Baseball for the Thinking Fan

Login | Register | Feedback

btf_logo
You are here > Home > Baseball Newsstand > Baseball Primer Newsblog > Discussion
Baseball Primer Newsblog
— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand

Monday, October 29, 2012

Giants beat Tigers 4-3 in extra innings, win World Series

No doubt Marco Scutaro had waited a long time for the at-bat. Days before, the 36-year-old journeyman infielder had caught the final out to send himself and the Giants, his sixth major-league team, into the World Series. Sunday night, he came up with a runner on second and two outs in the 10th inning of a tied game, and delivered a signature line drive up the middle that will forever have its own place in Giants lore.

Scutaro’s single off Detroit Tigers closer Phil Coke became the go-ahead hit in Game 4 of the World Series as Ryan Theriot slid across home plate and went into a crouch, both fists clenched. It became the Series-winning hit as Sergio Romo struck out the side in the bottom of the 10th, getting Triple Crown winner Miguel Cabrera for the final out.

For the second time in three years, the San Francisco Giants are the kings of baseball. For the first time in franchise history since 1954, they did it in a sweep, finishing the Tigers in four games.

Repoz Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:06 AM | 100 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: giants, tigers

Reader Comments and Retorts

Go to end of page

Statements posted here are those of our readers and do not represent the BaseballThinkFactory. Names are provided by the poster and are not verified. We ask that posters follow our submission policy. Please report any inappropriate comments.

   1. Morph Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:09 AM (#4286993)
Made the '05 Series look like Citizen Kane.

Congrats to the Giants and their fans, though. Great pitching and a superstar catcher is certainly a recipe for happiness.
   2. Booey Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:19 AM (#4287014)
Dammit Miggy, you should've crushed that last pitch!

I actually think this was a pretty fun series for a sweep. The last 3 games were close and even the game 1 blowout was entertaining cuz of Panda's performance. For the deciding game to go into extra innings with arguably the best hitter in baseball at the plate...well, that's some great drama.

Congrats to the Giants and their fans.
   3. musial6 Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:19 AM (#4287017)
The man in the black pajamas......worthy fuocking adversary
   4. Walks Clog Up the Bases Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:21 AM (#4287021)
The long-suffering one-year-olds out there can now say that the Giants have won a World Series in their lifetime.

Just think: The Giants really got all of this rolling when Scott Rolen (no almost pun intended) made that error that allowed the go-ahead run to score in what could have been the clinching game for the Reds.
   5. asinwreck Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:23 AM (#4287026)
Made the '05 Series look like Citizen Kane.


The '05 Series was Citizen Kane.

So...Giant Dynasty?
   6. Walt Davis Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:35 AM (#4287047)
I would like to congratulate the Giants on winning the meaningless post-season exhibition!
   7. McCoy Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:37 AM (#4287052)
Oh, so baseball is over with. Well, see you in 2015.
   8. McCoy Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:39 AM (#4287054)
Just think, Dusty was with the Giants forever, had the greatest player in the history of the game playing for him forever, and one of the best second basemens in the game and couldn't win the WS. He leaves and he shits the bed in Chicago and now in Cincinnati. Meanwhile Sabean, who Dusty had a power struggle with and lost, and the Giants have won 2 WS titles since his departure.
   9. Bhaakon Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:45 AM (#4287065)
As a San Francisco Giants fan, I'm just glad that that effing Marlins fan can no longer lord his two rings over us.
   10. The Yankee Clapper Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:46 AM (#4287066)
So...Giant Dynasty?

Not until they win consecutive World Series, although 3 in a row should probably be the minimum.
   11. Dan Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:47 AM (#4287067)
Congrats to the Giants but that was one of the least engaging World Series I can recall.
   12. McCoy Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:48 AM (#4287068)
Right up there with White Sox vs Astros
   13. Benji Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:51 AM (#4287071)
For the small amount of you that were alive in 1966, I think you'll see the similarity to that World Series. The Oriole pitching was just as dominant, except that the Dodgers didn't have Cabrera or Fielder. Congrats to the Giants.
   14. Austin Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:08 AM (#4287087)
I have to agree with Dan. Sweeps aren't much fun, and this series had more of the feel of inept Tigers hitting than of great Giants pitching. I do have to admit that in isolation, Game 4 was pretty good (extra innings usually are), but in every other game, the Giants never relinquished the lead once they had scored. Two of the games may have been close, but without lead changes or satisfyingly dominant pitching, they weren't particularly good games.
   15. Tripon Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:12 AM (#4287088)
There is no God.
   16. Eric J can SABER all he wants to Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:13 AM (#4287089)
Congrats to the Giants but that was one of the least engaging World Series I can recall.

Come on, you don't even have to go that far back to find a worse one. This one wasn't a classic, but it gave us a 3-HR game, a 2-hitter, and an extra-inning game with a pair of regulation lead changes.
   17. Bhaakon Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:15 AM (#4287090)

I have to agree with Dan. Sweeps aren't much fun, and this series had more of the feel of inept Tigers hitting than of great Giants pitching. I do have to admit that in isolation, Game 4 was pretty good (extra innings usually are), but in every other game, the Giants never relinquished the lead once they had scored. Two of the games may have been close, but without lead changes or satisfyingly dominant pitching, they weren't particularly good games.


Well, I think you're right as far as the starting pitching goes. While the results were certainly there, I don't think any of the Giants' starters were particularly impressive stuff-wise.

That being said, the Giants' bullpen was good in the regular season and became particularly beastly with the addition of Lincecum in the postseason. There's also the matter of the weather, which wasn't conducive to hitting in either park, and neither team hit particularly well.
   18. President of the David Eckstein Fan Club Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:18 AM (#4287091)
The 2005 World Series wasn't engaging? Huh? Yeah, it was a sweep, but the games were close and a lot more dramatic (in my opinion) than, say, the 2-0 games in this one.
   19. Pasta-diving Jeter (jmac66) Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:18 AM (#4287093)
The '05 Series was Citizen Kane.

