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Thursday, April 03, 2014

Francesa delivers screeching anti-paternity-leave rant

Francesspool: Asleep at the mic…asleep at the wheel.

Mike Francesa isn’t a big fan of paternity leave.

The WFAN radio host blasted Mets second baseman Daniel Murphy for missing the team’s first two games to be with his wife, Victoria, in Florida for the birth of their son, Noah, who was born Monday.

MLB rules allow a player to take three days away from the team on paternity leave, but Francesa believes they should never take the time.

“You’re a major-league baseball player. You can hire a nurse,’’ he said on his Wednesday show. “Whaddya gonna do, sit there and look at your wife in the hospital bed for two days?”

Murphy will be back with the Mets for Thursday’s series finale against the Nationals at Citi Field, but Francesa was under the impression he was going to be gone for 10 days.

“First of all, the first two days, your wife is in the hospital anyway, you’re there with her,’’ he said. “And the baby’s in the hospital. So you’re not taking the baby home usually till the third day. You think the third day that Daniel Murphy’s going to be in charge of nursing that baby the third day? … That’s my point. He’s not there to take care of the other kids, he’s not there to nurse the baby.”

Repoz Posted: April 03, 2014 at 05:15 PM | 454 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
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   301. Commissioner Bud Black Beltre Hillman Posted: April 06, 2014 at 12:24 PM (#4680283)
[300] Oh it's awful, my contributions included; reading through drunk it made me wonder if BBTF had really survived the shutdown or if this is some alternate universe site.
   302. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 12:43 PM (#4680296)
So what you're saying is that this thread should be cut off?
   303. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 12:44 PM (#4680299)
I gotta chime in to support Lisa here.

Why wouldn't you give a baby formula, or use pampers, or put them in their own crib/bed so you can get a better night's sleep? Being a parent is hard enough, why make it even harder than it needs to be?

Where did this new-agey BS come from that parents have to subsume their entire lives to their children? Do people really think that if their precious has to cry for 20 minutes before she gets a bottle she's not getting in to Harvard?

And breastfeeding a child who's old enough to walk and talk is just weird and disturbing.
   304. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 12:44 PM (#4680301)
So what you're saying is that this thread should be cut off?

Just the top 10% or so.
   305. rr Posted: April 06, 2014 at 12:44 PM (#4680302)
Yeah, it should. We have seen what's under the hood at this point.
   306. Hysterical & Useless Posted: April 06, 2014 at 01:12 PM (#4680322)
There are downsides to both cloth & disposable diapers. Disposables, you're putting a lot of plastic and other synthetic fibres into landfill, which for many people is an issue. Cloth diapers tend to require a lot of bleach to get cleaned properly, and all that chlorine ends up in the water, which again is not a healthy thing. [As with most aspects of parenting, you're dee'd if you do & dee'd if you don't.] We used cloth diapers with our kids, through a diaper service. They delivered once a week, took the dirty ones away to clean. We've never had our own washer/dryer, so we surely weren't going to use the public machines to wash diapers. We did use some disposables too, when we were traveling. Lisa's mom greatly exaggerated the difficulties of cloth. We never had "puddles of pee," nor did the boys spend hour after hour wearing pee-soaked diapers. They get wet, you change 'em. Now, our kids were never in day care; you pretty much can't send a kid to day care in cloth diapers.

We were a pretty child-centric family, because we really really enjoyed hanging out with our kids. We didn't cater to their every whim; they learned quite early that when we were out shopping, the parents decided what got bought, and that whining will get you nowhere. You try to give kids what they need, and sometimes what they need is to learn that they don't need most of the things they think they want.
   307. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:03 PM (#4680355)
... parenting is not a set of rules.
Look, it's quite simple: everyone who does it differently than I do is wrong.
   308. Monty Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:06 PM (#4680361)
Look, it's quite simple: everyone who does it differently than I do is wrong.


I don't have children, so everyone who does it differently than I imagine I would do it is wrong.
   309. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:19 PM (#4680367)
Snapper:

All of those things are and should be issues of.choice based on what works best for a family. What makes you think formula is easier than breastfeeding? My wife would certainly disagree. Formula is expensive and messy. Cleaning bottles.is.a
#####. Breastmilk is free, more or less produced on demand, and far better nutritionally. There are other benefits in terms of bonding, etc.
If a woman takes to it easily, which most, though not all, do, I cant see how bottles and formula are easier. We would pump when my wife needed to travel, but for the most part there were never bottles around our house. No pacifiers either. That worked well for us.

As for cribs vs. cosleeping, again it is a complete misunderstsnding to call it surrendering your own happiness to.your children's needs. Babies very commonly do not sleep well during the night. Cosleeping usually begins because parents are desperate for a better nivgts sleep. We bought a crib. Baby would never sleep in it. Around one month old we gave up and embraced cosleeping and our lives improved immeasurably. My wife could nurse the boy back to sleep without getting up.

As for your breastfeeding comments,.it has to be the first time I have ever seen you say something totally ignorant. One year olds can walk and talk. If you are really disturbed by the nursing of a one year old you have issues, man. Probably Catholicism related.
   310. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4680371)
I have heard "Oh, yes", "ugh, hell no", and "eh, doesn't matter" from female friends over the years in absolutely equal measure.


This is about the DH, I assume.
   311. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:27 PM (#4680376)
306: there are enviro concerns with cloth diapering but I dont know about the bleach thing. We dont use any, just the Eco brand detergent they sell at Whole Foods or Tide Free and Clear. That is all we use, more or less. Water usage is a legit issue...so if you are CDing for environmental reasons it is best to do the loads as big and infrequently as possible.


People shouldn't ignore the practical benefits of these choices. How much per month does a family need to spend on disposable diapers and formula? I honestly have no clue.
   312. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:32 PM (#4680380)
As for your breastfeeding comments,.it has to be the first time I have ever seen you say something totally ignorant. One year olds can walk and talk. If you are really disturbed by the nursing of a one year old you have issues, man. Probably Catholicism related.

No, it's just weird, and has nothing to do with religion. A one year old is fine, they're not really walking and talking, they're at best toddling a babbling a few words. But much beyond that, there's no possible reason.

A three year old has a full set of teeth. A child that has a full set of teeth clearly isn't designed to be breast feeding.

What is the possible purpose of breast feeding a child that is fully equipped to eat and digest solid food? 3 year olds can eat steak for goodness sake. At that age, even a bottle is just a security blanket, they can drink out of cups.

Putting that aside, why would a mother want to be tethered at the hip to a 3 year old? A mother should be able to got to work, or out for the day and not worry about what the sitter is going to feed the child. Parents should be able to take a vacation and leave their toddlers for a week, or at least a long weekend.
   313. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:32 PM (#4680382)
Formula is expensive and messy. Cleaning bottles is a #####.
Not if you own a dishwasher.
   314. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:36 PM (#4680384)
Do people really think that if their precious has to cry for 20 minutes before she gets a bottle she's not getting in to Harvard?

I missed this the first time. Twenty minutes is a long ass time to let a baby cry if you can do something about it. I am not sure any parent would actually do that. Infants don't understand whatever lesson you think you are teaching them. They are just distressed about something and not getting help. I find that a lot more disturbing and weird than something natural and beautiful like a nursing motjer and child.

