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1. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: May 02, 2008 at 08:22 PM (#2766754)< /Bissinger>
Based on what? He shredded his ligament during the incident. What happened afterwards isn't relevant. He could probably pitch on it for the rest of the season, if he wanted to, but getting it fixed is best for his career.
It was evident, but incorrect.
"Dr. Raasch said there was no evidence of further trauma," said Ash. "I specifically asked Dr. Raasch that question. He was quite clear that he didn't believe it was an issue (that Gallardo pitched another inning). It wouldn't have changed anything in terms of what we know today."
Link
Yovani Gallardo (0 DXL/0)
It looked bad, really bad, when Gallardo went down in a heap on a bunt play. He grabbed his knee, and it looked for all the world like it was some devastating injury. A closer look at the tape makes me wonder if it was the right decision to leave him in, but toughness is a quality that this Brewers team is looking for. Gallardo has it, and helped keep the game close enough to allow for a comeback. As far as what happened, when Gallardo leaped over Reed Johnson, he landed with his right knee hyperextended and rolled over the top of it. The way he grabbed the knee it looked like he'd lost lateral stability, but that wasn't the right mechanism. Instead, the mechanism would suggest a PCL strain or meniscus damage. We'll see how Gallardo comes back from this by his throw day, but he looked reasonably stable on the mound. You'll remember that Gallardo had knee surgery during spring training, but that was his left knee, which came out of the incident relatively unscathed. While there's a zero up there on the DXL, do not be surprised to see this change, even if it's just missing a start.
If we keep trying to not pitch talented pitchers, when will anyone ever win? Yes I understand the risk of injuries with young arms, but.....
At some point not pitching does not qualify as a "saving grace". I don't necessarily see how pitching 20 innings in 2008 saves his arm more for 2009 than if he pitched 175 innings this year. It is a setback to his pitching development.
Not picking on you Harvey's, but this topic and issue of "protecting arms" has been taken to absurd levels in this community recently.
He already lapped Hughes. And was starting to pull away from Bucholz, who is older. Tiny Tim is excellent, with a very high upside. Maybe the highest.
But somebody here is just plain nuts. I remember the pain when I tore mine. And I REALLY remember the popping sounds it made when it tore. I remember scrambling across the floor to "escape" the pain -- some instinctive thing I suppose, as if some sabre-toothed tiger had just munched down on my leg. I remember the scream. I remember the scream not causing the referee (IM basketball) to stop the game so I screamed really, really loud such that the entire gym (about 12 courts) stopped. I had absolutely no doubt that things were ###### and ###### badly.
I can't say it's impossible that I could have jumped up and started pitching, pushing off my right leg ... but I can sure tell you that I knew there was no way that was a good idea.
Good luck to Gallardo in his recovery.
But sorry HW, Sheets is still their best pitcher, though it might be close. Alas, Gallardo looked like their best combination of quality and durability.
BTW, there apparently was a Stalin Gallardo in the Phillies system at one point. Lasted for 4 IP of rookie ball. Alas, his brothers Hitler, Pol Pot and Idi never made it.
I don't trust Yost. Period.
I believe the evidence supports this stance.
Even I know what this is. I agree, this is standard in the NFL, you see it in almost every game and you also see a guy get banged up, get this test, and then return to the game.
But continuing to play on it after it's torn risks blowing out the whole knee (MCL and meniscus).
That's how it was for me, but it's definitely different for others. Baron Davis didn't even fall down when he tore his ACL in the NCAA tourney against Michigan. He even jogged back and played defense before leaving the game.
i'm sorry. really. the crew SHOULD have won this year at the very least. actually they SHOULD have won in 06 and 07, the eff with Da Plan...
and no dana eveland neither...
Further regarding the "saving grace" being Gallardo's arm is saved.
I see little difference in harm between 175 and 20 for 2008. As I said, I understand the methods today to protect young arms, but you are missing my point I think. Gallardo pitched approx 170 innings last year, I happen to think being age 22 and only pitching 20 innings is a major setback to his development and arm building stamina.
Sure I suppose there is indeed risk of injury after pitching 1 inning, I suppose pitching ZERO would be safer. But that is not the risk people are trying to manage.
People are trying to manage overuse. Overuse doesn't become a factor at 20 innings or even 120 innings for Gallardo. Overuse for Gallardo wouldn't even be a conversation until he was over 180 innings of stayed in for 130 pitches in a single game.
It was entirely correct. The fact that he didn't sustain further injury is immaterial. Shooting yourself in the head with a nail gun doesn't become any less stupid if you happen not to hit anything important.
Once it's torn, it's torn.
Well, yeah, but the reason you don't keep running around with a torn cruciate isn't the dreaded "double rupture," it's that the instability puts you at increased risk of injury to all the other structures. Imagine the world of hurt he's in right now if somebody'd dropped a bunt down the third base side and he'd run over there and tried to plant and throw.
