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Baseball Primer Newsblog— The Best News Links from the Baseball Newsstand
Monday, April 30, 2012
Last year Hamilton stole 103 bases in 135 games at low Single-A and was caught just 20 times, which is an incredible amount of running … until you look at what he’s done so far this year.
Hamilton has played 23 games at high Single-A and he’s stolen 29 bases. Seriously, he has 29 steals in 23 games. Oh, and he’s also hitting .398 with a 1.072 OPS. Hamilton is on pace to swipe 182 bases at an 83 percent clip, which is beyond absurd. And for his pro career he now has 194 steals in 270 games.
Sam Miller’s facts on Billy Hamilton are fun. He has scored on a sacrifice fly from second base. He has scored on a strikeout. He once flipped a switch and was in bed before the lights turned out. He is faster than Matt Wieters.
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2) Hamilton slugged .360 in A ball as a 20-year old. Snead didn't make it to A-ball until he was 22, and he never slugged over .330 anywhere in the minors.
Being way better than Esix Snead doesn't make you a prospect, but Hamilton is indeed way better than Snead.
I think, indeed, that Hamilton is a serious prospect. He also draws walks (about one per 10 AB, and much better than that so far this year), and so far this year he's rocking an iso of nearly .200 with 11 extra-base hits in 23 games. That's pretty exciting.
Agreed on all accounts, but I think it's important to note that Hamilton's slugging is probably a bit deceptive. He's more than likely stretching singles into doubles and doubles into triples. Those bases count just as much, of course, but they won't have the same base clearing effect as a "true" extra base hit of the same value.
Of course, they do have value... in excitement!
For sure. How cool is it to be named Billy Hamilton?
I'd link to some Hall of Merit threads, but the ones that matter got butchered by the site changeover several years back. So I'll just have to settle for this.
Check out that 1894 line: 132 games, 702 PA, .403/.521/.523, 100 SB, 90 RBI, 198 runs scored. Yeah, scoring was totally insane in 1894 (pitchers had just been pushed back to the 60'6" rubber, most of a generation of previously dominant pitchers couldn't cope, gloves were primitive and many fielders still didn't wear gloves) but it's still quite a line.
I can't think he's stretching all that many plays--he wants to steal bases. Rickey! for instance never hit more than 7 triples in a season. He hit 4 triples the year he stole 130. He wasn't looking to make it to third until the pitcher had thrown the ball twice.
Wouldn't be surprised if the same is true for this kid.
I remember a few years ago the consensual fastest man in pro baseball was...
Joey Gathright...
Gathright hit .301/.384/.354 in the minors
Snead hit .231/.324/.297...
Gathright was a real prospect, not a very good one, but a prospect nonetheless, Snead, as a ballplayer, was a complete joke*.
Hamilton, so far, has an ISO of 104, which while not good, handily beats Gathright's 53. He doesn't walk as much, but who cares- Gathright as not going to draw walks at AAA/MLB because he was going to be challenged because he couldn't really hurt you with the bat, Gathright needed to be Ichiro and couldn't do it.
Upon closer inspection- Gathright's and Snead's walk and XBH rates were almost the same- Gathright struck out quite a bit less- I think simply putting the ball in play more often was what elevated him above Snead... Hamilton Ks a bit more than Gathright... but hits the ball a tad harder... hmmm
Oh, this is great. I want to see the video of this. Reminds me of the stuff we would get away with in Little League when we were 10. My brother used to just wander halfway between second and third after the pitch, because he knew that there was about a 10% chance they'd get him out, a 30% chance they'd run him back to second, and a 60% chance they'd screw up a rundown and he'd end up on third or scoring.
And he's already Sliding Billy Hamilton as far as I'm concerned. His namesake is one of those old-timers that I really would have loved to see play. That Phillies outfield of Thompson - Hamilton - Delahanty may still be the best outfield of All-Time.
Right-handed pull hitter.
In 1894 (yes, 1894 was an insane year), all three of them batted .400, and those weren't empty batting averages. In particular, Thompson slugged .696. Fourth outfielder Tuck Turner also batted .400.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hShuwSiJi98
BTW, I'm having trouble using the '<a>' button above in Chrome and don't remember the format the board uses (I know it's not HTML). Any help?
Seems like a move to CF, with his speed, might be for the best.
Also, his manager this year is Griffey Sr. which might help Billy learn some of the finer points of bag swiping.
He didn't hit a ton of doubles either.
For all his speed on the paths, Rickey didn't really put it to great use in the batter's box.
Maybe they can hire the shirtless guy in Baltimore.
How many is he supposed to hit?
For all his speed on the paths, Rickey didn't really put it to great use in the batter's box.
Because we know speed didn't factor into any of his singles, doubles, or triples?
