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Friday, December 27, 2013

Gammons: The Hall of Fame Debate; PEDs

For his next column, Gammons will exclaim, “Cameron is right,” leading the BTF site to implode.

Sheehan is right. These elections will forever be fractious until we come to grips with The Steroids Era, which despite the hours and money put in by Bud Selig, Manfred, et al to try to get the enablers and chemists that lie below the skin of the sport, we still don’t absolutely know still don’t exist. Again: not one of the 13 players suspended because of the Biogenesis lab actually tested position, and if one believes what those who should know have privately passed on, those who have tested positive in the last couple of years did so because they strayed from their professional trainers and chemical specialists.

Oh, we also have players who have tested positive for amphetamines. Are they now supposedly ineligible for Cooperstown? Greenies and beans were rampant in the Fifties, Sixties, Seventies and Eighties, eyesight’s were affected and the ability to ramp it up again helped career home run totals creep past 400 or 500 or 600. I love watching the grainy film of The Mick, head down, rounding the bases, or Don Larsen jumping into Yogi’s arms, but baseball was not played in a Franciscan ordinary; did the Giants really find an edge in the ’51 playoff?
The question was raised on MLB Radio about three managers being inducted into the Hall this summer and that no questions were raised about whether or not any of them won games using players who used PEDs. …

Racial discrimination is a far more serious blight than performance-enhancing drugs, and 21 years after Elijah (Pumpsie) Green broke the Red Sox color bar, owner Tom Yawkey was posthumously voted into the Hall of Fame, forgiven. A Boston street is named after him.

There are some who would argue that human beings who were cheated out of the opportunity to play in the major leagues represent a darker period than records that were shattered by cheaters, but we learned to live with it. The time has come when we have to figure what we can live with, and what we cannot.

JE (Jason Epstein) Posted: December 27, 2013 at 11:04 AM | 201 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: barry bonds, hall of fame, jackie robinson, jeff bagwell, mike piazza, roger clemens, steroid era, steroids

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   1. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 01:33 PM (#4624700)
I swear, Gammons is incapable of discussing this intelligently. On the one hand, it seems he wants PEDs out of the game. But on the other, he bends over backwards to not offend or alienate anyone. I suppose he's afraid of losing his sources for insider information.
   2. Srul Itza Posted: December 27, 2013 at 01:39 PM (#4624705)
The words you are looking for, Kevin, are nuance and perspective.

You might want to look them up.
   3. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 27, 2013 at 02:13 PM (#4624724)
I don't think there is anything unreasonable about wanting PEDs out of the game while at the same time believing the mainstream response to the issue is shrill and over the top.
   4. Joey B. is being stalked by a (Gonfa) loon Posted: December 27, 2013 at 02:15 PM (#4624725)
I could have sworn that this whole issued "jumped the shark" around five years ago!
   5. tfbg9 Posted: December 27, 2013 at 02:47 PM (#4624744)
I don't think there is anything unreasonable about wanting PEDs out of the game while at the same time believing the mainstream response to the issue is shrill and over the top.


Yes.
   6. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 03:22 PM (#4624760)
nuance and perspective.

You might want to look them up.


nu·ance (näns, ny-, n-äns, ny-)
n.
1. a subtle difference or distinction, as in meaning.
2. a slight variation in color or tone.


OK, that doesn't fit.

perspective [p??sp?kt?v]
n
1. a way of regarding situations, facts, etc., and judging their relative importance
2. the proper or accurate point of view or the ability to see it; objectivity try to get some perspective on your troubles
3. (Fine Arts & Visual Arts / Art Terms) the theory or art of suggesting three dimensions on a two-dimensional surface, in order to recreate the appearance and spatial relationships that objects or a scene in recession present to the eye
4. the appearance of objects, buildings, etc., relative to each other, as determined by their distance from the viewer, or the effects of this distance on their appearance
5. a view over some distance in space or time; vista; prospect
6. (Fine Arts & Visual Arts / Art Terms) a picture showing perspective


That doesn't fit either.

Gammons is trying to say steroids don't belong in the game while at the same time saying it's too hard to eliminate them so let's forget about it. I think the word you are looking for is this:

ap•a•thy (?æp ? ?i)

n., pl. -thies.
1. absence or suppression of passion, emotion, or excitement.
2. lack of interest in or concern for things that others find moving or exciting.


Yes, that will certainly help the game. A feeling of suppression of passion or concern towards baseball by the fans.



   7. Buck Coats Posted: December 27, 2013 at 03:24 PM (#4624761)
Again: not one of the 13 players suspended because of the Biogenesis lab actually tested [positive]


This is technically true, but only because the 3 that HAD already tested positive weren't re-suspended.

EDIT: Actually, it's not even technically true, right? Braun was suspended because of Biogenesis, and he tested positive...
   8. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 27, 2013 at 03:29 PM (#4624765)
Gammons is trying to say steroids don't belong in the game while at the same time saying it's too hard to eliminate them so let's forget about it.


Sometimes the cost of doing something is higher than the benefit of doing that thing. Some things can't be done reliably, even if we want them to be done. Life is not Black/White.

Recognizing these facts is both nuanced and perceptive.
   9. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 03:35 PM (#4624774)
And recognizing the fact that, if something is not done, baseball will slide down the same road that the NFL is currently sliding takes vision and integrity.

But maybe it takes nuance and perspective to effect baseball becomes just like football. No, more like apathy.

   10. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 27, 2013 at 03:45 PM (#4624781)
And recognizing the fact that, if something is not done, baseball will slide down the same road that the NFL is currently sliding takes vision and integrity.


Do you have anything to explain what this "terrible slide" will look like? Seriously what are you talking about? What do you think would happen if MLB stopped its witch hunt*, kept the testing as it is, and issued a statement that said "What happened in MLB regarding PEDs pre-CBA testing regime should be ignored as should innuendo and anything other than actual evidence of PED usage".

Would they start donning helmets and tackling each other on the field? What?

* The ARod "investigation" is in fact a Centaur hunt, but the basic idea is the same.
   11. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 03:53 PM (#4624786)
Do you have anything to explain what this "terrible slide" will look like?


