Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Tuesday, October 30, 2012

Free Press: Leyland, Coaches Return for 2013

Henning (News): Detroit Hot-Stove Speculations

Marlboro Man rides again!

“Detroit is a tremendous baseball town, and I couldn’t dream of a better place to manage,” Leyland said in a released statement. “The support of Mr. Ilitch and Dave is second to none and gives this club an opportunity to win every year. Tigers fans and the people of Michigan have supported us so well during my time here, I can’t even begin to express how much that means to me.”

The Tigers this season won their second AL championship in Leyland’s seven years on the job. The only Tigers manager to win three AL pennants was Hughie Jennings in 1907-09. Jennings lost all three of his World Series, as Leyland has lost both of his in Detroit.

Also, Henning (News): Detroit Hot-Stove Speculations

fra paolo Posted: October 30, 2012 at 10:31 AM | 31 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: managers, tigers

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 11:12 AM (#4288230)
Great news. He's not perfect tactically, but he's generally good with the bullpen, guys have defined roles in the pen and on the bench, the players respect him and play hard for him, and he's calm in a crisis (if sometimes too calm/comatose - see the 9th inning of ALCS Game One). I'm very happy about this, but probably not nearly as happy as Don Kelly is.
   2. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 11:15 AM (#4288232)
The local radio folks were calling for Leyland's head every day of the regular season and every day of the postseason as well. Toward the end of the season they actually said they would prefer it if the Tigers didn't make it so Leyland would be fired. So I don't think they'll be too pleased about this.
   3. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 11:20 AM (#4288237)
If only Detroit had the vigilant Boston sports media to ride him out of town.
   4. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 30, 2012 at 11:25 AM (#4288242)
He's got some quirks with lineup construction and has his inexplicable favorites (see Raburn, Ryan), but most managers do. I watch a lot of Tigers games and don't quite get the hate a chunk of Tigers fans have for him. And it's not like a Ron Washington 2011 World Series situation where it felt like the Rangers were winning in spite of their manager. Is it just a case of the time honored tradition of disliking your favorite team's manager because you pay so much attention to the team that you naturally will disagree with some of their choices over the course of a long season?
   5. fra paolo Posted: October 30, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4288278)
Is it just a case of the time honored tradition of disliking your favorite team's manager because you pay so much attention to the team that you naturally will disagree with some of their choices over the course of a long season?

My complaint is very specific, in that I don't think he manages a pitching staff very well. He leaves his pitchers in a batter or three too long, or is too slow in recognising that a bullpen pitcher has gone cold and he has to make adjustments. Sometimes that has cost him games over the years.

There is also an issue with being out-thought. As far as pre-game planning went, it looked like the Giants had him completely outfoxed, and his team couldn't adjust fast enough to the problem. I don't know whether that can be completely laid at his door, as professional scouts are presumably the GM's bailiwick. But the whole 'Leyland plays his guys' ethos can be seen as part of that.

All that said, I am not unhappy that he is coming back. There is no-one available that I would tout as a clear upgrade.
   6. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4288293)

As far as pre-game planning went, it looked like the Giants had him completely outfoxed, and his team couldn't adjust fast enough to the problem.

Do you have a specific example of this? I just don't see how Verlander having a bad start or his hitters going in the tank is evidence of the Giants "outfoxing" Leyland.
   7. TDF, situational idiot Posted: October 30, 2012 at 12:45 PM (#4288349)
As far as pre-game planning went, it looked like the Giants had him completely outfoxed, and his team couldn't adjust fast enough to the problem.
The Tigers lost because of the lack of hitting, pure and simple. In the series, they only had 12 AB with a runner in scoring position; the Giants had 9 in game 4 alone.

The manager could have been the bastard son of Earl Weaver and Sparky Anderson and still gotten swept.
   8. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: October 30, 2012 at 12:49 PM (#4288354)
Leyland said in a released statement.

Oddly, we don't know what was in the unreleased statement.
   9. fra paolo Posted: October 30, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4288357)
I just don't see how Verlander having a bad start or his hitters going in the tank is evidence of the Giants "outfoxing" Leyland.