It's pretty much HTML, but with "
[For instance, to make the above, you just put in
[url=http://www.google.com]This was awesome. It wasn't just a walk-off, it was the walk-off run in a game that was 0-0 at the time.
Billy walked.
Stole 2nd.
next batter failed at getting the sacrifice down.
Billy stole 3rd
Next batter hit a popup to the 2nd baseman, Billy scores. Game Over. 1-0 Bakersfield.
You can just use a normal HTML anchor tag
<a href="url here"></a>EDIT: Be sure to put the double quotes around the url. Otherwise it can get messed up if the url contains certain special characters.
As cool as if Bryce Harper's name was George Ruth.
Well, Rickey seemed to imply that he didn't care to run hard into third.
From his autobiography, "For me, stealing third is easier than stealing second. It's a shorter throw for the catcher, but I get a much bigger lead and need far fewer steps, seven steps instead of eleven. ... I've stolen third base 235 times. Nobody has ever gone after third base like I have. Most guys won't even try taking third."
Rickey had a low doubles total too.
He had good power, as evidenced by his 297 homers. That didn't translate into a lot of doubles. He never hit more than 33 in a season, five less than another righthanded hitter with a comparable number of career homers, Craig Biggio, averaged per 162.
For someone who swiped more bases than anyone else who ever played, and played for a very, very long time, he didn't have a great number of infield hits.* He didn't hit a lot of doubles. He didn't hit a lot of triples. And he didn't have a ton of ROE.*
I'm sure his speed played a role in some of those individual things, but it's hard to see where from the numbers.
* By comparison, Jeter (also righthanded, but not as fast), has a huge advantage in Infield Hits (440-236) and a smaller advantage on ROE (178-160). In about 1,000 fewer at bats.
Why the hell would they bother having the batter bunt him over?
The other problem with Gathright besides his utter lack of power was that he generally sucked at the skill aspects of baserunning and defense. All he had was his speed.
That was a good thread... unfortunately, it morphed into the usual suspects defending the scandalous corruption that swept Ben Harrison into office, but those wankers got their comeuppance in the succeeding election.
Biggio's BB per 162: 66
Hendersons' BB per 162: 115
From 1980 to 2001 Rickey averaged 131 games played.
From 1989 to 2007 Biggio averaged 147 games played.
From 1980 to 2001 Rickey averaged 470 AB per season.
From 1989 to 2007 Biggio averaged 565 AB per season.
From 1989 to 2007 the Astrodome/Minute Maid park was largely neutral when it came to doubles. 25.4 doubles hit at home per 500 AB and 25.1 per hit on the road.
From 1997 to 1995 the Coliseum/Yankee Stadium was only 19.7 doublers hit at home per 500 AB and 24 doubles hit on the road.
So Rickey played in fewer games per season, walked more, got less AB, and played in a park that severely depressed doubles for most of his career.
If you hit a line drive or a flyball how is your speed going to help you beat out a throw at first base? Rickey Henderson wasn't some Mark McLemore type player who beats the ball into the ground and then sprints to first. Rickey was a patient hitter who took walks and hit well.
Triples are largely dependant on era, stadium layout, and the type of hitter one is. Rickey Henderson was a right handed hitter playing in an era not conducive to triples. As a right handed hitter his natural side was left field. He simply wasn't going to be sending many balls rattling down the right field side.
Lance Johnson led the league in triples year after year for awhile. He batted from the left side.
Willie Wilson led the league several times, he was a switch hitter who had over 2/3 of his triple batting from the left side.
Gary Templeton was a switch hitter who led the league several times and again he hit 2/3 of his triples from the left side.
Jose Reyes is a switch hitter who has hit about 85% of his triples from the left side.
Leading the league in triples is mostly done by left handed hitters not right handed hitters.
Secondly I think you are confusing what a triple means today with what a triple meant in Cobb's day. A triple in Cobb's day was largely based on power and stadium. The fields were huge and the outfielders tended to play shallow. If you could knock one over their heads or crush one by them you had a triple or an inside the park homer. The people hitting the triples back then were not the Willie Wilson type hitters but the sluggers.
Stealing home is not really that common anymore. Again it is an era thing. In Cobb's day we have a lot more attempts and this theft then we do nowadays.
As for doubles I fail to see why being fast would make you lead the league in doubles. It can certainly help you stretch singles into doubles but why would it make you lead the league in doubles? Generally the top names in the leaderboards for doubles are not speedy little runners who stretch singles into doubles but line drive and power hitters who knock the ball to the wall.
Right handed batter playing in a modern era who takes walks and has pop is not going to lead the league in triples. Leading the league in triples is a left handed man's prize.