Baseball will be played like softball instead of baseball (already happened but now seems to be receding somewhat), players will be getting caught in sting operations (already happened and will happen more and more), will be blackmailed by drug dealers, stories of serious adverse health effects will begin to appear looks to be happening but hard to prove cause and effect), as technology advances, baseball will evolve away more and more from the game we are familiar with into something more akin to football and NASCAR.

In effect, baseball will lose its soul and will no longer be interesting to watch. It will go the way of boxing and horse racing.
   12. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 27, 2013 at 03:58 PM (#4624797)
#11. Many words and nothing like an actual description of what will happen, other than "like softball". Why on Earth does PEDs have that specific impact? Does it make the ball larger and softer? Does it make baseball players fatter, slower, and like beer more?

As for the rest, none of that has anything to do with the game of baseball. Because you know before PEDs no players had health or criminality issues.

And what on earth do you mean by "as technology advances"? Better drugs? Cyborg implants? And what actual impact (other than hand waving and doom saying) will it have?

The reason I am pushing is because you were so very clear in your condemnation, surely you have specific and obvious things in mind.
   13. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 04:13 PM (#4624806)
I'm not sure anything I say will move you because it seems you just don't give a crap.
   14. Srul Itza Posted: December 27, 2013 at 04:23 PM (#4624810)
Gammons is not talking about the future, he is talking about how we appraise the past. For which nuance and perspective is entirely appropriate.

Except for people like Kevin, who are incapable of either.
   15. AROM Posted: December 27, 2013 at 04:28 PM (#4624817)
baseball will evolve away more and more from the game we are familiar with into something more akin to football and NASCAR.


NASCAR? I was unaware that drugs that build muscle can help your car drive faster.
   16. Bob Tufts Posted: December 27, 2013 at 04:36 PM (#4624820)
AROM, surely NASCAR drivers could profit from using ADD drugs to enhance focus...

   17. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 04:51 PM (#4624825)
Gammons is not talking about the future, he is talking about how we appraise the past.


NASCAR? I was unaware that drugs that build muscle can help your car drive faster.


AROM, surely NASCAR drivers could profit from using ADD drugs to enhance focus...


Baseball Think Factory.

What's the definition for this? I can't find the word that means something or someone who claims what he is exactly the opposite of?
   18. staring out the window and waiting for fenderbelly Posted: December 27, 2013 at 04:59 PM (#4624833)
I know this is not the right thread. I don't care. Shin-Soo Choo has the most magnificent hair that I have ever seen at his press conference right now.
   19. Bob Tufts Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:09 PM (#4624838)
What's the definition for this? I can't find the word that means something or someone who claims what he is exactly the opposite of?


NASCAR bans the use of ADHD drugs without a proper prescription, just like MLB. AJ Allmendinger's was suspended in 2012 for use, as adderall has been shown to improve cognitive abilities in numerous scientific studies.
   20. alilisd Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:10 PM (#4624839)
Gammons is trying to say steroids don't belong in the game while at the same time saying it's too hard to eliminate them so let's forget about it.


Really? I don't get that at all. I'm pretty sure what he said was they were a part of the game, and not banned, prior to 2005; therefore, let's get past it and elect those great players who were part of that era, regardless of whether they used something which was not banned at the time they used it.
   21. alilisd Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4624840)
Gammons is not talking about the future, he is talking about how we appraise the past. For which nuance and perspective is entirely appropriate.


Yep.
   22. alilisd Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:12 PM (#4624841)
Shin-Soo Choo has the most magnificent hair that I have ever seen at his press conference right now.


Shin Soo Choo might be a werewolf.
   23. Srul Itza Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:14 PM (#4624842)
In addition to lacking nuance and perspective, Corporal Kevin also grades low on reading comprehension.
   24. ...and Toronto selects: Troy Tulowitzki Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:22 PM (#4624846)
Except for people like Kevin, who are incapable of either.

Is this the Kevin who was a Red Sox fan who disappeared/was banned from Primer for years?
   25. Hang down your head, Tom Foley Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:28 PM (#4624848)
I know this is not the right thread. I don't care. Shin-Soo Choo has the most magnificent hair that I have ever seen at his press conference right now.
HEDs will keep him out of the Hall of Fame.
   26. Sunday silence Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:41 PM (#4624858)
Racial discrimination is a far more serious blight than performance-enhancing drugs, and 21 years after Elijah (Pumpsie) Green broke the Red Sox color bar, owner Tom Yawkey was posthumously voted into the Hall of Fame, forgiven. A Boston street is named after him.


But doesnt this argument run into the very same problem as the Roids-Greenies-Stealing signs argument?

I.e. if we hate Yawkey so much, then what about Cap Anson? And what about Ty Cobb? even Bob Feller said some unpleasant things. There's no real limit to how far you can take this. SImilar (or same?) as the argument that players were taking Greenies for a million years...

which is not to say I disagree with the thrust of the excerpt. Just having to do with that part of the argument.
   27. Jose Can Still Seabiscuit Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:44 PM (#4624860)
I.e. if we hate Yawkey so much, then what about Cap Anson? And what about Ty Cobb? even Bob Feller said some unpleasant things. There's no real limit to how far you can take this. SImilar (or same?) as the argument that players were taking Greenies for a million years...


I've used a variant of Gammons' argument myself many times. It's not that Gammons is saying guys like Cobb or Anson should not be in the Hall but basically it is a recognition of the fact that until the last ten years the BBWAA has NEVER used the integrity clause despite some truly reprehensible behavior.

The counterargument of course is Jackson/Rose but I would suggest that in that case the BBWAA was stripped of the opportunity to use it there.
   28. Famous Original Joe C Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:47 PM (#4624861)
Is this the Kevin who was a Red Sox fan who disappeared/was banned from Primer for years?


Yep - IOW, don't waste your energy.
   29. Juan Uribe Marching and Chowder Society Posted: December 27, 2013 at 05:47 PM (#4624862)
The use of the term PED implies a witch hunt. We don't know how or whether or to what extent these drugs "enhance performance," but we'll go ahead and call them PEDs.

Jackson and Rose should be in. They're more famous then Rube Waddell, and he's in.
   30. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 27, 2013 at 06:13 PM (#4624875)
I'm not sure anything I say will move you because it seems you just don't give a crap.


I am interested in how exactly PEDs turn Baseball into ... whatever. What is the mechanism? What are the steps?

