s) off are much harder for them to obtain (and typically, they'll need the money more to boot).


Working class people are a lot less likely to be married to whoever the mother of the kid is.
   107. Morty Causa Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:29 PM (#4679280)
Isn't there a story about Ted Williams missing the birth of one of his children because he was on a fishing trip?

Yes, there was. The child was born prematurely.
   108. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:31 PM (#4679282)
This thread is crying out for Harveys to jump in and tell us he delivered all of his children himself with only a Swiss Army knife and a bucket of water and then an hour later he, the mother and the baby were all on the back 40 plowing.
   109. PreservedFish Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:34 PM (#4679286)
I'm going to back bunyon up on his right to an opinion. Before I had a kid, I heard a zillion people tell me the way their lives had changed. So I kind of knew what was going to happen going into it. There were some surprises, of course, but it's not like I was totally unable to fathom parenthood before it actually happened to me.
   110. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:44 PM (#4679290)
Do women not get anesthesia for C-sections?


This is most often done via an Epidural (lidocaine with fentanyl). My wife is an anesthesiologist and she had 2 scheduled C's, there's no way she'd go through with them w/o the epidural,even if you often end up with the spinal headache. I was there, I didn't peek over the sheet, or watch the whole administering of the epidural (big ass needle).
   111. bunyon Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:45 PM (#4679291)
Thanks, fish. I have enough family and friends who've had kids to know that it changes people. Usually for the better (one notable exception I won't recount here). It's clearly an enormous change. And a beautiful one. And an important one (to society - not just those involved). I'm only discussing the actual birth. Which, as a moment, may be enormously important symbolically but a father's presence is not the thing that does the change. My dad wasn't there and he would back all you fathers here up on it's importance and change. Good lord, mom would have shot him had he tried to come in. Of course, he'd have shot himself had he thought to go in. And he was as present and involved a dad as a boy could hope for.


What happened to Ray?
   112. Random Transaction Generator Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:47 PM (#4679293)
I still don't think having dad in the room is a necessity, no matter how nice it is. I think this because kids have been being born forever and dad's for the most part haven't been around.


I still don't think having a sterile birthing environment is necessity, no matter how nice it is. I think this because kids have been being born forever and sterile birthing environments for the most part haven't been around.
   113. GregD Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4679295)
This is most often done via an Epidural (lidocaine with fentanyl). My wife is an anesthesiologist and she had 2 scheduled C's, there's no way she'd go through with them w/o the epidural,even if you often end up with the spinal headache. I was there, I didn't peek over the sheet, or watch the whole administering of the epidural (big ass needle).


On epidurals and the reasons you'd want someone with you:
1) a family member requested an epidural during labor (not a c-section) and the physician decided on his own instead to put her out. She was confused and scared (young) and woke up with a baby next to her. This is a while ago but still.

2) a family member during a another non-c-section labor had an anesthesiologist put the epidural in incorrectly and numbed her upper, not lower body, and was losing control of her speech as she was trying to explain why she was in agonizing pain. Luckily her sister was there and intervened over and over until the doctor stopped saying it was normal and recognized that in fact things were not normal at all.

I'm super pro-doctor. But my family members who are doctors all say the same thing: You need someone around as much as possible to be your advocate during procedures.
   114. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:51 PM (#4679301)
What happened to Ray?

The horrible truth about the Great BBTF Shutdown of '14 is that someone spilled water on Ray's CPU.
   115. spike Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:54 PM (#4679303)
I hope he at least brought you back some PTSD.

Nope, only this necklace made of human ears.


Gypped! All I ever got were silk pajamas and a coolie hat.
   116. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4679308)
bunyon - you obviously have a right to your own opinion, I was asking so I could understand where exactly you were coming from. Your personal opinions on the day of childbirth are to me, ridiculous. You want someone who just had a child in the morning to go and play the game that night? To say nothing of their normal routine being interrupted by missing out on their daily morning schedule you want a player to concentrate fully on baseball and assume they can do so knowing their wife gave birth just a few hours before the game? Also, keep in mind here - the average 'active labor' period is 8 hours. If your child is born in the morning, there is a very good chance you got little to no sleep the previous night. Do you enjoy seeing an error in the field and the player going 0-4 with 3 k's?
   117. dave h Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:01 PM (#4679310)
As a father, I would have been really sad to have missed the birth of either of my kids. I really still can't imagine not being there. I think my wife felt the same way, and didn't particularly want any other family member in the room. These were big moments for us to share - both the difficulties and the overwhelming joy. The fact that more dads are in the room for the birth comes down to two things: we are trending to more participation by the dad at all stages (including some dads staying at home with the kids) and we are getting wealthier as a society, which means dad can take some time off. There's no reason (for anyone other than the mom) to criticize a father who misses the birth but is involved afterwards, but I think most if not all dads want to be there and it's great that many of us can.

Edit: It's also worth noting that there are a lot of misconceptions about how labor and delivery works, mostly because TV treatments of it are ridiculous (Woman's water breaks - hop in a cap to the hospital STAT!) I learned a lot in just a few hours of class and by reading a couple books.
   118. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4679313)
39 Rome understood it paid to be an #######


That hasn't worked very well for me.
   119. bunyon Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:08 PM (#4679314)
Do you enjoy seeing an error in the field and the player going 0-4 with 3 k's?