There have been 269 triples leaders, out of that there has been only less then a third of the names being of right handed hitters. That isn't a fluke.
Of the 71 different names for the RH who led the league only 13 of them were able to do it more then once. Of the 118 names that were not RH 37 of them did it more then once. 18% of the RH names did multiple times while 31% of the LH did it multiple times.
Pete Rose leads the world in hits yet he never led the league in triples and he only managed to lead the league in singles 3 times. Yet many people think of him as a great baserunner. So here is a guy that fits your example and yet he didn't do it. Heck, here is a guy who is probably better then your example and he didn't do it.
Or how about Derek Jeter? Lots of non-home run hits yet no league leading years in triples or doubles and only has two years leading the league in singles.
So here are two guys who are either average baserunners or better and yet neither one led the league in triples.
I don't get this. Because he had a lot of AB's (which is false incidentally)suddenly he should be banging out triples? Never mind that he is a right handed hitter and isn't a super speedy guy?
By the way for all this talk about all of Rickey's hits or AB you guys seem to fail to realize that A)Rickey only finised on the leaderboard for AB's once in his entire life, B)took a lot of walks, and C)usually missed at least 10% of his teams games each season.
From 1979 to 2003 there were 61 names atop the leaderboard. Of those 61 names a right handed player was the name atop the standings 14 times. So in Rickey's day it was even less likely for a RH hitter to be atop the leaderboard then normal.
By the way when Molitor got his 13 triples to tie for lead league he had 665 AB. When Ryne Sandberg got 19 to tie for the lead league he had 636 AB. When Dawson led the league, well, he never did, but when he was hitting triples he was getting over 600 AB. When Yount did it he had 578 AB and 621 AB. Rickey went over 600 once and only went over 500 8 other times in his 25 seasons. That generally happens when you walk a lot and miss a good chunk of games every year.
The 4 names you mention have one other thing in common besides hitting those triples and that is not wanting to take a walk.
the greatest baserunnners of all time should probably realize what they can and cannot do. There is an extremely small amount of doubles that can be stretched into triples. If you don't have the speed for it and the location of the hit is not right no amount of hustle or skill is going to stretch that double into a triple. By the way guess which side of the plate both Brady and Barry hit from. How do raw triple totals indicate how often a player stretched a double into a triple? What if 50 of Rickey's triples are stretched doubles? What if they are all stretched doubles?
I just did a quick study. I looked at the AL (quickly filters out most P) from 1979 to 2003 and in that time the average LH hitter had 30% more triples then the average RH hitter. The difference stays about the same if you setup an AB filter to get more of the regulars and less of the handful of at bats players.
A 30% bonus or penalty is pretty darn huge.
But they didn't have far less opportunities. Dawson consistently got more AB in season then Rickey did, same goes for Ryne. Secondly Stade Olympique where Andre got 3 of his 4 top finishes favored triples whereas the Coliseum and Yankee Stadium did not favor triples.
Sure it might mean they are better baserunners or it could mean Rickey was better at it. We have yet to prove that raw triple totals mean anything yet. I'm still don't see why a triple should be chalked up to baserunning skill. Where you hit the ball and how fast you are plays a much much greater part in getting a triple then baserunning skill.
If you match up Ryne and Rickey's career then Ryne for his career averaged 1 more triple per 500 AB's then Rickey. Andre Dawson gets about 2 more triples per 500 AB. That isn't a whole lot of difference. Can you say that Dawson's edge is because of baserunning and not hitting? Can you say that Rickey doesn't have more baserunning triples then Ryne? Can you prove that Andre's edge is because of his skill and not his stadium?
Other great baserunners of the modern era didn't have Rickey's skillset.
If Rickey played in Ty's era he would have many more triples, if Ty played in Rickey's era he would have many less triples.
Willie Wilson and Rickey Henderson are two different types of hitters. Rickey has more in common with the Giambi types then to the Willie Wilson type as far as hitting goes. Rickey had a postage stamp size strikezone and he wouldn't go out of it for nothing. Willie Wilson would swing at anything just to make contact, whereas Rickey would only swing at a ball in his zone. Consequently Willie got the dribblers while Rickey got the homers, a few more doubles, and the walks.
No matter what Rickey does he will never be as fast as Willie Wilson. He can be quicker and I believe he was but he will never equal Willie's speed. Getting to third on a hit is about 95% hit location and speed. Neither is a baserunning skill.
If someone wants to say Willie or Dykstra or Samuel was faster then Rickey you will get no argument out of me. Rickey wasn't an elite speedy guy, but looking at triples doesn't prove or disprove that he had lots or not a lot of baserunning skill.
