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Tuesday, January 17, 2012

Genetti: Lack of black players will open baseball HOF doors to others

This anti-Jeter gunk has got to stop!

Lee Smith, Tim Raines, Fred McGriff, Bernie Williams and Willie McGee aren’t in the Hall of Fame.

But they will be.

...The last thing baseball is going to want is some statistic come out showing a small number of blacks inducted into the Hall of Fame over a certain amount of time, so the next thing — which will more than likely happen — is well-deserving black players will be inducted here and there over time.

Perhaps it’s a stretch to have this thought, but if you look at the great white and Hispanic players that have dominated the game over the last couple of decades, there’s really no outstanding black players to get excited over. That’s why this lack of African-American players in baseball will give those currently on the ballot a bigger opportunity. Even at this moment the only black player who is baseball Hall of Fame-worthy is Prince Fielder.

Don’t get me wrong, this is not going to be done out of sympathy, I just believe the powers that be are going to conserve these players so there’s no absence of African-Americans going into Cooperstown over the next 10 or more years.

All of the players I’ve mentioned are very much worthy of the Hall of Fame, I just hope they’re inducted sooner rather than later.

Repoz Posted: January 17, 2012 at 11:24 PM | 241 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: fantasy baseball, hall of fame, history

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   1. akrasian Posted: January 17, 2012 at 11:43 PM (#4039080)
Bernie Williams is Puerto Rican.

I don't believe it matters on any cosmic scale, but if Dominicans don't count as black, then I'm not sure why a Puerto Rican would. In this case, both are of some African descent - but that would wreck the argument.
   2. Walt Davis Posted: January 17, 2012 at 11:44 PM (#4039081)
Willie McGee is the strangest mis-spelling of Barry Bonds I've ever seen.
   3. Drew (Primakov, Gungho Iguanas) Posted: January 17, 2012 at 11:48 PM (#4039083)
Great, so we can have yet another reason for people to get in the Hall other than performance.
   4. Chicago Joe Posted: January 17, 2012 at 11:50 PM (#4039085)
Tim Raines, maybe, but the rest? Blech.
   5. Morty Causa Posted: January 17, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4039086)
That's a pathetic vision of -- well, everything. It won't look good if no blacks go in? Pathetic.

.(JavaScript must be enabled to view this email address)
   6. OCF Posted: January 17, 2012 at 11:51 PM (#4039088)
Lou Whitaker.
   7. McCoy Posted: January 17, 2012 at 11:53 PM (#4039089)
How about white guys with black names?
   8. Cooper Nielson Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:04 AM (#4039094)
How about white guys with black names?

Ty Wigginton is not HOF-worthy.
   9. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:06 AM (#4039095)
Even at this moment the only black player who is baseball Hall of Fame-worthy is Prince Fielder.


At the moment, CC's Hall resume is more complete than Fielder's. Howard's probably as close or closer (based on his existing support within the BBWAA).

That is one bizarre FA.

Ty Wigginton is not HOF-worthy.


What about Willie Bloomquist? The scrappy reputation should have given it away, but I was stunned the first time when I discovered he was a caucasian feller.
   10. Monty Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:07 AM (#4039096)
This link is from the Kiowa County Signal. If you are curious about what else is going on in Kiowa County, Kansas, the front page's top two headlines are:

"Council fills planning and zoning vacancy, housing still has pair of vacancies"
and
"Vote for the Cutest Baby"

The article was actually provided by Gatehouse News Service, which appears to offer entire prefab newspaper sections.

The actual author works for the Hannibal, Mo., Courier-Post.


Anyway, my point is that this isn't from a major news source and probably isn't worth the time it takes to disagree with it. And it definitely isn't worth the time I spent determining exactly where it came from.
   11. Zipperholes Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:23 AM (#4039101)
Perhaps it’s a stretch to have this thought, but if you look at the great white
No, not HOF-worthy, though Once Bitten Twice Shy is a classic.
   12. Jacob Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:26 AM (#4039102)
...The last thing baseball is going to want is some statistic come out showing a small number of blacks inducted into the Hall of Fame over a certain amount of time,


I like statistics as much as the next guy, but...black players are a minority (in MLB), so it makes sense that there aren't as many in the HoF. Besides, I think that Negro League induction thing (sorry, wikipedia is down) was a bit much.
   13. Wins Above Paul Westerberg Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:32 AM (#4039107)
The actual author works for the Hannibal, Mo., Courier-Post.

Well I'd say this man is the finest writer to ever come out of Hannibal, Missouri.
   14. Something Other Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:50 AM (#4039110)
Don’t get me wrong, this is not going to be done out of sympathy, I just believe the powers that be are going to conserve these players...
"Conserve"? Anyone know what that means?

Am I missing something, or does TFE endorse at least an informal, race-based quota system?

And, Willie McGee?
   15. Howie Menckel Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:21 AM (#4039116)

"Well I'd say this man is the finest writer to ever come out of Hannibal, Missouri."

well played....

   16. Walt Davis Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:57 AM (#4039122)
I'm not gonna bother reading the article but I just assumed he was saying that baseball would, y'know, find a way to get these guys inducted because it would look bad if no black players were going in. Or that all the guilty white liberals in the BBWAA would make sure it does.

Is there a large black population of Bloomquists of which I'm unaware?
   17. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 18, 2012 at 02:05 AM (#4039126)
Is there a large black population of Bloomquists of which I'm unaware?