Ed. - Or, y'know, what Danny said.
Yeah, but he did roll and around and scream about being hurt? Should Yost have taken him out to be proactive? Probably, but Gallardo didn't say "Skip, my knees not right, I need to come out" either.
Oh, and Grant Fuhr played an entire playoff season for the Blues without one ACL
Yup, and the patellar tendon, and who knows, maybe the hamstring too. Throw in the quad too. And so on.
Gallardo's not the doctor.
I don't particularly blame Yost; I blame the trainer. He failed to properly examine a pitcher after a frightening knee injury. They shouldn't have let Gallardo even step back on the mound before giving him a Lachmans.
To all other posters my remarks being quoted (out of context) were AND remain specific to Ned Yost and his handling of pitchers. In no way do these comments reflect my complete philosophy and/or views with respect to pitcher usage.
Suggestions otherwise are erroneous and without foundation.
Ugh, I've done it too, and of course last night I had my recurring nightmare about lying in the grass gasping for air screaming in pain. Good times.
I don't know what the circumstances of this one were, but hockey players generally come back much more quickly from a blown ACL than other athletes. There are some few guys that blow an ACL when they're young and never have it repaired. Hines Ward, for instance. That's ultra-rare, though, obviously.
Of course this is a big blow to the Brewers, especially coming this early. Factor in that you can't expect Sheets to pitch all year, and it's probably going to take a serious injury or two of their own to stop the Cubs from running away from the rest of the division.
Harveys' estimate on the number of wins Yost costs the Brewers (5, if memory serves) might've been low.
R Oswalt
R Harden
J Blanton
I Snell
who else is available?
They already have Ben Sheets; they don't need an even less reliable model.
Do they have to win in 2008? What stars on the team that they're expecting to lose in the offseason? The same young core should be there. I hesitate to trade the farm to take a shot at winning right now.
And I was skeptical for a while, but I'm coming around to agreeing with Harveys that Yost is not the man to take them anywhere.
I'd suspect Weaver/Chris Narveson (not on 40, but easily arranged by swinging Gallardo or Capuano to the 60-day) would get some starts when the need for another starter arrives.
In 2008 Milwaukee loses Sheets. So, basically their best pitcher. And more importantly, the NL Central is improving very quickly. The bar is rather low to win in 2007, '08 is a different story. There is additional uncertainty in CF and at closer, neither is a lock to return, both positions could be even worse.
It was 3 seasons ago, THREE!, that Milwaukee was .500 for the first time in 12 seasons, to be three years removed from that and still not any closer to the playoffs would be a miss. This team has a lot of talent on it now, you don't pass on 2007. They already beat the Cubs twice in Chicago, the first time without Gallardo. This division can still be had without him, but it would help to get another above average starting pitcher.
Nobody suggested they do this. In fact, I suggested they
This can be accomplished. This usually means taking on a contract. I don't want to be the Twins where they never make the move to try and win, but are just content with replacing their stars every 4 years from the farm, keeping the franchise near a 85-90 win quality team, and a 1st rd sweep/loss.
A couple of years ago, sure it could.
Now, with the current economics of the game, with the exception of maybe the Marlins and the A's, and perhaps a few others, not so.
If a pitcher is still worth having (not the Matt Morrises of the world), even if overpaid, there'd be competition, which means more than just the prior practice of taking the contract and tossing a body back.
In the current market, even a slightly overpaid pitcher is going to require one of the Brewers' good prospects or a MLB player in return.
Like every other team, the Brewers can try to scrape up a has-been or a guy who has slipped through the cracks (which is what they did with the Weaver signing and the Narveson signing - I seem to recall a number of Cards fans last year who wanted Narveson to pitch in the Cards' rotation)
I don't really see that there's any pitching help to be had outside the Brewers organization, unless they're willing to give up a package that starts with LaPorta. Sure, it's the GM's job to make all the phone calls he can, but it's long odds.
I'm on the side of the "what the hell were they doing!?" crowd on this one. To let one of your franchise's most valuable commodities keep pitching after sustaining an obviously painful knee injury is horribly irresponsible and, I think, serious enough an offense to merit immediate termination. Get him out of there, get him seriously checked out, and then evaluate whether he needs to miss any more time.
It's in Gallardo's best interest that the ACL tear was found now and he's done for the year, before the Brewers let him keep trying to pitch through it until he messed up his arm trying to compensate for the bad knee in his delivery.
Snell signed a five-year deal in spring training, and is still cheap.
The ONLY way he gets moved, unless he gets caught fornicating with squirrels in a public park or something, is for a big return.
Burnett.
Who knows, that is why you hire a GM, to make these calls, find someone, get creative. Add Justin Z to the poo-poo'er everything is impossible. How do you guys make it through a day?