(40 years from now)
"Rose-Panda"
   20. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:21 AM (#4287094)
Jim Leyland let Phil Coke face 4 of 8 RHBs with the season on the line.

It was only a matter of time.
   21. Into the Void Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:32 AM (#4287100)
Love the people popping in with nothing else to say than how boring the World Series was. The last three games were 2-0, 2-0, 4-3. The other game was historic in that it included three home runs by one player. What exactly are you complaining about? Need more dingers?
   22. tshipman Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:52 AM (#4287104)
Every year Buster Posey has been healthy, the Giants have won the World Series.

Jim Leyland let Phil Coke face 4 of 8 RHBs with the season on the line.


This was somewhat defensible, as the game was going to Extra Innings. You'd probably rather that Coke face righties than that Valverde comes in by the 11th.

Benoit had gone two the previous game (I think). He was probably only available for one inning.
   23.   Posted: October 29, 2012 at 02:11 AM (#4287106)
I'd much rather use Valverde.

You're down 3 games to none, and he's been your big swinging dick for how long? Give him a final shot at redemption
   24. Rennie's Tenet Posted: October 29, 2012 at 02:26 AM (#4287108)
Was this tonight?
   25. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 29, 2012 at 02:27 AM (#4287109)
I still can't find my intestines.
   26. Sleepy supports unauthorized rambling Posted: October 29, 2012 at 02:51 AM (#4287113)
Congrats to the Giants but that was one of the least engaging World Series I can recall.


Someone says that pretty much every year, don't they?
   27. Loren F. Posted: October 29, 2012 at 02:55 AM (#4287114)
Congrats to the Giants!

Sabean has been slammed a lot over the years here at BBTF because he hasn't demonstrated a lot of sabermetric savvy. Well, I think he can now lay claim to the title of the best non-sabermetric GM currently in the game.
   28.   Posted: October 29, 2012 at 02:56 AM (#4287115)
Someone says that pretty much every year, don't they?


Yes.
   29. steagles Posted: October 29, 2012 at 03:18 AM (#4287119)
i was rooting for the tigers here, but considering how ####### close we were to a cardinals-yankees world series, i'm not gonna piss into the wind by saying something bad about the giants.

   30. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: October 29, 2012 at 05:36 AM (#4287124)
Love the people popping in with nothing else to say than how boring the World Series was.

That's because it was. Worst. World. Series. Ever. Pathetic.

What exactly are you complaining about?

A four game sweep in which the winning team lead almost every inning. Back-to-back shutouts, for the first time since 1966. Utterly inept hitting. A pervasive sense of gloom. Need more?

It's a cliche to say the losing team in a series just didn't try hard enough, but what other conclusion can you draw? The Tigers didn't show up at all. They didn't care. So why should I?
   31. Morph Posted: October 29, 2012 at 06:06 AM (#4287129)
The 2005 World Series wasn't engaging? Huh? Yeah, it was a sweep, but the games were close and a lot more dramatic (in my opinion) than, say, the 2-0 games in this one


I agree with this, certainly, but the problem, in my mind, with these two Series was that the teams being swept appeared overmatched offensively. Both the Astros in '05 and the Tigers, in this edition, assumed a pitiful posture, seemingly overwhelmed by both the moment and the opposing pitching staffs. Last night's game was quite entertaining, but overall, I do not relish ineptitude partially defining a World Series. The '05 White Sox had an awesome rotation and bullpen, ditto for these Giants, but when Pennant winning teams like the Tigers and '05 Astros just look helpless at the plate, the games become less entertaining, in my opinion. I actually prefer sweeps where the losing team is throughly demolished, like the '07 Rockies, especially when the best team has risen to the top, and 'owned' the moment, so to speak. The closeness of games two and three only made Detroit's plight more depressing. I'm a Yankees fan, but I always root for a great Series. Scutaro's hit felt merciful. Apologies to the Tigers fans, but that's the feeling I got when that ball landed in front of Jackson.
   32. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 29, 2012 at 06:10 AM (#4287130)
congrats to the giants and their fans
   33. NJ in DC (Now with temporary employment!) Posted: October 29, 2012 at 07:13 AM (#4287136)
Congrats to the Giants fans. I would like to join the pants pissers to and say that this postseason got worse by the round.
   34. Dr. Vaux Posted: October 29, 2012 at 07:26 AM (#4287139)
Now I'm just glad it's over.

Who was the best team in baseball this year? Probably the Nationals, I guess. Maybe the Yankees, despite how they played in their last four games. And how long has it been since the best team won the World Series? The Yankees in 2009 might have been the best team. The Red Sox in 2004 probably were, though the Cardinals were close.
   35. John Northey Posted: October 29, 2012 at 07:34 AM (#4287141)
I had very little interest in this WS but more because neither team really gets me excited one way or the other plus the sweep which started with a blowout. Sweeps are dull by their nature - once you get to 3-0 it seems a waste of time.

Sweeps since the playoffs expanded in 1969: 2012, 2007, 2005,2004, 1999,1998, 1990,1989, 1976. Pre-1989 it was rare, since it has been fairly common, especially in the past decade (4 sweeps in past 9 years). Wonder if anything can be done to prevent sweeps? Could it be that the longer the playoffs the more likely the final is a sweep?
   36. OsunaSakata Posted: October 29, 2012 at 07:52 AM (#4287145)
It's a cliche to say the losing team in a series just didn't try hard enough, but what other conclusion can you draw? The Tigers didn't show up at all. They didn't care. So why should I?


This is easy to say now, but the Tigers lost as least four games or scored eight runs over at least four games three times this season.
Apr 22-27 TEX (2-3) SEA (4-7, 1-9, 4-5) NYY (6-7)
Jun 20-24 STL (1-3, 2-1) PIT (1-4, 1-4, 3-2)
Sep 7-10 LAoA (2-3, 1-6, 2-3)) CHW (1-6)
So this has happened before. They just picked a really bad time to play bad again.