And I don't see how that's terribly controversial. Whether it's because of the era, or his hitting style* or some other factor, the numbers don't indicate that Rickey stretched a lot of singles into doubles, or doubles into triples or ground balls into infield hits or that he reached on a lot of errors in a career that encompassed almost 11,000 at bats (I specifically noted at bats rather than PA because his walks shouldn't be held against him). It isn't necessarily a criticism (though it could be). Just a fact.
Craig Biggio, a slower player than Rickey, in an almost identical number of at bats, had six fewer career homers and 158 more doubles. Now park effects may account for a handful of those, but I doubt it's accounting for all of them. What is? I don't know. But I do know that for all Rickey's speed and baserunning acumen, it didn't manifest much when he struck the ball.
I'm not making this about that. I responded to your posts directly. My last post was a copy and paste job from another thread on another site from several years back that looked into his numbers.
I said, that for all his speed on the paths, Rickey didn't really put it to great use in the batter's box.
And you still haven't shown how seasonal numbers show that.
I specifically noted at bats rather than PA because his walks shouldn't be held against him
And I specifically noted that Rickey got less AB per season.
I don't know. But I do know that for all Rickey's speed and baserunning acumen, it didn't manifest much when he struck the ball.
And again, how do you know that? How do you know how many of his singles, doubles, and triples are because of his speed? What if every single one of them is?
Rickey hit 21.3 doubles per 500 AB at home for his career and 25.1 doubles on the road per 500 AB. That is his entire career.
Craig hit 33.3 doubles per 500 AB at home and 28.1 doubles per 500 AB on the road.
Craig played in a league and era that hit slightly more doubles than Rickey's league and era so the difference between their road double rates comes to about 2 doubles per 500 AB which since Rickey, on average, had less than 500 AB per season and Biggio, on average, had more than 500 AB per season can make the difference seem even larger than it really is.
Well, if you remove Ichiro from the league he'd have 8.
I was always under the impression that Rickey preferred to stop and then steal the extra base than stretch the single to a double or the double to a triple. I think he was so confident in his ability to steal the base that he figured that if there was any chance of his getting thrown out to stretch the hit, it wasn't worth it, since he'd just steal in a couple of pitches later anyway.
I'm impressed that this got left alone. You guys are all more mature than I am.
He's playing in the Midwest League (Low A) so I wouldn't look for him before late 2014 at the earliest.
But considering he played forever, he still amassed a ton of at bats.
I'm sure his speed played a role in some of them. But if he was putting his considerable speed to great use, we should be able to see evidence of it somewhere. He's 22nd all-time in hits, but 47th in doubles and not on the triples career leaderboard, trailing many righthanded hitters of his general era who were both much slower (Jim Rice, Dwight Evans, Sandberg, for example) and had considerably fewer at bats. He didn't leg out a terribly high number of infield hits, nor is his ROE total overly impressive. If he was really putting his speed to great use in the batter's box, it should be apparent somewhere. Anywhere.
Going back to Biggio, who I think we can probably state is not as fast as Rickey. In a near identical number of career at bats (slightly fewer, and he drops a little bit further if you subtract strikeouts), Biggio had substantially more doubles (668-510), slightly more ROE (173-160), and massively more infield hits (627-236). Rickey gets him on triples (66-55, though neither guy is a big triple guy). Quite a bit of overlap in era. Same handedness. Same number of times putting the ball in play. In most every way that a player could use his speed in the batter's box, Biggio ended up with better outcomes. Does that mean Rickey never turned a single into a double or legged out an infield hit? Of course not. It just was never a big part of his game.
EDIT: I mean, I guess in theory everybody is moved down the defensive spectrum because it increases their value. But I mean in a case where a player is perfectly capable of handling a position in the majors, but could be outstanding at a less challenging one.
Yes he did, at the "forever" stage of his career. Despite the fact that Rickey played "forever" he only amassed about 90 more AB than Craig.
I'm sure his speed played a role in some of them. But if he was putting his considerable speed to great use, we should be able to see evidence of it somewhere. He's 22nd all-time in hits, but 47th in doubles and not on the triples career leaderboard, trailing many righthanded hitters of his general era who were both much slower (Jim Rice, Dwight Evans, Sandberg, for example) and had considerably fewer at bats. He didn't leg out a terribly high number of infield hits, nor is his ROE total overly impressive. If he was really putting his speed to great use in the batter's box, it should be apparent somewhere. Anywhere.
From my post:
"
By the way when Molitor got his 13 triples to tie for lead league he had 665 AB. When Ryne Sandberg got 19 to tie for the lead league he had 636 AB. When Dawson led the league, well, he never did, but when he was hitting triples he was getting over 600 AB. When Yount did it he had 578 AB and 621 AB. Rickey went over 600 once and only went over 500 8 other times in his 25 seasons. That generally happens when you walk a lot and miss a good chunk of games every year.