Jim Price was commenting about the way the Giants were pitching to Cabrera and Fielder. They should have adjusted, and part of the job of Leyland and his coaches is to both to spot that and to get the players to do something to counter it.

For all I know the coaches/scouts spotted this, too, and the hitters just couldn't adjust despite coaching. But that's why I said 'looked like' as opposed to 'was'.
   10. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4288370)

Perhaps. It should be noted that both those guys also hit several balls hard for outs. Before Cabrera's popout with the bases loaded in Game Four, he missed a double down the RF line by a few feet.
   11. Derb Posted: October 30, 2012 at 01:14 PM (#4288384)
I'm happy about Leyland coming back... not so happy about Lamont or McClendon coming back.

I never understood why my fellow Detroit fans wanted Leyland gone. I think this is a case of "be careful what you wish for." Yeah, he has his flaws, but everybody does. His biggest strength, however, is the way he manages his clubhouse. With how many big egos that have been on the Tigers in recent years, you can't let this skill go undervalued. I shudder to think what would happen if a guy who couldn't manage a clubhouse took over Detroit.
   12. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4288402)

not so happy about Lamont or McClendon coming back.

Well, Harrah's coming back as co-hitting coach, so that might help.

Dombrowski is doing a presser right now. He's already said Valverde won't be back. Dotel and Peralta have had their options picked up.
   13. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 01:28 PM (#4288407)

My complaint is very specific, in that I don't think he manages a pitching staff very well. He leaves his pitchers in a batter or three too long, or is too slow in recognising that a bullpen pitcher has gone cold and he has to make adjustments. Sometimes that has cost him games over the years.


You could say this about almost every manager. I also think batting Quentin Berry second is beyond stupid, but that's a pretty ordinary manager mistake. The players seem to like and respect the old guy, and I really think that's about all you can ask for from a manager unless he's willing to think really out of the box and put his good hitters 1st and 2nd instead of the fastest guy and best bunter. Other than that, they're all pretty interchangeable or downright bad.
   14. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4288410)

not so happy about Lamont or McClendon coming back.


Those bases won't steal themselves.
   15. fra paolo Posted: October 30, 2012 at 02:08 PM (#4288434)
You could say this about almost every manager.

I could, but then I might not be saying it about a manager whose write-up in Dag Nabbit's book emphasises his issues with handling pitchers, or who has gone through three pitching coaches in six years in Detroit, which seems to me a high attrition rate.

Leyland's weakness has historically been with pitching. Let's say it has cost him more games than I would have expected.
   16. Russ Posted: October 30, 2012 at 02:10 PM (#4288436)

My complaint is very specific, in that I don't think he manages a pitching staff very well. He leaves his pitchers in a batter or three too long, or is too slow in recognising that a bullpen pitcher has gone cold and he has to make adjustments. Sometimes that has cost him games over the years.


This sounds like Monday morning quarterbacking to me.

1) It's hard to tell a pitcher is going south before they actually have. I doubt that a fan's ability to do so is better than Leyland's.

2) Leyland's strength is managing the pitching staff and the players over the course of a long season, which is why he's a quintessential player's manager. He somehow manages to get everyone at bats and innings and rarely steps on player toes. Even the famous blow out with Barry Bonds was due to Bonds arguing with Bill Virdon and Leyland stepping in to take the heat for his coach.

Leyland's biggest flaw is probably that he over-values defence, although that's not uncommon for MLB managers.
   17. Russ Posted: October 30, 2012 at 02:12 PM (#4288442)
Leyland's weakness has historically been with pitching. Let's say it has cost him more games than I would have expected.


I think this is pretty much untrue. Leyland has a reputation for getting more out of the pitching staff (particularly the bullpen) than would be expected.

   18. madvillain Posted: October 30, 2012 at 02:21 PM (#4288449)
Leyland's biggest flaw is probably that he over-values defence, although that's not uncommon for MLB managers.


What? This is a manager that trots out Ryan Rayburn at 2nd and stuck with young in of forever. He doesn't value defense at all. He values his "gut", which is often the wrong choice.