I don't know there's a large any kind of large population of Bloomquists. But Willies have tended to be less me in hue.

And I'm not really claiming my assumption was logical, just that it existed.
   18. CrosbyBird Posted: January 18, 2012 at 02:13 AM (#4039130)
Even if Bonds and Sheffield aren't inducted, you've got to figure that Frank Thomas, Griffey, and half of Derek Jeter will keep some of the heat off of the HOF voters.
   19. ptodd Posted: January 18, 2012 at 02:53 AM (#4039136)
Black Latinos are African American, just not African North American, so there are plenty of black players even if they were not born in the US, more so than in the 60's and 70's.

   20. OCF Posted: January 18, 2012 at 02:57 AM (#4039139)
Is there a large black population of Bloomquists of which I'm unaware?

Maybe he really meant Khalil Greene.
   21. LionoftheSenate Posted: January 18, 2012 at 03:29 AM (#4039142)
Is this guy part of the segment of America that thinks white people must pretend to care about blacks or else? Why must we pretend about this? If a guy is HOF worthy he is HOF worthy and should be voted in. Why turn this into a charade where we all pretend a specific group of ball players (that happen to be black) are HOF caliber ball players when they aren't?

*Of the ball players mentioned, Raines is worthy.
   22. Jefferson Manship (Dan Lee) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 05:35 AM (#4039156)
And, Willie McGee?

Even Willie's confused.
   23. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 18, 2012 at 06:57 AM (#4039161)
The actual author works for the Hannibal, Mo., Courier-Post.


Well I'd say this man is the finest writer to ever come out of Hannibal, Missouri.

Yeah, that Clemens guy was just a flash in the pan.
   24. Slivers of Maranville descends into chaos (SdeB) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 07:13 AM (#4039166)
That's a pathetic vision of -- well, everything. It won't look good if no blacks go in? Pathetic.


Hey, we've already seen people say it won't look good if no steroid users go in.
   25. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 08:06 AM (#4039181)

"Vote for the Cutest Baby"


Ugh, Willie McGee?
   26. Champions Table Posted: January 18, 2012 at 08:08 AM (#4039182)
Before seeing him, I thought Willie B. was black, too.
   27. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4039206)
I just believe the powers that be are going to conserve these players

Yes, we need to start conserving our players or the Soviets will win!
   28. Rusty Priske Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:29 AM (#4039216)
Both Raines and McGriff deserve to be in the Hall of Fame.

Having said that, this section:

Perhaps it’s a stretch to have this thought, but if you look at the great white and Hispanic players that have dominated the game over the last couple of decades, there’s really no outstanding black players to get excited over.


...says more about the writer than the state of baseball.
   29. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:34 AM (#4039219)
...says more about the writer than the state of baseball.

Not to mention Jim Rice and Barry Larkin are recent inductees.
   30. Champions Table Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:38 AM (#4039222)
Reggie Willits too.
   31. musial6 Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:38 AM (#4039223)
The last thing baseball is going to want is some statistic come out showing a small number of blacks inducted into the Hall of Fame over a certain amount of time


Hrm...nuclear holocaust vs meaningless statistic...I'll be honest with you I could use a good nuclear holocaust...No, I think I'll just go with the meaningless statistic
   32. musial6 Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:41 AM (#4039224)
Not to mention Jim Rice and Barry Larkin are recent inductees.


not to mention Dawson, Rickey, Gwynn, Murray, Ozzie, Winfield, and Puckett
   33. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:41 AM (#4039225)
Not to mention Jim Rice and Barry Larkin are recent inductees.


While still ignoring two other fellas in the same time frame.

   34. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:44 AM (#4039227)
Bernie Williams is Puerto Rican.

I don't believe it matters on any cosmic scale, but if Dominicans don't count as black, then I'm not sure why a Puerto Rican would. In this case, both are of some African descent - but that would wreck the argument.
Yeah, but Bernie Williams has released two* Jazz albums. So he's like, you know, basically black.

*Is it two? You don't realize how much you rely on Wikipedia until it isn't there
   35. DL from MN Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:47 AM (#4039230)
> at this moment the only black player who is baseball Hall of Fame-worthy is Prince Fielder.

CC Sabathia
   36. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: January 18, 2012 at 09:58 AM (#4039232)
> at this moment the only black player who is baseball Hall of Fame-worthy is Prince Fielder.

CC Sabathia


I hadn't really thought of it but Fielder and CC, for sure. I think Jimmy Rollins has an outside shot. Is Derek Jeter not black? Or, to paraphrase Archer, is he just "blackish?". And of course, a guy like Jeter is almost Faulknerian in the illustration of just how ###### up we are when thinking about race.
   37. RB in NYC (Now Semi-Retired from BBTF) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:00 AM (#4039236)
I believe, last we checked, Gary Sheffield had ruled Derek Jeter "not all the way black."
   38. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4039239)
I hadn't really thought of it but Fielder and CC, for sure.


I wish I had thought of it. (-:

Neither of them is hit by the bus, though CC's closing in on that status.

Howard could put one together (more Rice-like than Murrayian, based on his love from the BBWAA), as could Rollins. And Justin Upton and Matt Kemp have HoF caliber-talent, though both are obviously miles away from the distinction.