The 4 names you mention have one other thing in common besides hitting those triples and that is not wanting to take a walk."
How many chances for ROE did he have? How did that compare to other players? How many chances for an infield hit did he have? How did that compare to other players?
From 1988 to his retirement Rickey had a .69 GB/FB ratio. Craig for his career had a .82.
As noted, this dude has long been considered a very good prospect - which the Gathrights, Nixons, and Sneads of the world cannot claim. Don't think he'll stick at short - center probably makes the most sense given the presence of Phillips and Hamilton's incredible speed*, but it has been suggested that he could be a gold glove caliber second baseman (and where his iffy arm and low slot wouldn't be such a big deal) and he did fine there with Dayton, so I wouldn't rule that out either.
* On the 20-80 scale, his speed is, what, a 95 (were that it weren't capped)?
EDIT: So, you could argue I've understated his speed. The minor league baseball analyst grades a 4.2 home to first time as 50 speed (for a lefty/switch hitter), with each tenth of a second representing a 10 point bump - thus, a 3.9 gets you an 80. Hamilton runs a 3.6.
The problem is, if he's not racking up infield hits or ROEs, then he should be compiling more doubles. If he's hitting more likely to hit the ball into the outfield, then why is Biggio killing him in doubles?
But ultimately, it doesn't matter. If he's hitting fewer ground balls and getting fewer chances to reach on errors or infield hits (or hitting fewer would-be doubles or triples) because that's the way he hits, that only confirms what I've been saying. He didn't put his speed to great use in the batter's box.
If Mark Reynolds were the fastest man in baseball, I'd still say he wasn't putting his speed to good use in the batter's box.
If he's hitting more likely to hit the ball into the outfield, then why is Biggio killing him in doubles?
The biggest difference between Craig and Rickey was their home park.
If Mark Reynolds were the fastest man in baseball, I'd still say he wasn't putting his speed to good use in the batter's box.
And if Babe Ruth was one of the fastest men in baseball should he have put the ball on the ground more?
You could say that Rickey Henderson was just too good of a hitter to get a lot of use out of his speed out of the batter's box, which I think is what #49 is getting at.
It wasn't big enough to make up a gap that damn big.
Where in the hell have I said that Rickey should have done things differently? This has never been about how valuable it is to employ his speed as a batter. It was a simple statement: Rickey didn't use his speed to great effect in the batter's box. I said it because it's true, no other reason.
Exactly, though I'm not sure why I need to phrase it to McCoy's liking (if that's even possible).
Hey, Rickey stop hitting all those homers, taking walks, and hitting doubles. You should be legging out singles and stretching them as well since you have all those stolen bases. But I have no proof that you didn't do that all that well but hey I looked at some career numbers of yours and, well, I just think you should have done that.
You're wasting your time, SoSH U.
Jeff Kent, Ken Boyer, Ken Keltner, Frank Robinson, Ryne Sandburg, Barry Larkin ...
Rickey is 433rd all time, despite being #10 all time in AB's and clearly one of the fastest, most intelligent base-runners in the game. I mean no disrespect for Rickey, but I don't think he was exactly ever thinking three when he came out of the box.
Probably as close as anyone will ever get to a mea culpa from you. I'll take it.
As I said way back at the beginning:
How many is he supposed to hit?
Because we know speed didn't factor into any of his singles, doubles, or triples?
You presented virtually nothing concrete and I have questioned your assumption because you have presented virtually nothing on it. I'm supposed to say I'm sorry for that? I do not know whether or not Rickey was a speed demon who wasted that speed in the batters box. I haven't stated the he didn't waste his speed.
Jeff Kent, Ken Boyer, Ken Keltner, Frank Robinson, Ryne Sandburg, Barry Larkin ...
Rickey is 433rd all time, despite being #10 all time in AB's and clearly one of the fastest, most intelligent base-runners in the game. I mean no disrespect for Rickey, but I don't think he was exactly ever thinking three when he came out of the box.
Rickey had 66 triples. Jeff Kent had 47 triples.
Gaah. Sorry. That list started out as fewer triples in a season. That's my mistake.
-- Hit the ball hard
-- Hit lots of line drives
-- Hit the ball hard in a ballpark with a spacious outfield, so the outfielders play you deep, and be fast and aggressive
-- Have a home park with a short field and a high wall
-- Hit for high average
I only mentioned being fast once, and that as part of a larger point. And who are some guys you associate with doubles? Hal McRae, Wade Boggs, Edgar Martinez, Albert Belle. That's not a list of guys selected for speed.