You know Mary breastfed Jesus, right? Probably well past one year. Scandal!
   315. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:38 PM (#4680387)
I missed this the first time. Twenty minutes is a long ass time to let a baby cry if you can do something about it. I am not sure any parent would actually do that. Infants don't understand whatever lesson you think you are teaching them. They are just distressed about something and not getting help. I find that a lot more disturbing and weird than something natural and beautiful like a nursing motjer and child.

I'm not saying that's the ideal. But, if a baby cries for 20 minutes because the parents are exhausted and take a while to get out of bed, nothing bad is going to happen.

You know Mary breastfed Jesus, right? Probably well past one year. Scandal!

Mary didn't have formula, pasteurized milk or even water that was safe to drink. There's no reason not to embrace technological progress.

   316. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:39 PM (#4680388)
Snapper, how many people breastfeed three year olds in the developed world? Some fraction of one percent?

Generally if a child is nursing after say 18 months it is just occasionally, maybe just to nurse down to sleep.


   317. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:44 PM (#4680393)
snapper: formula is not nutritionally equivalent to human milk. It even says so right on the package.

Women have choices, so of they are choosing to breastfeed it must be working just fine for them. I am sure they appreciate your kind concern for their wellbeing, however.

I know you come from the height of the bottle feeding era...things have changed, and for the better.
   318. A Fatty Cow That Need Two Seats Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:47 PM (#4680396)
BTW, this thread is inexcusably horrible, I just wanted to quote Seinfeld.


This was said before snapper contributed his parenting thoughts.
   319. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:47 PM (#4680397)
Women have choices, so of they are choosing to breastfeed it must be working just fine for them. I am sure they appreciate your kind concern for their wellbeing, however.

I know you come from the height of the bottle feeding era...things have changed, and for the better.


Women who choose not to breastfeed are looked down upon and treated as if they are bad mothers. I find that repugnant.

A whole freaking generation grew up with formula from a very, very young age, and we're all fine.
   320. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:48 PM (#4680399)
I think put briefly I am saying that weaning is something that happens differently for everyone and the best people to figure out how and when are mom and babe.



   321. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:50 PM (#4680400)
I think put briefly I am saying that weaning is something that happens differently for everyone and the best people to figure out how and when are mom and babe.

And I agree with that, within reason.

But, if the when isn't before the kid is heading off to pre-school, something weird is going on.
   322. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:52 PM (#4680403)
This was said before snapper contributed his parenting thoughts.

Yeah, the idea that child rearing should accommodate the parents' needs as much as the children's is just abhorrent.
   323. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 02:55 PM (#4680408)
Women who choose not to breastfeed are looked down upon and treated as if they are bad mothers. I find that repugnant.

I agree. I think it is a sensitive issue. Women are now informed early and often about the benefits of breastfeeding, so if they cant or choose not to there is the potential for guilt or whatever. On top of that you have those pushy well meanin friends, La Leche League, and other kinds of peer pressure, etc.

I think the powerful and broad advocacy that was needed to make breastfeeding common again does now sometimes result in the ff mom feeling marginalized, and that is wrong.

   324. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 03:00 PM (#4680416)
I have lots of time to post right now. My son fell asleep in his carseat on the way back from home depot. He is not a great sleeper so am just sitting here in the car with him letting him get his nap in and listening to the yankee game while farting around on btf with my phone.

And before snapper makes a comment about putting my child's needs before mine, let me just say that this is likely to be the highlight of my weekend. ah....peace, quiet, and baseball.
   325. Publius Publicola Posted: April 06, 2014 at 04:42 PM (#4680483)
Why wouldn't you give a baby formula


Protective maternal antibodies aren't present in baby formula.
   326. Joe Bivens, Minor Genius Posted: April 06, 2014 at 04:51 PM (#4680490)
Not if you own a dishwasher.


Lincoln freed the slaves, bub.
   327. Lassus Posted: April 06, 2014 at 05:01 PM (#4680493)
Women who choose not to breastfeed are looked down upon and treated as if they are bad mothers. I find that repugnant.

I dunno, I think you guys are paying way too much attention to urban douchebags.
   328. GregD Posted: April 06, 2014 at 05:07 PM (#4680500)
I dunno, I think you guys are paying way too much attention to urban ##########.
Yes it is clearly time to pay more attention to rural ##########!

Seriously, I guess in my life I have heard a couple of busybodies say something about women who never breastfeed, but it's far, far less frequent than hearing people say something about other people's music habits (some of which are truly repugnant.) If it's happened to you, then reacting strongly is perfectly sensible. If not, I would take Lassus' advice.

   329. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 05:15 PM (#4680504)
Lincoln freed the slaves, bub.
That’s why god invented illegal aliens.
   330. PreservedFish Posted: April 06, 2014 at 05:43 PM (#4680516)
I'm on Snapper's side here. Formula is something like 99% as good as breast milk. Using formula doesn't make you a monster.

Also, I definitely let my kid cry for more than 20 minutes at a time. It's called "cry it out," it's a very popular approach and it's science-approved, as far as I can tell. The kid learns how to soothe herself. Now she won't cry for 20 minutes unless something is genuinely wrong.

I dunno, I think you guys are paying way too much attention to urban ##########.


Definitely true.
   331. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 06:46 PM (#4680544)
We bought a crib. Baby would never sleep in it. Around one month old we gave up and embraced cosleeping and our lives improved immeasurably.
You waited a whole month? Sheesh, my daughter didn't walk in her first month, so we assumed she never would.
   332. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 07:09 PM (#4680561)
Protective maternal antibodies aren't present in baby formula.

Yet a whole generation of us were raised on formula from 3 months old, and earlier, even from birth, and there was no mass of infant deaths.

Clearly those anti-bodies aren't that important.
   333. GregD Posted: April 06, 2014 at 07:14 PM (#4680566)
Yet a whole generation of us were raised on formula from 3 months old, and earlier, even from birth, and there was no mass of infant deaths.

Clearly those anti-bodies aren't that important.
snapper, you are smarter than this. If something doesn't prevent "mass deaths" then it has no impact? That's absurd.

I think formula is just great, glad it exists, and never judge anybody who uses it exclusively or in conjunction.

But there are measurable--some contested but largely replicable--positive associations with breast feeding, lower rate of SIDS, higher cognitive function, lower rates of infections, lower rates of asthma. Now some of the effects are small, and some may not be causal--there could be correlation not causation. And some are contested. Those are conversations that are possible to have.

But there weren't mass deaths back then, so there can't be any difference is not analysis.
   334. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 07:28 PM (#4680577)
snapper, you are smarter than this. If something doesn't prevent "mass deaths" then it has no impact? That's absurd.

I think formula is just great, glad it exists, and never judge anybody who uses it exclusively or in conjunction.

But there are measurable--some contested but largely replicable--positive associations with breast feeding, lower rate of SIDS, higher cognitive function, lower rates of infections, lower rates of asthma. Now some of the effects are small, and some may not be causal--there could be correlation not causation. And some are contested. Those are conversations that are possible to have.

But there weren't mass deaths back then, so there can't be any difference is not analysis.


We are talking very small potential benefits, from what I've seen. And the causation is very much in doubt. See below.

http://www.cnn.com/2014/02/28/health/time-breastfeeding/

   335. Publius Publicola Posted: April 06, 2014 at 07:39 PM (#4680581)
Formula is something like 99% as good as breast milk. Using formula doesn't make you a monster.