No. It's why I don't follow the Mets.

I'm super pro-doctor. But my family members who are doctors all say the same thing: You need someone around as much as possible to be your advocate during procedures.

Absolutely. And it could well be the father.


Look, you guys who have had kids. Great. My argument has never been that you SHOULDN'T be there. Just that you don't need to be. If you want to be and your employer/family/mother are cool with it, great. Have at. I'm going to bow out now because clearly for a lot of you there is no middle ground between "you don't have to be there" and Francesa's outrage that he would be there. I have no problem with Murphy taking the day. I'd have no problem with him playing the game. Good for the Mets they let him go. Good for you guys that you went. It really doesn't affect me much in anyway, so I'm happy to let you think you were as medically necessary as a sterile birthing environment.

Actually, before I go: day of birth? Sure, if the guy went through it all with the mother, you probably don't want him there. Next day? He should play, in my opinion. How many days do you fathers think he should get? The kid is going to be a helpless infant the rest of the season, should he get the rest of the season off?
   120. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4679321)
How many days do you fathers think he should get?


As many as he needs. If Murphy wants to play the same day, fine. If Murphy wants to take a week off, fine. If Murphy uses the birth of a child to take the month of, then baseball probably isn't his top priority and should probably reexamine what his future will be, but it's his decision to make.

Look at Ryan Dempster - was going to get paid $14.something million for the season, figured family was more important (he has a child with health issues) and figured he had made enough and done enough to call it a career. I have nothing but respect for the guy for doing that.

ETA - I have never said the father 'needs' to be there or even 'should' be there. I personally will be there, but hey, it's not for everyone. I take umbrage with your opinion that 'meh, whatever, the father isn't *needed* so he should be at work'.
   121. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:27 PM (#4679326)
As an aside, companies that grant equal amounts of paternity and maternity leave are batshit crazy.

The typical 12 weeks for the mother is woefully insufficient. 12 weeks for the father is ludicrous over-kill.

If a company is going to allocate 12 weeks/parent in maternity leave it should be 23 weeks for the mother and 1 for the father.
   122. smileyy Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:31 PM (#4679329)
Has anyone ever said "I wish I had spent less time with my child after he/she was born"?
   123. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4679331)
Has anyone ever said "I wish I had spent less time with my child after he/she was born"?


Well, Francesca's father, apparently.
   124. The Good Face Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:32 PM (#4679332)
Has anyone ever said "I wish I had spent less time with my child after he/she was born"?


Ever had a colicky baby?
   125. Lassus Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:37 PM (#4679337)
No. It's why I don't follow the Mets.

Just because I don't care about children doesn't mean I'm not reading the thread.
   126. bunyon Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:40 PM (#4679342)
As many as he needs. If Murphy wants to play the same day, fine. If Murphy wants to take a week off, fine. If Murphy uses the birth of a child to take the month of, then baseball probably isn't his top priority and should probably reexamine what his future will be, but it's his decision to make.

My point is that there clearly IS a line. How much time is enough? How much is overkill?

ETA - I have never said the father 'needs' to be there or even 'should' be there. I personally will be there, but hey, it's not for everyone. I take umbrage with your opinion that 'meh, whatever, the father isn't *needed* so he should be at work'.

Isn't what I've said. I think it's great for fathers to be involved and there if they like. I'm saying it's great FOR THE FATHER and FOR THE MOTHER. It is not, for the baby, necessary. The role could be subsumed by others close to the mother. I'm not saying that makes it okay to force it on them but that it could be. In other words, it is a choice. A choice I might well make (I assume I would) but is not the same as the mother being present which is a whole lot more necessary. Like infinity plus one.

As an aside, companies that grant equal amounts of paternity and maternity leave are batshit crazy.

The typical 12 weeks for the mother is woefully insufficient. 12 weeks for the father is ludicrous over-kill.

If a company is going to allocate 12 weeks/parent in maternity leave it should be 23 weeks for the mother and 1 for the father.


I completely agree with this. It doesn't help that of the fathers I've worked with, they take two weeks, attend the birth, do some housework and each and everyone of them have worked some golf in.

Like I say, everyone will agree that, at some point, a dad needs to go back to work. We're just arguing about when. I disagree with Francesa that he shouldn't leave (and even if I did agree with him, he makes his point in his usual ugly way so that if he argued something I have as a core value I'd go against him).

Anyway, I have meetings. You guys go play with your kids (serioulsy, it's nice out, go have a catch).

   127. spike Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:52 PM (#4679360)
   128. BrianBrianson Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:52 PM (#4679361)
As an aside, companies that grant equal amounts of paternity and maternity leave are batshit crazy.


If you want equal outcomes (hardly a universal thing to want, but common enough), then you more or less have to mandate this. Depending on your job, the amount of time needed off for actually being pregnant may be low, and men can be equally as good at watching to make sure an infant isn't eaten by stray dogs as women are. (And, of course, by enforcing it early on, you'll encourage parents to take more equitable responsibility for being parents). Give dad twelve weeks off to start with to just sit and watch the kid, and he'll do more doctor's appointments, picking up kids from school, etc.
   129. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:54 PM (#4679364)
Right. No one should be telling anyone how to handle this very personal situation. I will say that, yes, most couples I talk to today say they want the father in the room and, like many of you, "can't imagine him not being there". On the other hand, when pressed, it's clear the father makes no real contribution beyond some sort of vague "he was there" that could be solved any number of ways.
That's crazy talk. I did all the work; all my wife did was lie there and wait.