Given the poor track records of teams who sweep in the LCS, would MLB allow them to hold a full-up exhibition game against their minor leaguers? So I'm talking about charging at least half-price, all the bells and whistles in the stadium, broadcasting, etc. to keep the team's emotional level running high. Maybe even outfit the minor leaguers in the uniforms of the potential opponents and use the other league's DH rules.
   37. Shooty Survived the Shutdown of '14! Posted: October 29, 2012 at 07:52 AM (#4287147)
Were you not entertained!

I was. I'm biased but the Giants played good baseball and that's always entertaining. What's better than baseball played at the highest level? It was also fun to watch the slowly unfolding exposure of RMc as a massive crybaby.

Anyway, it was a great baseball season. Seriously, I hope the Royals and Pirates can do next year what the A's and O's did this year. The people who have stuck with those teams deserve a miracle run. It's ridiculous how much fun pennant race baseball can be because of the daily drama.
   38. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: October 29, 2012 at 08:07 AM (#4287153)
It was also fun to watch the slowly unfolding exposure of RMc as a massive crybaby.

Oh, hush. As if you wouldn't feel the same if it had been your team falling apart like this. Yes, I get upset when my team -- a team that's made the final round exactly three times in the last 40 years -- gets creamed in front of the whole country. So kill me.

Given the poor track records of teams who sweep in the LCS, would MLB allow them to hold a full-up exhibition game against their minor leaguers?

The player's union would never allow it, and if they did, somebody would get hurt, and that would be the end of that. The Tigers didn't lose because they were "rusty"; it was a combination of their best pitcher getting clobbered and bad luck, after which the whole team gave up. Sad.

Might as well make this prediction now: the Tigers will not return to the World Series in the next ten years.
   39. Bitter Mouse Posted: October 29, 2012 at 08:08 AM (#4287154)
The Bay Area has had some good sports the last few years. I think it was a great series, but I am biased.
   40. BochysFingers Posted: October 29, 2012 at 08:10 AM (#4287155)
So my favorite team, the Giants, has won their 2nd WS in 3 years, and all most of you have to say was that the series was boring or that the Giants really weren't that good.

Is this site now owned by FOX or ESPN? Sheesh, talk about east coast bias.
   41. Rants Mulliniks Posted: October 29, 2012 at 08:17 AM (#4287157)
I tried my damnedest, but I fell asleep during every game. I didn't have a dog in the fight, but I can't say it was an overly entertaining series. Cocgrats to the Giants though, their pitchers made the Tigers offense look like '72 Padres.
   42. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: October 29, 2012 at 08:22 AM (#4287159)
Congrats again to the Giants and their fans. San Francisco played great.

The Tigers played badly. To say they didn't try is ridiculous. They just got beat by a team that pitched well, fielded well, and put together some good at bats when they needed them.

As a Tigers fan, I'm very grateful for a wonderful season full of incredible individual performances, memorable games and moments, and an American League pennant. And Delmon Young and Phil Coke. The team has some holes but with some legit superstars and Victor Martinez coming back, we could be even better next season.
   43. boteman is here Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:03 AM (#4287181)
I ain't paying no 50 cents for no Coke.
   44. Anonymous Observer Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:04 AM (#4287182)
That's because it was. Worst. World. Series. Ever. Pathetic.


I can now sleep at night knowing that 2006 is no longer the most pathetic World Series ever.
   45. Ray (RDP) Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:08 AM (#4287185)
Love the people popping in with nothing else to say than how boring the World Series was. The last three games were 2-0, 2-0, 4-3. The other game was historic in that it included three home runs by one player. What exactly are you complaining about? Need more dingers?


The World Series was a snooze. The Tigers couldn't hit at all, and therefore even though the games were close they weren't interesting.

Shooty: No, I didn't find it entertaining at all, other than perhaps late innings Game 4, by which time it was clear anyway that It was Over.

Sandoval hit 3 home runs? Who cares. I care about what the team is doing, not what a player is doing. Other players have hit 3 home runs in a game. Who cares that it came in the WS?
   46. John DiFool2 Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:12 AM (#4287188)
I'd bet this will have been the lowest-rated WS in history-anyone got any figures?
   47. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:15 AM (#4287190)
The lesson of the modern postseason is that once you get on a bit of a run, it can last a series and once you go into a lull, it can last a series. The Tigers sweeping the Yankees was nice, but the postseason as a whole is barely even baseball (*), even when my favorite team and second/third favorite team make it to the "World Series."

(*) And thus, Ray has a decent point with his railings against it as "exhibitions." I wouldn't go quite that far, but as a signaling mechanism for quality, the postseason is all but worthless.

   48. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:20 AM (#4287192)
I'd bet this will have been the lowest-rated WS in history-anyone got any figures?

The first game was -- rating a little over 7, share around 14. Didn't see the ratings for Games 2, 3, or 4.
   49. bunyon Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:24 AM (#4287195)
It just wasn't much of a series. To say otherwise is to stick your head in the sand. The Giants played really well and the Tigers played pretty poorly (as in most sweeps - 2005 was quite an exception to that). That isn't to take anything away from the Giants.

But in none of the first three games did it ever feel like the Tigers were in it. Sure, the scores were relatively close for two of those but the way the Tigers were hitting, it seemed a bigger lead. Game 4 was a very good game. But a really good game in the last game of a sweep just can't be all that exciting. If Game 4 happens in Game 3 instead, it's a much better series.