How to hit lots of triples:
-- Have a home park with a spacious outfield and artificial turf
-- Be left handed (or switch)
-- Have a home park with an odd nook or deep spot or something about the walls that causes odd bounces
-- Be fast
-- Hit the ball softly, most of the time, so the outfielders play you shallow, and be fast
One could very easily be a hitter with high triples and low doubles, with that last line as the prototype: someone who brings the outfield in, so that he gets a triple when he hits it past them. I think of Brett Butler as the type specimen of this. Or for a more extreme case, Deion Sanders. Sanders was certainly very fast, and he once had more triples than doubles in a season.
There's not a lot of overlap between the lots of doubles and lots of triples types. There was George Brett - left handed, reasonably mobile, a hard-hitting line drive hitter in a large artificial turf park.
Rickey was right handed, played mostly in Oakland which had a relatively small outfield and natural grass, hit the ball hard, and was more of a fly ball hitter than a line drive hitter. Other than the fact that he was fast, that's none of the other attributes for the doubles list or the triples list.
The notion that Rickey, or anyone else, made a habit of intentionally stopping at second in order to steal more bases is patently absurd.
Jesus Christ, you guys.
This is so weird! It's like me writing, "My son, you guys."
Speed is fourth? Really? You also omitted "busting your ass out of the batter's box on deep fly balls". Lots of triples are near home runs that hit off the wall and bounce away. Ricky watched whenever he hit one a long way, as was commented on by his detractors throughout his career. Bonds probably holds the all-time record for triples lost while watching the ball hit high off the wall.
When I call him by his full name, Jesus H Christ, he knows he's in trouble.
Rickey had 283 doubles in 5642 road at bats
Biggio had 303 doubles in 5395 road at bats
During Biggio's career league average was 30 per 600 at bats (about 31.5 if you exclude pitchers)
During Rickey's career league average was 29 per 600 at bats
any advantage that Biggio had in hitting doubles was very slight after adjusting for park and era, perhaps on the order of one double every 30.
Not a big deal.)
(of course since he lead the league 3 times peaking out at 56, Biggio *looks* like a doubles machine)
There was that speculation when he was playing, yes.
Henderson just never seemed to hit the ball down the rightfield line and into the corner, Reyes OTOH does that A LOT.
Brett Butler had no power to speak of, and yet was a triples machine (he was likely faster than Rickey BTW, Butler CS totals are high because, among other things, he was picked off an ungodly number of times- and ended up being thrown out by the 1b at second- that's pick off but gets recorded as a CS (IMHO all pick offs should be recorded as a CS)- not nearly as good as Rickey at reading pitchers.
Rickey tended to hit a lot of deep fly balls, OFs tended to play him a step or two back, plus I think that it is true that he was not as aggressive in taking the extra base as he was in stealing bases- if I'm going to be charitable I'd say that he didn't like to make decisions "on the run" so to speak- go to 2b or stop at first, go to 3b or stop at 2B? I think his "default" was slow down and stop, not get caught short. Stealing OTOH was not a "reaction" play, it is one in which he sw himself as being in charge, making the decision what the play would be...
Simply counting road stats has always been problematic, regardless the context. Biggio dominated Rickey in home double stats, with both players performing beyond what you would expect (above and below) from the expected park rates for doubles.
But whatever the reason, Biggio was better at hitting doubles AND at the infield-based speed-affected stats (ROE, IH).
For the record, unlike some other folks here, I haven't tried to explain why Rickey didn't hit a lot of doubles (or any other types of speed-based outcomes), whether it's something unique to his hitting style, or he was stopping at first so he could steal second or not busting out of the box to protect his hammies or some combination of these and other factors. Frankly, the guy played 25 years and was one of the absolute best players I've ever seen. Whatever the reason, I'm giving Rickey the benefit of the doubt that he knew what the hell was best for Rickey.
Mine was merely an observation. That for someone as speedy as Rickey was, that particular trait wasn't a big part of his profile when he hit the ball. If others want to make value or moral judgment on that, so be it. I'm not.
The problem I have with that is that beyond just making a rather huge assumption there is nothing there that actually indicates that this observation is valid.
Simply counting road stats has always been problematic, regardless the context. Biggio dominated Rickey in home double stats, with both players performing beyond what you would expect (above and below) from the expected park rates for doubles.
Rickey performed above what you would expect in doubles at home. Oakland/NY players were at a severe disadvantage when it came to doubles because of their park and I'm also willing to bet that if we simply looked at RH hitters the tilt would be even worse.
Compared to his teammates or compared to Rickey? The fact that he hit 56 more doubles on the road than at home (and Rickey's home parks were more than just YS/Oak, of course), when most players hit better at home, isn't above what I'd expect, but I'm open to the idea I'm mistaken.