Again I ask because you sounded so very sure, which speaks to either a purely emotional argument or one with a wealth of specifics behind it. Andy has an emotional opinion of PEDs and I respect that, it is perfectly legitimate. I am trying to find out what your actual position is, stripped of hyperbole and hand waving.

I don't expect to convince you or to be convinced by you (anyone going into an internet discussion with that as a goal is a disappointed idiot IMO), I am seeking understanding.
   31. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:08 PM (#4624897)
@30 - Bitter Mouse - Just let it go. The "steroids will create a terrible slide" adherents know they are right. They just know it. PED's made average college players into 15 million a year major leaguers, they made weaklings, superhero's and guys who couldn't hit a lick darn near hit .400. Mark McGwire? He couldn't hit a home run to save his life as a rookie - then just look what happened. Barry Bonds, a scrub on the Pirates for years… Oh wait…

Greatest thing is, you don't even have to work out. You take them and wake up huge. No insane workout regiment required. No hours in the weight room and cage. No obsession with becoming better just instant pro juice. I swear purity of the game has been tarnished forever!

   32. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:09 PM (#4624898)
For all the preaching about cheating, no one has differentiated one form of cheating from another. A splitter killed a batter,


Oh, brother....

I guess Gammons means a spitter, but the pitch that killed Ray Chapman was an inside fastball that Chapman leaned into in the late afternoon shadows of the Polo Grounds.
   33. alilisd Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:20 PM (#4624903)
We don't know how or whether or to what extent these drugs "enhance performance," but we'll go ahead and call them PEDs.


Perhaps you don't know how or whether they do, but if so, it's only due to willful ignorance. There are decades of history of AAS use in both professional sports and in the Olympics, which are now, essentially, professional sports as well. The mechanisms by which AAS enahance sports performance are well documented in both medical studies and in news articles, personal anecdotes, books and articles, of both athletes and trainers/coaches. No, there is no well documented means of determining the extent to which they help, but that they do and how they do is well documented.
   34. alilisd Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:21 PM (#4624905)
HEDs will keep him out of the Hall of Fame.


Clearly someone who calls themselves "Hang down your head, Tom Foley" is simply jealous. :-)
   35. AROM Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:22 PM (#4624907)
Just checked the Neyer/James guide to pitchers. Mays himself said it was a fastball. Not sure if he even threw a splitter, the book says he threw fastball/curve. Being a submariner probably didn't help Chapman's view either.
   36. Bitter Mouse Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:29 PM (#4624910)
@30 - Bitter Mouse - Just let it go.


I don't expect to get an actual answer from him, I just want to push back on the hysterical nonsense once in a while. It is OK to be against PEDs and even be against a known PED user in the hall, but claims of OMG the END IS NEAR! are just silly.

It is too bad he fled, because my next question is, even assuming he is correct what are his prescription for preventing the oncoming disaster? If teh steroid is causing doom, well what can prevent that doom?
   37. Ray (RDP) Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:40 PM (#4624916)
I could have sworn that this whole issued "jumped the shark" around five years ago!


It has. The Hall of Fame is now a joke and will be for the next generation or two at a minimum, probably forever. Did you miss that?

Because the HOF board did not act to take the guns out of the writers' hands -- did not act when it was clear that the writers had turned their guns on the HOF -- the institution has been irreparably harmed for any purpose other than as a baseball museum.
   38. Morty Causa Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:44 PM (#4624919)
Someone I know who seriously follows tennis told me that tennis players are subject to surprise testing at any time anywhere. Of course, that would have to be negotiated with the union. How's it done with the Olympics and all that "amateur" stuff in between?
   39. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:47 PM (#4624922)
I keep waiting for the wave of health issues due to peds

I was told that this would happen because 'millions of high schoolers' were using in the 90's in an effort to emulate baseball players.

it's almost 20 years later. something should be happening. some health impact.

I am not reading about 34 year old u.s. males having some common malady. other than being poor dressers.
   40. Srul Itza Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:47 PM (#4624924)
I could have sworn that this whole issued "jumped the shark" around five years ago!




I could have sworn "jumped the shark" jumped the shark around ten years ago.
   41. Srul Itza Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:49 PM (#4624926)
I keep waiting for the wave of health issues due to peds


Thing is, all the guys who took peds are suffering so much from concussions, they forgot they took peds, so nobody is able to track it.
   42. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:50 PM (#4624927)
I don't expect to get an actual answer from him, I just want to push back on the hysterical nonsense once in a while.


So, you think the obliteration of Maris' record by three different people in the span of three years was just a minor curiosity then, not worthy of any further thought?
   43. cardsfanboy Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:55 PM (#4624930)
So, you think the obliteration of Maris' record by three different people in the span of three years was just a minor curiosity then, not worthy of any further thought?


So it's all about the records for you? Isn't that very myopic? Shouldn't there be more?
   44. Bug Selig Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:55 PM (#4624931)
The part that is truly mind-boggling is the "like the NFL" angle. WTF? How long would it take Bud to accept that deal?

"Hey, Bud. If you'd just shut your pee-hole and stop doing everything you can to damage the marketing of your product, you'll be dragged down the slippery slope to unprecedented wealth and popularity."

"Wait - what?"

"Does even the most pant-pissing moron think that baseball has 1/10th the rate of PED usage of football? The difference is, Roger Goodell has the sense to shut his friggin' yap and let the product sell itself. When a guy pops, he gets suspended, but he's smart enough not to make that the storyline."

"But the horse guy and the Jew offended me."

"It isn't about you."

"Security!"

Sorry - guess imaginary Bud isn't any smarter than real Bud.
   45. JJ1986 Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:58 PM (#4624934)
So, you think the obliteration of Maris' record by three different people in the span of three years was just a minor curiosity then, not worthy of any further thought?


I still remember when the 1998 home run chase ruined baseball. The game still hasn't recovered.
   46. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: December 27, 2013 at 07:59 PM (#4624935)
roger maris had a 'record' through a freakish confluence of events.

to h8ll with roger maris already
   47. Sunday silence Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:04 PM (#4624941)

So, you think the obliteration of Maris' record by three different people in the span of three years was just a minor curiosity then, not worthy of any further thought?