   39. Dale Sams Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4039240)
"Well you freaked out when I called you a Quadroon."
   40. Shooty would run in but these bone spurs hurt! Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:07 AM (#4039243)
"Well you freaked out when I called you a Quadroon."

Season 3 starts Thursday!
   41. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:08 AM (#4039246)
I believe we last checked, Gary Sheffield had ruled Derek Jeter "not all the way black."

So, "gray"?
   42. Rally Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:16 AM (#4039253)
How many black players (U.S. born only) can you think of who should get to the HOF before Willie McGee?

Got to be at least 50.

In addition to the ones mentioned so far in the comments, we've got Griffey and Frank Thomas coming up who should be certain steroids-free first ballot guys.

Lofton, Sheffield, Reggie Smith, Dick Allen, Willie Randolph, Jimmy Wynn, Willie Davis...

Barry Bonds and Ken Griffey Jr. could go in the hall and with their dads...

Chet Lemon, Vada Pinson, Ellis Burks, Mike Cameron, Darryl Strawberry, George Foster, Devon White, Ken Singleton, Amos Otis, Eric Davis, Cecil Cooper, Ray Durham, Dusty Baker, Bill Madlock, Dave Parker, Harold Baines...

Harder to find pitchers, but Dwight Gooden is there, and Vida Blue to go with Lee Smith.
   43. Rally Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:22 AM (#4039258)
Even at this moment the only black player who is baseball Hall of Fame-worthy is Prince Fielder.


He's got a chance as long as he keeps putting big seasons up. There aren't many active players who are HOF locks. Pujols, Jeter, Chipper, Halladay, Rivera, and Thome are about it. A-Roid has the obvious problem. Everyone else I can find some reason to expect the writers not to vote for him. Some more than that will obviously put up HOF numbers and some others will get voted in for whatever reason, but I only see 6 locks right now among active players.
   44. Ray (CTL) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:31 AM (#4039268)
I haven't looked specifically, but I hadn't noticed that deserving black players were having trouble getting inducted, any more than deserving players of other races are.

The writers' voting patterns are fairly easy to figure out. They boil down to shape of performance -- things like wins and RBIs vs. ERA+ or OPS+ -- rather than race of the player.
   45. SoSHially Unacceptable Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:34 AM (#4039270)
Everyone else I can find some reason to expect the writers not to vote for him.


Depending on whether he's considered active, I think Vlad is close to a lock. Might take him a few years, but I can't see him getting left out.

   46. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:39 AM (#4039276)
There aren't many active players who are HOF locks. Pujols, Jeter, Chipper, Halladay, Rivera, and Thome are about it.
I think Halladay is at least 12 wins away from being a Hall of Fame lock. A starting pitcher with under 200 wins, no matter how good his peak, is going to be a very hard sell for the BBWAA.

Even if/when Halladay gets his 200th win, he's going to be a bit of a hard sell because until a year or two ago, he never really "felt like" a Hall of Famer. It's his late-career peak that's pushing him over the top, and late-career peaks are often ignored by the Hall. Halladay is lucky he threw that playoff no-no - I think that was the first time that sportswriters really took notice of him as an all-time great.

Hopefully, of course, Halladay cranks out another 4-8 years of good pitching and makes all this academic.

EDIT: And I agree with SoSH that Vlad is a lock, barring steroid revelations. His WAR figures are low for a HoFer because of poor ratings for his baserunning and defense, but he's perceived as an excellent all-around player. Plus, those batting averages.
   47. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:47 AM (#4039289)
I don't believe it matters on any cosmic scale, but if Dominicans don't count as black, then I'm not sure why a Puerto Rican would.


It's more about "African American" than "black" - the two terms aren't really interchangeable, even though they're often used that way. Puerto Rico is a US territory whose residents are US citizens, and the Dominican Republic is not.

I.e. Damaso Marte is not an "African-American" not because his skin is insufficiently dusky, but rather because he's not an American of any sort.
   48. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 18, 2012 at 10:56 AM (#4039302)
Even if Bonds and Sheffield aren't inducted, you've got to figure that Frank Thomas, Griffey, and half of Derek Jeter will keep some of the heat off of the HOF voters.

Which half of Jeter can't go to his left, the black half or the right half?
   49. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4039327)
It's more about "African American" than "black" - the two terms aren't really interchangeable, even though they're often used that way. Puerto Rico is a US territory whose residents are US citizens, and the Dominican Republic is not.

I.e. Damaso Marte is not an "African-American" not because his skin is insufficiently dusky, but rather because he's not an American of any sort.


Right, but the only reason to worry about race at all is if you think there's some sort of discrimination going on. And, it doesn't pass the smell test to me that the white "baseball establishment" doesn't like blacks (for some unknown reason) except if the speak Spanish, and weren't born here. That's an odd sort of racism.
   50. base ball chick Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:23 AM (#4039338)
vlad

don't waste your time. there are too many guys here who absolutely refuse to understand that when americans of Negro descent say "african-american" it means people of african Negro descent who are born in america. the united states of america. not anywhere else. well, maybe from the canada part of america.

it is not skin color, it is ethnic heritage.

sort of like people whose religious beliefs are atheists, but they say they are "jewish" because it is their ethnicity. now folks like me who thought jewish was a religion just might could be a little startled to hear "jewish atheist" but hey, i got over it. and youse who are yelling that Black is Black need to get over it too.

i get tired of the "not Black enough" crap because some people have a little too much White/NA/Asian blood for some other peoples' prejudices

and speaking of prejudice, where is gary sheffield's name? he certainly has more business in the HOF than willie mcgee - and gary his own self ain't exactly All The Way Black

interesting that the anti steroid zealots pay no attention to fred mcgriff, who you'd think they'd pimp as an example of a Guy Who Did Things The Right Way
   51. musial6 Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:24 AM (#4039340)
How many black players (U.S. born only) can you think of who should get to the HOF before Willie McGee?