Just curious, why? (Not saying you're wrong, but what would make those parks more hostile to RH doubles than other parks)
As I said, if Rickey was putting his considerable speed to great use in the batter's
box, it should show up somewhere. I don't see anywhere that it does.
Most players hitter better at home than away if their home park isn't a severe pitchers park. Home batter hit slightly better than road batters. Thus we would expect Joe Schlob to hit better at Dodgers Stadium if it is his home park than if he comes there as a visitor. We don't or shouldn't assume Joe Schlob to have his best numbers at Dodger Stadium if it is his home park as compared to all road parks. Yes YS/Col were not his only home parks but the bulk of his career was in those parks and besides that he also played in other severe pitchers parks over his career. Shea Stadium, and Jack Murphy Stadium.
Just curious, why? (Not saying you're wrong, but what would make those parks more hostile to RH doubles than other parks)
Death Valley for starters.
As I said, if Rickey was putting his considerable speed to great use in the batter's
box, it should show up somewhere. I don't see anywhere that it does.
How do you know that his speed didn't get him 300+ doubles and 66 triples?
He played in Oakland and Yankee stadium more than any other park, both are poor parks for doubles, particularly Oakland. His third park was the Jack Murphy in SD, also poor for doubles (although not as bad as Petco)
Almost everyone who played more than 200-300 games for the A's in the 80s/90s had more 2Bs on the road than at home their Oakland years
Biggio played in the Astrodome and Enron/Minutemaid The Astrodome was a notoriously poor hitters park, but was actually rather neutral on doubles (pretty much suppressing everything else)- Minutemaid is good ark to hit doubles in.
-- Be born before 1910.
Almost all the great triples hitters ended their careers before 1940. The two career leaders after WWII are Musial and Clemente. Neither played on artificial turf, Musial was left-handed but not especially fast and neither hit the ball softly.
I'm sure his speed played a role in any number of his doubles, and most of his triples. But you can't make either of those numbers terribly monumental for a guy with his speed and his number of career at bats. XBH weren't a big part of his game, infield hits were almost insificant (too the point that I'm not sure I trust taht number on BBRef), and ROE were nice, but not jaw dropping.
It's possible that most of his doubles are the result of his extraordinary speed, but that's not a logical inference from the rest of his batting profile. 300+ speed doubles, and only 200 or so routine doubles doesn't make a lot of sense.
Sure, I can accept that as a reason why he didn't hit as many doubles at home. But I was questioning the contention that he did better hitting doubles at home than you'd expect, and that doesn't get me there.
Among the 3000-hit club members, fast as he was, I believe he is the player hitting the fewest doubles and triples per at bat.
He played in Oakland and Yankee stadium more than any other park, both are poor parks for doubles, particularly Oakland.
Was Yankee Stadium II really a poor park for doubles? The current one is, but that's not the question.
Mattingly had no trouble racking up gaudy double totals in the same era. Winfield's Yankee years are very consistent with the rest of his career for doubles.
Edit: 1/3 coke to President Harrison.
Of players hitting 3000 hits how are they listed when using walk rate?
Why would that effect per-AB rates?
1 Tris Speaker 46.6
2 Nap Lajoie 41.1
3 Stan Musial 39.6
4 George Brett 38.6
5 Paul Waner 38.4
6 Ty Cobb 38.0
7 Wade Boggs 37.8
8 Honus Wagner 37.0
9 Craig Biggio 36.9
10 Tony Gwynn 35.1
11 Cap Anson 34.0
12 Rafael Palmeiro 33.5
13 Paul Molitor 33.5
14 Carl Yastrzemski 32.3
15 Pete Rose 31.9
16 Robin Yount 31.8
17 Cal Ripken 31.3
18 Hank Aaron 30.3
19 Derek Jeter 30.0
20 Eddie Murray 29.6
21 Al Kaline 29.5
22 Dave Winfield 29.4
23 Willie Mays 28.8
24 Rod Carew 28.7
25 Lou Brock 28.2
26 Roberto Clemente 27.9
27 Rickey Henderson 27.9
28 Eddie Collins 26.4
Triples per 600 abs:
1 Ty Cobb 15.5
2 Honus Wagner 14.5
3 Tris Speaker 13.1
4 Paul Waner 12.1
5 Eddie Collins 11.3
6 Roberto Clemente 10.5
7 Nap Lajoie 10.2
8 Stan Musial 9.7
9 Cap Anson 8.3
10 Lou Brock 8.2
11 George Brett 7.9
12 Willie Mays 7.7
13 Rod Carew 7.2
14 Robin Yount 6.9
15 Paul Molitor 6.3
16 Pete Rose 5.8
17 Tony Gwynn 5.5
18 Dave Winfield 4.8
19 Hank Aaron 4.8
20 Al Kaline 4.4
21 Wade Boggs 4.0
22 Derek Jeter 3.9
23 Rickey Henderson 3.6
24 Craig Biggio 3.0
25 Carl Yastrzemski 3.0
26 Cal Ripken 2.3
27 Rafael Palmeiro 2.2
28 Eddie Murray 1.9
XBH per 600 Abs:
1 Stan Musial 75.3
2 Willie Mays 73.0
3 Hank Aaron 71.7
4 Rafael Palmeiro 68.3
5 Tris Speaker 66.6
6 George Brett 64.9
7 Ty Cobb 59.6
8 Dave Winfield 59.6
9 Eddie Murray 58.2
10 Carl Yastrzemski 57.9
11 Paul Waner 57.7
12 Al Kaline 57.7
13 Honus Wagner 57.2
14 Nap Lajoie 56.4
15 Cal Ripken 56.0
16 Craig Biggio 55.9
17 Roberto Clemente 53.7
18 Paul Molitor 52.8
19 Robin Yount 52.3
20 Wade Boggs 49.5
21 Tony Gwynn 49.3
22 Derek Jeter 48.6
23 Cap Anson 47.9
24 Rickey Henderson 47.8
25 Lou Brock 45.1
26 Pete Rose 44.4
27 Rod Carew 41.8
28 Eddie Collins 40.5
So for doubles plus triples, it is Henderson in 27th by a whisker over Murray.
