huh, i was thinking the glare of the barry bonds indictment was going to make voters shy of mac for another year or so. i wonder how many others are going to sort of shrug and give him a vote.

+1000 points for Jeff Blair.

+500 points for voting for Tim Raines.
-501 points for voting for Mark McGwire.

Evens out pretty well, but he's still down a point.

While he gets Raines/McGwire voting points, he's got to lose a lot for actually assigning amphetamine use as part of a current era of steroid use. While we can debate whether or not amphetamines are PEDs, their existence in baseball has been documented endlessly for nearly half a century.

+1001 points for Jeff Blair.

I’ll still vote for Barry Bonds the first time he’s eligible and judge every other player of his generation without taking any involvement - rumoured or proven - with performance enhancers into question. There are enough people who believe professional athletics is all about sacrifice and blah blah blah and playing a "kid’s game" and blah blah blah.

Raines-Trammell: you know it makes sense.

Well, supporting Raines sounds pretty darn squishy. He's bowing to the knowledge of others, he's reevaluated Raines in light of stuff that's happened since Raines retired.... And what's this Gary What's His Name stuff? What's wrong with this guy?

Maybe some of the guys who will never be convinced that McGwire's walks matter will be convinced that Raines's walks matter, since the latter was a leadoff man.

I emailed Blair some pieces about Blyleven from Baseball Analysts, and although he didn't agree with the position, he was very receptive, and willing to listen to other arguments.

And what's this Gary What's His Name stuff? What's wrong with this guy?

If I remember correctly, a year or two before Carter got into the Hall, Blair was on the radio discussing his HoF picks, and he mentioned how he would never vote for Carter. Apparently, it had something to do with Carter treating him in what Blair felt was both an extremely rude and unprofessional manner. I don't remember the exact details of what happened, but it was enough to put Blair off Carter for good.

Given that Carter also seemed to like to play up the good guy, team leader schtick, I could see how this would bother Blair.

Also, even though I disagree with Blair on his reaction, with respect to the HoF voting for Carter, I could understand his position.

I think Blair is the best Canadian baseball writer right now (aside from Brattain of course)

But still, he's a reasonable guy (unless he's talking about A.J. Burnett) and seems like a guy who's just a fan of baseball and loves being around the game. It's a refreshing departure from a lot of newspaper guys linked to here.

But still, he's a reasonable guy (unless he's talking about A.J. Burnett) and seems like a guy who's just a fan of baseball and loves being around the game. It's a refreshing departure from a lot of newspaper guys linked to here.

If it makes any difference, I scheduled a service appointment today just to get Cablevision to correct a problem with my ability to DVR winter league baseball.

In short, kittenwar.com is at best, a partial solution to no baseball for me.

I'm not entirely sure what "Cablevision", "DVR" and "kittenwar.com" are, but I think I get the gist of the message!

My apologies if I was far too broad in my aspersions. I was referring to the all to frequent Conlin/Plascke type stuff that gets linked here. Clearly anyone who regularly posts on Primer shouldn't have to defend their obsession with baseball, my apologies again.

On a totally unrelated note, I guess with all this talk of writing and my use of "gist"...does anyone know where the phrase, "quicker than you can say Jack Robinson" comes from? I always assumed it was a hip American phrase from the 30s, or possibly starting later, related to Jackie Robinson in some vague way. But I just read it in Hannah Mores "Village Politics" from 1793.

My apologies if I was far too broad in my aspersions. I was referring to the all to frequent Conlin/Plascke type stuff that gets linked here. Clearly anyone who regularly posts on Primer shouldn't have to defend their obsession with baseball, my apologies again.

I wasn't actually offended. I don't care for the baseball writers who hate baseball, either. I'm surprised how many of them there are- luckily, in my experience, there's been a healthy mix of the other.

One of my favorite moments from 2007 was watching Marty Noble work the Mets clubhouse after everybody else had gone home, getting little bits for an extra feature story from Aaron Heilman and David Wright. I was waiting for Wright, and it was amazing to see a guy, 40 years into it, and why he's one of the best baseball writers around.

Now if you'll excuse me, I have a Baseball Mogul team to build.

No love for Blyleven?

I am a bit confused. Guys of Raines' "ilk" -- not sure who else he sees in Raines' ilk -- will be re-evaluated because most everyone was on steroids. My best guess is he's saying that Raines gets boosted because although fast guys are less valuable in a slugging game, at least they were clean (which is quite a leap of faith).

But although he thinks most of what he's seen the last 10 years is steroid-driven, he's going to give Bonds and McGwire (2 of the 3 most amazing of the last 10 years with Sosa) the benefit of the doubt?

And "not as big a tool as Palmeiro" is a weak criterion for the HoF. :-)

On a totally unrelated note, I guess with all this talk of writing and my use of "gist"...does anyone know where the phrase, "quicker than you can say Jack Robinson" comes from? I always assumed it was a hip American phrase from the 30s, or possibly starting later, related to Jackie Robinson in some vague way. But I just read it in Hannah Mores "Village Politics" from 1793.