That's the OMG the End is Near, part? Geez I thought something really bad was going to happen to MLB?
   48. Sunday silence Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:10 PM (#4624944)

I've used a variant of Gammons' argument myself many times. It's not that Gammons is saying guys like Cobb or Anson should not be in the Hall but basically it is a recognition of the fact that until the last ten years the BBWAA has NEVER used the integrity clause despite some truly reprehensible behavior.


I admit I did not read the article and perhaps that is what he is saying and what you say does make sense. But I dont see the need to single out Yawkey there. SOmeone HAS TO BE the last one to adopt integration. It doesnt make Yawkey a bad person, it makes him slow to adapt, it makes him perhaps narrow minded, but none of that's a crime. It also means the people who initiated integration are commendable. That's why they're commendable they went above and beyond. And the "slow to integrate" are narrow minded, they're not morally bankrupt.

Well, maybe they were, but you'd have to make that case as being more than slow to integrate.
   49. Sunday silence Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:17 PM (#4624948)
No, there is no well documented means of determining the extent to which they help, but that they do and how they do is well documented.


That's pretty much what Juan Uribe said. Without having much of an idea of the quantitative effects of such, everything can be lumped in as a PED. Eyeglasses, diabetes medicine, a batting glove. Do you not see a problem there?

The fact that you had to simply reiterate his argument using different words, makes me doubt you have very much more to say about it but go ahead...
   50. Infinite Joost (Voxter) Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:21 PM (#4624952)
So, you think the obliteration of Maris' record by three different people in the span of three years was just a minor curiosity then, not worthy of any further thought?


And you think that's entirely down to steroids? Pfft.
   51. cardsfanboy Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:25 PM (#4624953)
What other records have been ruined.... the single season strikeout(batting) record has been beaten 16 times since 2008. Career saves record twice, single season save record was broken only once, but three other times someone has come within 2 saves of the record. The rField record was beaten twice last year(andrelton Simmons and Gerardo Parra), with a third guy(Manny Machado) only falling one behind.
   52. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:29 PM (#4624954)
That's the OMG the End is Near, part?


Just the beginning, if you have your way.

And for what? Nothing really, except perhaps transient and meaningless records that have a bit of wow! factor attached to them, until they get obliterated by somebody else that has access to the next wave of technology.

So baseball becomes less and less a game of human against human and more of a technology war, like car racing or surfing.
   53. Morty Causa Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:35 PM (#4624956)
Too, there are people on record (like Bill Veeck) who found Yawkey laudable, a man of integrity. I doubt that Ted Williams would have felt such a real bond with someone who was a ravening racist. It would have been wonderful if Yawkey had been the Branch Rickey of the American League, and could have carried it off. Yawkey, looking at where he and his team were situated, though, didn't see that as possible, nor was he inclined to probably. He, if anything, saw himself as caught between the rock and the hard place. He was the owner and steward of a team and an organization that was threatening to disintegrate into nothing on him. As he saw it, racial turmoil would be the coup de grace. Of course, many who didn't have to put up any actual money or risk an investment are free to act bold with impunity. It's easy to tell someone how he should play his hand when your poke isn't in the pot. Monday-Morning-Quarterbacking is 20/20, and playing poker with toothpicks costs nothing.
   54. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:47 PM (#4624960)
What other records have been ruined


Bonds obliterated Williams OB% record. He also beat Ruth's SLG%, though not as impressively. He beat Ruth's OB+Slg twice. Bonds broke Ruth's Base on Balls record by 52(!). Bonds has the top 3 adjusted OPS+ records. And he did all this after the age of 35 (he must have some super duper secret workout regimen).

So the records become meaningless, just transient datapoints on a technology advancement spectrum. And for what? Does it make the game better? No, it makes it worse. Does it advance the sense of fair competition, enhancing a level playing field? No, it does just the opposite. Does it serve the interests of the players? No, it does just the opposite. Is it good for the owners? No, it's a huge public relations and legal nightmare for the owners. Do the fans like it? Apparently not, since the fans boo the #### out of the users every chance they get. How do the writers feel about it? Apparently they don't like it much either since the writers refuse to admit anyone who used in the HoF.
   55. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 08:56 PM (#4624965)
I doubt that Ted Williams would have felt such a real bond with someone who was a ravening racist.


I really don't think of Yawkey as a ravening (sic?) racist. Marge Schott would probably fit that description better. Yawkey was typical of the genteel racism of the south. He treated the inequity with benign neglect. If he had racists in his front office, well, so what? They were nice to children and went to church on Sunday. Failure to develop black players? We're trying but we just haven't found any who would fit in with our ballclub. What about Jackie Robinson? We tried him out but he didn't impress. Willie Mays? He was too young to take a risk on. Hank Aaron? He had a bad habit of holding his hands backwards on the bat. And besides, we already had a pretty good team. There just aren't any spots open at the moment. But we're trying!
   56. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 09:01 PM (#4624968)
PED's made average college players into 15 million a year major leaguers,

Braun

they made weaklings, superhero's

Canseco

guys who couldn't hit a lick darn near hit .400.

Melky

   57. cardsfanboy Posted: December 27, 2013 at 09:05 PM (#4624972)
I don't get the point about the record being obliterated. Who cares. Ruth and the 1930's destroyed the records in no way that the 2000's. Pitching records outside of reliever records, will never get approached again...why does it matter though?

If no record ever gets broken or if everyone gets broken, it doesn't matter. You can make any argument that you want for or against peds, the second you talk about records you bury your point in trivial crap. And of course you have never answered the question(as usual)

I am trying to find out what your actual position is, stripped of hyperbole and hand waving.


   58. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: December 27, 2013 at 09:11 PM (#4624975)
Publius - You've been tagged out. Time to pick up the helmet and leave the field.
   59. Bob Tufts Posted: December 27, 2013 at 09:15 PM (#4624977)
Do the fans like it? Apparently not, since the fans boo the #### out of the users every chance they get.


The fans are so turned off by steroid usage that they pay extremely high ticket prices, quaff $10 beer at the ballpark and boo players that they suspect or have been suspended for illegal PED use. They watch on television or portable devices, causing TV deals to reach record numbers. Until fans stay away, this argument doesn't fly.

Ironically, annual HOF attendance is dropping since the steroid kerfuffle started....from 400,000 to 280,000.