I do get the point though that you have a job, you're being paid a lot of money, you should make every effort to be there.
If this is football, where there are only 16 games, maybe. But this is baseball. Come on. Unless you're Cal Ripken, you're going to miss games anyway. This is a far better excuse than most.
   130. base ball chick Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:54 PM (#4679365)
you males who are not fathers really don't know what you are talking about

when you go into a csection room you have to wear a coverup suit from neck to feet, wear gloves, a surgical hat and boots. you don't "get in the way" during a freaking csection. and if it is a real life threatening emergency, they don't let anyone in the room and the mother gets put to sleep (not permanently, of course)

as for labor, it is good to have your man there even if he is a pain in the ass. labor is VERY
VERY
painful trust me on this. I'd like to see one of youse macho men try it. the least you can do is be there.

and males really DO bond with their brand new babies. I've seen it. not just mine.

if my partner did not want to be with me during labor and delivery, but wanted to pop in afterward then leave, you best believe I'd be finding a new man. and so would pretty much most grrls.

oh yeah
and the reason so many poor men are not around is because they got no expensive family lawyer to help them get rights to be with and help raise their kids and the courts are prejudice
   131. Shredder Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4679370)
My point is that there clearly IS a line. How much time is enough? How much is overkill?
That's for each couple to decide for themselves, taking everything, including their work responsibilities, into account.
It doesn't help that of the fathers I've worked with, they take two weeks, attend the birth, do some housework and each and everyone of them have worked some golf in.
Depending on what you do for a living, I'll bet a lot of them probably also work from home during that time. What are you, the paternity leave police?
   132. jacksone (AKA It's OK...) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 01:57 PM (#4679372)

Isn't what I've said. I think it's great for fathers to be involved and there if they like. I'm saying it's great FOR THE FATHER and FOR THE MOTHER. It is not, for the baby, necessary. The role could be subsumed by others close to the mother. I'm not saying that makes it okay to force it on them but that it could be. In other words, it is a choice. A choice I might well make (I assume I would) but is not the same as the mother being present which is a whole lot more necessary. Like infinity plus one.


This...this is not what you said upthread. You said:
But for an awful lot of these, everything goes fine and the event is mostly sitting around and eating crappy food and smiling at everyone. Nice, but not worth giving a day off
That reads a lot more like my quote than your latest post. Hey, maybe we have gotten you to revise your opinion, if so, cool.

My point is that there clearly IS a line. How much time is enough? How much is overkill?

No possible way of saying. Was it vaginal or c-section? Were their complications? 1st time or 5th time? In the home city or in a different city? Support system around to help? Was it a long birth or short? Is the baby healthy? Etc, etc, etc. In my view it takes as long as it takes.
   133. Dudefella Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:04 PM (#4679378)
I have no problem saying that it's a choice for the mother to make. She's the one going through the painful, scary experience. At times my wife reporting feeling as if she was being split and two, and that she felt like she was going to die. Surely if my wife hadn't wanted me in the room, I would've gone next door and worried. But my wife did want me in the room, and I was very happy to have been there.

But Francesca and his ilk (yeah, it's Francesca, he gets ilk status) don't want couples to have the choice. It's all "nut up Murphy, #### your wife and get back to the ballfield where you belong!" That's horseshit.

Equally horseshit is the notion that paternity leave is a waste. Again, it's called bonding. Men get to bond with their babies. And yeah, I wasn't breastfeeding. And yeah lot of what I did was housework: cooking, cleaning, and making sure that my wife was comfortable and had what she needed; i.e., being a support and a partner. I sure as #### didn't play any golf.
   134. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4679381)
you males who are not fathers really don't know what you are talking about

But I have kitties!
   135. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:05 PM (#4679382)
Snapper is laboring under the perisistent misunderstanding that giving birth is a medical procedure. It is not. Complications can certainly arise, but complkcations can arise during any natural act from eating to sex to crapping.

Childbirth and gall bladder surgery are not analogous at all.

More women than ever are having their babies at home these days, reversing close to 200 years of medicalization. God bless those ladies, their midwives, doulas, and understanding, supportive partners.
   136. Dudefella Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:07 PM (#4679387)
More fuel for the fire:

http://deadspin.com/brendon-ayanbadejo-implies-miami-traded-him-for-taking-1558135899

Brendon Ayabdaejo implies Miami [Dolphins] traded him for taking paternity leave

Meh, can't figure out how to get links to work.
   137. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:08 PM (#4679388)
I completely agree with this. It doesn't help that of the fathers I've worked with, they take two weeks, attend the birth, do some housework and each and everyone of them have worked some golf in.


