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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Sunday, December 30, 2012
Gammo ballot: J. Morris - Bagwell - Biggio - Piazza - Raines - E. Martinez - L. Walker - Trammell - Schilling.
I did not vote this year for Barry Bonds and Roger Clemens, Hall of Fame performers who someday will likely be inducted. Is Bonds one of the five to 10 greatest players ever? Yes. Is Clemens one of the three to five best starting pitchers ever? Yes. Someday, they may have to put players from 1990-2005 in a separate wing of the Hall and let everyone in based on talent and achievements, provided they did not test positive after Commissioner Bud Selig won his battle to get testing into the Basic Agreement.
I get the amphetamines argument. Because players in the 1950s, ‘60s and ‘70s used them to enhance performance, one wonders if some of the numbers that were posted would be what they are without beaning up. I get the argument that because owners and the Major League Baseball Players Association did not monitor the enhancements, it comes down to all of the scientific and historical data that Bill James, Jay Jaffe and so many others have provided for us.
But I get the arguments of the players who felt they were cheated out of a level playing field. I get how some voters feel that players do not automatically have the right of enshrinement—although there are places in the Hall for adamant segregationists (like Cap Anson) and owners who allowed employees to restrict African-Americans (Tom Yawkey, for instance). I understand how some voters feel that to vote for certain players sends the wrong values message to their children, and while I disagree on the concept of the “eye test,” I do so respectfully. My highly respected friend and colleague Pedro Gomez and I argued over Jeff Bagwell last month. Despite my citing his high school and college power and the fact that he couldn’t lift a weight anyway during his last five years because of a congenital arthritic condition and that his closest teammate and friend absolutely insisted he was clean, Gomez felt he could not vote for Bagwell.
Repoz
Posted: December 30, 2012 at 07:23 PM | 32 comment(s)
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1. Double-Spin Mechanic Posted: December 30, 2012 at 07:33 PM (#4334773)Clemens did not test positive.
I think he's claiming that those who test positive after the agreement (such as Manny or Raffy) be excluded altogether, while folks like pre-agreement juicers (whether suspected or proved) would be included in the "separate wing."
I'm one of the biggest Bud Selig's supporters on this board, and even I wouldn't say something as stupid as that. When you say won his battle, you are implying there was a battle. Testing was more or less an accident forced on the league by Bud's inability to speak in public, incompetency of our elected officials(who were too busy giving the NFL a blow job on tv to realize that anything was going on) and a moral outrage against a black man taking the last white mans record. Bud had nothing to do with getting testing approved other than being in office at the time it happened.
If that's the case, I can honestly say that I have never heard anyone refer to the breaking of the single-season HR record as a white/black issue.
Besides, it's hardly the last record held by a white man. Cy Young's win total, Ty Cobb's lifetime average, Nolan Ryan's seven no-hitters, and DiMaggio's 56-game streak all come to mind--and without a lot of thought.
What was the purpose of the five year waiting period? Why did BBWAA voters act like our elected officials in Washington and ignore the approaching deadline?
Yes. But it's not really because it's a simple black and white thing, it just helped that the black guy who did roids was an ass, while the white guy who did roids was only half an ass. I was simplifying the argument. Everyone was pretty certain Mac was using but as long as it was quiet nobody really cared because he added popularity to the game, but then Bonds breaks the record and that is the point where people flipped from accepting to strongly against it.
When Gammons mentions an ex-teammate who fingered Bagwell for steroid use, is he referring to Caminiti? Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't recall Caminiti or any ex-teammate fingering Bags as a steroid user and what other player that Gammons says most of us would bet a year's salary was clean is Gammons talking about?
Adam Everett.
:-)
OK.
although there are places in the Hall for adamant segregationists (like Cap Anson) and owners who allowed employees to restrict African-Americans (Tom Yawkey, for instance).
This is either a non-sequitur or it begs the question (in the sense that any normal human being would understand it) as to what does one have to do to be denied this "automatic" right of enshrinement? I mean racism is pretty bad yeah?
I understand how some voters feel that to vote for certain players sends the wrong values message to their children,
Well, don't tell the little darlings you voted for Bonds. I'm sure there are all sorts of things most writers have done in their life that, if they told their children, would send the wrong message. Like the time they gave an award to a child molester.
Just sayin'
and while I disagree on the concept of the “eye test,” I do so respectfully.
And here's where Gammons goes completely off the rails. Sorry, no, the "eye test" deserves no respect. When one set of people are doing something moronic that is to the detriment of another set of people, you're supposed to call that #### out.
EDIT: Oops, "Bud winning his battle" went ever further off the rails first. Even Pedro Gomez might not say something that dumb.
If so, Ryan's a lucky man. Maybe too lucky. Was an autopsy ever done on Caminiti, and did the coroner check for signs of collarbone constriction, and repeated impact trauma to the top of the head?
It's reasonable to point this out, just as it's reasonable to ask whether any players who did not use amphetamines felt cheated out of a level playing field by those that did use. (I've never heard such a complaint, but that doesn't mean complaints don't exist.)
And that place should be their own separate wing. Now that's justice.
???
Ryan was pulled off Ventura before he could finish the job. Caminiti's death didn't have witnesses.
I'm not suggesting or implying anything, other than the likelihood that Nolan Ryan murdered Ken Caminiti to cover up his own illegal drug use. And that Peter Gammons is probably next.
The only person who directly accused Bagwell was a Houston-based "personal fitness trainer" named Kelly Blair, who later backed down on his accusation. There has never been a shred of tangible evidence against Bagwell. The "evidence" against him is purely speculation and discredited hearsay.
Is there any MLB player in the last 25 years that you would make such a bet about? I sure as hell wouldn't.
Bill Conlin I assume is who Walt was referring to.
Andy Pettitte? Good guy, True Yankee, etc.
I think this is what Gammons meant to write.
Bah, I hate it when people like Jack Morris and Jim Rice and Albert Belle sneak into the hall through a seperate wing.
At least Gammons voted for a lot of guys.
Well, that obviously means that he was clean.
Yeah -- like any whining spitballers and greenie/red juice users out there who might be arguing on the subject. As we all know, these things ain't cheatin'.
I understand how some voters feel that to vote for certain players sends the wrong values message to their children,
Oh my freakin' gawrsh, think of the children -- 'coz as we all know, pro athletes are the only role models kids should have.
and while I disagree on the concept of the “eye test,” I do so respectfully.
I see no reason to be respectful of rampant, bull-headed stupidity. And that includes Gammons voting for Jack Morris.
Ridiculous.
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