   60. Tim D Posted: December 27, 2013 at 09:22 PM (#4624979)
Any notion that baseball is, could be or should be immune from improving technology is an asinine delusion. Think batting averages would have been so high in the 20s and 30s if the defenders had gloves that were worth a $hit? Think Ruth would have liked body armor for his right elbow so he could lean out over the plate? Ruth played all day games against all white guys when a "long" road trip was a train to Chicago or St. Louis. Maris played with black and latin players, night baseball and jet lag but he had greenies. Bonds, McGwire and Sosa played against Japanese and Koreans and pitchers who took steroids but also took them themselves.

Baseball players will always seek an an edge. Always have, always will, especially for $20M a year.

It is up to management to define what edges are proper and what are not.

Management dragged its feet on doing anything about PEDs, until it became obvious that despite the fact they were making a lot of money, public opinion and the US Congress were strongly against them.

Management has since gone out of its way to try and treat the "guilty" players as ruthlessly as possible, restrained only by the MLBPA.

As with all management vs. MLBPA issues, the great majority of the neanderthal sports "journalism" world as sided strongly with management and against the "guilty" players.

The BBWAA has never used the character issue re the HOF, and whenever the character issue was trotted out, say for Joe Jackson or Pete Rose, the bulk of the BBWAA screamed like a gut-shot panther and immediately said "Ty Cobb." Suddenly with PEDs they are all ready to invoke the morals clause. Tom Yawkey is an example of how, over time, exceptions have been made with people who did and said some pretty lousy things. In time the same exceptions will occur for people like Bonds and Clemens who were undoubted HOFrs before they (allegedly) used. Guys like McGwire and Sosa, who knows. But a HOF w/out Mark McGwire is no greater crime than one w/out Alan Trammell or Tim Raines.

We need reasonable rules regarding PEDs, and we need to resist the urge to "fix" the problem. It cannot be fixed, only controlled. When you don't control you get 1998. As for the HOF, time will figure this out. Don't try to rush it. Gammons gets points in my book for making at least some argument in favor of the "guilty" when they are more or less excoriated by everyone. He has a pretty balanced point of view and I think it is well thought out.

   61. puck Posted: December 27, 2013 at 09:24 PM (#4624981)
I keep waiting for the wave of health issues due to peds

I was told that this would happen because 'millions of high schoolers' were using in the 90's in an effort to emulate baseball players.

Do PEDs cause diabetes?
   62. cardsfanboy Posted: December 27, 2013 at 09:40 PM (#4624987)
The BBWAA has never used the character issue re the HOF, and whenever the character issue was trotted out, say for Joe Jackson or Pete Rose, the bulk of the BBWAA screamed like a gut-shot panther and immediately said "Ty Cobb." Suddenly with PEDs they are all ready to invoke the morals clause


I disagree with this bbtf meme. I absolutely think Dick Allen or a few others were hurt by the character clause, also think that guys like Morris are being inadvertently helped by the character clause. Just like everything else, there isn't one thing that moves a completely one way or the other over the line, but I do think it has affected a percentage of the voters in the past.

(not that I disagree with your entire point, I'm just not sold on the myth that the character clause hasn't figured into a few candidacies over the year..I just think that the character clause is whatever the writers want it to be.)
   63. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 27, 2013 at 09:46 PM (#4624988)
Do the fans like it? Apparently not, since the fans boo the #### out of the users every chance they get.

Close. They boo the #### out of the well-known users that are playing against their team every chance they get.
   64. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 09:56 PM (#4624990)
We need reasonable rules regarding PEDs, and we need to resist the urge to "fix" the problem. It cannot be fixed, only controlled.


Yawn. When Congress removes regulatory authority from the FDA and gives it to MLB, let me know.
   65. AROM Posted: December 27, 2013 at 10:07 PM (#4624992)
The Boston Braves signed Sam Jethroe, a 33 year old rookie, in 1950. He was a damn good player and would be better known had he been allowed to start his career earlier. I'm not sure if he was the first black player in Boston but certainly among the first, 9 years before the Red Sox. So I don't buy any excuse of the city not being ready for integration on the field.

But whatever variety of racist Yawkey may have been, that's not the reason his HOF induction is a joke. He was a spoiled, no talent, lucky rich kid. He inherited money at age 30, bought a team, owned them for over 40 years, spent heavily to bring in stars, and all he had to show for it was 3 World Series, each of which his team lost. Most of the time they didn't contend, because Yawkey had no clue how to find competent men to run his team.
   66. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: December 27, 2013 at 10:16 PM (#4624995)
PED's made average college players into 15 million a year major leaguers,

Braun


Yep, your average college player hits for an 1100 OPS over 3 years. Cue Sad Trombone.
   67. Tulo's Fishy Mullet (mrams) Posted: December 27, 2013 at 10:24 PM (#4624997)
I am not reading about 34 year old u.s. males having some common malady. other than being poor dresser


applause
   68. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 27, 2013 at 10:29 PM (#4625001)
I'm not totally discounting the possibility that a few unforgiving types may have held Allen's crankyness against him. I think his failure to garner more support had more to do with his lifetime numbers coming up short. Under 400 HR, sub .300 BA. Of course he had the misfortune of playing in the worse hitting environment since the deadball era. He basically had the same OPS+ as Hank Greenberg, 156-158 for Hank, yet his raw OPS was 100 pts. lower.
The thing I don't understand, is why isn't he getting any love from the Veterans committee. Does he even get consideration?
   69. T.J. Posted: December 27, 2013 at 10:31 PM (#4625002)
I keep waiting for the wave of health issues due to peds

I was told that this would happen because 'millions of high schoolers' were using in the 90's in an effort to emulate baseball players.

it's almost 20 years later. something should be happening. some health impact.

Just like we were promised/threatened with microencephalic crack babies. Scare tactics: "Won't anyone think of the children?"
   70. Tim D Posted: December 27, 2013 at 10:31 PM (#4625003)
Dick Allen may have been hurt by the character clause but nobody ever talked about it. And it wasn't so much character as it was flat-out racism: he didn't get all weepy-eyed about playing the white man's game. Anyway Allen was hurt more by his failure to hit 400 HRs, failure to hit .300, only three 100 RBI seasons, blah, blah, blah. And Jim Rice is in because he played in Boston. Allen was leaps and bounds a better hitter.
   71. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 10:51 PM (#4625005)
So I don't buy any excuse of the city not being ready for integration on the field.