We get 2 weeks, I took five days the first one, and 4 days the second time, because A. C section, and wanted to be there, B. C-Section, your spouse isn't getting up much at all in the following days. C. C-Section, once we went home (end of the following day) she can't walk stairs and shouldn't lift anything for a few days. She needs a lot of help basically, and if you have another kid, somebody's gotta help with that, and not all of us have family two seconds away. We specifically told my parents not to come visit for a couple weeks until we got situated.

full disclosure: on kid #2, my wife told me after we got home (day three), and after I took kid #1 to school, 'go play golf'. I did.
   138. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:13 PM (#4679397)
Though snapper may have a point about equal maternity patrrnity leave for the simple reason that a father cannot nurse a child.
   139. Shredder Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:13 PM (#4679398)
full disclosure: on kid #2, my wife told me after we got home (day three), and after I took kid #1 to school, 'go play golf'. I did.
Right. I'm guessing that there are periods of time where the mother would like to be alone with the newborn. Look out if you work with bunyon, though, because he's all geared up to rat you out to the boss.
   140. Dudefella Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4679402)
I'm guessing that there are periods of time where the mother would like to be alone with the newborn.


There's an easy way to tell: you ask. What you don't do is assume that because some moms might like some time alone with their newborn, all new fathers should go back to work after three days.

Equally, some men might (gasp) also want some time alone at home with their newborn without having to worry about work.
   141. DL from MN Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:17 PM (#4679404)
You need someone around as much as possible to be your advocate during procedures.


I'm still glad that my wife wanted me around and didn't want her family in the same building. There are a lot of moving parts beyond the childbirth. 3 days isn't that much time, especially if the player doesn't live in the same city as the baseball games that are being played.

I will agree that there is a lull post-birth where the husband doesn't have much to do unless he's parenting the rest of the kids. That all changes as soon as the baby goes home and the nurses are gone.
   142. GregD Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:18 PM (#4679405)
More women than ever are having their babies at home these days, reversing close to 200 years of medicalization. God bless those ladies, their midwives, doulas, and understanding, supportive partners.
I am super pro-midwife, son of a medical midwife, and we used medical midwives for both of our children and would do so again 1000 times out of 1000. I have known great OBs and have nothing against them, but a woman is much more likely to be heard by a midwife than an OB and a thousand times more likely to get attention. The number of women whose labors are sped up to fit an OB's schedule is horrifying.

That said, my mother--who did home births--always urged people not to do if they had a decent birth center option. If you don't have any birth centers, that's one thing. But a good birth center replicates the control and comfort of home with the medical backup. Birth remains risky for both the mother and the baby; the way we've responded to that risk is often counterprodutive, but it's important that people understand that there are serious risks involved. I've known two people who were within 10-20 minutes of death before someone left the room and called for an ambulance while their lay (non-medically trained) midwife assured everyone that everything was normal.
   143. Manny Coon Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4679415)
The comment about Germany upthread is interesting; I work for at a large German company in America but they only give fathers here one day off, a lot different than their workers in Germany it sounds like. They were however ok with me hoarding PTO and using a full month of all at once when the baby was born.

My wife had an unplanned C-Section because the baby was breech, she definitely wanted me in there for it and needed a lot help while she was recovering. Neither of us really has worthwhile family around to help us out.

I'm also very grateful for modern medicine including C-Section, breech birth is not pleasant without it.
   144. base ball chick Posted: April 04, 2014 at 02:46 PM (#4679436)
i did not even think about having babies anywhere but a big time hospital because i had a very high risk pregnancy
i would not ever even think about having a baby at home because bad shtt can happen in a minute and if you need emergency csection, too bad for mybe both of you

i don't know ANY babydaddy who did not go to the hospital to see his baby get born if he could do it. and i mean any color or religion or ethnic group. amost every male i personally know has told me that seeing his baby get born was the most awesome thing that ever happened to him. like my cousin told me - you ain't got much in this world, but that baby, it's YOURS and you made it and you're holding it and loving it.

i asked my husband to ask some of the males he works with if they were with their babymama when their baby born - and these are not rich guys, they all just working guys. and they were ALL there. he said if the babymama don't want you thre, it ain't your baby or she got a new man

as for the breastfeeding stuff
you DO know that lots of mamis feed formula, right?
you DO know that a lot of women too sick or too tired to feed the baby after it gets born and the daddy WANTS to
you DO know that a grrrl is damm tired after all that labor and it is nice to have your man helping out with the baby so as you can sleep. also telling your mama to butt out it is YOUR baby not hers. wimmen got no manners when it comes to other wimmens' babies

as for wanting alone time with the baby
well, everyone wants to come into the hospital and fool with your babies. your husband keeps them out and don't let them come and grab the baby from you. and yes, i DID wish i could be like a cat mother and just go into the closet and hide out with just me and my babies without no one else, but you know, my Husband, he looked so incredibly happy sitting there holding his babies, i couldn't tell him that.
   145. Howie Menckel Posted: April 04, 2014 at 03:18 PM (#4679474)

Francesa-hating columnist Phil Mushnick reminds us in today's NY Post of Mike's rude dismissal of a caller from a few weeks ago who wondered if Mike thought UConn could "make a run" in the NCAAs. the gift that keeps on giving!
   146. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: April 04, 2014 at 03:55 PM (#4679504)
The horrible truth about the Great BBTF Shutdown of '14 is that someone spilled water on Ray's CPU.

So, seriously, did Ray "officially" leave, or has he just not been around?

I'm quite sad that we lost Bob Tufts.
   147. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 04, 2014 at 04:11 PM (#4679512)

So, seriously, did Ray "officially" leave, or has he just not been around?