From wikipedia:

Between 1660 and 1679 the Officer Commanding the Tower of London was one Sir John Robinson. It may be that the speed of beheading with an axe, something regularly done in the Tower at that time, may be the basis, Jack being a well known form of John. Another version is that Sir John (Jack) Robinson, the Constable of the Tower of London, held at the same time a judiciary appointment in the nearby City of London, and could and did condemn a felon in the City, then have him transported to the Tower where he commanded the execution, the whole process being done 'faster than you can say Jack Robinson'.

There are enough people who believe professional athletics is all about sacrifice...

If you truly believe that steriods are dangerous to your health, then isn't taking them to improve the life of your family a higher sacrifice than taking 20 minutes extra batting practice.

best guess is he's saying that Raines gets boosted because although fast guys are less valuable in a slugging game, at least they were clean

Or maybe, since Raines notably wasn't clean of cocaine, he now gets a pass for that given the steroid use of so many since?

If I had a vote, FWIW, this would be my rankings (and I wish that there WERE rankings, i.e., a first place vote counting 10, second place vote 9,...10th place vote 1).

1. Tim Raines
2. Goose Gossage
3. Bert Blyleven
4. Tommy John
5. Lee Smith
6. Andre Dawson
7. Dale Murphy
8. Alan Trammell
9. Jim Rice
10.Mark McGwire

I like Parker, Mattingly, and even Concepcion, but there are only 10 spots. I think McGwire has the credentials, so no point monkeying with him. Admittedly I took away some "ethical" points from McGwire, and by the same token added some for Murphy. As far as Raines drug problem, I see no difference between that and the drinking issues of Mantle, Alexander,Waner, and many others, and several have already mentioned that Molitor had the same issue and sailed in on the first ballot.

Don't blame me, I voted for Kodos.

Hard not to like this Blair guy.

Maybe some of the guys who will never be convinced that McGwire's walks matter will be convinced that Raines's walks matter, since the latter was a leadoff man.

base-cloggers, every Man Jack of them

Raines - yes
McGwire - yes
Gossage - no
Rice - no

4 for 4 Mr. Blair!

There are five other guys I think should go in along with Raines and McGwire though. (Bert, Andre, Dale, Dave, Alan)

"Is he the biggest idiot ever?"

What, exactly, is wrong with the point that he's making in your quoted passage? Are you trying to argue that Palmeiro was smart to shoot off his mouth about being innocent, or that McGwire was wrong in deciding not to perjure himself?

Blair didn't vote for Sutter iirc, so not voting for Gossage makes sense. Anyone who was silly enough to vote for Sutter but not Gossage should not be voting imo. To my way of thinking the spread from Sutter to Gossage to Fingers isn't enough to vote one in without the others (although I see Sutter as the weakest of the 3) as they were the big 3 of the first 'save' era for closers. Eck is the bridge from that era to the current one of Rivera & Hoffman (over 500 saves seems safe as an automatic in). Mix them with the first reliever in the HOF, Hoyt Wilhelm, and you have enough closers in the HOF for now. In about 10 years we'll have a good idea of who from the current crop stands out. Holding off on anyone outside of Wilhelm & Eck until Rivera/Hoffman get there is a reasonable stand as well. But going for Sutter or Fingers and not Goose seems wrong to me.

Congratulations to Jeff Blair for re-examining his position with respect to Tim Raines.
Blyleven and Trammell are the other two most worthy, and there are several other good choices.

I'm not here to talk about the past.

We'll quote you on that. 8-)

they were the big 3 of the first 'save' era for closers.

Er...that really does leave out a lot of very good relievers, e.g., Kent Tekulve, Dan Quisenberry (especially), Jeff Reardon; possibly also Sparky Lyle and Mike Marshall depending on where you choose to set the cutoff.

When listing a 'big 3' or 'big 10' or whatever I tend to talk about the ones viewed at the time, and in retrospect, as being the best of the era. Tekulve never was in the ballpark, Reardon was good but (while holding the save record briefly) not ever seen as a HOF'er (and I was an Expo fan then), Lyle lost his job as a closer to Goose when both were near their peaks so that kind of closes that talk, Marshall was very good but again not a HOF level of good. Quisenberry is the big question mark but at the time baseball people (ie: non-Bill James group) never saw him as the best (largely due to the sidearm vs 95 mph fastball stuff) and his career as a closer was just too short (shy of 250 saves, just 6 1/2 seasons as a closer) to make it.

Sutter shouldn't be in yet, if at all, due to short career and having Goose & Fingers being viewed as better than him at the time and by various statistical measures (such as 700-800 more innings at very high levels of play). Quiz should probably be in before Sutter but no way would you get the writers to see that, nor any version of the Vet committee unless Bill James takes it over (not going to happen).