Overall he is a good clubhouse manager and a bad tactician, par for the course really.
   19. McCoy Posted: October 30, 2012 at 02:24 PM (#4288455)
Overall he is a good clubhouse manager and a bad tactician, par for the course really.

Well, if it is par for the course then that probably tells you that the tactical part of the game is pretty small and largely meaningless. Which I can believe.
   20. fra paolo Posted: October 30, 2012 at 02:34 PM (#4288465)
Leyland has a reputation for getting more out of the pitching staff (particularly the bullpen) than would be expected.

At least one sabermetric analysis begs to differ, although it doesn't cover many of his Detroit years.
   21. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4288466)

Well, if it is par for the course then that probably tells you that the tactical part of the game is pretty small and largely meaningless. Which I can believe.


Two-time pennant-winner Ron Washington is Exhibit A.
   22. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 30, 2012 at 03:15 PM (#4288512)
Leyland? Lamont? McClendon? How did I not know that the Tigers were coached by three ex-Pirates managers?

Jim Tracy is available. Make him 1B coach and John Russell bullpen coach. That gives you all the living non-interim Pirates managers except the aforementioned Bill Virdon.
   23. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 04:02 PM (#4288563)

What? This is a manager that trots out Ryan Rayburn at 2nd and stuck with young in of forever.

Forever? Delmon Young played all of 31 games in the outfield this year, hardly any of them after the end of June.

In other Delmon Young news, the Tigers announced he won't be back either. What does he get? Could be anywhere from 3/30 to a minor-league deal.
   24. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 30, 2012 at 04:13 PM (#4288586)
Delmon will sit at home until Aug. 30th or so, at which point, every team in playoff contention will be knocking down his front door to ink him to a deal. I have never seen a guy look so useless on a regular basis during the season and then become such an offensive force in October.
   25. Bug Selig Posted: October 30, 2012 at 05:00 PM (#4288648)
Leyland's biggest flaw is probably that he over-values defence, although that's not uncommon for MLB managers.


Jesus Christ, he regularly pencils in "1B P. Fielder", "SS J. Peralta", "3B M. Cabrera", and for awhile "LF D. Young" and "2B R. Raburn".

WTF were the other choices if that's overvaluing defense?

IMO, his big quirk (which may be a leftover NL preference) is a preference for the Raburn/Kelly flavor of bench guy who can do a lot of things, but none of them well.
   26. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 30, 2012 at 05:18 PM (#4288673)
I have never seen a guy look so useless on a regular basis during the season and then become such an offensive force in October.


Delmon Young is the new Scott Spiezio.
   27. something like a train wreck Posted: October 30, 2012 at 05:57 PM (#4288716)
has his inexplicable favorites (see Raburn, Ryan)


Who, exactly, did Rayburn hold back?

The Tigers have lacked a corner outfielder, a 2b and a bench for 3 years and they refused to deal with the problem. I don't think that is Leyland. I don't know if Don Kelly would be on the roster of another major league team. I'm certain that he would not be any team's primary pinch hitter! They had a bunch of 2b options that can't hit or field and Rayburn, who can't field but at times in his career has been a decent hitter. It's easy in hindsight to be critical of sticking with Rayburn as long as he did this year, but there were no better options.
   28. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 07:12 PM (#4288769)
In other Delmon Young news, the Tigers announced he won't be back either. What does he get? Could be anywhere from 3/30 to a minor-league deal.
He'll get a Major League contract, but given that his current franchise basically announced "We want no part of this guy" despite being ALCS MVP, I can't imagine he'll get anything like $30/3. Funnily enough, he'd be a good fit for the Yankees in the Andruw Jones role, except I suspect his off-the-field issues will prevent that.
   29. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: October 30, 2012 at 07:47 PM (#4288790)
Oddly, we don't know what was in the unreleased statement.