His last post was Jan. 26 and his last visit Jan. 31. I don't know what prompted his exodus.
   148. Gaelan Posted: April 04, 2014 at 04:34 PM (#4679524)

I'm quite sad that we lost Bob Tufts.


You scared me for a second there.

Has he left? How does one officially leave? Do you have to send a memo?
   149. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 04:48 PM (#4679535)
bbc- no.doubt that many women choose to formula feed for a variety of reasons and have every right to.exercise that choice. My point was only that given the overwhelming scientific and rational evodnce
   150. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: April 04, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4679536)
Has he left? How does one officially leave? Do you have to send a memo?


The traditional way is to post a sniffy comment about how everyone here is beneath your notice. Bob's was in post 14 on this thread. (Although I think I remember sticking his head in about a month ago, then leaving again)
   151. Tom T Posted: April 04, 2014 at 04:49 PM (#4679538)
Depending on what you do for a living, I'll bet a lot of them probably also work from home during that time.


Agreed, for all three of our birth experiences, I certainly had opportunities to get in to give my lectures and to work on papers/proposals while helping out at home. Now, if I were a car mechanic or some other manufacturing/machining job...yeah, probably not a lot of opportunity to work from home, but certainly my line of work was amenable.

That said, my primary activity was largely ensuring our older children knew that they were important to us, as well --- trips to the zoo or museums, dinners out while my wife and newborn slept, etc. Heck, I also was coaching baseball and soccer with my oldest son, so I imagine bunyon would have had a field day.
   152. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4679540)
bbc- no.doubt that many women choose to formula feed for a variety of reasons and have every right to.exercise that choice. My point was only that given the overwhelming scientific and rational evidence that exclusive breast feeding for at least six months is optimal for mother and baby alike when possible, as a society we should be doing everything possible to make that option as easy and feasible as possible, from offering generous paid maternity leave to being culturally permissive of open public nursing everywhere. Thr trends right nlw are good in all demographics (except AA women where rates remain low for likely socioeconomic as well as cultural reasons)
   153. Gaelan Posted: April 04, 2014 at 04:58 PM (#4679547)
The traditional way is to post a sniffy comment about how everyone here is beneath your notice. Bob's was in post 14 on this thread. (Although I think I remember sticking his head in about a month ago, then leaving again)


Good lord, and in response to Kevin no less.
   154. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: April 04, 2014 at 05:22 PM (#4679561)
By the rules of baseball, the Mets are technically eligible to advance to the World Series. If Murphy, by the collectively-bargained contract, is able to take three WS games off because of a childbirth, would that change anyone's position?

I was watching TV, and the host snarled "It's just a few games of 162!". But what if it wasn't?
   155. spike Posted: April 04, 2014 at 05:38 PM (#4679568)
The traditional way is to post a sniffy comment about how everyone here is beneath your notice.

Forum suicide notes are tacky.
   156. Shredder Posted: April 04, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4679575)
I was watching TV, and the host snarled "It's just a few games of 162!". But what if it wasn't?
For the umpteenth time, that would be a decision best left to Daniel Murphy and his wife. People prioritize.
Forum suicide notes are tacky.
Seriously. They're basically baited hooks for people to get other posters to tell them how important they are, and don't leave, and we'll be so worse off without them, etc. We just went through this on a fairly prominent golf message board that I'm on. We had a thread that cost us at least three fairly well regarded contributors, and a number of others who "threatened" to leave. None of us are getting paid for this. You don't have to submit a resignation. If you want to stop posting, then just stop posting. You'll feel a lot less stupid a few weeks later when you decide to start posting again. If you make a big announcement, it's really hard to come back without looking like an idiot.
   157. Greg Pope thinks the Cubs are reeking havoc Posted: April 04, 2014 at 05:44 PM (#4679577)
and in response to Kevin no less.

Yeah, no kidding.
   158. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 05:53 PM (#4679581)
If there's one place where it is fairly easy in life to practice your ignoring skills, it is the internet.
   159. Lassus Posted: April 04, 2014 at 05:55 PM (#4679586)
(Although I think I remember sticking his head in about a month ago, then leaving again)

He did, the same type of comment, although I can't remember where.
   160. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 04, 2014 at 06:05 PM (#4679593)
He did, the same type of comment, although I can't remember where.


It was here. Post 69.

Don't know what prompted that return and quick exit, but it wasn't Kevin.
   161. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 04, 2014 at 06:06 PM (#4679595)
Double Post.
   162. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 04, 2014 at 06:09 PM (#4679600)
So my wife is due with our first, a boy, in May. We now have a doula, which, well, I had never really thought we'd have a doula, but my wife wanted one and I'm going ahead with almost everything she wants these days. Anyway, the doula wasn't exactly advocating not getting the boy circumcised but she did give us a few article that were basically against it. My initial feeling was that we were going to get the boy circumcised because I'm circumcised. Not for any religious reasons, but like father like son. What say you all? Is that simple and maybe egotistical reason good?
   163. Moeball Posted: April 04, 2014 at 06:12 PM (#4679601)
We live in a very strange world...