The entirety of the season and the playoffs were great though. Nothing really to complain about.
   50. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:25 AM (#4287196)
Crawford, Belt and Blanco all played some nice defense in the last couple of games. Buck and McCarver seemed better than usual, but maybe it's some twisted sort of Stockholm Syndrome.
   51. BDC Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:26 AM (#4287198)
And how long has it been since the best team won the World Series? The Yankees in 2009 might have been the best team. The Red Sox in 2004 probably were, though the Cardinals were close

I think that the Red Sox in 2007 were as comprehensive a champion as we've had in a while. Tied for the best record in the majors, and taken to seven in the ALCS by the team they were tied with, but otherwise clearly superior.

For this year, why not the Giants? They won 94 games in the regular season, after all; it's not like they came out of nowhere. They can "beat you in a lot of ways": power, defense, manufacturing runs, fine pitching (though with some puzzling off-years like Lincecum's). It was a very close season, with as many as ten teams not much behind whoever was best.
   52. RMc is a fine piece of cheese Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:28 AM (#4287200)
I'd bet this will have been the lowest-rated WS in history

Isn't it always?

Here's the latest version of the "World Series on FOX sucks, ain't nobody watching" story.
   53. JL Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:29 AM (#4287201)
Both the Astros in '05 and the Tigers, in this edition, assumed a pitiful posture, seemingly overwhelmed by both the moment and the opposing pitching staffs.

Sorry, but this is just uniformed. Anyone who has watched the Tigers knows this is par for the course. They can be very good offensively, yet turn around and show ineptitude just like this (see losing 6 of 7 against the Royals, Angels, and White Sox, never scoring more than 2 runs in the losses). The fact is that Detroit is a good but flawed team. They were only 11th in runs this year. The idea that they were overwhelmed by the moment is just silly.

My big irritation is the "experts" calling this a upset. SF is also a good team, and I thought they were pretty evenly matched. I think the Tigers were favored because people assumed that sweeping the Yankees (even though they are not the Yankees people think they are) meant something more than it did. I thought it was pretty insulting to SF.

Congrationaltions to the Giants. Great season.
   54. Steve Balboni's Personal Trainer Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:31 AM (#4287203)
This is the least engaged I've been in a baseball season since 1982, when I became a baseball fan. As a lifelong Red Sox, one can probably understand why I've just wanted to look away from the hometown implosion that was the 2012 Red Sox.

However, in the past, I've turned some of my "Red Sox" bandwidth to other baseball team or stories. In 2012, that has not been the case.

I think the most interesting team of 2012 was probably the Washington Nationals. Between Harper, Strasburg, Gonzalez, the whole return of playoff baseball to Washington, the rebuilding of the franchise, etc., it was a very entertaining story to follow all year. The problem there: once Strasburg was shut down, you got the sense that the playoff version of the Nats was different enough from the regular-season version to dramatically lower their chances of winning it all.

The Orioles were a good story, I guess, but they were such a statistical outlier that I still don't take them seriously. They should gone about .500, and outside of having an excellent bullpen, this team was not much better than, say, Toronto. Tampa is a lot better than Baltimore.

I wondered what it would be like to see a Triple Crown winner in my lifetime, as I was not born when Yaz did it in '67. Cabrera's effort, while extremely impressive, did not captivate me whatsoever. He's not a compelling personality or player, and he is - in my opinion - obviously neither the best player of 2012, nor the most valuable "property" in baseball. If you were building a team for 2013, would he be one of the first five guys you'd pick?

The most important, lasting story of 2012 is summed up in two words: Mike Trout. What he did was truly singular and amazing.
   55. Juilin Sandar to Conkling Speedwell (Arjun) Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:33 AM (#4287204)
The last three games were 2-0, 2-0, 4-3. The other game was historic in that it included three home runs by one player. What exactly are you complaining about? Need more dingers?

I agree. As I mentioned at the beginning of the game 4 chatter, I like low-scoring games, I like pitching, and I really enjoyed watching the series (even if it was on starting after midnight here). For me, this has been one of the more fun seasons in general in recent memory (especially the last couple of months), even with the fact that my Cubs were really, really awful for pretty much the whole year (clarification EDIT: obviously, I've had more fun with the Cubs recently, but not in general in baseball). Opinions diverge, though, clearly (*looks at post directly above*).
   56. bunyon Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4287206)
For this year, why not the Giants? They won 94 games in the regular season, after all

Absolutely. Division winner. Win total within a game or two of best in the game. They aren't cheap in any way.


As to the Triple Crown being captivating, I'd never considered it - since I, too, had never seen one - but, of course, it isn't captivating. You can't really know until the last week or two if the guy will even be in those three races and, by then, you have the larger, and much more important, narrative of the pennant races. It's really cool and I'm glad he did it. But I can't see a way that becomes something upon which to hang a season.
   57. The Id of SugarBear Blanks Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:35 AM (#4287207)
The Giants are a better and more complete team than the Tigers. I'm not sure we needed the "World Series" to know that.
   58. dr. scott Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:38 AM (#4287209)
So was the best series Detroit-Oakland, Cards Nats, Giants-Reds, or Yankees -O's? I only saw all the games for Detroits -As, and the last one was no nail biter. I saw a bunch of the Giants -reds, but I don't remember them being real close either apart from game 3. I guess it's down to Yanks -O's and Cards-Nats... But the bad guys won those series.

I will say this though, the party's in the street last night in my neighborhood were pretty impressive. Bars giving everyone champagne, and some crazy 300 lb dudes with over 30 minutes of fireworks. One sent flaming sparks right over my head.

Good times.
   59. Bourbon Samurai Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:42 AM (#4287210)
For four game sweep, that was a pretty fun series. Tigers should be just as good next year, and they'll have Victor Martinez back.
   60. bunyon Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:53 AM (#4287213)
For four game sweep, that was a pretty fun series.

Right. There is just a limit to as how fun and exciting a sweep can be.

I wouldn't say I didn't enjoy it - it's baseball and the last we'll see for awhile. It's just that I could have enjoyed it more.
   61. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 29, 2012 at 09:55 AM (#4287215)
For this year, why not the Giants? They won 94 games in the regular season,
\

...in the tougher league. :)
   62. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 29, 2012 at 10:04 AM (#4287219)
If you were building a team for 2013, would he be one of the first five guys you'd pick?