No it isn't. Breastmilk is much better, because of the IgA content. It's OK to occasionally use formula but using it exclusively subjects the infant to infectious disease, which isn't good for the baby, the mother, or anyone who comes in contact with the baby.

C'mon, let's use some common sense here.

Yet a whole generation of us were raised on formula from 3 months old, and earlier, even from birth, and there was no mass of infant deaths.

Clearly those anti-bodies aren't that important.


Oh, so as long as there aren't massive deaths, it's OK. Occasional unnecessary infant deaths are OK, as are permanent and lifelong side effects like paralysis, deafness, asthma, autoimmune disease, mental retardation, etc.

Gotcha.

   336. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 08:09 PM (#4680594)
You waited a whole month? Sheesh, my daughter didn't walk in her first month, so we assumed she never would.

Chortle Chortle. Hardy hard. Hey, asshat, I'm going to explain this slowly for you.

Cosleeping turned out to be a great option for us as a family, given our inability to get our very high needs baby to sleep for even two minutes on his own at night. I have nothing against cribs or any ofamily's sleeping arrangements, I'm only explaining why some choose to bed share and how there is nothing wrong with it.

We feel very good about our choice, just like I'm sure you feel great about your choice to sacrifice the tip of your son's penis to a 3,000 year old Ancient Near Eastern Deity.
   337. base ball chick Posted: April 06, 2014 at 08:21 PM (#4680601)
297. Avoid running at all times.-S. Paige Posted: April 06, 2014 at 09:03 AM (#4680216)


Have you ever hooked up with an African-American woman?** What did she think?

*bonus point if she was from Houston
*double bonus points if she hated the DH


well, the abomination known as the DH was not yet alive when mah mama was still single
am not sure ah could ever go for a DH luvvvvver, but THAT part of him i could change a leeeeeeetle more easily than the others. (then again, even a DH luvvvver would be better than a guy who sez - like, what is a DH? does he run with the football?)
not sure it would be less painless for some

what about TRIPLE bonus points if she loves barry lamar so much she names her DOG after him?
   338. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 08:25 PM (#4680606)

We are talking very small potential benefits


The health benefits of breast milk are far more demonstrable than the health benefits of circumcision, which you are happy to tout.

Look, I don't recall anyone in this thread saying formula would kill a baby or that using formula makes someone a bad mother. I think it is good for our society as a whole to encourage and support breastfeeding as the optimal choice for infant health, but it's not some kind of absolute. I do plenty of things that are less than optimal for my son...I just gave him three spoonfuls of mint oreo ice cream, for instance. I fully support parental choice and recognize that formula is a healthy alternative to breastmilk that does have certain lifestyle advantages for some. But let's be honest: if it were as good as breastmilk, it wouldn't clearly say that it is NOT as good on the darn formula packaging itself.

As far as stigma, breastfeeders are still far more likely to be stigmatized than bottle feeders, especially in certain socioeconomic and cultural groups...particularly in public settings. Have you ever seen a restaurant worker ask a bottle feeding parent to please feed their baby in the ladies room?
   339. base ball chick Posted: April 06, 2014 at 08:29 PM (#4680607)
hysterical

i was thinkin bout what you said about the delivery room the other day. and got reminded of one of my gf babydaddy, who fainted in the delivery room when he saw the head come out and broke his nose when he fell.....

also, my brothers were born in the 70s and cloth diapers were not real too secure, i guess. and those rubber/plastic covers leaked. so mah mama sez. and that is why mothers fed babies baby food real early on before the nighttime bed time because otherwise they would pee so much during the night.

i just don't know because i don't remember wearing diapers, of course. but mama only really disremembers things having to do with baseball, so that is probably what happened with the diapers
   340. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 08:46 PM (#4680615)
The health benefits of breast milk are far more demonstrable than the health benefits of circumcision, which you are happy to tout.

I've never said a word about it, pro or con.

Look, I don't recall anyone in this thread saying formula would kill a baby or that using formula makes someone a bad mother. I think it is good for our society as a whole to encourage and support breastfeeding as the optimal choice for infant health, but it's not some kind of absolute. I do plenty of things that are less than optimal for my son...I just gave him three spoonfuls of mint oreo ice cream, for instance. I fully support parental choice and recognize that formula is a healthy alternative to breastmilk that does have certain lifestyle advantages for some. But let's be honest: if it were as good as breastmilk, it wouldn't clearly say that it is NOT as good on the darn formula packaging itself.

It's 98 or 99% as good. Again, a whole generation did just fine. There's zero reason for a mother to inconvenience herself in any way to breastfeed. That disclaimer is there purely due to political pressure.

As far as stigma, breastfeeders are still far more likely to be stigmatized than bottle feeders, especially in certain socioeconomic and cultural groups...particularly in public settings. Have you ever seen a restaurant worker ask a bottle feeding parent to please feed their baby in the ladies room?

I've never seen either. But, I don't really understand taking infants to restaurants at all, except for the most casual (e.g. McDonald's, Chucky Cheese, etc.).
   341. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 08:48 PM (#4680617)
It's called "cry it out," it's a very popular approach and it's science-approved, as far as I can tell. The kid learns how to soothe herself. Now she won't cry for 20 minutes unless something is genuinely wrong.

CIO is pretty dang controversial. It was popular in the past, far less so today. There is scientific evidence, for instance, that excessive crying is harmful. It's not a settled matter but it is far less common now than it used to be, in large part because of the growth of attachment parenting. Some pediatricians completely reject the idea of self soothing. I think this is one of those issues where you have to just do what you feel.
   342. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 08:50 PM (#4680622)

I've never said a word about it, pro or con.


Right, you didn't. My mistake.
   343. base ball chick Posted: April 06, 2014 at 09:01 PM (#4680630)
snapper

really small babies shuld not be crying for 20 minutes straight. if they are then something is wrong or they are terrified because you have not responded to them. very few babies can not be taught to sleep in a bassinet. i had one foster baby had to be swaddled tight and held 24/7, but that baby's brain was messed. i had a few more who had bad spitups and needed to sleep upright in a carseat to be comfortable, but really, it just needs patience.

when they get older, there is sometimes a tantrum thing goin on and you have to be parent enough to know that and tell them too bad, and they gotta go to sleep, it's that time.

as for breastfeeding, must be a different ethnic group than mine that gets shtt for not breastfeeding. more grrrls breastfeed these days than they did when our twins were born almost 12 years ago, but almost nobody does it more than 2 months - you have to go back to work anyhow. i have formula fed foster babies and can tell you that formula feeding is most positively messier, the spitup smells horrible, so do the diapers. it is easier in public. period. and even when you have WIC, formula is expensive because they never give you enough.

i know that some females breastfeed for a long LONG time. i have owned mama Dogz and watched how they weaned puppies, and being somewhat of a mama Dog mah own self, did just like they did. puppies don't never wean themselves, mama Dogz always decide when and the puppies always complain. and mah kids complained, too - but knowing them, i would bet they would want to be breastfeeding for years and that was NOT happening. i personally think it is gross to breastfeed your infants once they are toddlers, but hey, the Experts say it is fine to breastfeed forever and there is no age it is not OK, so that is just my personal opinion. also, if you are going to do it in public, you need to cover up completely and some people don't and that, in my opinion, is offensive. i don't want to see some woman's boob any more than i want to see some man whip it out and pee into a bottle. they are natural body parts and natural body functions, but i don't want to have to see it.

there is also NO reason you can't get up at night to breastfeed your babies. once they hit about 2 months, they only wake up to feed twice at night and 4 weeks or so later, they go from like 10 to 5 and 6-8 weeks later, they sleep soundly for at least 10 hours. never had any problem at all, never made them cry with hunger. also, sometimes babies wake up for all kinds of reasons besides needing food. you don't have to give them food if they are not hungry or it is not time to eat. sometimes, they want to be changed, or patted or re-positioned, or whatever, or they are sick or their nose is stopped up or something. didn't want to teach mah kids that the only to comfort them self is to eat.

have had a few older foster babies who had to be taught to not get up at night and want food, play time, etc. but it didn't take real long to teach them to eat during the day, instead of at night.
   344. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 09:11 PM (#4680632)
" also, if you are going to do it in public, you need to cover up completely and some people don't and that, in my opinion, is offensive. i don't want to see some woman's boob any more than i want to see some man whip it out and pee into a bottle. they are natural body parts and natural body functions, but i don't want to have to see it."