My wife and I never had any kids - then one day we wound up in a situation where a young woman (friend of the family) who had never been that interested in school, was quite pretty and used to taking advantage of that in various ways - finally decided that it was time to grow up and be an adult. So she wanted to go to college after all, but didn't have the funds for it and couldn't pay for it on a minimum-wage income. She was estranged from both of her divorced parents for a variety of reasons, but mainly - you know how when parents get divorced they always try to reassure the child that she was not the cause of the divorce and that both parents still love her? Well, not in this case. Both parents pretty much blamed her for their split and wanted nothing to do with her.

So we took her in and paid for her college education, with the stipulation that her "job" now was to focus on school (something she had never done in her life up to that point), learn stuff and get her degree.

5 years later, she's got her Bachelor's degree, her RN credential, is a supervising nurse at a facility and is making good $$. With the new stabilization in her life she has been able to afford to buy her own place and settle down, something she could never imagine in her previous succession of jobs as a minimum-wage server.

This past December she had her first child. The father of the child was not at the delivery, neither were the mother-to-be's bio-Dad or Mom (all the people that most people would think of as her "family" and most likely to be there for the delivery). But my wife and I were there. We were both there at the birthing room - after 6 hours of fruitless labor, however, the docs decided to do a C-sec. For that, they let my wife in but booted me out. As luck would have it, I still was the first one who got to hold the new bouncing baby boy! It really was an awesome feeling!

I did think it was a bit strange that two people who aren't "officially" related to the mother were there for the delivery whereas the father of the child and the parents of the mother weren't - I guess family is whatever you make of it. You never know for sure how things will turn out.

It's funny - I never had any children, yet now I apparently have a grandson!
   164. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: April 04, 2014 at 06:13 PM (#4679602)
What say you all?


Yikes. That's a bit of a third-rail topic around here.

Some abhor the practice and compare it to female genital mutilation (especially if Tim Tebow performs it).

Others are less crazy.
   165. spike Posted: April 04, 2014 at 06:20 PM (#4679606)
Eish. I struggle with that one too. It's obviously not long term physically harmful and certainly hews to American social norms (not that it's a virtue per se), but still, it's neither natural nor necessary.

//thank god I had a girl (for any number of reasons, but avoiding that dilemma too)
   166. Sunday silence Posted: April 04, 2014 at 06:31 PM (#4679614)
I was at my daughter's birth and that was great. The difference I think is that most medical procedures the patient is sedated and that is not what is happening in child birth at all.

My wife couldnt breast feed so no biggie. She had a medical condition called Milk Duds.
   167. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: April 04, 2014 at 06:33 PM (#4679616)
I think male circumcision is kind of crazy (but not as crazy as female circumcision, which is more like a penectomy). But I've never felt particularly disadvantaged by my own circumcision, so I don't get too exercised about it. It helps that I don't have a child of my own, so I've never needed to have an actual position on it.
   168. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: April 04, 2014 at 06:51 PM (#4679622)
The big question (and I know it's a loaded one) is when paternity/family rights begin to infringe on others.

A few years ago at work, a guy who had less than a year of time in the company (at the time, I was just over ten years) refused to go to an overnight shift because he has a family. So management huddled and decided that since I was childless, I should go to that shift, seniority be damned, so that he could have a better one.

My position then (and now) was that his having a family was a lifestyle choice on his and his wife's part. I don't want to get too deep in the mechanicals here, but there are certain ways that a healthy man and woman can be married without having children; I've done it myself. I should not have been "punished" into a worse shift because of the way he has chosen to live his life.

This has been going on (and is hard to argue without alienating my coworkers or coming off as "anti-family") for years. Before this incident, I was doing an eight-hour shift as my coworker - who shared a job title with me - worked fives so that he could drop off his girls at school and be home when they get back. It was a big secret - we were both on salary at the time. But this went on for awhile - I worked about 100% of the hours for which I was paid, and he worked about 60%. It was for a good reason, but essentially it turned into a 40% raise for him.
   169. Never Give an Inge (Dave) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 07:15 PM (#4679634)
As an aside, companies that grant equal amounts of paternity and maternity leave are batshit crazy.

The typical 12 weeks for the mother is woefully insufficient. 12 weeks for the father is ludicrous over-kill.

If a company is going to allocate 12 weeks/parent in maternity leave it should be 23 weeks for the mother and 1 for the father.


I don't really see why. In some families fathers perform more of the housework and child-rearing responsibilities. In some homes the mother may want to go back to work after 2 weeks but they still want a parent home with the newborn baby.
   170. Kiko Sakata Posted: April 04, 2014 at 07:18 PM (#4679636)
It's obviously not long term physically harmful and certainly hews to American social norms (not that it's a virtue per se)


Does it still? I'm circumcised; neither of my sons are. I don't think one should do unnecessary medical procedures, but I'm not going to go crazy about it on a baseball message board and am unlikely to say anything further on the subject here.
   171. Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 07:30 PM (#4679642)
So my wife is due with our first, a boy, in May. We now have a doula, which, well, I had never really thought we'd have a doula, but my wife wanted one and I'm going ahead with almost everything she wants these days. Anyway, the doula wasn't exactly advocating not getting the boy circumcised but she did give us a few article that were basically against it. My initial feeling was that we were going to get the boy circumcised because I'm circumcised. Not for any religious reasons, but like father like son. What say you all? Is that simple and maybe egotistical reason good?