Assuming no pitchers:
Trout
McCutchen
Harper
Braun
Posey

Any other candidates? I'd take Cabrera over Tulo, Castro, Hanley, Longoria, Pedroia, Mauer, probably Cano. Miggy's durable, consistent, and still in his prime.
   63. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 29, 2012 at 10:11 AM (#4287224)
One reason the series wasn't that much fun is the lack of sustained rallies. It seemed like every run was scored on a home run which was followed one minute later by the end of the inning.

The last game was the only one it seemed like the Tigers might win, and, you know, their hopes were already mostly gone.
   64. fra paolo Posted: October 29, 2012 at 10:17 AM (#4287225)
I think the Tigers were favored because people assumed that sweeping the Yankees (even though they are not the Yankees people think they are) meant something more than it did.

I think the Tigers were favoured because they had better starting pitchers. They would still have been favoured if the ALCS had gone to seven games.

EDIT: And three of those starting pitchers did fairly well against the Giants.
   65. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: October 29, 2012 at 10:19 AM (#4287226)
Sorry, but this is just uniformed ... The idea that they were overwhelmed by the moment is just silly.


Yeah. To paraphrase Buck Showalter, you guys just don't understand how hard this is, do you?

The fact is that Detroit is a good but flawed team.


All the good teams this year were also flawed. That's what balance looks like.

My big irritation is the "experts" calling this a upset. SF is also a good team, and I thought they were pretty evenly matched. I think the Tigers were favored because people assumed that sweeping the Yankees (even though they are not the Yankees people think they are) meant something more than it did. I thought it was pretty insulting to SF.


I think it was more a case of the "experts" thinking that Verlander was unbeatable, meaning that the series was just a matter of winning two out of five for the Tigers. Had Verlander dominated game 1 and games 2-4 gone the same way, a lot of "experts" would be talking about the Giants 3-1 lead being pretty tenuous this morning.

   66. fra paolo Posted: October 29, 2012 at 10:26 AM (#4287229)
Had Verlander dominated game 1 and games 2-4 gone the same way, a lot of "experts" would be talking about the Giants 3-1 lead being pretty tenuous this morning.

I agree with this completely. We'd be hearing about how Cabrera was now going to bust loose, and once that happened, Fielder would likely follow suit. The Tigers are at home, Verlander is pitching, they were only down by 2 runs with the same pitchers in games 2 and 3, etc.
   67. Mayor Blomberg Posted: October 29, 2012 at 10:30 AM (#4287231)

Sweeps since the playoffs expanded in 1969: 2012, 2007, 2005,2004, 1999,1998, 1990,1989, 1976. Pre-1989 it was rare


Sweeps in 27,28,32, 38, 39 all by the same team. good times, those.
   68. Davo Dozier Posted: October 29, 2012 at 10:36 AM (#4287232)
I'm surprised to learn that the 7 (or so) most boring World Series of all time all happened to take place over the past 15 years. What were the odds?!?
   69. Mike Emeigh Posted: October 29, 2012 at 10:42 AM (#4287233)
The player's union would never allow it, and if they did, somebody would get hurt, and that would be the end of that.


In 1946, this is essentially what happened. The Red Sox had to wait for the outcome of the Cardinals/Dodgers pennant playoff and to stay sharp they scheduled some exhibitions against a team of AL All-Stars. In the second of those games, Ted Williams was hit on the elbow by Washington pitcher Mickey Haefner, and although Williams always denied that it impacted his WS performance, he did hit poorly in the Series, especially against St. Louis's left-handers.

-- MWE
   70. Don Malcolm Posted: October 29, 2012 at 10:53 AM (#4287237)
Let's see: weren't excited by the chance that a hitter actually came up to the plate in a game with a chance to do something never done before in a WS (hit 4 HR in a game)?

Put off by the fact that the team with the most wins in either league didn't wind up in the WS (as if this has never happened since the creation of divisional play)?

Bored by tense, low-scoring pitching duels because there's not enough "action"?

Grinding one's teeth because your team continues to underperform frustratingly in the WS?

Or just needing a way to spread a little ill will as we go off into the long, cold night of the off-season?

The Tigers absolutely needed to win Game 3. The historical record indicates that (the Red Sox miracle in '04 notwithstanding) you are doomed if you go down 0-3. In the WS, only three teams who've been down 0-3 have managed to win Game 4 and none of them were able to win Game 5. It is what it is, and we await another glorious exception.

It would have been nicer to have a longer WS--it's always worth it when it comes down to Game 7. Being deprived of those three games is always disappointing.
   71. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 29, 2012 at 11:00 AM (#4287240)
I actually prefer sweeps where the losing team is throughly demolished, like the '07 Rockies,


The 2007 World Series was actually an awful lot like this one: A blowout in Game One, followed by close games in the next three. Two of the last three games were one-run losses, and the other one was 6-5 in the eighth, before the Red Sox pulled away.
   72. Jorge Luis Bourjos (Walewander) Posted: October 29, 2012 at 11:19 AM (#4287257)
Cabrera's effort, while extremely impressive, did not captivate me whatsoever. He's not a compelling personality or player

Are you thinking of Jolbert Cabrera or something? Daniel Cabrera? Cause you can't be talking about Miguel Cabrera here.
   73. Booey Posted: October 29, 2012 at 11:43 AM (#4287277)
Back-to-back shutouts, for the first time since 1966. Utterly inept hitting. A pervasive sense of gloom. Need more?


Time to do away with steroid testing so we can get back to 90's levels of offense, apparently...
   74. JL Posted: October 29, 2012 at 11:44 AM (#4287279)
I think it was more a case of the "experts" thinking that Verlander was unbeatable, meaning that the series was just a matter of winning two out of five for the Tigers. Had Verlander dominated game 1 and games 2-4 gone the same way, a lot of "experts" would be talking about the Giants 3-1 lead being pretty tenuous this morning.