ERRORToo many results
   52. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:27 AM (#4039341)
it is not skin color, it is ethnic heritage.

I get this bbc, but does anyone ever worry about other ethnic representations in MLB?

Does anyone ever say, "There used to be lots of Italian stars like DiMaggio, Berra, Rizzuto, Piazza, but now there aren't, so something's wrong"?

   53. Rally Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:29 AM (#4039345)
I think Halladay is at least 12 wins away from being a Hall of Fame lock. A starting pitcher with under 200 wins, no matter how good his peak, is going to be a very hard sell for the BBWAA.


You're probably right. If Halladay blew out his shoulder at the start of spring and had only a few injury riddled partial seasons, he'd wind up in the Kevin Brown range which is obviously no HOF lock. So we're down to 5 - Pujols, Chipper, Jeter, Mo, and Thome.

And I'll bet some writers will invent reasons to hesitate on Thome. I can't see the other 4 not making it unless a positive steroid test or a gambling slip turns up.
   54. -- Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:33 AM (#4039348)
And I'll bet some writers will invent reasons to hesitate on Thome. I can't see the other 4 not making it unless a positive steroid test or a gambling slip turns up.

Jeter testing positive would forever alter the HOF balloting, not just for him, but for everyone else. Everyone's use would be seen in an entirely different light; the apologies and rationalizations would be Pettitte times roughly 27 billion.

Maybe it's a misread, but I highly, highly doubt Jeter would be bright lined out.
   55. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:34 AM (#4039350)
So we're down to 5 - Pujols, Chipper, Jeter, Mo, and Thome.


Matt Wieters.
   56. base ball chick Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:35 AM (#4039351)
snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:17 AM (#4039327)

I.e. Damaso Marte is not an "African-American" not because his skin is insufficiently dusky, but rather because he's not an American of any sort.

Right, but the only reason to worry about race at all is if you think there's some sort of discrimination going on. And, it doesn't pass the smell test to me that the white "baseball establishment" doesn't like blacks (for some unknown reason) except if the speak Spanish, and weren't born here. That's an odd sort of racism.


- the white baseball establishment is not looking at skin color when they are racist. for the simple reason that the "vlad guerreros" are not "african-american" but latin. they don't care if a latin is the color/appearance of vlad/david ortiz or ismael valdez. they are "latin"

as i keep trying and failing to explain, it is a culture thing. american Blacks are uppity - you think gary sheffield would get ANYWHERE these days? latins are "emotional" not uppity. fact is that you may look at david ortiz and say you have exactly NO way of knowing where he was born/grew up without knowing his name/hearing him speak - and it's quite true. However, the people with money/power who make decisions are not looking at a person's physical appearance without knowing anything else about him.

it's a culture-ist, not a color-ist thingy
   57. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4039363)
it's a culture-ist, not a color-ist thingy

OK, let's assume that this bias exists at some level. So, is there any evidence that qualified US black players are not getting jobs in MLB b/c of this bias?

Sheffield's a bad example b/c he was so good. But is the treatment he received any different than Clemens or Kevin brown (both of whom were considered to be ########)?

I mean Elijah Dukes got lots of chances, and he was a felon. Delmon Young is still playing, and he's been more than just "uppity".

If your thesis was true, we'd expect to see a bunch of black guys languishing in AA/AAA not getting a chance. Is that true?

I think the relative lack of US blacks is a cultural thing, but it's a shift in the culture of those blacks, to prefer other sports to baseball.
   58. base ball chick Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:48 AM (#4039365)
snapper

nobody cares real too particular much if there are italians, jews, irish, polish, rumanian, dutch, german or any other kind of "white" in the majors. nobody cares if there are american born asians. nobody cares if there are any pakistanis/indians no matter WHERE they are born in the majors.

back when joe D started playing, there was a stereotype of italians as all a bunch of greasy gangsters - remember that article which carefully explained how joe D didn't even LIKE spaghetti?

that stuff is bout gone - except for "reality" tv on the gottis and joizey shaw

but fact is that people who look like they have Negro ancestry still trigger emotions/perceptions/race stuff in a way that other "dark" people don't. at least not here and not in baseball
   59. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4039367)
Right, but the only reason to worry about race at all is if you think there's some sort of discrimination going on. And, it doesn't pass the smell test to me that the white "baseball establishment" doesn't like blacks (for some unknown reason) except if the speak Spanish, and weren't born here. That's an odd sort of racism.


There are a lot of kinds of real-world racism that slice divisions much more finely than that. My mother's family (and their friends/neighbors) are mostly Rusyns, and over the years I've heard a lot of varying opinions on the merits (or lack thereof) of Slovaks, Moravians, Hutsuls, etc., even though most outside observers wouldn't be able to tell the one from the other.