BB% 2B% IBB%Rickey Henderson 1 27 21
Carl Yastrzemski 2 14 13
Wade Boggs 3 7 10
Stan Musial 4 3 18
Eddie Collins 5 28 22
Willie Mays 6 23 9
Tris Speaker 7 1 23
Rafael Palmeiro 8 12 11
Al Kaline 9 21 14
Eddie Murray 10 20 5
Paul Waner 11 5 24
Hank Aaron 12 18 3
Pete Rose 13 15 12
Dave Winfield 14 22 8
Rod Carew 15 24 7
Ty Cobb 16 6 25
George Brett 17 4 4
Craig Biggio 18 9 19
Paul Molitor 19 13 17
Derek Jeter 20 19 20
Cal Ripken 21 17 16
Cap Anson 22 11 26
Honus Wagner 23 8 27
Robin Yount 24 16 15
Tony Gwynn 25 10 2
Lou Brock 26 25 6
Roberto Clemente 27 26 1
Nap Lajoie 28 2 28
BB% 2B% IBB%
I don't see any correlation there by eyeball test.
In any case, why would BB-rate affect the 2B or 3B per AB rankings? The BB's are already excluded.
Just checking. Looking to see if guys who go up there hacking at everything are more or less inclined to get doubles than guys with patience.
Oh, OK.
EDIT: So, you could argue I've understated his speed. The minor league baseball analyst grades a 4.2 home to first time as 50 speed (for a lefty/switch hitter), with each tenth of a second representing a 10 point bump - thus, a 3.9 gets you an 80. Hamilton runs a 3.6.
I thought each 10 points was supposed to represent a standard deviation. Not that anyone other than a scout would have a database of home-to-first times, but .1 s = 10 points seems a little on the nose.
'preciate it, yo.
Discussing Rickey! is one thing, but is something as trivial as his fondness for doubles really worth being a douche over?
But, you know what they say, "SABR politics is the most vicious and bitter form of politics, because the stakes are so low."
Did you have something to add regarding Hamilton? If so, what stopped you?
The discussion about Henderson is zeroing into a discussion over SlgBIP, really. Do fast players have a higher SlgBIP? Lefties? To what degree do park effects impact them? What other characteristics to players have who hit doubles and triples at a high rate?
How about Blazin' Billy Hamilton? That way you don't reuse a nickname, which is a personal dislike of mine. YMMV.
On the nose, sure - but
1) that may well actually be a standard deviation (or .096 or .103 or...).
2) more importantly, the scale (as used) is what the scale is. I strongly suspect that the value used to represent 10 points wrt batting average is probably not truly a standard deviation, but what matters is actual usage.
Shock/93: I'd say this guy is more interesting than a rehash of what I thought was settled material, but ymmv.
Here's a question: what's more interesting - this guy's speed or Aroldis' velocity circa a year ago?
Edmundo/97: I generally agree, but I think after a century the statute of limitations runs out. I've been calling him Sliding Billly Hamilton since he was a prep and will likely continue to do so, regardless of what nickname (if any) actually sticks.
I'd like to see something that works as an obvious nod to Sliding Billy but is modified just enough so it's not direct theft, so to speak.
Oh, and I don't have an actual example of this, so somebody get on it.
And I'm tremendously excited about seeing Hamilton some day, though I don't know what the hell I could possibly add to any discussion at the moment.
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