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Saturday, August 11, 2012

Gene Collier: Baseball Hall of Fame means more than just statistics

Brother Collier…been saving this one up.

Plenty of voters I have great respect for are willing to vote for Barry, and that’s their prerogative. But it’s not just the vote, it’s the message. A vote for Barry tells baseball’s subsequent generations, “Look, we don’t care what you do, who you offend, what drugs you take, who you send to prison, what you’re convicted of, whose breasts you allegedly threaten to slice, whose head you allegedly threaten to chop off or in what ditch you allegedly threaten to throw the remains. Just hit, baby. Hit ‘em long.”

Is that the game you want?

Was that the game Groat and Maz played, the game Aaron and Ruth played?

Is that the game Neil Walker and Andrew McCutchen play?

I don’t think so.

Repoz Posted: August 11, 2012 at 06:54 AM | 23 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: hof

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   1. Bob Tufts Posted: August 11, 2012 at 10:25 AM (#4206065)
This is Collier's audience - sentence taken from the comments:

The players that should be complaining are the one's that didn't use PHD's

   2. vortex of dissipation Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:05 PM (#4206128)
The players that should be complaining are the one's that didn't use PHD's


Well, the other players are obviously smarter, but I don't know if that's cheating.
   3. Joyful Calculus Instructor Posted: August 11, 2012 at 12:37 PM (#4206152)
what you’re convicted of, whose breasts you allegedly threaten to slice, whose head you allegedly threaten to chop off or in what ditch you allegedly threaten to throw the remains.


Well, Kirby Puckett is in the Hall of Fame, so...
   4. JJ1986 Posted: August 11, 2012 at 01:22 PM (#4206195)
This article begins with the premise that some people think Dick Groat should be a Hall of Famer. I didn't read past that.
   5. cardsfanboy Posted: August 11, 2012 at 01:44 PM (#4206227)
“Look, we don’t care what you do, who you offend, what drugs you take, who you send to prison, what you’re convicted of, whose breasts you allegedly threaten to slice, whose head you allegedly threaten to chop off or in what ditch you allegedly threaten to throw the remains. Just hit, baby. Hit ‘em long.”
.........

Was that the game Groat and Maz played, the game Aaron and Ruth played?


Isn't Cap Anson in the Hall of Fame? I mean seriously to suggest that baseball hof at any time previous to the ped scandals, cared about the character of the people it was putting in the hall other than gambling, is evidence of a person who does not know the history of the hall. Yes Dick Allen is out of the hof, so there is some character clause being invoked by the writers, but it's never been about cheating.
   6. AROM Posted: August 11, 2012 at 02:35 PM (#4206295)
I wonder if people would have tried to keep Anson out by the character clause if say, the HOF was started in 1970. Maybe he would still get in, but how about 2008 after the country elects a mixed race president?

At the time the HOF opened Anson was not the least bit objectionable, as MLB still didn't let black players play.
   7. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 11, 2012 at 03:23 PM (#4206334)
Ah, I see that Gene Collier is still writing four or five columns about sports a year to pretend that he's still a sportswriter and keep his BBWAA status active.
   8. thok Posted: August 11, 2012 at 03:25 PM (#4206337)
I wonder if people would have tried to keep Anson out by the character clause if say, the HOF was started in 1970.


This presumes that people would know who Cap Ansom was if the Hall of Fame started in 1970. I doubt the typical sportswriter would have thought to vote for him in that scenario.
   9. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: August 11, 2012 at 03:26 PM (#4206339)
Was that the game Groat and Maz played, the game Aaron and Ruth played?

Is that the game Neil Walker and Andrew McCutchen play?


Given that this is Collier, I don't think these are rhetorical questions. It's just been so long since he's seen a baseball game that he honestly doesn't remember much about the sport anymore.
   10. Ray (RDP) Posted: August 11, 2012 at 04:43 PM (#4206393)
Plenty of voters I have great respect for are willing to vote for Barry, and that’s their prerogative. But it’s not just the vote, it’s the message. A vote for Barry tells baseball’s subsequent generations, “Look, we don’t care what you do, who you offend, what drugs you take, who you send to prison, what you’re convicted of, whose breasts you allegedly threaten to slice, whose head you allegedly threaten to chop off or in what ditch you allegedly threaten to throw the remains. Just hit, baby. Hit ‘em long.”

Is that the game you want?