Is that the way it works in MLB? I have no idea - I'm not a part of that. But it's not an inherently crazy idea on the face of things. (No more so than racism in general, anyway.)
   60. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:56 AM (#4039372)
Does anyone ever say, "There used to be lots of Italian stars like DiMaggio, Berra, Rizzuto, Piazza, but now there aren't, so something's wrong"?


I've heard/seen that view articulated a lot of times about Jews. Which then opens up the whole can of worms as to whether or not "Jewish" is a race, or an ethnicity, or neither...
   61. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4039375)
Is that the way it works in MLB? I have no idea - I'm not a part of that. But it's not an inherently crazy idea on the face of things. (No more so than racism in general, anyway.)

Agreed. But I want to see some decent evidence.

My "null hypothesis" would be that if MLB execs don't like black Americans, they don't like black Latins either. Since they seem to be hiring black Latins in large numbers, I'm going to need some hard evidence to show me where they're avoiding qualified black Americans. Otherwise, my belief will be those qualified black Americans just don't exist in the same numbers they used to.

I mean, it could be as simple as minor league baseball being a better economic deal for people from poor countries. Making $20K in AA looks a hell of a lot better to a guy from the DR than a guy from the US (regardless of color).
   62. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4039377)
I've heard/seen that view articulated a lot of times about Jews. Which then opens up the whole can of worms as to whether or not "Jewish" is a race, or an ethnicity, or neither...

Funny enough, it seems like there are more good Jewish players than in the past. Braun, Kinsler, Youkilis, etc.
   63. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 18, 2012 at 11:59 AM (#4039378)
How many black players (U.S. born only) can you think of who should get to the HOF before Willie McGee?

McGee should get every single vote from every writer who's outraged by the increased size of Barry Bonds' head.
   64. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:06 PM (#4039383)
My "null hypothesis" would be that if MLB execs don't like black Americans, they don't like black Latins either.


I think that depends on their exact reasons for not liking black Americans. It'll be true some of the time, but not all of it.
   65. CrosbyBird Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:08 PM (#4039387)
Which half of Jeter can't go to his left, the black half or the right half?

The white half, of course. All of his talent comes from his black father, and all of his scrappiness from his white mother. It's like the best of both worlds!
   66. Fancy Crazy Town Banana Pants Handle Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4039393)
He's got a chance as long as he keeps putting big seasons up. There aren't many active players who are HOF locks. Pujols, Jeter, Chipper, Halladay, Rivera, and Thome are about it. A-Roid has the obvious problem. Everyone else I can find some reason to expect the writers not to vote for him. Some more than that will obviously put up HOF numbers and some others will get voted in for whatever reason, but I only see 6 locks right now among active players.

Ichiro could be a lock if he wanted to.
   67. base ball chick Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:14 PM (#4039394)
vlad

with the "jewish ethnicity" i look at it like this -

just like i can't tell if david ortiz or ryan howard is african american if i just look at pics and don't know their names/don't hear them speak

i can't tell if some person is "jewish" unless he's wearing a yarmulka or dressed like a hassidic or wearing a star of david. i can't figure out the rules about who is/isn't jewish.

kind of like people who can't figure out what we mean when we say "african american"
   68. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:17 PM (#4039395)
back when joe D started playing, there was a stereotype of italians as all a bunch of greasy gangsters - remember that article which carefully explained how joe D didn't even LIKE spaghetti?

that stuff is bout gone - except for "reality" tv on the gottis and joizey shaw


Which is kind of interesting to unpack, insofar as neither Snooki nor JWOWW are ethnically Italian.
   69. BDC Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:20 PM (#4039401)
I think that virtually everything in America is inflected by race and racism. I think that's the case with education policy, social services, public transportation, health-care reform, and God knows Presidential politics.

I think, however, that big-time sports, collegiate and professional both, are less inflected (infected?) by race and racism than most aspects of our society. Not uninflected or uninfected, but a lot less. That's one reason I like sports.

As to the Baseball Hall of Fame, and baseball awards voting in general, I think it's been one of the most colorblind processes in American popular culture. The one time in my life I can remember race being raised as an issue in such voting was 1974, when people grumbled that Lou Brock, a justly proud black man, was being stiffed in favor of clean-cut white Steve Garvey. Ironically in retrospect, Garvey wasn't all that clean-cut, and he deserved the MVP more than Brock did, which is to say not very much. And even at the time, the voting was much less a case of racism than of valuing RBIs more than stolen bases. 1974 was a tense time in America, like the decade that preceded it. But if the voters were out to snub Lou Brock, it doesn't explain why they'd just honored Reggie Jackson and Dick Allen in the two years previous – both of them a lot more "uppity" in Lisa's terms than Lou Brock.
   70. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:30 PM (#4039410)
Even if/when Halladay gets his 200th win, he's going to be a bit of a hard sell because until a year or two ago, he never really "felt like" a Hall of Famer. It's his late-career peak that's pushing him over the top, and late-career peaks are often ignored by the Hall.


I don't necessarily disagree, anything is possible and god knows there's an awful lot of stupid in HOF vote justification, but how log did Sandy Koufax feel like a HOFer? How about Clemente? Eckersley? Molitor? Raines had an early peak, but all you hear about him was "... done playing like HOFer by age 29 and then hung around for 12 years as a journeyman." Hell, I'm sure people will make that same argument WRT Frank Thomas. I think it's a fool's errand to predict what the voters will hold against a particular candidate.
   71. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:31 PM (#4039412)
Not an award, but some racial agita was publicly vented during the Mattingly-Winfield batting race in 1984, because the fan and media rooting interest tilted so strongly towards Mattingly.
   72. CrosbyBird Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4039416)
can't tell if some person is "jewish" unless he's wearing a yarmulka or dressed like a hassidic or wearing a star of david. i can't figure out the rules about who is/isn't jewish.