This is, of course, true. If St. Louis was ready, then certainly Boston was.

But whatever variety of racist Yawkey may have been, that's not the reason his HOF induction is a joke. He was a spoiled, no talent, lucky rich kid. He inherited money at age 30, bought a team, owned them for over 40 years, spent heavily to bring in stars, and all he had to show for it was 3 World Series, each of which his team lost. Most of the time they didn't contend, because Yawkey had no clue how to find competent men to run his team.


While the overall content here is generally correct, let me make some minor corrections:

When Yawkey owned the team, they generally did contend. He picked them up in '33 and they started to get immediately better, mostly because he was willing to spend his money on established stars. He went out and got Jimmy Foxx and Lefty Grove and Doc Cramer right away. He hired an ex-umpire named Billy Evans to head their farm system and they started churning out excellent players one after the other: Doerr, Dimaggio, Pesky- and Williams. There was a period from the mid fifties to the mid sixties where they bobbed around from average to mediocre, and even slipped ina bad year here and there- but generally they had a good team when Yawkey owned them.

Yawkey also hired several very capable baseball men- the aforementioned Evans, Joe Cronin, Dick O'Connell and Dick Williams. The farm system in the sixties and seventies was extremely productive.

You COULD make a case for Yawkey for HoF based on his decision to renovate Fenway rather than build a new park. He could have done either and chose the former. If he had done the latter, there would be no Fenway today, maybe instead one of those godawful flying saucer stadiums, built in Burlington or Framingham or somewhere really stupid. So he deserves credit for that.

But as far as maximizing his talent and resources and giving the team a chance to go all the way, I think he deserves a C-. If he had just signed Robinson or Mays, especially Robinson, I think, would have changed everything for him.



   72. Publius Publicola Posted: December 27, 2013 at 10:55 PM (#4625007)
Yep, your average college player hits for an 1100 OPS over 3 years. Cue Sad Trombone.


Indeed. He was cheating then too.
   73. Doris from Rego Park Posted: December 28, 2013 at 12:36 AM (#4625033)
You COULD make a case for Yawkey for HoF based on his decision to renovate Fenway rather than build a new park. He could have done either and chose the former.
   74. Sunday silence Posted: December 28, 2013 at 01:58 AM (#4625050)
I don't get the point about the record being obliterated. Who cares. Ruth and the 1930's destroyed the records in no way that the 2000's. Pitching records outside of reliever records, will never get approached again...why does it matter though?

If no record ever gets broken or if everyone gets broken, it doesn't matter. You can make any argument that you want for or against peds, the second you talk about records you bury your point in trivial crap. And of course you have never answered the question(as usual)


I pretty much agree with this. I am not saying PEDs dont matter; but if record breaking is the rationale you're just being ridiculous. The issue of a level playing field is much more serious and I agree that PEDs are a problem.

BUt let's face it, this problem is not going away overnight and it's not simply about Congress giving jurisdiction to someone. Real life is far more complicated. It's an ongoing battle between chemists on both sides. This war might never end. What then? I guess you would have to give up baseball and find some other message board to rant on.

What cardsfan and others are pointing out is this "sky is falling" attitude is just over the top. We've already seen baseball with vast amounts of PEDs. And it there was a lot of HRs; the Yankees won a lot of world series, and guys were really large and it was still pretty interesting all in all.

There is such a thing as market economics, and if things were really as publius says they are then presumably people would vote with their pocketbooks and walk away. I dont think that will happen soon.
   75. Walt Davis Posted: December 28, 2013 at 02:36 AM (#4625055)
Too much to catch up with so pardon if some of this has been addressed but ... from all the way back in the excerpt:

These elections will forever be fractious

It's not clear what this means. Any division is within the BBWAA, not between the HoF and the BBWAA or, necessarily, the HoF and the fans. If the BBWAA wants to get into a little internal war over this, be my guest.

until we come to grips with The Steroids Era

Again, which "we"? The BBWAA seems to have "come to grips" with the steroids era just fine. I don't like their decision but McGwire has never received even 25% of the vote. He is therefore less fractious than Lee Smith. Palmeiro and Sosa will soon be gone altogether and Bonds/Clemens appear to be making no progress. Maybe, maybe, guys like Biggio, Bagwell and Piazza are taking longer than they should have under these circumstances but they're on pace for being inducted which suggests that at least some of the voters are distinguishing between "dirty, rotten cheaters that I don't like and broke a record or pointed their finger" and "dirty rotten cheaters I don't really care about."

Maybe the early results are misleading and Bonds/Clemens will make some real progress this year. Or maybe, like gay marriage, acceptance of Bonds/Clemens will sweep across the BBWAA after it's discovered that they're married.

Which, when you get down to it, puts the ball back in the HoF's court where the BBWAA's Wing of Whiners insists it should be. It is pretty clear that if the HoF wants Bonds/Clemens in the HoF, the HoF is going to have to put them in there themselves.

   76. alilisd Posted: December 28, 2013 at 02:39 AM (#4625056)
Sunday, that is not at all what he said. The "how" they work he claimed was unknown. It is not. It is well documented they allow athletes to train at higher intensities and with greater frequency while still recovering. How anyone could claim this does not improve performance is beyond me. They also allow for muscle to be added much more easily, and if someone doesn't understand how being stronger, faster, and more explosive, all of which are accomplished through greater muscle accompanied by adequate training, they're lost. They also preserve muscle, are muscle sparing, when dieting. This is a huge edge to athletes who compete in weight classes.

The "whether" they work is clearly evident in the medals won and records set by Soviet Bloc athletes of the 60's and 70's. By numerous first hand testimonials of athletes for over half a century. Again, denying this is simply willful ignorance.

Where I see a problem is when someone tries to equate one of the most powerful hormones humans produce to a batting glove.
   77. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 28, 2013 at 08:52 AM (#4625077)
You COULD make a case for Yawkey for HoF based on his decision to renovate Fenway rather than build a new park.

Correct me if I'm mistaken, but IIRC Yawkey was asking for a new ballpark as early as the late 50's or early 60's, and it was only after he was repeatedly rebuffed that he made the belated 1976 renovations. And of course the major renovations of recent years came long after Yawkey's death.