You know what: too ####### bad. If it bothers you, dont look. It is not any woman's responsibility to avoid offending bbc while feeding her baby.
   345. base ball chick Posted: April 06, 2014 at 09:12 PM (#4680633)
snapper

more babies have spitup/diarrhea/gas problems with formula than they do with breastfeeding. this is not even arguable. have talked to a lot of grrrls who have said stuff like - baby never had ANY problems until i changed from breastfeeding to formula.

some people never have no problems with formula, but a whole lot sure do. human beings were not genetically made to grow up on cow milk + corn syrup or soy bean juice + corn syrup. which is what formula is. maybe all that formula made out of genetically modified crap is why so many people are obese and maybe all those chemicals and genetically modified stuff got something to do with the autism rate going up every year because it sure as heck ain't vaccines
   346. base ball chick Posted: April 06, 2014 at 09:14 PM (#4680634)
WJ

they are called private parts for a reason. i am not the only one doesn't want to see it.

and yes i know all about the butt crack thing and the fat gut/midriff thing and the walmart getup thing and that is not ok neither
   347. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 06, 2014 at 09:18 PM (#4680636)
BBC....babies eating is not.offensive. What an odd perspective.
   348. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 09:44 PM (#4680643)
My wife threw out our changing pad and removed other evidence of a changing table this past week, and during a tantrum about something else, the 2 1/2 year old noticed this and it escalated the meltdown. I wish I had my camera rolling.
   349. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 09:47 PM (#4680645)
really small babies shuld not be crying for 20 minutes straight. if they are then something is wrong or they are terrified because you have not responded to them.

Never said they should. Just saying that if they do, no permanent damage is going to happen.

more babies have spitup/diarrhea/gas problems with formula than they do with breastfeeding. this is not even arguable.

Sure, but again, nothing catastrophic.
   350. base ball chick Posted: April 06, 2014 at 10:00 PM (#4680649)
snapper

it is NOT good to not respond at all to small babies for 20 minutes when they are crying. you teach them that their parent/parents are indifferent to their needs and fears. that is not a good thing. not at all. you do NOT want to teach your infant that you can't be relied on. and that IS permanent damage. you think because someone comtinues to breathe and doesn't have a disease or die, that nothing else is any sort of big deal. no. wrong.
and this is QUITE different than ignoring tantrums.

you think that the only damage that can be done is serious disease or death. lifelong intestins or breathing difficulties or allergies IS not no big deal.

you need to deal with the fact that there is this large area of "not a good thing" that is in between perfection and death.

maybe the fact that you have had all those medical problems and operations in your 30s has something to do with what you were fed as an infant (and no i am not blaming your mama seeing as how women of her generation were instructed by some
MAN
to feed babies formula as it was New and Improved and Modern
   351. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 06, 2014 at 11:03 PM (#4680671)
snapper

it is NOT good to not respond at all to small babies for 20 minutes when they are crying. you teach them that their parent/parents are indifferent to their needs and fears. that is not a good thing. not at all. you do NOT want to teach your infant that you can't be relied on. and that IS permanent damage. you think because someone comtinues to breathe and doesn't have a disease or die, that nothing else is any sort of big deal. no. wrong.
and this is QUITE different than ignoring tantrums.

you think that the only damage that can be done is serious disease or death. lifelong intestins or breathing difficulties or allergies IS not no big deal.

you need to deal with the fact that there is this large area of "not a good thing" that is in between perfection and death.

maybe the fact that you have had all those medical problems and operations in your 30s has something to do with what you were fed as an infant (and no i am not blaming your mama seeing as how women of her generation were instructed by some


One incident isn't going to scar an infant for life, anymore than we're scarred for life when our mothers "abandon us" on the first day of kindergarten. I'm not advocating a pattern of neglect, I'm saying that parents shouldn't be obsessed that babies are so, so fragile.

As to allergies and intestinal problem, waaaaay more kids have them than in my "neglected" generation. There was literally not one kid with dangerous nut allergies, or serious asthma in my schools growing up. There was one kid who was probably autistic to some extent.

Now those things seem to be present in multiple students in every school single school, if not every classroom.

I highly doubt that my body's propensity to produce scar tissue has anything to do with formula. If anything I'd be better off with a weaker immune system. My body is too good at responding to wounds.
   352. Lassus Posted: April 06, 2014 at 11:09 PM (#4680675)
I think that one of the things that many don't want to agree with is that there might be more than one way to healthily raise a child, both physically and emotionally.


There was literally not one kid with dangerous nut allergies, or serious asthma in my schools growing up.

Anecdotal, not factual. We had a kid in my elementary school head straight to the hospital one day for a nut allergy. I knew kids with inhalers.


There was one kid who was probably autistic to some extent.

Yes, and no one you knew was gay, either. That people weren't aware doesn't mean it didn't exist. (And I do think autism is over-diagnosed now, but that doesn't change under-diagnosis in the past.
   353. PreservedFish Posted: April 06, 2014 at 11:12 PM (#4680677)
I enjoyed the book Bringing Up Bebe, about French parenting techniques. In France they give the kids formula immediately, they Cry It Out extremely early (and if a 4 month old is not sleeping through the night it is assumed that the parent is at fault), the moms feel social pressure to lose the weight very fast... Whole lot of differences that supposedly result in better behaved kids. The culture basically rejects the (affluent urban) American idea that moms should subsume their lives to those of their children & the idea that babies need to be catered to.
   354. PreservedFish Posted: April 06, 2014 at 11:13 PM (#4680678)
On the other hand, I basically agree with a Slate column I read a couple years ago which stated the following: if you care enough about your kids to debate what your parenting philosophy ought to be, the kids will probably turn out fine.
   355. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 06, 2014 at 11:26 PM (#4680680)
Anecdotal, not factual. We had a kid in my elementary school head straight to the hospital one day for a nut allergy. I knew kids with inhalers.