Um, yes?
   11. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: August 11, 2012 at 04:59 PM (#4206411)
I can think of a few breasts MLB should want to see sliced. (I'm looking at you, Prince and C.C.)
   12. Ron J Posted: August 11, 2012 at 10:16 PM (#4206575)
#6 The thing is that it's dead easy to prove that Anson bet on baseball. Anson's biography by David Fleitz mentions his betting. Published reports from 1895 have him betting with officials of at least 4 teams (several of the wagers substantial) that his Colts would finish ahead of their team. Reports of Anson's betting apparently were common in Sporting News, Sporting Life and similar types of publications.

Plenty of other reports about Anson betting going back to at least 1892.

And yes, it was against the rules then. The NA had strong no gambling rules and the NL adopted them word for word (the only change being substituting "league" for "association").

IOW you don't need racism.
   13. John Northey Posted: August 11, 2012 at 11:28 PM (#4206615)
I think the character clause was tossed out for all-time greats year one - unless you think hitting crippled people, death threats, trying to injury other players, etc. is acceptable.
   14. Squash Posted: August 12, 2012 at 05:20 AM (#4206666)
My guess is character clause standards i.e. what would keep a guy out change over time. It isn't a huge stretch for me to think if there were a massively unrepentant racist in MLB today who hit like Cap Anson that he would have to wait a few years for introduction.
   15. Juan V Posted: August 12, 2012 at 06:08 AM (#4206667)

I can think of a few breasts MLB should want to see sliced. (I'm looking at you, Prince and C.C.)


Just leave Morganna alone, OK?
   16. Barry`s_Lazy_Boy Posted: August 12, 2012 at 08:25 AM (#4206678)
“Look, we don’t care what you do, who you offend, what drugs you take, who you send to prison, what you’re convicted of, whose breasts you allegedly threaten to slice, whose head you allegedly threaten to chop off or in what ditch you allegedly threaten to throw the remains. Just hit, baby. Hit ‘em long.”

Is that the game you want?

Was that the game Groat and Maz played, the game Aaron and Ruth played?


It is the game Ty Cobb played.
   17. Walt Davis Posted: August 12, 2012 at 08:31 AM (#4206680)
Or ...

PEDs were not against the rules during the period Bonds "used."

During the brief overlap of testing and Bonds' career, he did not test positive.

PEDs are currently against the rules of baseball with clear penalties for usage. (Those penalties are less severe than those for gambling but more severe than anything else.)

So it really is quite easy to vote for Bonds while sending a clear message to current and future players that and PEDs suspensions they may receive shall be held against them.
   18. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: August 12, 2012 at 11:50 AM (#4206732)
By contrast, if you so much as whisper the name of someone you think should or shouldn't be in the Hall of Fame today, you are immediately subject to a blistering social media onslaught that describes the complete idiocy of your adult life.


Yes, how dare you face criticism for you opinions.
   19. DanG Posted: August 12, 2012 at 12:57 PM (#4206765)
Collier: So I'm officially out of the business of revealing my ballot


Reminds me of Mitt, seeking to conceal his dysfunctional behavior behind the doors of "quiet rooms".

Matt Lauer: "Are there no fair questions about the distribution of wealth without it being seen as envy, though?"

Romney: "You know I think it's fine to talk about those things in quiet rooms...."
   20. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: August 12, 2012 at 01:24 PM (#4206784)
But will those rooms stay quiet if people start talking about that sort of stuff in them?
   21. RMc's desperate, often sordid world Posted: August 13, 2012 at 07:42 AM (#4207078)
Plenty of voters I have great respect for are willing to vote for Barry

Aw, geez, not another Obama thread!
   22. AROM Posted: August 13, 2012 at 10:30 AM (#4207155)
It isn't a huge stretch for me to think if there were a massively unrepentant racist in MLB today who hit like Cap Anson that he would have to wait a few years for introduction.


I don't think such a situation is possible. Either he'd have to keep his views completely to himself, or MLB would use existing rules/ invent new ones to keep suspending the player*. No matter how good a hitter he was, he wouldn't be on the field enough to have an impact.

*Ozzie Guillen gets suspended for not being sufficiently anti-Castro. Imagine how long they'd keep a player out who went well beyond John Rocker's comments.
   23. Bitter Mouse Posted: August 13, 2012 at 10:54 AM (#4207176)
Um, yes?


I celebrate threads where Ray and I agree.

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