---------------------------------------------

Maybe the early results are misleading and Bonds/Clemens will make some real progress this year. Or maybe, like gay marriage, acceptance of Bonds/Clemens will sweep across the BBWAA after it's discovered that they're married.

I KNEW IT!!!!
   78. Non-Youkilidian Geometry Posted: December 28, 2013 at 09:29 AM (#4625080)
Indeed. He was cheating then too.


Your original claim was that Braun was an average player who blossomed into an MLB star due to PEDs. When confronted with the fact that he was actually a star in college, your response was to move the goalposts and claim that he must have also been taking PEDs in college.

Braun was a high school superstar (team MVP and school career HR record holder) who made Baseball America's pre-draft top 100 list. He was an immediate success as a college player, and was named BA's "National Freshman of the Year". There was never a time when Braun did not appear to be extremely good at playing baseball.

In short, you could not have picked a worse example to support your argument.
   79. EddieA Posted: December 28, 2013 at 10:48 AM (#4625091)
There was never a time when Braun did not appear to be extremely good at playing baseball.


except when he was playing 3rd base.
   80. AJMcCringleberry Posted: December 28, 2013 at 10:57 AM (#4625094)
There was never a time when Braun did not appear to be extremely good at playing baseball.

Clearly he's been taking steroids since he was born.
   81. McCoy Posted: December 28, 2013 at 11:21 AM (#4625101)
I doubt that Ted Williams would have felt such a real bond with someone who was a ravening racist.

Ted later in life regretted not stepping up while he was playing and telling Yawkey to sign black ballplayers. At the time he felt it wasn't his place to tell the owner of the team how to run his business.

Yawkey was old school plantation racist and a good many of his executives running the team were racist as well.
   82. KT's Pot Arb Posted: December 28, 2013 at 11:56 AM (#4625124)
So, you think the obliteration of Maris' record by three different people in the span of three years was just a minor curiosity then, not worthy of any further thought?


MLB single season HR record holders
5 - George Hall 1878
9 - Charley Jones 1879
14 - Harry Stovey 1883
27 - Ned Williamson 1884
29 - Babe Ruth 1919
54 - Babe Ruth 1920
59 - Babe Ruth 1921
60 - Babe Ruth 1927
61 - Roger Maris 1961
70 - Mark McGwire 1998
73 - Barry Bonds 2001

Ned Williamson and I still await the investigation of Babe Ruth and his ilk! Their desecration of the record books and damage it caused MLB baseball has lasted for over 80 years.

The next time an all-time baseball record is broken I suggest the player be instantly banned for life, due to the horrific problems that new records cause.
   83. Eddo Posted: December 28, 2013 at 12:15 PM (#4625133)
That's pretty much what Juan Uribe said.

Hang on guys, maybe Kevin's got a point. If Juan Uribe can be a voice of reason, I feel the end truly is near.
   84. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 28, 2013 at 12:31 PM (#4625145)
I've used a variant of Gammons' argument myself many times. It's not that Gammons is saying guys like Cobb or Anson should not be in the Hall but basically it is a recognition of the fact that until the last ten years the BBWAA has NEVER used the integrity clause despite some truly reprehensible behavior.


Only when it became a means of pissing on Barry Bonds, who was mean to them and didn't give good interview-head. This entire debacle is because the BBWAA is still angry that Bonds didn't ask them to prom.

The counterargument of course is Jackson/Rose but I would suggest that in that case the BBWAA was stripped of the opportunity to use it there.


If MLB were to put Bonds and Clemens on the permanently ineligible list that would be a fair comparison. If MLB took Jackson or Rose off of the PI list they would be elected to the Hall the next year. They're not being punished by the writers for "integrity." They're being punished by baseball for betting as players.
   85. Jolly Old St. Nick Still Gags in October Posted: December 28, 2013 at 12:44 PM (#4625151)
If MLB took Jackson or Rose off of the PI list they would be elected to the Hall the next year.

And if I had some ham, I could make a ham sandwich, if only I had some bread.

Both in the case of Jackson/Rose and in the case of Bonds/etc., it's going to require a sea change of opinion to get any or all of those players into the HoF. In the case of Jackson/Rose, that sea change would also be required to get them off the PI list. It's not as if Selig is in possession of some goddam magic wand that would instantly transport Jackson/Rose into the plaque room in the next election after their reinstatement. By this time the majority of writers are just as sick of Rose as they are of Bonds, and they'd be no more forgiving of Rose's gambling than they are of Bonds's steroid use.
   86. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 28, 2013 at 12:48 PM (#4625153)
And if I had some ham, I could make a ham sandwich, if only I had some bread.


Jackson and Rose are not in the HOF because MLB refuses to let the BBWAA vote for them.

Clemens and Bonds are not in the HOF because the BBWAA are petty ########.
   87. Bob Tufts Posted: December 28, 2013 at 01:03 PM (#4625159)
and it is easier to indict a ham sandwich when it is made with dark bread as opposed to being white.....
   88. McCoy Posted: December 28, 2013 at 01:11 PM (#4625163)
Jackson and Rose are not in the HOF because MLB refuses to let the BBWAA vote for them.

Well, the writers did have a chance to vote for Jackson and they said no for over 50 years. Also the Hall said "no" not MLB.
   89. OCF Posted: December 28, 2013 at 01:19 PM (#4625171)
Joe Jackson was eligible for the Hall of Fame for about 50 years, and drew occasional stray votes. There was never any chance of him being elected, either by the writers or by the various Veteran's Committees. He only became ineligible for the Hall of Fame in Pete Rose's time. The rule against ineligible players was put in place to prevent the election of Rose; Jackson had already been fairly convincingly rejected.

There was no writer-voted MVP-like award in 1919, so tracking what would have happened with that vote, and how it would have been interpreted a year later, fall into the realm of pure speculation.

OK, Coke to McCoy.
   90. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 28, 2013 at 01:26 PM (#4625177)

and it is easier to indict a ham sandwich when it is made with dark bread as opposed to being white.


Well considering that since integration, the only baseball person who received a lifetime ban was the white bread Pete Rose. Other baseball people who were intermittently banned were George Steinbrenner, Willie Mays, Mickey Mantle, Ferguson Jenkins, Steve Howe, and Marge Schott, who ironically enough was banned for racism.
So you're basically just talking out of your ass.
   91. Publius Publicola Posted: December 28, 2013 at 01:27 PM (#4625178)
and it was only after he was repeatedly rebuffed that he made the belated 1976 renovations.


