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Friday, May 11, 2012

Glenn Stout:  Art V Science

Which do you want, Stout beer or tacos? (h/t Dayn)

I delicately wandered into this battle a few weeks ago when, in responding to a Facebook discussion Charlie Pierce was involved in on the merits of Mike Cameron versus Dwight Evans I quipped that “Baseball is an art not a science.” Moments later the esteemed Joe Posnanski and a few others gently reprimanded me, one wagging his finger and writing “They don’t keep score at the ballet, Glenn.” Of course I realized the question was not as simple as either comment decreed, so rather than throw dirt bombs back and forth over the back fence I decided to step back, analyze the structure of the disagreement and try to determine if that tells us anything about the veracity of either approach.

As I see it The problem is not whether baseball is “either/or,” but that members of the Baseball Science team and members of the Baseball Art club are actually talking about two different things. When Baseball Science espouses their view of baseball, they are not actually talking so much about the game on the field as it is played in real time, but before and after, baseball analysis. My comment in regard to art was not referring to analysis but the actual practice and act of playing, baseball in motion. That’s why Baseball Science team so often values players and events that the Baseball Art squad turns up its nose at (like J.D. Drew and BABIP) , and why Baseball Art team tends to swoon at players and occurrences Baseball Science consider unworthy of attention (such as Derek Jeter and RBIs).

Thanks to Alex Belth.

Repoz Posted: May 11, 2012 at 05:37 PM | 9 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: sabermetrics

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   1. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: May 11, 2012 at 06:33 PM (#4129635)
“They don’t keep score at the ballet, Glenn.”

0: Number of ballerinas with whom I've scored
   2. Don Malcolm Posted: May 11, 2012 at 06:45 PM (#4129645)
Repoz: Trappist Rochefort 10 or nothing, please.

Glenn Stout: Please stick to ghostwriting.

Edmundo: Don't worry, there's still time. Ballerinas get more and more desperate as they age...

   3. Edmundo got dem ol' Kozma blues again mama Posted: May 11, 2012 at 06:50 PM (#4129651)
Don, I don't see my wife picking up dancing at 56.
   4. Don Malcolm Posted: May 11, 2012 at 07:09 PM (#4129657)
Never say never!!
   5. Johnny Slick Posted: May 11, 2012 at 07:39 PM (#4129688)
WTF? Baseball is a sport. THREAD CLOSED DISCUSSION OVER
   6. cardsfanboy Posted: May 11, 2012 at 10:06 PM (#4129886)
Ultimately not a bad article, I was really afraid he was going to pull the old "you can't know if you don't play the game" argument out, but he even managed to sidestep that.

He's right on a few points about the fact that the people might be talking about different things. But he has completely missed the actual arguments going on. And I'm not really sure if it's art vs science argument so much as an analytical vs faith arguments.

Outside of maybe MGL, there isn't that many people around here who don't enjoy watching a good game, appreciate a 'unique' event like a no hitter etc. Analytics are more than capable of enjoying the game just fine. But sometimes it's like watching a movie, where the bad guy is inside the house, the victim has escaped and realizes he needs to go back inside of the house for whatever reason and when he goes inside, he doesn't turn on the lights, he doesn't grab a weapon, he sneaks in and we all know the bad guy is lying in wait. The same thing with baseball and analytics, we watch the game and see the manager make the same bone headed decision as a victim in a horror movie. Moves we know are wrong and stupid at the time when you are watching them unfold, but at the same time as a fan of the "victim" or "villain" you still watch the outcome with anticipation.

The same people who say "intentional walks are good" are the same people raising their kids to "Make sure you talk to a strangers, it makes life exciting."
   7. Jim Wisinski Posted: May 11, 2012 at 11:07 PM (#4129954)
Art Vs. Science is a really great band
   8. Jim Furtado Posted: May 12, 2012 at 07:39 AM (#4130118)
As it always has been, it's a false dichotomy.
   9. Bob Evans Posted: May 12, 2012 at 07:50 AM (#4130122)
It's not a dichotomy so much as it's an initial approach to appreciation.

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