I can usually tell if someone is black or white just by looking at them.
   73. Misirlou doesn't live in the restaurant Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4039417)
Not an award, but some racial agita was publicly vented during the Mattingly-Winfield batting race in 1984, because the fan and media rooting interest tilted so strongly towards Mattingly.


And in 1976 when it came down to the last day between George Brett and 3 black guys.
   74. base ball chick Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:40 PM (#4039422)
vlad

well, i only watched part of joizey shaw only once - was pretty sure Da Sitchew wayshun was eyetalian, and i presumed that so was everyone else i saw. not that i cared. at first i thought it was some kind of comedy poking fun at old ethnic stereotypes, then i suddenly realized that it wasn't funny becauase it wasn't supposed to be a comedy, just a horror show.

i don't know/care what snooki's ethnic background is except a disgusting blot of ick on the human gene pool
   75. Rants Mulliniks Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:41 PM (#4039424)
And, Willie McGee?

Even Willie's confused.


I've always loved that card, it looks like the guy in front of him just unleashed a nasty shart.

As for racism, I agree with Morgan Freeman - it will never go away if we keep talking about it all the time.

http://www.funnyordie.com/videos/6d783fcfec/morgan-freeman-solves-racism
   76. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:42 PM (#4039426)
was pretty sure Da Sitchew wayshun was eyetalian

Who else just deduced that bbc is Jack Keefe?
   77. Rally Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:50 PM (#4039435)
"OK, let's assume that this bias exists at some level. So, is there any evidence that qualified US black players are not getting jobs in MLB b/c of this bias?"

I don't think there's any significant number of black players stuck in AAA that should be getting MLB jobs. I do think there's some level of bias/discrimination that happens well before that. As I was going through the list in #42, I was struck by how an overwhelming portion of the black "Hall o Very Good" is made up of outfielders.

So maybe what we have here is that young black players are projected as outfielders, those who enter professional baseball as infielders are pushed to the OF (like the Upton brothers) and those who are better suited toward other positions find themselves pushed to other sports.

You didn't have this in the early days of integration, since players coming from the Negro Leagues obviously have to fill all nine positions (or else you wind up with too many passed balls and infield hits). Whether consciously or not, this process has made black infielders rare, and pitchers and catchers even more rare.

   78. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:51 PM (#4039438)
As for racism, I agree with Morgan Freeman - it will never go away if we keep talking about it all the time.

Or will we know it's gone away when we notice that we are not talking about it any more?

The AA/black thing is perplexing. If Serbs hate Bosnians, it's ethnic strife not racism, right? (I'm not being snarky here.) Supposing white baseball administrators hate AAs but love black Latinos, is that ethnic/cultural or racial? Or is it complicated? Our words get all twisted around. Maybe the issues are so complex that our language fails us. Ethnoracist is a pretty crappy word as words go to describe the behavior.

bbc, not to be a pr*** or anything, but you didn't answer snapper's question in 57. Do we have any evidence that AA players are languishing at AAA/AA or get drummed out faster than other players? I have no idea.
   79. Rally Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4039439)
well, i only watched part of joizey shaw only once - was pretty sure Da Sitchew wayshun was eyetalian, and i presumed that so was everyone else i saw. not that i cared. at first i thought it was some kind of comedy poking fun at old ethnic stereotypes, then i suddenly realized that it wasn't funny becauase it wasn't supposed to be a comedy, just a horror show.


I had never seen any of it until it Beavis and Butthead came back and it's one of the shows they watch on MTV. The Jersey Shore makes Beavis and Butthead look like intalekshoealls.
   80. -- Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:53 PM (#4039440)
insofar as neither Snooki nor JWOWW are ethnically Italian.

No -- Snooki is ethnically skank.
   81. ERROR---Jolly Old St. Nick Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:55 PM (#4039441)
can't tell if some person is "jewish" unless he's wearing a yarmulka or dressed like a hassidic or wearing a star of david. i can't figure out the rules about who is/isn't jewish.

Hell, I dated a girl named Feldman in tenth grade, and could never figure out why she'd only go out on Saturday night and not on Friday night. We also had Christmas carols in 6th grade, and when the teacher said that "anyone who feels that they can't sing these songs can be excused", I didn't realize she was talking about the Jewish kids and not about those of us who didn't think our voices were qualified. It was sometimes a bit confusing to be a young agnostic in the era of Ozzie and Harriet.
   82. -- Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:00 PM (#4039446)
I had never seen any of it until it Beavis and Butthead came back and it's one of the shows they watch on MTV.

Was that intentional? Did MTV bring back B and B to give the shitferbrains on Jersey Shore something to watch and thereby cross-promote ... and vice-versa?
   83. Bug Selig Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:01 PM (#4039447)
1) I think AROM nails it in #77. I coach teenagers in travel ball. I would guess that over half the time a team has only one black kid, he's the centerfielder.