When my son was born we went ahead with a circumcision not for any religious or cultural reasons except that it seemed that most American men are. And while many women express no preference, I have heard more than a few say they prefer their sexual partners to be circumcised. Then there was the medical evidence suggesting a slight decrease in HIV transmission, and the small decrease in hygiene hassles for kids, and it seemed like a good idea.

That said, when I was in the room while it happened, all I could think was how stupid it was. When your child is born, you're struck by how perfect and natural he is, and then one of the first things someone thinks to do is circumcise him?

I'm not all torn up or regretful about the choice we made, but it's clearly just momentum keeping the whole notion going. As soon as enough people come around, it'll go away.
   172. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 07:49 PM (#4679648)
162. We.had our first child, a boy, a year ago, and.I am.pretty passionate about.this subject, so since you're asking, I will give my thoughts.

I am a Jewish, circimcised male who never would have even considered not circimcising.my son five years ago. My wife felt the same.

However it took about one day for the "intactivists" to fully convert me to the anti circimcision position.

A few things to keep in mind:

-Circumcision is in no meaningful way medically beneficial.
-Circumcision is done entirely for aesthetic reasons.
-Circumcision is incredibly painful for the infant.
-There is considerable evidence that circ has a negative effect on sexual pleasure.o
-The vast majority of men on earth are uncircimcised, including almost all of Europe. Its "normalcy" is purely American and limited.t
to the past fifty years. It is losing popularity here as well. Only 50% of male infants in the us are circ now.

Basically, if it is important to inflict horrible pain on your infant, mutilating his sexual organ against his will, because you think it looks nicer to you, go ahead, but dont be under any illusions about what it is.

My advice is to watch a.corcimcision video on youtube then decide. If you cant get through it, dont circ.
   173. Kurt Posted: April 04, 2014 at 07:59 PM (#4679653)
When our son was born, I asked my friend, who's a doctor and has a son a few years older. He said they circumcised their son, but if they had to do it over again they wouldn't. So that, coupled with my understanding that the medical benefits are small-to-nonexistent, was the tipping point for us.
   174. DL from MN Posted: April 04, 2014 at 08:02 PM (#4679655)
Congratulations Moeball. Many people would say getting grandkids without having to raise kids is the best of both worlds.
   175. PreservedFish Posted: April 04, 2014 at 08:21 PM (#4679661)
My position then (and now) was that his having a family was a lifestyle choice on his and his wife's part. I don't want to get too deep in the mechanicals here, but there are certain ways that a healthy man and woman can be married without having children; I've done it myself. I should not have been "punished" into a worse shift because of the way he has chosen to live his life.


I agree, you're getting screwed.

From the perspective of the company, though, they might rightly see it as the only way to keep two valuable employees in the fold.
   176. base ball chick Posted: April 04, 2014 at 08:25 PM (#4679663)
wj
i breastfed my twins, which was a good chioce because they puked every single formula they were ever given. the doctors at the hospital wanted me to give them this supplement stuff but they always puked it so i said eff it.
the reason i brought up formula is because of the comment that the father is not needed because he is not breastfeeding

as for circumcision
my female friends are Black and let's just say we prefer circumcised. STRONGLY. the doctors put on numbing medicine before they circumcise babies. neither one of the twins even cried. i watched them get circumcised. it wasn't a big deal.
the rest of that stuff sounds like total bullshtt to me. uncircumcised males DO have more urine infections, DO have more HIV and STDs.
so what about all the other males. most of the world has a high mortality rate, lots of AIDS and other diseases, lousy sanitation and nutrition. and they don't bathe or use deororant and they stink like an old gym shoe. what does any of this have to do with circumcision
- you don't want to circumcise your sons, like whatever, it is your choice


i don't know why bob tufts left, but he was furious about something and best i know it wasn't the colonel

ray is gone, and isn't coming back.

i was happy to see DMN, he been gone for 8 months, and i disremember the baseball internet without him and am glad he is back

   177. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 08:48 PM (#4679672)
bbc,
congrats....you mutilated your children without their consent for aesthetic reasons. If they had been girls it would have been a human rights violation.


the only bullshit is the pro circ nonsense you're spewing. Why dont you check which demographic population has the highest hiv rates in this country and cross check that against their circ rates. yeah. The male foreskin is a part of a fully functioning male penis. You think circumcisef penis looks better because of cultural factors. Many men in parts of Africa prefer the look of circumcised women, you know.

How are HIV rates in Western Europe where circ rates are zero?

   178. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 08:57 PM (#4679678)
also, if you think it doesnt hurt all I can say is you must be insane.

Not just during the procedure, but during the healing...

Or do.you think it feels good wearing a urine soaked diaper with a bloody scabby penis?


But hey, it is all worth it if black chicks will like his dick better.