Also, "trading away the future" does not mean every young player is traded. It means one, possibly two players. It means one very good, or maybe 2-3 just good (see santana deal). That is a piece of the future, not the entire future. I see a window, a window of 5 years with Braun, Prince (3) where the Brewers have to make their move.
Also, we may have reached a point where teams are overvaluing their prospects. Most don't do much in the majors. If you are good at scouting, identify those prospects that have value, yet you feel won't make it, trade them. (Nelson Cruz; ring a bell?, soon add Will Inman to that list of Brewers knew they weren't prospects but got talent for them anyway)
I never said it was easy.
1. J.P. Ricciardi's job most likely depends on the Blue Jays making the postseason or at least coming very close. It's not likely he's going to want to unload Burnett, even with his salary, for a few B prospects at this point in time.
2. Burnett has a partial no-trade allowing him to block deals to 15 teams. Milwaukee may be one of them. (Though I've seen rumors aplenty are he hates the Blue Jays and may accept a trade anywhere.)
So yes, it's worth making the call, but you shouldn't be optimistic anything's going to get done. What other possibilities do you have in mind? I'm honestly not trying to snark you. I'm just having trouble coming up with any possible trade that a) seriously upgrades the Brewers rotation and b) doesn't cost the Brewers Matt LaPorta.
Well, you could have read what I wrote. That is pretty specific. Do you want DNA samples?
I asked who else is available, instead you became a king naysayer. You didn't even want to brainstorm, instead tried to make the case it wasn't worth talking about.
Oswalt is going to cost the Brewers big-time.
Harden's an interesting gamble that they might be able to pull off.
Blanton would cost them big-time.
Snell, who knows? If he belonged to an intelligent organization he'd be untouchable. Good thing for the Brewers that's not the case, so yeah, make the call, but don't be real hopeful.
What else do we have?
If we wait until the environment is perfect to act, you will never act. If you think holding on to every last prospect is the way to maximize value, I have to say you are wrong. Milwaukee and Arizona are not that different. They both have a young talented core, yet Arizona dealt away quite a large piece of "their future", kept their best prospect, and landed an above average pitcher to further improve their chances, despite having good quality already in the rotation.
When you have a young talented core, young being key, you don't need to, or have room for, keeping every last prospect. You are going to see the Rays run into a problem, if they have not already, of having too many prospects to evaluate and not enough space to play on the big club. Sometimes it is best to consolidate several good pieces (prospects) into one very good piece (certainty) because of space/logistics.
Hall and middle prospect (Z Braddock) for Chavez and Blanton/Haren. Thoughts?
T Gwynn, Dave Bush, middle prospect for C Young (padres). Am I off my rocker?
The As trade depends on how badly the As want to dump Chavez's contract.
No point to it. We don't need to trade any of those players, so only way it's getting done is for Laporta or someone in that vein.
He meant Harden, I'm sure. It was mighty decent of the A's to separate Haren and Harden. That was uncool.
And even if you swing a trade for Burnett, its a lose-lose. If he is healthy the rest of the way ( big IF ), he has an opt out clause after this season.
I think the Crew has spare parts to trade. Apart from LaPorta, there is Gamel. But noone is going to swing a trade at this early point in the season. Except the Giants maybe. LaPorta for Sanchez?
LaPorta is playing RF a lot. C Hart will move to CF, Braun and LaPorta in the corners. LaPorta is not a "must trade" player. The D-Backs got Haren without giving up their top prospect, it can be done.
#69: The A's got a lot for Haren and some of it quite useful thank you very much.
Considering what the A's got for Haren (who is better than Country Joe but not by as much as people think), LaPorta and Hall for Blanton, Buck, and DLS is fair. Blanton is cost-controlled as is Buck. Heck, I'd even through in a useful arm like Andrew Brown.
I don't understand why teams don't rearrange or align their talent mid-season more often. Beane has done it often with good results. The A's would insert Simmons into the rotation (with Cahill, Anderson, HRod, and Gio waiting just offstage), dump Cust for Laporta, Hall goes to third, etc. Also the A's need right handed bats, so it fits from that perspective also.. The Brewers have Gamel for 3B or move Braun back and obviously they need MLB SP and as many live arms as they can get. Flags fly forever, BrewCrew failthful.
There is no way Milwaukee deals both Hall and Gamel and moves Braun back to 3b. Milwaukee has seen an improvement in D this year. If they were going to move Braun back to 3B, LaPorta would be up playing LF next month.
I think you're a wee bit too excited over 100 great at bats. Gamel wasn't rated as a top 100 prospect by BP or BA, and his stats weren't all that great coming into the year. The kid has 99 errors in 257 career games at 3B.
Someone alert Carlos Gonzalez that he needs to report to Tucson immediately.
I don't doubt that LaPorta will outhit Buck; I just think he'll give it all back with his glove. We should also keep in mind that LaPorta is tearing up AA at the same age that Buck had a 130 OPS+ in MLB.
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