No, Snapper's comment was quite likely factual. Is there any serious dispute that allergies have risen dramatically in the last two decades?
   356. GregD Posted: April 06, 2014 at 11:26 PM (#4680681)
I enjoyed the book Bringing Up Bebe, about French parenting techniques. In France they give the kids formula immediately, they Cry It Out extremely early (and if a 4 month old is not sleeping through the night it is assumed that the parent is at fault), the moms feel social pressure to lose the weight very fast... Whole lot of differences that supposedly result in better behaved kids. The culture basically rejects the (affluent urban) American idea that moms should subsume their lives to those of their children & the idea that babies need to be catered to.
The pushback against the book has been very intense. Akin to the Why Frechwomen Don't Get Fat phenomenon that asserted a bunch of cultural explanations but "forgot" to include the obvious one: Frenchwomen smoke a lot more than American women. The pushback--which could be fair or unfair--has focused on the fact that French people use much more corporal punishment than American parents (and corporal punishment is effective in the short term for silencing children), that French schools emphasize an amazing amount of rotework and conformity so kids receive consistent messages of shut up and sit down. The consequences also seem worth assessing: what I've read suggested the French are far less creative and far less effective problem-solvers than Americans (though far better at rote work) and that French people--as adults--report far worse relations with their parents in the aggregate than U.S. people do.

But, having sat through horrific behavior of kids (inc my own), there are moments when I would have traded a lifetime of distance with a dull-minded adult child for a few minutes of peace! But I don't think there's anything gained by pretending their isn't a tradeoff.

The other big critique is that extremely high-status French parents--what that book was based on--have good reason not to be anxious about their kids. They have much, much more effectively gained the system since access to elite schools and--even more!--access to the huge reservoir of government-controlled luxury apartments in Paris are controlled by government agencies that are almost entirely captured by this small self-perpetuating elite. So why should they worry? The US is less equal on the whole than France, but French elites have more successfully captured government goodies, which are crucial in sustaining their vision of their children's success.
   357. base ball chick Posted: April 06, 2014 at 11:44 PM (#4680688)
snapper

lots of autistics were actually not called that - a lot were just "retards" (or even ruder labels.) have heard plenty of stories from people in my parents generation about the classrooms for the bad, stupid, weird, mental kids - at least in elem school, before they vanished. back then, a lot of them were kept home, had accidents, died, went to state mental schools for the hopelessly retarded or mental.

not much you could do with a kid who couldn't talk, ran off all the time, wouldn't eat what food there was...

and also, back then, kids were so sick from allergies and asthmas, they dropped out, flunked out, DIED. it didn't not exist 25-35 years ago. or before that. and a lot of the people who were probably asthmatic were labeled as "consumtion" or TB, or they died from weak lungs/pneumonias or something like that where they couldn't breathe and coughed them self to death.
   358. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:00 AM (#4680696)
I enjoyed the book Bringing Up Bebe,


I enjoyed the book as well. (and am aware of the arrows thrown as explained in 356.)

'The Happiest Baby on the Block' as well (Dr. Harvey Karp).

Again, not so much to seek affirmation in my own methods, but just for the perspective and frankly (in Karp's book) the insight into other culture's methods.
   359. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:27 AM (#4680709)
Snapper: where are you getting this 98% number? Totally unscientific.
You are basically beating a straw man. Formula is suboptimal and even you do not dispute that. Formula is fine but it is not the real thing. Formula is also expensive and a pita. A WIC hating.conservative like you should be all about nursing.


Also, Bringing up Bebe was pure nonsense. It was basically "To Train Up A Child" for secular urban readers. Yes, kids are "well behaved" when they are terrified of you.
   360. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 07, 2014 at 08:51 AM (#4680771)
Back from my trip.

Parental leave is important for both spouses and should be an option for both (including professional athletes.

I was present for both boys birth. I am different from most folks, it was not the most special thing ever for me, kind of meh and boring actually, and both times ended in c-section. But whatever, I was there to support the spouse. And I took paternity leave, especially after #2, so I could take care of #1.

Co-sleeping. It is fine. We did some. Between that and breastfeeding I got plenty of sleep. Breastfeeding is better for the child and got me out of dealing with it. Win, win!

Circumcision. I am, the boys are not. We did some research and decided against it. But for males it is a legit option either way.

Cry it out is nuts. When the baby is unhappy you deal with it. You can't spoil a newborn. Thinking you can is dumb. As they get older, you have to change it up. Shocking, but your parenting must change as the child changes. But for newborns and very young babies you should see to their needs ASAP.
   361. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 10:26 AM (#4680827)
BBC....babies eating is not.offensive. What an odd perspective.
Misread that as "eating babies is not offensive."
   362. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 10:28 AM (#4680829)
You are basically beating a straw man. Formula is suboptimal and even you do not dispute that. Formula is fine but it is not the real thing. Formula is also expensive and a pita. A WIC hating conservative like you should be all about nursing.
If people want to talk about the insignificant health benefits of breastfeeding, or about the extra costs of formula, that's one thing. But what's with all these "formula is a pita" (in multiple forms) arguments that keeps being raised here? Formula was in no sense a "pita." It's easy and convenient (though less so than breastfeeding... for the father).
   363. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 10:31 AM (#4680834)
I have to disagree with Francesca - eating babies IS offensive. Its a child, not an entree!
   364. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 10:45 AM (#4680852)
Misread that as "eating babies is not offensive."


As did I, though at least in my case I was still traumatized from taking my youngest female cat to the spay/neuter clinic.
   365. The Good Face Posted: April 07, 2014 at 11:20 AM (#4680883)
If people want to talk about the insignificant health benefits of breastfeeding, or about the extra costs of formula, that's one thing. But what's with all these "formula is a pita" (in multiple forms) arguments that keeps being raised here? Formula was in no sense a "pita." It's easy and convenient (though less so than breastfeeding... for the father).


My wife breastfed our kids, but on the rare occasions we had to use formula, I found it to be a moderate pain in the ass dealing with cleaning/sterilizing the various bottles, nipples, lids, etc. Not a huge deal, but infants require so much attention... anything that cuts down on unnecessary labor was a no brainer for us.

Cry it out is nuts. When the baby is unhappy you deal with it. You can't spoil a newborn. Thinking you can is dumb. As they get older, you have to change it up. Shocking, but your parenting must change as the child changes. But for newborns and very young babies you should see to their needs ASAP.


Pretty much. Newborns literally lack the cognitive capacity to get "spoiled". If they're crying, it means one of their needs is not being met or they're in pain. Sometimes (colicky babies) there's nothing you can really do for them, but you won't know that until you pick em up and make sure all their other needs are being addressed.

   366. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 11:43 AM (#4680911)
My wife breastfed our kids, but on the rare occasions we had to use formula, I found it to be a moderate pain in the ass dealing with cleaning/sterilizing the various bottles, nipples, lids, etc. Not a huge deal, but infants require so much attention... anything that cuts down on unnecessary labor was a no brainer for us.
Again, if you have a dishwasher, it's no effort at all. (Even if you don't, it's really just a bit of extra dishwashing that you'd ordinarily do anyway. And every so often boil some water in a pot on the stove for the nipples.)

In exchange, mother isn't tethered to child. Either parent can feed the child -- and the child can feed him/herself w/in six months. (I mean, you still have to prepare the bottle, but the kid can hold it.) You can do it anywhere, any time. You don't have issues with the kid being unable to do it -- you can switch to an easier nipple if necessary. Plus, it's not yicky.
   367. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4680937)
Breastfeeding is yicky? You're trolling right?
   368. tshipman Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:05 PM (#4680938)
Man, some people in this thread have a lot of energy invested in their childrearing philosophy. I mean, on the one hand, I guess that's a good thing, but then on the other hand, there's a lot of shrillness.
   369. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:16 PM (#4680958)
Man, some people in this thread have a lot of energy invested in their childrearing philosophy. I mean, on the one hand, I guess that's a good thing, but then on the other hand, there's a lot of shrillness.