And it would still be ill-informed. If Verlander dominates in game 1, the Tigers at best win 1-0, and still could have lost that game. The problem was not the Tiger pitching, it was their hitting. Offensively, the Tigers are just not that good.

   75. Booey Posted: October 29, 2012 at 11:51 AM (#4287287)
Cabrera's effort, while extremely impressive, did not captivate me whatsoever. He's not a compelling personality or player

I don't get this at all. For the last 9 years, Miggy's been one of the most durable and consistently awesome hitters in MLB. He continues to do what he does every year without fail, while playing almost every game, switching positions, gaining 150 pounds, etc. I'd put him on a very short list of the most impressive hitters I've ever seen. And I'm glad that when the Triple Crown was finally won, it was done by a perennial contender for the accomplishment rather than a flukishly great season by a lesser hitter (like it may have been if Kemp had won it last year).
   76. McCoy Posted: October 29, 2012 at 11:55 AM (#4287293)
So who won the WS MVP? I'm guessing Pablo. Did he do anything outside of the first game? I really have idea because I haven't been paying attention and for a moment there I thought it was Miguel who hit 3 home runs.
   77. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: October 29, 2012 at 11:57 AM (#4287295)
And it would still be ill-informed.


Yep. Just differently-ill-informed.

So who won the WS MVP?


Panda.

EDIT:

Did he do anything outside of the first game?


4-for-12 with a walk; no runs or rbi.
   78. Crispix reaches boiling point with lackluster play Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:00 PM (#4287302)
Are you thinking of Jolbert Cabrera or something? Daniel Cabrera? Cause you can't be talking about Miguel Cabrera here.

Daniel Cabrera was pretty compelling in his day.
   79. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:02 PM (#4287306)
I haven't seen any mention of it, but 2012 put Miguel Cabrera into the Hall of Fame, right? He's got ten seasons under his belt now, and I think he passes the bus test. This year will mark the sixth time in ten years that he's in the Top Five for the MVP vote. He's not exactly a poor man's Albert Pujols - maybe a mortal Albert Pujols is the best way to look at it.

Cabrera has gotten MVP votes every single year of his career, with the streak at ten as of this year's voting. What's the most consecutive seasons from the start of one's career to be mentioned in the MVP voting? DiMaggio had 12. Williams had 10, broken only by the 1952 season where he played only six games; he even got votes in 1953, when he played in 37 games. Pujols is at 11, but I imagine he'll probably break the string this year.
   80. bunyon Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:03 PM (#4287307)
I think Cabrera is a great and interesting player. I just think there can be no real build up to the Triple Crown. No one really talked him up much up until three or so weeks left. By which time we were all paying a lot more attention to division and wild card races. Notably, Detroit wrapped up a little earlier than the others. Not to mention he took the lead with a week or more left and never let go. It just wasn't terribly compelling in the way that we imagine it to be. My guess is none of the others were, either.
   81. Harveys Wallbangers Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:11 PM (#4287313)
tom

hank had votes in 19 straight seasons

but not from the start of his career.
   82. Booey Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:12 PM (#4287314)
I haven't seen any mention of it, but 2012 put Miguel Cabrera into the Hall of Fame, right? He's got ten seasons under his belt now, and I think he passes the bus test. This year will mark the sixth time in ten years that he's in the Top Five for the MVP vote. He's not exactly a poor man's Albert Pujols - maybe a mortal Albert Pujols is the best way to look at it.


I remember watching Cabrera hit homers in the 2003 postseason with the Marlins and hearing people say that he's going to be the next Manny Ramirez, so that's always the comp that sticks in my mind - a more durable Man-Ram without the failed PED tests. That puts Miggy in the "near-lock" category for the HOF, no?
   83. BDC Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:24 PM (#4287328)
2012 put Miguel Cabrera into the Hall of Fame, right?

Here's a quick bus list for Cabrera, similar hitters ranked by WAR Fielding Runs. There aren't many similar careers because players that good tend to stick around a lot longer:

Player              Rfield   PA OPS+  3B  SB     Pos
Elmer Flick             30 6414  149 164 330  
*98/47
Hank Greenberg          17 6097  158  71  58     
*37
Darryl Strawberry       
-8 6326  138  38 221  *9D/78
Babe Herman            
-31 6228  141 110  94    *937
Jack Fournier          
-31 6033  142 113 146 *3/7981
Ralph Kiner            
-40 6256  149  39  22   *7/83
Miguel Cabrera         
-59 6474  151  13  33  3579/D
Albert Belle           
-63 6676  144  21  88    *79D 


The cases of Strawberry and Belle would seem to indicate that it's not a guarantee that a player that good would waltz into the HOF if hit by the bus. Both of their careers were hit by injury and illness, and though they wouldn't win any citizenship awards either, they weren't given much sympathy by HOF voters for careers truncated through no fault of their own. Flick was, though only in his extreme old age, as a Veteran's selection.
   84. Nasty Nate Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:26 PM (#4287329)
Why not just wait for the rest of his career before trying to figure it out?
   85. My name is Votto, and I love to get blotto Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:28 PM (#4287334)
Miggy's personal life is a little rough around the edges, but he comes to play every day and rakes.

#79 Pujols had the worst season of his life but still went 30 HRs/100 RBI. I've gotta think he'll get some down-ballot votes.
   86. BFFB Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:44 PM (#4287355)
As to the Triple Crown being captivating, I'd never considered it - since I, too, had never seen one - but, of course, it isn't captivating. You can't really know until the last week or two if the guy will even be in those three races and, by then, you have the larger, and much more important, narrative of the pennant races. It's really cool and I'm glad he did it. But I can't see a way that becomes something upon which to hang a season.


