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Wednesday, August 22, 2018

Gordo: Playoff race is all about pitching, and Cardinals have it in abundance | Jeff Gordon | stltoday.com

Anyone else remember people saying the Nationals *and* Cardinals seasons were over at the All Star break?

Jim Furtado Posted: August 22, 2018 at 09:29 AM | 14 comment(s) Login to Bookmark
  Tags: cardinals

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   1. salvomania Posted: August 22, 2018 at 11:20 AM (#5731596)
Anyone else remember people saying the Nationals *and* Cardinals seasons were over at the All Star break?

That was when the Cardinals fired Matheny. Had they not done so the Cardinals' season would have been over.
   2. phredbird Posted: August 22, 2018 at 04:25 PM (#5731831)

paging cfb ...

i'm just an observer, but i think that's a little harsh. the team has lifted it's level of play as a group -- you really are going to credit the managerial change for that?
   3. cardsfanboy Posted: August 22, 2018 at 04:37 PM (#5731838)
i'm just an observer, but i think that's a little harsh. the team has lifted it's level of play as a group -- you really are going to credit the managerial change for that?


The team is playing to their ability, whether it's a managerial change or not, they are basically doing what they didn't before, which is have 4-7 guys playing well at the same time instead of 2-3 guys that they had earlier this season. It's not like Ozuna didn't have a good weeks/month under Matheny, or Yadier or Carpenter or Martinez or since departed Pham or the pitchers etc. It's just that they are timing playing well at the same time, combined with dropping a few things off the roster that was dragging the team down(Holland most notably, but Fowler's injury gave starting time to Bader and allowed a move of Martinez to the outfield---note I don't think the first base experiment is over though) and bringing up stud minor league starting pitchers to work the bullpen, instead of rehashed has beens that haven't been performing. It was basically a top down change in how things were being run, instead of insisting that the manager has to use the high priced players that the front office got, and instead of insisting on not bringing up young stud pitchers, and instead forcing the manager to continue slogging out the same two over worked guys who didn't suck because we had no one else in the pen pitching worth a crap.

It also helped that the Cardinals really haven't faced many good pitchers in the past three weeks...


This bs that people are pulling about the team playing different or with more energy doesn't really seem to make much sense, the Cardinals already had the most walk off wins in baseball before Shildt, were among the best teams at comebacks, and had very few, games that they didn't at least have the tying run at the plate sometime from the 7th inning or later. The Conga line thing they were doing, which is at least a proxy for positive vibes and energy in the clubhouse, happened during Matheny's time there. But there is also a real possibility that Matheny lost the clubhouse, and if that was the case, then a change had to be made, but I'm not a fan of the change happening when it did. A Matheny managed Cardinal team has never posted a losing month in July, August or September, which to me, is a pretty good indication that he figures out the right puzzle pieces to put in during the second half of the season, but he is giving guys a legitimate long leash to truly establish whether they are sucking because they suck, or sucking because of sample size issues.
   4. The Duke Posted: August 22, 2018 at 04:41 PM (#5731840)
Matheny was a terrible manager. They underachieved every year he was managing. Now they’ve hired a competent field general and the team has taken off. Schildt isn’t good or great. He’s just not terrible.

Could it all be random variation - yes. But that’s the argument that maybe you apologists will use. No one else thinks that at this point.
   5. cardsfanboy Posted: August 22, 2018 at 05:06 PM (#5731851)
Matheny was a terrible manager. They underachieved every year he was managing.


There is literally no evidence to support that point of view.
   6. Perry Posted: August 22, 2018 at 08:09 PM (#5731934)
bringing up stud minor league starting pitchers to work the bullpen, instead of rehashed has beens that haven't been performing.


They'd brought a couple of them up earlier -- Gomber and I think Poncedeleon -- and Matheny literally wouldn't use them, he kept running Lyons and Holland and Cecil out there.
   7. McCoy Posted: August 22, 2018 at 08:47 PM (#5731958)
There is literally no evidence to support that point of view.