Sayre's Law.
   370. base ball chick Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:19 PM (#4680962)
about bringing up bebe -

am not sure why the french are insisting on giving a baby formula and NOT breastfeeding. what is WRONG with breastfeeding? too inconvenient or something? or do they seriously think a brand new baby should be fed only 4 times a day and cry itself sick the rest of the time.

am not sure why so many mothers here in america have all this trouble getting babies to sleep through the night

am not sure how i or any mother is supposed to feel comfortable/not care if her baby is screaming in pain or hungre or discomfort and is just supposed to shrug and say - that is its problem and i will do what i want to and deal with it if and when i happen to get around to it. or well, it is just supposed to live being hungry/dirty/afraid - that is ITS problem.

am down with the french thing about not having to get fat if you're preggo. am not understanding why american obs are obsessed with making sure that pregnant women become obese. why you need to put on 10 - 30 pounds of FAT with every single pregnancy, even if you have not lost the 30 lbs of fat you put on with the LAST pregnancy, i do not get. what on earth do you NEED all that fat for? it is not exactly like food is a hard thing to find. you eat 2 fast food meals you already got your day's calories and then some. i can understand why that would have been something important for poor farming people/urban people before there was a lot of food, but modern women? ESPECIALLY rich modern women? when i was pregnant with twins, the doctors wanted me to gain FIFTY pounds which is 1 1/2 times my normal weight. i heard every ****ing WEEK how the kidss were gonna be AFU because i was not getting FAT. i didn't believe one ****ing word of that because my mama gained about 20 lbs MAX with each one of her 6 pregnancies and she was back at normal weight and size 3 weeks later. why do you have to starve your self for months after delivery or be obese/ be HOW many pounds fatter than you were before you got pregnant??? how do they think that all that FAT is gonna disappear? you don't need real too much extra calories to make breast milk, and what if you are gonna formula feed?

NONE of my relatives/gf who got preggo after age 20/22 who put on all that FAT ever got back to pre pregnancy weight. most grrls can not afford expensive personal trainers and chefs and plastic surgeons like the movie stars get

am down with the french thing about not putting food in a baby/child's mouth every time the mouth is open. am also down with not giving junk food/snacks/juice to a baby/toddler/kid to shut it up. my Husband had it done to him, and that is what they do in his family and they are ALL fat. if kids don't get a diet of pretty much nothing but junk, then they will eat food. because there is nothing else and they are not going on no hunger strike.



   371. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:21 PM (#4680963)
Man, some people in this thread have a lot of energy invested in their childrearing philosophy.


In the history of the world no child has ever been raised correctly. And most of them work out pretty well. Then again humans are really our most valuable asset and even small improvements in how well the average baby is reared can have huge positive impact.

Of course deciding what is an improvement and what isn't is the trick. Change is not always positive, but they did not always do things the right way back in the day either.
   372. Gaelan Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4680965)
The major benefit of formula is that it allows the Dad a more active role in childrearing. That has a huge benefits down the road. I know of a number of moms who because they were breastfeeding effectively shunted the Dad out of all the main duties when the child was a baby. Then, they expect the Dad later to know how to do everything (and to want to) but they don't because they never learned how (or to like it).

So my rule #1 of parenting is this: start as you mean to go on. If you want both parents to have equal responsibility this has to begin as soon as possible. Likewise, if you expect both parents to have equal responsibility they have to have equal rights/power. If the mother makes every single decision she shouldn't complain when the dad isn't gracious about doing what he is told.

The second most important thing to know is that "crying it out" is the greatest thing ever. You can teach your child to sleep through the night in one night (slight exaggeration, it might take two).* 100% guaranteed. Teaching your child to sleep is as much your responsibility as teaching them to read. It works. Its easy. If you have any troubles at all, do it and do it now. Works cannot describe how easy it is and how effective it is. People who co-sleep are digging their own grave. People who feed their children in the middle of the night after a certain age get what they deserve. The baby isn't hungry. You're just making them an addict.

*Read up on how to do it. Look up the baby whisperer. Don't just put them to bed and walk away. I'd start around three or four months.
   373. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:24 PM (#4680968)
Breastfeeding is yicky? You're trolling right?
It's a technical term.
   374. base ball chick Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:25 PM (#4680969)
367. Weekly Journalist_ Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:04 PM (#4680937)
Breastfeeding is yicky? You're trolling right?


- no, he means that FORMULA is not yicky, like i think it is
   375. A big pile of nonsense (gef the talking mongoose) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:26 PM (#4680970)
People who co-sleep are digging their own grave.


Followed by co-burial?
   376. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:31 PM (#4680974)
Man, some people in this thread have a lot of energy invested in their childrearing philosophy.


And some of them don't even have kids. Hey, let's go ask the celebrates about appropriate sex practices next!
   377. The Good Face Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:32 PM (#4680977)
Again, if you have a dishwasher, it's no effort at all. (Even if you don't, it's really just a bit of extra dishwashing that you'd ordinarily do anyway. And every so often boil some water in a pot on the stove for the nipples.)


It's just a few more things that need to be done that don't need to be done if you're breastfeeding. Like I said, not a huge deal, but I did notice the extra work. Maybe I'd have gotten used to it if we did it every day, but it was nice not to have to.

In exchange, mother isn't tethered to child. Either parent can feed the child -- and the child can feed him/herself w/in six months. (I mean, you still have to prepare the bottle, but the kid can hold it.) You can do it anywhere, any time. You don't have issues with the kid being unable to do it -- you can switch to an easier nipple if necessary. Plus, it's not yicky.


Can do that with breastfeeding too if you like. Also, breastfeeding is yicky? You're swabbing poo out of a baby's nether regions for a couple of years but breastfeeding is a bridge too far?
   378. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:35 PM (#4680981)
Can do that with breastfeeding too if you like. Also, breastfeeding is yicky? You're swabbing poo out of a baby's nether regions for a couple of years but breastfeeding is a bridge too far?

Can't they both be icky?
   379. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:48 PM (#4681002)
The second most important thing to know is that "crying it out" is the greatest thing ever. You can teach your child to sleep through the night in one night (slight exaggeration, it might take two).* 100% guaranteed. Teaching your child to sleep is as much your responsibility as teaching them to read. It works. Its easy. If you have any troubles at all, do it and do it now. Works cannot describe how easy it is and how effective it is. People who co-sleep are digging their own grave. People who feed their children in the middle of the night after a certain age get what they deserve. The baby isn't hungry. You're just making them an addict.


I even have close friends that finally conceded recently to me 'Dammit, you were right' about being ruthless in instituting a sleeping protocol.
There's no denying there are a handful of nights where your resolve is tested mightily but the dividends are tremendous, for both parent and child.
   380. CrosbyBird Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:52 PM (#4681005)
I don't understand why people have any serious problem with public breastfeeding. I suppose it makes me slightly uncomfortable to talk to a nursing woman because I feel slightly awkward around any exposed breast that I'm not supposed to stare at. I don't think it's any less aesthetically pleasant than a bottle.
   381. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:55 PM (#4681010)
I don't understand why people have any serious problem with public breastfeeding.
...asked...
I suppose it makes me slightly uncomfortable to talk to a nursing woman because I feel slightly awkward around any exposed breast that I'm not supposed to stare at.
...and answered.
   382. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:57 PM (#4681013)
I don't understand why people have any serious problem with public breastfeeding. I suppose it makes me slightly uncomfortable to talk to a nursing woman because I feel slightly awkward around any exposed breast that I'm not supposed to stare at. I don't think it's any less aesthetically pleasant than a bottle.