Cabrera is a player who does everything, hitting wise, to an outstanding level but is not otherworldly/notable at any one particular facet. He wasn't a monster home run hitter who lucked into a high average, or a high average medium power guy who uncharacteristically hit a lot of home runs. He did what he always does and kind of just got their by default because no one was better at any of the individual facets to beat him. Ultimately what I'm trying to say is that while an outstanding player, Cabrera just isn't that interesting in any way.
   87. BDC Posted: October 29, 2012 at 12:58 PM (#4287370)

Why not just wait for the rest of his career before trying to figure it out?


Because the World Series just ended and there is nothing else to do for the next five months :)
   88. Nasty Nate Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:03 PM (#4287374)
ha, fair enough!
   89. Tom Nawrocki Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:04 PM (#4287378)
The cases of Strawberry and Belle would seem to indicate that it's not a guarantee that a player that good would waltz into the HOF if hit by the bus.


We all love Darryl Strawberry, but I don't think he's a very good comp. For one thing, 13 points of OPS+ is kind of a lot. For another, Strawberry's weakness as an offensive player was has batting average, which isn't a good weakness to have if you want to get into the Hall of Fame. Cabrera is, to this point, outhitting Strawberry by 60 points of BA. (Note too that Miggy already has more plate appearances than Strawberry would get in his entire career.)

Belle is a better comp, but then again, Cabrera is not the Most Hated Man in Baseball.

   90. Matt Clement of Alexandria Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:07 PM (#4287380)
Belle is a better comp, but then again, Cabrera is not the Most Hated Man in Baseball.
No, but he's not Kirby Puckett either. A career ending injury would most likely leave Cabrera on the outside looking in. All he needs to do is play pretty well for several more years, but I don't think he's a dead lock yet.
   91. bunyon Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4287381)
Besides, while Miggy had high expectations, I don't think they were as high as Strawberry's. People don't think back to Strawberry's career and think he was very good, maybe great, they think, damn, he should have been Willie Mays.
   92. jack the seal clubber (on the sidelines of life) Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:08 PM (#4287382)
Sorry, but this is just uniformed


I thought all the teams had to wear uniforms.
   93. BDC Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:20 PM (#4287392)
We all love Darryl Strawberry, but I don't think he's a very good comp. For one thing, 13 points of OPS+ is kind of a lot

True; he's on the list because I had to keep widening the range even to get seven careers as comps. His defense and speed do make up some of the gap, I reckon, but Cabrera has 44 WAR right now to Strawberry's total 39. That gap would be narrower if we zeroed out the "years" where Strawberry had considerable negative WAR in a handful of games. Opinions differ on whether one should do that in judging players, I know, but one might not think it matters too much that Tommy Lasorda gave Strawberry 100 AB to hit .140 in 1993, any more than if Strawberry had played in the indie minors or not at all that year.

Fortunately the odds are great that no bus will hit Cabrera, and he'll pull down another 35 HR and 120 RBI next year, and move into a different part of the bus :)
   94. Booey Posted: October 29, 2012 at 01:31 PM (#4287409)
Cabrera is a player who does everything, hitting wise, to an outstanding level but is not otherworldly/notable at any one particular facet. He wasn't a monster home run hitter who lucked into a high average, or a high average medium power guy who uncharacteristically hit a lot of home runs. He did what he always does and kind of just got their by default because no one was better at any of the individual facets to beat him.


That's actually what I DO find interesting about him though. He didn't just have a Triple Crown season; he's a Triple Crown type of player. This was a pretty typical season for him (well, the homers and rbi's were career highs, but not by much). According to OPS+, he was a better hitter in each of the last two seasons.

To me, winning the TC just seems a little more legit when it's won by a player who's always amongst the league leaders in all 3 categories rather than if it were done by someone having a career year that's well beyond his normal level of performance, like say Fred Lynn in 1979 or Adrian Beltre in 2004 (though Beltre's performance the last few years has started to make that season look at least slightly less flukey).

   95. Bourbon Samurai Posted: October 29, 2012 at 02:03 PM (#4287448)
The WS and LCS weren't super exciting, but the LDS round was the most exciting we've had yet. I also really like the play-in game and the consequences it added to losing the division- the A's running down the Rangers was HUGELY exciting and mainly because of the play-in game.
   96. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: October 29, 2012 at 02:19 PM (#4287457)
the A's running down the Rangers was HUGELY exciting and mainly because of the play-in game.


I guess people will never stop saying this, facts be damned. Without the second WC the losers of the east and west division races would have been facing the very real possibility of missing the playoffs completely. And ofc ourse, as it turned out the losers of those two divisions finished with identical records and would have played a tie-breaker anyway. I don't doubt that the new format will have the desired effect on some divisional races in the near future, but how on earth does anyone conclude that the play-in game consolation prize made this year's AL races any more compelling?
   97. Walt Davis Posted: October 29, 2012 at 05:55 PM (#4287684)
We've had the Miggy hit-by-bus discussion earlier this year. The Triple Crown would presumably help him with the current crop of voters if it happened and he might win an MVP this year which would be a big step but ignoring the TC (because I find it really hard to guess how much it would help) my memory from my last look at this is something like:

If he has Nomar's (or Belle's or similar) "late" career then he doesn't make it.
If he has Cepeda's late career, he's at least borderline. (111 HR, 116 OPS+, 429 RBI)*
If he has Griffey's late career, he sails in**

Obviously it's rare and the sign of a great hitter, but what Cabrera has done through age 29 isn't so phenomenal as to be in hit-by-bus territory. He's got a career 151 OPS+ but that's 24 points behind Mantle and 21 points behind Pujols. As a hitter, he's basically the same as Aaron and Robinson through those ages but those guys are GREAT because they never declined. Cabrera's 151 OPS+ career is also very similar to Mathews (154), Griffey (149) and ARod (145) but those guys played more defensive positions (yes, Miggy is back at 3B so Mathews is debatable) and Griffey and ARod added some baserunning speed too.