2) We can't even try to compare African Americans versus "black" Latins. Buying young players who are not subject to the draft (and are often underage with no bargaining power) is the new market inefficiency - or was until the new CBA. In any case, they come to MLB through completely different processes and channels, so we should not expect equal representation.
   84. Greg K Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:02 PM (#4039448)
The AA/black thing is perplexing. If Serbs hate Bosnians, it's ethnic strife not racism, right? (I'm not being snarky here.) Supposing white baseball administrators hate AAs but love black Latinos, is that ethnic/cultural or racial? Or is it complicated? Our words get all twisted around. Maybe the issues are so complex that our language fails us. Ethnoracist is a pretty crappy word as words go to describe the behavior.

One thing I learned from my rather rudimentary reading on 19th century Latin American independence movements is how blurry the racial lines could become.

People who started the day chanting "death to the peninsularas!" or "death to the mestizos!" could find themselves being counted as in the group very group they were marching against.
   85. Endless Trash Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:09 PM (#4039453)

I had never seen any of it until it Beavis and Butthead came back and it's one of the shows they watch on MTV.


Ha, same.

I didn't even know Lee Smith was black til this very moment.
   86. base ball chick Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:11 PM (#4039455)
CrosbyBird Posted: January 18, 2012 at 12:36 PM (#4039416)

can't tell if some person is "jewish" unless he's wearing a yarmulka or dressed like a hassidic or wearing a star of david. i can't figure out the rules about who is/isn't jewish.

I can usually tell if someone is black or white just by looking at them.


- it depends exactly how you define those words. is grady sizemore Black or White? what about anwar sadat? if you look "White" but have a Black parent, then what?

- but as i said, i am not even sure who does/does not fit the definition of "jewish" which makes it much tougher for me to tell. so if someone tells me he's/she's jewish, well, then far as i'm concerned, they are, no matter who their parents are or what they look like. it is not something that matters real too particular much to me unless people think i am somehow supposed to just automatically KNOW that ryan braun the hitter is jewish and ryan braun the pitcher is not.

which is kind of a little different than seeing some sort of a difference between the bobby jones the lefty and bobby jones the righty on the 2000 mets
   87. BDC Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:18 PM (#4039460)
how blurry the racial lines could become

Three of my grandparents were of English, French, and German descent respectively (and my surname, from a step-grandfather, is Jewish). I would seem to be a pretty white American, yet because of my fourth grandparent, a Slovak, I spent a lot of time in tony East-coast schools feeling thoroughly hyphenated. I've been in suburbs in Texas where I feel neither Gentile nor particularly white, let alone the Nordic Protestant I actually half-am, ethnically. (To make matters muddier, I am by religion a lapsed Catholic.) Yet here in diverse DFW and at my amazingly diverse university, I often feel like I just disembarked from the Mayflower. I reckon a lot of standard white Americans have had similar feelings. This is a really complicated country.

Edit: I do realize that my unstable identity can literally be filed under "White People's Problems" :)
   88. Bring Me the Head of Alfredo Griffin (Vlad) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4039462)
is grady sizemore Black or White? what about anwar sadat? if you look "White" but have a Black parent, then what?


Not to mention the intensely confusing case of Ian Snell.
   89. Rally Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:26 PM (#4039465)
1) I think AROM nails it in #77. I coach teenagers in travel ball. I would guess that over half the time a team has only one black kid, he's the centerfielder.


It's a situation pretty much unique to minorities playing in an integrated environment. The same dynamic can't happen to Dominicans or Japanese because they grow up playing with other Dominicans and Japanese. Somebody's got to play every position.
   90. Tippecanoe Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:34 PM (#4039471)
I coach teenagers in travel ball. I would guess that over half the time a team has only one black kid, he's the centerfielder


And this is not new -- in fact it exactly describes my American Legion team in downstate Illinois for the years 1978 through 1980. You also forgot to mention that he hits leadoff.
   91. Gonfalon Bubble Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:42 PM (#4039477)
Did MTV bring back B and B to give the shitferbrains on Jersey Shore something to watch and thereby cross-promote ... and vice-versa?

It's kind of hard for "Beavis & Butt-Head" to make fun of music videos the way they used to, when no one airs music videos and they don't get nearly the same kind of cultural traction.

Video of the Year nominees, 2011:
Katy Perry, "Firework"
Adele, "Rolling in the Deep"
Beastie Boys, "Make Some Noise"
Bruno Mars, "Grenade"
Tyler, The Creator, "Yonkers"

Video of the Year nominees, 2010:
Lady Gaga, "Bad Romance"
Florence + The Machine, "Dog Days Are Over"
30 Seconds To Mars, "Kings and Queens"
Lady Gaga featuring Beyoncé, "Telephone"
Eminem, "Not Afraid"
B.o.B featuring Hayley Williams, "Airplanes"

Video of the Year nominees, 2009:
Beyoncé, "Single Ladies [Put a Ring on It]"
Lady Gaga. "Poker Face"
Britney Spears, "Womanizer"
Eminem, "We Made You"
Kanye West, "Love Lockdown"

Video of the Year nominees, 2008:
Britney Spears, "Piece of Me"
Pussycat Dolls, "When I Grow Up
Ting Tings, "Shut Up and Let Me Go"
Jonas Brothers, "Burnin' Up"
Chris Brown, "Forever"