I don't think most people do have a problem if it's done discreetly. If there's an exposed breast, it's not discreet, and it's inappropriate. We don't let guys take off their shirts in restaurants either.
   383. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:57 PM (#4681015)
I even have close friends that finally conceded recently to me 'Dammit, you were right' about being ruthless in instituting a sleeping protocol.
There's no denying there are a handful of nights where your resolve is tested mightily but the dividends are tremendous, for both parent and child.


I think there is some shifting things here. You absolutely need to train your child to be able to sleep. Routine is your friend. But - and I can't stress this enough - your strategy changes throughout the child's life.

What is OK for a two year old is not for a newborn. Boundaries and structure are critical throughout their life, but expectations and understanding about what is going on, what is OK and expected and what is not change hugely as the child grows up.

I think this is the number one issue many parents have. The little horror shows are changing at near light speed. You have to understand that and change your parenting expectations and tactics, while keeping really firm strategies, goals and boundaries. it is really hard. parenting is hard, and really rewarding, and their is no one size fits all.

Anyone who says otherwise is a damn liar.
   384. CrosbyBird Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:58 PM (#4681016)
There's no denying there are a handful of nights where your resolve is tested mightily but the dividends are tremendous, for both parent and child.

Doesn't cry it out start with something like five-minute intervals? I've never heard of someone seriously suggesting that a baby be allowed to scream for hours.
   385. CrosbyBird Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:03 PM (#4681025)
I don't think most people do have a problem if it's done discreetly. If there's an exposed breast, it's not discreet, and it's inappropriate. We don't let guys take off their shirts in restaurants either.

Honestly, I think "no shirt" policies are pretty unnecessary in general. Perhaps in a fancy restaurant, but I don't see much of a reason to force someone to wear a shirt to order a Big Mac or slice of pizza over a counter. It's not a health issue.

Although if I am to be honest, I think our attitudes toward public nudity are a little unhealthy. I'm not a nudist (too self-conscious) but I think they've got the right ideas.
   386. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:07 PM (#4681029)
Although if I am to be honest, I think our attitudes toward public nudity are a little unhealthy.


Agreed. Americans are mostly dumb about nudity. Get over it already. Seeing a breast or a penis is not a big deal. Sheesh.
   387. Gaelan Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:09 PM (#4681032)


I think there is some shifting things here. You absolutely need to train your child to be able to sleep. Routine is your friend. But - and I can't stress this enough - your strategy changes throughout the child's life.

What is OK for a two year old is not for a newborn. Boundaries and structure are critical throughout their life, but expectations and understanding about what is going on, what is OK and expected and what is not change hugely as the child grows up.

I think this is the number one issue many parents have. The little horror shows are changing at near light speed. You have to understand that and change your parenting expectations and tactics, while keeping really firm strategies, goals and boundaries. it is really hard. parenting is hard, and really rewarding, and their is no one size fits all.

Anyone who says otherwise is a damn liar.


Yeah, this is all true. However, it sure helps to have principles to fall back on.

For instance, we cried it out with my firstborn around four or five months. He had been sleeping through the night at three months with a soother but then he started spitting it out in his sleep and waking up. We'd get up, put it back in his mouth, and bang to sleep. However, he started waking up more and more until we finally decided to get rid of the soother and cry it out. 45 minutes later (using the techniques not just walking away) he was sleeping and that was it. Problem solved.

So I became a convert but as he got older new problems arose. Around two or three he used to be very hard to put to bed so that if I left his room he'd follow me, or cry out for me to come back. So I slowly got sucked in to waiting outside his room for him to go to sleep and then tiptoeing away. Now this is obviously crazy but you get sucked in tiny piece by tiny piece.

Finally, I remembered the core principle of crying it out. It is ok to say no. So I told him I was going downstairs and that he'd have to go sleep without me. It was the exact same dynamic as when he was five months old played out in a different context. It turned out the same way too.

So you need two things. You need principles you believe in and that work. But you also need the practical wisdom to apply them to changing circumstances.
   388. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:19 PM (#4681052)
Boundaries and structure are critical throughout their life, but expectations and understanding about what is going on, what is OK and expected and what is not change hugely as the child grows up


Yes, what has struck me about raising kids is how strongly they cling to their internal sense of justice in the world. You must have a reason for your decisions. Even one that you think they cannot comprehend is better than "because I said so."

parenting is hard, and really rewarding, and their is no one size fits all.


Amen. That's why comparing kids on Facebook is so stupid. First, because you don't get the full picture, its just a snapshot in time when the kid was probably at their best (no one takes pictures of their kids throwing a tantrum), and second, everyone's kid is different, what works with one, won't work with another. It turns out kids, like human beings, are very different from one another!
   389. Lassus Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:22 PM (#4681054)
...asked...
...and answered.


Does the New Libertarian Dictionary/Thesaurus equate "serious problem" with "slightly uncomfortable"?
   390. if nature called, ladodger34 would listen Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:35 PM (#4681078)
The major benefit of formula is that it allows the Dad a more active role in childrearing. That has a huge benefits down the road. I know of a number of moms who because they were breastfeeding effectively shunted the Dad out of all the main duties when the child was a baby. Then, they expect the Dad later to know how to do everything (and to want to) but they don't because they never learned how (or to like it).


My wife had a heck of a time breastfeeding with our boys. With our oldest, the pediatrician actually told us we had to start supplementing with him to get his weight up. Besides, when you have a wife that is exhausted beyond belief and everyone suffers, it's time to make some sort of change. After a couple of weeks, my wife and I fell into a good groove. I was taking a summer college algebra class at a jc for my BA (my oldest was born in June) so at about 8 or so, I would start doing my homework (6 week classes suck) and my wife would pass out. By around 11 or so, I would be done with the homework and it would be just about the perfect time for a feeding so I would give him a formula bottle. He would get up again around 2 or so, but by that time, my wife had about 6 or hours of straight sleep and it worked out well.

Things got way easier with #2 and #3. My middle kiddo was an awesome sleeper and just about the best baby ever until he decided that he needed to walk and talk at about 9 mos. His only problem was when he had teething issues that he wouldn't sleep with us in bed and I spent a few nights sleeping in a recliner with him. #3 was kind of a surprise * and we have done things a little differently with her.

* For the most part, we had no problems having #1 & #2. Once we started trying, it more or less happened. We followed the same pattern for the 3rd kid, but my wife had a "passed pregnancy" (a nice term for a miscarriage before it's actually a miscarriage) and after that, it damn near seemed like she stopped ovulating. Eventually, we just said hell with it (it caused fights, etc) and we had decided to be grateful with our 2 boys and that a family of 4 wasn't a terrible thing (especially since our #2 potty trained before he was 2). So, in June 2012, my wife decided to have a bunion removed on her foot. Though it seems minor, it's a reconstructive type of surgery. She had one removed on her other foot prior to our wedding and we had decided that the one would go once we were done with kids because they break your foot and you have to be immobile for a bit. Anyhow, surgery happens (and negative pregnancy test to boot) and about a week later, she tells me 'Hey, I haven't started yet".. So I tell her "surgery, body might be stressed, give it a week or two, and then.." She had been doing those ovulation tests for a while (though we had stopped) and the package always comes with a pregnancy test or two. Around father's day that year, she took a test and bam, she was pregnant. Honestly, her yearly check up was scheduled in July and she was ready to start with the BC again. The only thing that sucked for her was that she was still recovering from her surgery and she couldn't take her vicodin (or even motrin) for the pain.