If you expand that list to "first 10 years of career" from "through age 29" (and first 10 years is the hit by bus crowd), you can also add that he's 18 points behind Thomas, 8 points behind Bagwell (who brought running and D), 8 behind Bonds (same), 7 behind Mays, 6 behind DiMaggio and 1 ahead of Reggie.

The best comp to the hit-by-bus Cabrera on that list is Kiner who's one of the HoF's true "HBB" candidates, helped by winning 7 HR titles. This is where the TC and an MVP might push HBB Miggy over the line. Kiner did make it but in his last year of eligibility, thanks to a 17(!) point jump in a very weak ballot year (1975).

Now, before anybody misunderstands, his list of comps is dominated by HoFers. Obviously Miggy having an age 30+ career that's at least as good as Cepeda's is a very high probability and he may not even need one that good. He is undeniably on an HoF track. It's just really, really hard, maybe impossible, to build an ironclad HoF case in 10 years.

*Cepeda's 30+ leaves him short of 450 HR and only about 2500 hits, but maintaining the 300 BA and over 1500 RBI. Billy Williams give or take. The TC and a MVP would be more than enough to push him over I'd think. Actually Williams is an interesting comp -- Cabrera is younger and therefore better but from ages 25-34, Williams had a 141 OPS+, 300/366/519 line, nearly 1900 hits, 1000 runs, 1000 RBI, 307 HR. Those are pretty comparable stats to Cabrera ... what Cabrera has done in 10 years is not that different than what a lot of outer-circle HoFers did for 10 years and it seems almost certain to me that Williams doesn't make it without padding his counting stats even though those extra years were pretty average (116 OPS+ in 5-6 seasons worth of PA).

** Griffey's 30+ puts him at about 550 HR, 1800 RBI, 2800 hits, might lose the 300 BA. That's Frank Robinson by counting stats.

   98. Morph Posted: October 30, 2012 at 06:08 PM (#4288724)
Prince Fielder is a key component of the Tigers' offense and had one atrocious at-bat after another. I don't see how its 'uninformed' of me to observe he was pressing. I want to make it clear that I'm not questioning the Tigers' fortitude. I think they had a rough four games, and their psyches played a role. Were they a superb offensive team all season? Nope. Overrated, sure. But if you think my analysis is simplistic, I feel the same about the sheer laziness of saying "that's baseball," "bad week." Come on. Of course Buck Showalter, a manager, is going to spout that kind of accountability skirting rationalization. It protects the players. When Prince Fielder is swinging at a fastball on his fists while ahead of the count, its not just "good pitching beats mediocore hitting." All due respect for Detroit, as well. Great year, winning the Pennant.
   99. cercopithecus aethiops Posted: October 30, 2012 at 06:36 PM (#4288744)
I think the objection was primarily to the phrase "overwhelmed by the moment." The implications of that statement go well beyond "they had a rough four games, and their psyches played a role" IMO. If that wasn't your intent, fair enough, but it sure sounded like you were questioning their fortitude.
   100. Morph Posted: October 30, 2012 at 06:48 PM (#4288753)
99. You are right. I actually wanted to add that to my comment above, but my internet is out and my phone isn't responding to the 'edit post' button. Yes, my first post was way too hard on the Tigers. Now I think my second post is way too hard on the posters who took my post to task. Sigh. The futility.

You must be Registered and Logged In to post comments.

 

 

<< Back to main

BBTF Partner

Support BBTF

donate

Thanks to
Vegas Watch
for his generous support.

Bookmarks

You must be logged in to view your Bookmarks.

Hot Topics

NewsblogThe Baseball Show with Rany Jazayerli and Joe Sheehan - 9/29/14
(9 - 2:02am, Oct 02)
Last: Dr. Vaux

NewsblogA’s wild swing of a season ends in wild-card loss to Royals
(37 - 2:00am, Oct 02)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogFangraphs (Sullivan): How Jarrod Dyson Stole The Biggest Base Of His Life
(15 - 1:36am, Oct 02)
Last: Golfing Great Mitch Cumstein

NewsblogDog eats baseball playoff tickets
(7 - 1:32am, Oct 02)
Last: Joyful Calculus Instructor

NewsblogAdam Dunn, 34, calls it a career
(73 - 1:31am, Oct 02)
Last: PreservedFish

NewsblogWSJ: Playoff Hateability Index
(36 - 1:18am, Oct 02)
Last: DFA

NewsblogBaseball Will Test Out Six New Rules To Speed Up The Game
(46 - 1:17am, Oct 02)
Last: dejarouehg

NewsblogOT: Monthly NBA Thread - October 2014
(26 - 1:13am, Oct 02)
Last: Gold Star - just Gold Star

NewsblogBP: 2014 Internet Baseball Awards
(3 - 12:58am, Oct 02)
Last: Yoenis Cespedes, Baseball Savant

NewsblogPosnanski: The Beauty of Belief [Royals win Wild Card, headed to ALDS]
(8 - 12:29am, Oct 02)
Last: Walt Davis

NewsblogUNR study: Temperature affects baseball scores
(9 - 12:24am, Oct 02)
Last: BochysFingers

NewsblogSpector: Stats incredible! Numbers from the 2014 MLB season will amaze you
(69 - 12:22am, Oct 02)
Last: Jarrod HypnerotomachiaPoliphili(Teddy F. Ballgame)

NewsblogOT: The Soccer Thread, September 2014
(492 - 12:06am, Oct 02)
Last: CWS Keith plans to boo your show at the Apollo

NewsblogDayton Moore's vision for Kansas Royals validated - ESPN
(49 - 12:04am, Oct 02)
Last: zack

NewsblogNL WILD CARD 2014 OMNICHATTER
(283 - 12:03am, Oct 02)
Last: tshipman

Page rendered in 0.8714 seconds
52 querie(s) executed