Sorry to be harsh but you are spouting the same old myths that have.kept a pointless barbarity.common for decades.
   179. base ball chick Posted: April 04, 2014 at 09:13 PM (#4679684)
WJ

the HIV rates are even higher in my ethnic group with uncirc. and so is every other STD

i'm not gonna get into this with you because we will only end up saying very rude and unpleasant things and there is no reason for this. you can't change my mind. and i am not going to change yours. or have sex with an uncircumcised man.
   180. BeanoCook Posted: April 04, 2014 at 09:26 PM (#4679691)
Francesca trying to prove New Yorkers are indeed THE "ugly Americans".
   181. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: April 04, 2014 at 09:28 PM (#4679694)
if it is a real life threatening emergency, they don't let anyone in the room and the mother gets put to sleep (not permanently, of course)


Actually, not always. My wife--preeclampsia and pneumonia--delivered our 2 month premature son. I was in the room and they barely had time to get anything into her before they ripped that sucker out of her, rushed him to the NICU and her to a hospital room, where she spent the next several days spiking BPs close to 200 and trying to breathe.
   182. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 09:33 PM (#4679696)
wow, what a loss for the intact.properly functioning men of the world that a pathetic misandrist bigot like you wont sleep with them.

You are just the worst.
   183. GotowarMissAgnes Posted: April 04, 2014 at 09:35 PM (#4679697)
http://www.cnn.com/2012/08/27/health/aap-circumcision-recommendation/

-Circumcision is in no meaningful way medically beneficial.


I don't really have a strong feeling, but this is not the official position of the American Academy of Pediatrics. They used to hold that view but revised it a few years ago.

   184. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 09:42 PM (#4679701)
AAP: cosleelping is harmful, but not genital mutilation!

as a group pediatricians are some of the dumbest ####### people on earth.
   185. base ball chick Posted: April 04, 2014 at 09:46 PM (#4679702)
WJ

rudeness is not going to get you anywhere with me. and i'm sure all the uncircumcised men of the world are going to be able to live with the fact that some woman out of 3+ billion already has a man and is not going to have sex with them too.
   186. base ball chick Posted: April 04, 2014 at 09:51 PM (#4679704)
WJ

you and your wife wanna sleep with all your children in the same bed until they leave and get married like they do in some other country, help yourself, nobody stopping you. i know teenagers still sleeping with their mama. i know teenagers who still suck their thumbs too
   187. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:07 PM (#4679708)
congrats....you mutilated your children without their consent for aesthetic reasons. If they had been girls it would have been a human rights violation.


I love the smell of hysterics in the evening!
   188. dave h Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:10 PM (#4679712)
If your kid is going to have unprotected sex in Africa, he should definitely be circumcised.
   189. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:13 PM (#4679714)
You both make compelling arguments. What about a half circumcision?

Seriously, WJ, thanks for responding!
   190. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:39 PM (#4679719)
also, if you think it doesnt hurt all I can say is you must be insane.

Not just during the procedure, but during the healing...

Or do.you think it feels good wearing a urine soaked diaper with a bloody scabby penis?


Jesus or Moses or whatever, is there a single man or boy over the age of one who remembers all this alleged trauma?** Talk about making a mountain out of a molehill. If you want to leave your boy uncircumcised, go for it, but spare the moral hectoring of those who don't share your sentiments. This isn't female circumcision, where the damage is real and the pain is long lasting.

**OTOH maybe we'll see a "recovered memory" lawsuit brought by some "victimized" boy against his parents. (smile)

(Hey, you never can tell with some of these ambulance chasers.)

   191. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:48 PM (#4679723)
Jolly: is pain unremembered unreal?
   192. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:55 PM (#4679726)
I dunno, how much did you suffer being born?
   193. TVerik, the gum-snappin' hairdresser Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:55 PM (#4679727)
Weekly, you're out of bounds. Go to bed.
   194. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:55 PM (#4679728)
you and your wife wanna sleep with all your children in the same bed until they leave and get married like they do in some other country, help yourself, nobody stopping you. i know teenagers still sleeping with their mama. i know teenagers who still suck their thumbs too

Your ignorance is astounding. You are without a doubt the most provincial, backward, ridiculous poster on this site. Cosleeping is clearly beyond your comprehension, but suffice to say it is not just something they do "in other countries."

Have you ever in your life even considered challenging the orthodoxies you inherited from your culture? Or seeing the world beyond whatever jerkwater corner of Texas you call home?

Do you know the history of the crib? When it was developed and why? Suffice it to say that cosleeping has a much longer track record.of safety and success...as in, like, all of human history.
   195. Monty Predicts a Padres-Mariners WS in 2016 Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:57 PM (#4679730)
If they had been girls it would have been a human rights violation.


Male circumcision and female circumcision are not the same procedure, even though they have the same name.
   196. Pops Freshenmeyer Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:59 PM (#4679732)
Suffice it to say that cosleeping has a much longer track record.of safety and success...as in, like, all of human history.

That's an excellent point. I'm sure historical infant mortality rates support this.
   197. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 10:59 PM (#4679733)
I'm serious...is it really your argument that the suffering of an infant is immaterial because it wont be remembered? Forget about circimcision...that strikes me as a bizarre claim.
   198. Lassus Posted: April 04, 2014 at 11:01 PM (#4679734)
By now I definitely think that any circumcision question is a calculated trolling.
   199. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 11:01 PM (#4679735)
Pops: yes, infant mortality rates have something to do with cosleeping *rolls eyes*

thank god the victorians saves babies from the scourge of sleeping with their mothers that was killing them by the millions.


dumb

   200. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 04, 2014 at 11:04 PM (#4679737)
195. Monty, I realize that. Male circumcision is, for lack of a better term, less bad.

But really it is totally cultural. It is not insane to opppse male genital mutilation, but for some reason (culture) it is treated that way.
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