** It worked out quite alright because we got our girl. She just turned 1 and she was a huge blessing. My FIL was diagnosed with pancreatic cancer while my wife was pregnant and we weren't even sure that he would see his granddaughter. A year and a half later, he is doing alright and he is absolutely attached to her (which drives my wife crazy sometimes, because he wasn't around when she was little). Oh, and we had moved in with the in-laws prior to my wife being pregnant (she bought a condo during the height of the market and we needed to let it go and my in-laws - our - house is huge).

Oh, but most importantly.. being a parent is hard. Like really hard.
   391. David Nieporent (now, with children) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:38 PM (#4681082)
Agreed. Americans are mostly dumb about nudity. Get over it already. Seeing a breast or a penis is not a big deal. Sheesh.
Depends on whose.
   392. base ball chick Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:42 PM (#4681091)
372. Gaelan Posted: April 07, 2014 at 12:23 PM (#4680965)

The major benefit of formula is that it allows the Dad a more active role in childrearing. That has a huge benefits down the road. I know of a number of moms who because they were breastfeeding effectively shunted the Dad out of all the main duties when the child was a baby. Then, they expect the Dad later to know how to do everything (and to want to) but they don't because they never learned how (or to like it).

So my rule #1 of parenting is this: start as you mean to go on. If you want both parents to have equal responsibility this has to begin as soon as possible. Likewise, if you expect both parents to have equal responsibility they have to have equal rights/power. If the mother makes every single decision she shouldn't complain when the dad isn't gracious about doing what he is told.


- couple of things here
this is harder than usual to explain to a male about us females. not that that we can ever explain anything to Yew Peeple, but here goes

1 - after you give birth, you have these feelings that come out of nowhere. which tell you to hold the baby and not let nobody else hold it and they are YOURS and everyone else should just GO
- which is not fair and we feel guilty too. the hell of being a woman is trying to figure out why you are always feeling guilty about SOMEthing. then feeling guilty about that.

i got this wonderful picture of mah Husband holding our twins when they are about 20 minutes old and he looks like it is not possible for any male human being to be happier/more filled with perfect bliss. i love looking at it, even now.

2 - i can't explain this neither, but breastfeeding is something you can do, all by your own self, without some MAN telling you what to do, how to do it or "helping" and making you feel stupid and incompetent. men got a very hard time telling the difference when a woman is talking to talk and when she is asking for help. i know that a lot of women won't say the words - will you help me. and this makes things worse. but just the same, you FEEL that when you have a baby, you should be able to do everything all by yourself and perfectly too and your babies should always be happy and perfect and if they are not it is YOUR fault. and when a MAN does something - like say, holding the baby and he stops crying and he wouldn't when you were holding him, you feel bad.

this stuff is REALLY bad right after you have a baby and maybe the first week-2 weeks, but then it gets better. it's why we cry so easy. even if we are not "depressed". especially when you get home from the hospital and you are dog tired and the adrenalin has wore off and you are exhausted, nervous, hungry, tired, wired, anxious and feeling feelings. (and every damm female you know busy tellin you how to do your babies and tellin you how you doin it wrong and everything that went wrong with someone else's baby). and yes, your own mama is the worst. best thing mah Husband did was to throw everyone out and tell them to leave me the **** alone.

3 - there is a shttton more to do with infants/babies/toddlers than just feeding them and daddys can be involved in all KINDS of stuff. like burping the babies. men are REALLY good at that. let's not leave out bathing, changing, holding, talking to, dressing, undressing, laundry etc. and yes i know that there are too many women who want a man to do things like a woman would do it with or without being told and this is beyond stupid. men do things like men do things.

4 - formula does NOT agree with a lot of babies. a LOT of men do not have tolerance for being thrown up on... and, hate to say this, but a lot of men's idea of "feeding the baby" is to put the baby in a car seat and prop the bottle on the edge.

   393. Joe Kehoskie Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:48 PM (#4681101)
I don't think most people do have a problem if it's done discreetly. If there's an exposed breast, it's not discreet, and it's inappropriate. We don't let guys take off their shirts in restaurants either.

Right. There's a big difference between discreet public breastfeeding and the performance-art variety that's increasingly common. The usual suspects seem to support the latter mostly because it provides them an opportunity to engage in self-righteous preening.

***
NONE of my relatives/gf who got preggo after age 20/22 who put on all that FAT ever got back to pre pregnancy weight. most grrls can not afford expensive personal trainers and chefs and plastic surgeons like the movie stars get

At the risk of inviting bbc's ire ... excuses!

None of the above are remotely needed for getting one to one's ideal weight. (And an "expensive personal trainer" can be had, at least in spirit, for $11.90.)
   394. Lassus Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:58 PM (#4681114)
Right. There's a big difference between discreet public breastfeeding and the performance-art variety that's increasingly common.

I'm guessing your line between discrete and performance art is rather thin.
   395. base ball chick Posted: April 07, 2014 at 01:58 PM (#4681115)
being a parent is hard. like REALLY hard.

and kids are people and are different from one another, and sometimes, you have to deal differently with them than you did with the others.

grandparents can be good and they can be a serious pain in the ass. too many times, they want to just take over. or they want the kid to be spoilt and act like the world's biggest shttehead. my second oldest brother got into it with our daddy when the twins were 4 about how different and BETTER grandaddy was than when brother was the same age. which was true. i told mah brother - just because he as an a$$$hole with you don't mean he had to stay one for the rest of his life and just maybe SOME men grow up
   396. base ball chick Posted: April 07, 2014 at 02:02 PM (#4681124)
joe

am still not hearing any MEDICAL reason why it is necessary to put on all that FAT in the first place
   397. Bitter Mouse Posted: April 07, 2014 at 02:08 PM (#4681135)
and kids are people and are different from one another, and sometimes, you have to deal differently with them than you did with the others.


Yes. My boys are night and day. One on the autism spectrum and the other a social butterfly (to pick out just one example). The same strategies did not work for both, which was very disheartening. But I love them both. Mostly.
   398. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: April 07, 2014 at 02:13 PM (#4681141)
We don't let guys take off their shirts in restaurants either.



Men don't generally breastfeed.
   399. The Good Face Posted: April 07, 2014 at 02:24 PM (#4681151)
1 & 2 from post 392 are outstanding explanations, and, based on my experiences with my wife, are absolutely true and accurate.
   400. if nature called, ladodger34 would listen Posted: April 07, 2014 at 02:26 PM (#4681155)
My boys are different specimens. My oldest is singularly focused kind of kid that I expect will excel in Math and pursuits like that. My middle kid is far more vocal. Once he escapes his brother's shadow, I have a feeling that his interests will be far more diverse. My baby girl is only a year, so I don't have a super great take on her personality yet, though she does fancy herself as a comedian these days.

//I have a feeling my middle kid will be trouble. He's a handsome devil with blonde hair and blue eyes with a big mouth. Eventually, he will also be fluent in Spanish (our oldest is in a dual immersion program) and with his Mommy's maiden name (Ruiz) he will charm the pants off of the Mexican mom's in our area (did I mention our boys are also Catholic?).
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