I was referring to the thirties renovations when The Wall was constructed, amongst other things.
   92. Publius Publicola Posted: December 28, 2013 at 01:34 PM (#4625182)
Braun was a high school superstar


Whoa! A high school superstar!

Then clearly he was destined to be an MVP. LOL.
   93. Yastrzemski in left. Posted: December 28, 2013 at 01:58 PM (#4625189)
Publius. It's just pathetic at this point.
   94. Sunday silence Posted: December 28, 2013 at 02:10 PM (#4625194)

Sunday, that is not at all what he said. The "how" they work he claimed was unknown. It is not. It is well documented they allow athletes to train at higher intensities and with greater frequency while still recovering. How anyone could claim this does not improve performance is beyond me. They also allow for muscle to be added much more easily, and if someone doesn't understand how being stronger, faster, and more explosive, all of which are accomplished through greater muscle accompanied by adequate training, they're lost. They also preserve muscle, are muscle sparing, when dieting. This is a huge edge to athletes who compete in weight classes.

The "whether" they work is clearly evident in the medals won and records set by Soviet Bloc athletes of the 60's and 70's. By numerous first hand testimonials of athletes for over half a century. Again, denying this is simply willful ignorance.


I agree with what you say here; but I think the point they were trying to make is how many HRs can you attribute to steroids? How many HRs would Sosa have hit if he werent on roids? Or Bonds?

Maybe that doesnt matter to you, and I guess that's a reasonable position, but you re-iterating the batting glove part makes me think you do care about HOW MUCH of an impact chemistry has had on the game.
   95. Publius Publicola Posted: December 28, 2013 at 02:13 PM (#4625197)
It's just pathetic at this point.


Agreed. So why do you persist?
   96. Rickey! In a van on 95 south... Posted: December 28, 2013 at 02:18 PM (#4625201)
It is well documented they allow athletes to train at higher intensities and with greater frequency while still recovering. How anyone could claim this does not improve performance is beyond me. They also allow for muscle to be added much more easily, and if someone doesn't understand how being stronger, faster, and more explosive, all of which are accomplished through greater muscle accompanied by adequate training, they're lost


And we should totally penalize professional athletes for training harder in order to get stronger and faster and perform at greater levels in their chosen sports...
   97. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: December 28, 2013 at 02:21 PM (#4625203)
So, a few comments:

On Perry. I am not fully decided whether I would have voted for Perry for the HOF. I am leaning no. But one thing is true about Perry: his use of the spitball did not induce other players to adopt it (as far as I am aware), in order to compete. And if it had, the long-term ramifications would have been merely that pitching numbers improved a bit and hitting numbers declined a bit. Unless spitballs lead to more HBPs, there would be no health issues at all.

Contrast that with PEDs, where players like Clemens and Bonds fed a general belief that you needed to use steroids in order to have any chance of competing at all, and in the process corrupted the entire sport. As a result, dozens (hundreds? thousands?) of players, at all levels of competition, ended up taking drugs with unknown health effects. Bonds, Clemens et al. certainly don't bear sole responsibility for that, but I am comfortable saying their share is enough to deny them my support for the Hall.

Now, greenies. That is a much harder issue, complicated by the fact that I am poorly informed on their use in the 50s-60s and later. Some thoughts:

1) "Pep pills" were a standby in many walks of life at that time. They were handed out to soldiers in WWII, for example. Whereas steroids were always treated as secret, exotic, and shady, amphetamines, though potentially dangerous, did not have the same stigma, akin to Red Bull today.
2) I am not sure how accurate the stories of greenies being freely available in clubhouses really is. If so, then it's clear that amphetamine use wasn't clandestine (one of the defining features of cheating), and if provided by teams, gives them an official imprimatur that to my mind reduces the culpability of players who did use them.
3) Mays used greenies, but to my knowledge his achievements weren't attributed to them anywhere near the extent that Bonds and McGwire's were to steroids. Thus, it would appear that his use of them was less corrupting to the sport overall than later PED users. That may be 'unfair' to the later users, but it is what it is.
4) If something is both open and ubiquitous, it is much harder to make an argument that it amounts to cheating. A corked bat is hidden and used surrepititiously, whereas the use of lighter bats is something everyone can see and is aware of. Greenies appear to have been both open and ubiquitous. Steroids were definitely used in secret. They may have been ubiquitous but we can't tell since they were largely used in secret. This lack of certainty is a further corrupting influence on the game.

So in those ways, it seems to me that steroid use can be distinguished from amphetamine use.

   98. Mickey Henry Mays Posted: December 28, 2013 at 02:31 PM (#4625205)
Just out of curiosity PP, what would you have MLB do besides what they're currently doing? Even allowing that we were heading for your doomsday scenario had we not put the brakes on (or are you saying we didn't), what else should we be doing? Do you believe MLB should take actions retroactively? It sounds like you want certain records stricken from the books; but which ones? How do we determine which ones are tainted. How should we treat the opposite? Should Pedro Martinez get extra credit for setting the all-time ERA+ record for being a clean player.
I admit that I see these records askew, but I've made peace with it by putting it in perspective. What else ya gonna do?
   99. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: December 28, 2013 at 02:33 PM (#4625206)
And we should totally penalize professional athletes for training harder in order to get stronger and faster and perform at greater levels in their chosen sports...

So when Ben Johnson had his 1988 Olympic 100m gold medal taken away because he roided, that was "penalizing him for training harder" than the other competitors.(*)

Got it.

Grow up, fanboys.

(*) This meme of relatively recent vintage is right up there in saber silliness with "the next good ______ team" and "players with poor mental makeup get weeded out in the minors."
   100. Publius Publicola Posted: December 28, 2013 at 02:35 PM (#4625207)
Just out of curiosity PP, what would you have MLB do besides what they're currently doing?


Penalize franchises as well. For instance, if a player is caught, the lost wages should go to somewhere else, not back to the team coffers, perhaps some to the Union pension, some to defray costs of testing. I would also take away a draft pick or apply some other penalty that will cause a GM to think twice before signing a player who's a risk. Really, it's everyone's problem, not just the players. Everyone should be equally responsible, and held equally accountable, from the players all the way on up to the owners.
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