It was mostly swears, amid a cloud of cigarette smoke.
   30. Cooper Nielson Posted: October 30, 2012 at 10:21 PM (#4288889)
I've grown to like Leyland over the years. I used to think he was overrated, as he came with the sheen of a "superstar" manager and IMHO managers cannot be superstars -- their impact simply isn't large enough. Leyland's not great at everything but I do think the players respect him and play hard for him, and there is almost never any dissent in the Tiger clubhouse. He's probably "average" (among 30 MLB managers) tactically, as well as with pitching staff management.

His Tiger teams have made the postseason 3.5 times (I count 2009), which is a pretty big deal for a club that hasn't even been in many playoff races since World War II.

You could say this about almost every manager. I also think batting Quentin Berry second is beyond stupid, but that's a pretty ordinary manager mistake.

In the World Series, this was my only real complaint about Leyland. Berry shouldn't have been playing at all (since July), and he had him batting second two games in a row. After the first game, where Berry looked completely overmatched in every single AB, I would have at the very least dropped him to 9th in the order.
   31. JL Posted: October 31, 2012 at 10:09 AM (#4289139)
The Tigers have lacked a corner outfielder, a 2b and a bench for 3 years and they refused to deal with the problem. I don't think that is Leyland. I don't know if Don Kelly would be on the roster of another major league team. I'm certain that he would not be any team's primary pinch hitter! They had a bunch of 2b options that can't hit or field and Rayburn, who can't field but at times in his career has been a decent hitter. It's easy in hindsight to be critical of sticking with Rayburn as long as he did this year, but there were no better options.

This has been a complaint of mine as well, but I always balmed the GM for that. Getting upgrades for these guys is what a good GM should be doing. That Dombrowski did not is a negative in my mind.

Where I do fault Leyland is his reliance on crappy proven closers. Todd Jones and Jose Valverde (with a crappy Fernando Rodney year sandwisched in between) just bug the hell out of me. No reason they needed to be the closer.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Jim Wisinski
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogPapelbon blows lead, gets ejected for crotch-grabbing at fans
(58 - 12:28am, Sep 16)
Last: steagles

NewsblogOT: NBC.news: Valve isn’t making one gaming console, but multiple ‘Steam machines’
(813 - 12:15am, Sep 16)
Last: Win Big Stein's Money

NewsblogOT: Politics, September, 2014: ESPN honors Daily Worker sports editor Lester Rodney
(2507 - 12:09am, Sep 16)
Last: Shredder

NewsblogBowman: A year’s worth of struggles leads reason to wonder what changes are in store for the Braves
(10 - 12:03am, Sep 16)
Last: bigglou115

NewsblogA’s lose Triple-A Sacramento affiliate
(14 - 11:51pm, Sep 15)
Last: Win Big Stein's Money

NewsblogOMNICHATTER 9-15-2014
(78 - 11:46pm, Sep 15)
Last: RollingWave

NewsblogHeyman: Mariners have decided not to retain the ice-cream buying scout
(4 - 11:45pm, Sep 15)
Last: SoSHially Unacceptable

NewsblogSports Bog: Fans Switch From Skins to Nats
(62 - 11:41pm, Sep 15)
Last: boteman is not here 'til October

NewsblogCalcaterra: Derek Jeter got a bucket of crabs and a captain’s hat from the Orioles
(12 - 11:41pm, Sep 15)
Last: Jolly Old St. Nick Is A Jolly Old St. Crip

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread, September 2014
(219 - 10:43pm, Sep 15)
Last: frannyzoo

NewsblogOT August 2014:  Wrassle Mania I
(161 - 10:11pm, Sep 15)
Last: NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!)

Newsblog10 Degrees: Why WAR doesn’t always add up
(340 - 9:46pm, Sep 15)
Last: cardsfanboy

NewsblogOT: September 2014 College Football thread
(245 - 9:20pm, Sep 15)
Last: spike

NewsblogJesus Montero gets heckled by Mariners cross checker during rehab stint
(67 - 9:09pm, Sep 15)
Last: Win Big Stein's Money

NewsblogKapler: Baseball’s next big competitive edge
(83 - 8:45pm, Sep 15)
Last: McCoy

Page rendered in 0.2502 seconds
52 querie(s) executed