Video of the Year nominees, 2007:
Amy Winehouse, "Rehab"
Beyoncé, "Irreplaceable"
Justice, "D.A.N.C.E."
Justin Timberlake, "What Goes Around ... Comes Around"
Kanye West, "Stronger"
Rihanna (featuring Jay-Z), "Umbrella"
   92. base ball chick Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4039478)
edmundo

sorry, i wasn't meaning to be a d*ck, pr*ck or a just plain penis (although it would be interesting to be one, just to see what it is like)

but one answer at a time.

i can't think of any AAA Black ballplayer who is obviously ML material, or should be given a chance based on stats being equal to some White guy who is being given a chance..

however, i DO notice that Black ballplayers are either DH, 1B or OF. the astros signed delino deshields at age 17 in the first round a few years back and immediately told him he was going from second base to CF. and it was a condition of his getting signed. and the guy was 17 years old!!!

since like maybe the Strike, not real too many Black guys who have been a starting SS or 2B - the last ones i can think of are delino deshields sr (and he was pushed to the OF) and eric young (and he was made into a utility guy) jeter, royce clayton and jimmy rollins. last Black catcher i remember is charles johnson - unless you count russell martin and he is just a canadian and we all know Those Peeple don't count, and besides he ain't all the way Black.

i can't remember anyone who was a Black starting 3B unless you count lenny harris, which i don't - and i can't even think of any guy who is Black and was drafted and played 3B even in the low minors.

there are still a few pitchers, but basically, you have to fit the stereotype of being ryan howard, michael bourn or willie harris. Black guys are suppoed to run fast/play D unless they are da Prince/ryan howard. i'm trying and failing to think of any righty Black SP who came up in the past 10 years (except shawn chacon, bless him)

there isn't any such problem with guys who look like delino deshields who are not born in america.

so there IS something there.


EDIT - sorry, missed AROM in 77 - i know all youse might believe him instead of one of Us Sees Racism Under Every Bush

so to speak

   93. RoyalsRetro (AG#1F) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:43 PM (#4039479)
The last black catcher was who, Charles Johnson? Tony Eusebio? How many black third basemen are there? Bill Hall I guess?

I have noticed there seem to be more black pitchers in the minors these days, at least on top prospect lists. Tajuan Walker, Keyvius Sampson, Tyrell Jenkins come to mind.
   94. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:45 PM (#4039480)
1) I think AROM nails it in #77. I coach teenagers in travel ball. I would guess that over half the time a team has only one black kid, he's the centerfielder.

Could this be as simple an issue as height/size?

American blacks tend to fall on the tall side, especially compared to Latins, and OF rewards height/length of stride while IF doesn't.

The same dynamic can't happen to Dominicans or Japanese because they grow up playing with other Dominicans and Japanese. Somebody's got to play every position.

Yet for years and years Dominicans were hugely over-represented at SS. Now C seems to be dominated by Latin players. Japanese have had much more success as pitchers.

None of these position specialization could have the same root.

   95. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4039485)
I've heard/seen that view articulated a lot of times about Jews. Which then opens up the whole can of worms as to whether or not "Jewish" is a race, or an ethnicity, or neither...

Funny enough, it seems like there are more good Jewish players than in the past. Braun, Kinsler, Youkilis, etc.


Let's look for the real evidence of discrimination against the Jews - boxing. From the dawn of the gloved age through the 1930s Jews excelled in every weight division. Where is the modern Benny Leonard? Where is today's Maxie Rosenbloom? Whither hides our Joe Choynski, Barney Ross, or Battling Levinski?

Jack Dempsey's career was dogged by whispered insinuations that he was secretly Jewish - how else to explain his in-ring dominance?

I can only assume some massive conspiracy amongst boxing promoters to deny the Hebrews their rightful opportunities in the ring - far worse than merely "uppity", the Jews were well-known to be "shrewd", a sunny euphemism for "will try and screw you for more money." Far better to deal with the black, the Italian, the Hibernian, the Mexican.
   96. Esmailyn Gonzalez Sr. Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:47 PM (#4039486)
Showing my age here, but Dick Allen was black?
   97. snapper (history's 42nd greatest monster) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:49 PM (#4039487)
Showing my age here, but Dick Allen was black?

Still is.
   98. Swoboda is freedom Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4039489)
insofar as neither Snooki nor JWOWW are ethnically Italian.

Back to the whole nature vs. nuture problems.
   99. You Know Nothing JT Snow (YR) Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:50 PM (#4039490)
Showing my age here, but Dick Allen was black?


Extremely. In fact, I think his birth name was Mandingo Allen.
   100. DL from MN Posted: January 18, 2012 at 01:52 PM (#4039492)
I think the bias is this: black athletes who tend to make it can hit. Players who can hit but are rough in the field are moved to the outfield or 1B to get their bat to the majors faster. Players who can hit are also less likely to be put at catcher due to the injury risk. Black athletes who can't hit play other sports.

Latino players don't see the same biases for one big reason - in order to field a team in those countries you have to have people of that ethnicity playing all the positions. Same thing happened in the Negro Leagues - when the team needed someone at C they had to develop a black catcher. The Negro Leagues were loaded with good talent at catcher - Gibson, Santop, Mackey, Radcliffe, Campanella, Trouppe. There were some black catchers in the generation right after that - Elston Howard, Earl Battey, Hendricks, Roseboro. The 90s had Charles Johnson and now there's Russell Martin who is African-Canadian.
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