Well, did they win the world series every year? Hmmmm?
   8. cardsfanboy Posted: August 22, 2018 at 09:03 PM (#5731966)

They'd brought a couple of them up earlier -- Gomber and I think Poncedeleon -- and Matheny literally wouldn't use them, he kept running Lyons and Holland and Cecil out there.


he was told to run Holland and Cecil out there, that is the expectation of the manager from the front office for any acquisition that they make. To blame that on Matheny is ridiculous. And neither of Poncedeleon or Gomber were on the roster enough days to get an idea of how he would have used them. He had no problems using young studs in the past (Hicks of course being the most recent)

Well, did they win the world series every year? Hmmmm?


True, and of course since we are talking to Perry, he also didn't drive the team to a last place finish like his god Whiney Herzog did, or consistently take a playoff team one year and drive them to the grounds with bullpen and roster mismanagement like Herzog did half the time in St Louis... All Matheny did was win, month after month, year after year.
   9. Perry Posted: August 22, 2018 at 10:24 PM (#5732018)
since we are talking to Perry, he also didn't drive the team to a last place finish like his god Whiney Herzog did


Where did you get that idea? I thought he was a good manager and he certainly got some good results, but he was far from perfect. Whiney's actually a good description of how he acted during the WS in 1985 (especially after game 6) and 1987, although I do think you use it ad nauseam.

Edited for spelling.
   10. phredbird Posted: August 23, 2018 at 05:30 PM (#5732514)

hug it out, guys, hug it out.

cfb, i think the second part of your comment in 8 should have been directed at Duke, who i don't think is really being fair at all.

mccoy's sarcasm is on point, and nicely illustrates the entitlement anger of a certain type of cardinal fan who keeps hoping mccarver and gibson and, oh, i don't know, willie mcgee will drink some jamba juice and come back to life. that wouldn't bother me, i was 12 in 1967 and boy if mccarver was playing, we wouldn't have to hear him in the booth.

i really think the latest malaise among cardinal fans centers around the fact that we lost a WS in 13 to a lesser team, and then we had a 100-team dynamo in 15 and managed to blow that in the NLDS.

now the core of the team has gotten older, and that's matheny's fault? huh.
   11. cardsfanboy Posted: August 23, 2018 at 06:18 PM (#5732529)
cfb, i think the second part of your comment in 8 should have been directed at Duke, who i don't think is really being fair at all.


probably, I'm horrible at remembering who is who on here.
   12. cardsfanboy Posted: August 23, 2018 at 06:23 PM (#5732534)
although I do think you use it ad nauseam.


Habit, I use the word "Mess" to describe the Mets out of habit also. I'm lazy at times. The funny thing is that I do think Herzog was a good manager, and probably the third best Cardinal manager in my lifetime, behind obviously TLR and also Matheny. (although I could be convinced he was almost as good as Matheny, but it's hard for me to see how a guy who posted below .500 record with pretty much the same team he had the year before that won 90+ games, every time he managed to win 90 games, but for some reason gets a pass by the fans for his horrific managing every other season, is better than a guy who only posts losing months in May and June.)
   13. The Duke Posted: August 23, 2018 at 10:11 PM (#5732668)
Matheny completely choked in 2012 NLCS. Should have won the whole enchilada in 2013. Loses again to the giants in the 2014 NLCS. Bochy completely outmanages him in 2012 and 2014. Had a great team in 2015 and goes nowhere. Then we enter the wilderness years (2016-2018) where every game looks like the game before it. Bad tactical managing, bad base running , bad defense, horrible bullpen usage. Cards continue to field highly talented and paid teams this whole time.

Is any of this the GMs fault? IMO, no. Mo repeatedly upgraded team when needed and spent a lot of time getting rid of bad players that Matheny refused to stop playing ( Allen Craig anyone?)

Bottom line is he was given great talent and squandered several opportunities To win a World Series. When the talent wasn’t as superior he was exposed for being a terrible tactical manager.

2 months of a new basically average manager and they are a COMPLETELY different team. All the same players - Matheny had access to all of these guys and didn’t use them well.

Bochy seized the day and did what Matheny couldn’t. I stand by my comment - they underachieved every year he was manager
   14. SoSH U at work Posted: August 24, 2018 at 10:07 AM (#5732835)
i really think the latest malaise among cardinal fans centers around the fact that we lost a WS in 13 to a lesser team,


Huh? The 97-win (101-pyth) Cards were a better team than the 97-win (100-pyth) Sox from the better league and the sport's best division, by far. And, in the World Series, the Sox almost doubled your run total.


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